I would like to see a fixed spread in all modes and a slight dmg buff in TDM (dont know about CTF as i never play it). hard to judge without getting a feel for it with a new spread

cpm style pls !

randomness is a good thing...

I really opposed to having it act differently in different modes, even though it sound like a good idea at first.

For one thing it will feel a bit "weird" changing from one mode to the other. Secondly, after it is done, I'd expect there to be more complaints about balance rather than less.
Because one that "barrier" has been broken, people will start demanding a little tweak for that gun in that mode and so on. It would never end.

haven''t this been done before in cpma? mg nerf in TDM or what ever it was?

mg was the same in every mode in cpm, it was 5 dmg but because players move faster and the armour were strong it felt alot weaker

q3/osp u had 7 dmg mg in everything cept tdm which was 5 dmg

and it was still too strong in tdm :/

blame armour

"people will start demanding a little tweak for that gun in that mode and so on. It would never end"
I don't see the problem here
people will complain endless abt the SG anyway

"that gun in that mode" was meant to say that some people will find something to nag about every gun in every mode.

I see but I don't think this is a solid enough argument not to )
based on this asumption mods like osp and other would have never exist ( abit far off argument I know)

CPM style but with 20 pellets

Q3 cpm style for the fucking win!

cpm style

cpm one is only way to go, why have more random stuff than we need to?

cpm style

Noooo, make the spread non-random. :(

Uniform spread and possibly a bit wider spread than it is now. Maybe it's just the randomness bugging me, maybe it's the too tight spread, but some mid-range shots deal way too much damage.

as i said earlier: nerf every bullet by 1, increase the radius with some more bullets so that overall dmg stays the same/bit lower

Keep it as it is: 0%

esr united afterall? :D

of course not :D

Cpm spread for me please, it stops the med-long range abuse and allows for consistency.

Someone said somewhere that id is agaisnt using a cpm like spread pattern? If this is true, why?

Probably because it allows expereinced players to lock down newer players more easily.

its happening with all new games like sf4, they make the majority of things easier to do so old school players can't dominate as easily.

and that's why Jamerio is utter shit at sf even tho he's been playing it for 10 years.

That's a bit harsh. He does have a 70% use rating on one of the characters.

poll is obsolete
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2014843#pid2014843

Yes, because some vague statement from someone who doesn't develop the game is an indication that the issue with the overpowered shotty is going to be solved entirely.

---> http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2015297#pid2015297

Sync has yet to really specify anything on what's been changed, and "trust me on this one, it's going to be fixed" isn't good enough for me to be convinced at least.

.

I agree that some change is needed -- some changes have already been made in fact and are currently in testing.

But, I thought it would be worth it to the discussion if everyone was using better pictures of the QL shotgun spread.

The best way to get a good image of the actual spread is to do the following:

devmap <whatever>
give all
weapon_reload_sg 50

Then fire the sg in a short burst, preferably at a picmipped wall. You'll see that there isn't much randomness involved. The QL spread consists of 3 concentric circles with 6, 6, and 8 pellets per ring (inner, middle, outer).

We are however most likely doing away from any real randomness despite me making note of the fact that we have very little. --> http://www.donniedomino.com/images/shot0027.jpg

i really like the sg how it is, although maybe overpowered when it comes to tdm.
but i also agree with becks to never change stuff between gamemodes. it has to be the same throught quake imo

devmap <whatever>
give all
weapon_reload_GL 1

"it has to be the same throught quake imo"

That just doesnt work. Duel weapon balance just hurts TDM gameplay.

Duel lives from having every weapon serve a different purpose with most of them being strong in certain situations.
This may also be true for TDM but to a lot lesser degree. TDM needs a tiered weapon system with actual weaker and stronger weapons that are worth fighting for as a team otherwise TDM becomes an FFA mess if you can just pick up the next best gun and rape someone who just took RA. It doesn't help either that armor is paper thin in this game, RA in qw for example takes 75% of the dmg and gives you 200 when you pick it up. This gives you an actual reason to fight for RA and you get rewarded with having control over it but im not saying to go all the way and use qw 1-1 in ql since that wouldnt work due to other differences in the games. It would still be the right direction tho.

MG btw has been a problem for tdm for even longer than SG, shouldn't be forgotten either.

since you bring up the qw example, imo it shows that it is possible to have a weapon balance that works both in tdm and duel.

qw duel is horrible :D

I'm gonna leave this discussion to Ake Vader :D

he's got a point though, serious qw duel can be boring as fuck as the weapons (esp. shaft) are so strong that most attacks will result in the instant death of the attacker.

watch some dm4/dm6 when it's not reppie and griffin playing, don't even get me started on dm2 :p people are too easily impressed by aero games.

besides, we had different mg damage in different gametypes in q3, it's not actually a new thing.

the point is that after 15 years they still get more players at a LAN duel tournament than ql, so it can't be all that horrible.

only because when you have a lan with lots of tdm teams you are pretty much bound to have some of them play duel for fun ^^

qw duel is horrible

some of them play duel for fun

:o]

whats your point, horrible things can still be fun... :)

just depends on what way they are horrible in :P

Ah damn, you're right, I give up.

I completely forgot that with you guys having fun and playing games are not connected ;P

you have no idea ;/

:´(((

getting drunk is a good example.....

it's probably the most fun i ever had in quake but not exactly a good example of how weapon balance should be done (in duel).

if challenge-tv.com wasn't the most useless site in existence i'd show you some demos, when i still followed qw the qhlan duel finals were good examples iirc.

see #44 ;)

you're probably kidding but that's what i was trying to say all along... it's fun when not taken overly serious, the flaws get very obvious when it's played with money on the line.

weapon balance? in qw? rofl

trust in tourist to misinterpret a term :)

oh please do explain the weapon balance in qw.

no? trust in becks to not know wtf he's talking about.

waiting for your third reply :)

trust in becks to not have any real arguments. :)

nah my reply just remains the same.

I would add a 'lol', though :]

don't be so analogue now.

well, at least you see that slight similarity.

Of course I, again, want you to show that you actually know the term we are discussing. But don't worry I'm gonna give you more time.


On a sidenote, I find it hilarious that you still refer to that as your "biggest win". Considering, you were so adamant in your statement that changing the software would yield no improvement :P

lol

can you explain to me how limiting ammo for sg wouldn't be a good idea?

on its own that wouldn't change a thing in tdm

People usually stick to whatever game mode they enjoy the most. Even if you were to switch the way you aim is the same, just a change in damage. Why let one mode suffer that could be so much better? :< Anyway noctis is right, the mg also ruined TDM at the end of q3 due to the mass amounts of cessing.

Ask noctis or fazz if there are players who play more than one mode ;P

Even if you were to switch the way you aim is the same, just a change in damage.

imo it's less about the way to aim and more about the time when it "feels right" to use shotgun. (given you have another weapon to switch to)
I'd expect that people playing different modes will encounter situations, where they end up making a bad weapon choice simply because they played the other mode the day before.

So, at the very least this would mean a slight advantage for people who only play one mode, and I personally don't think that that would be beneficial to the future of ql.

good point about the image, although in order to get the full picture i think that there should be both, a screenshot showing 100 hits and a screenshot showing to what degree the semi random spread can still "mess up" a single shot (although i didnt wait for a worst case scenario shot here ^^).



anyway, glad to hear that you are testing out some sg changes and the fixed spread in your screen looks really well.

lool the german did a swastika

IT'S A SIGN

Was gonna make this thread myself but better that there's a poll for it.

I just want the Q3 CPM spread on it. The weapon is used so much in TDM because there's generally 2 of it on every map.

20 pellets? Are you fucking kidding me? No wonder this gun is loved so much by newbs. Nerf it to OSP/Q4 standards, problem solved.

lol.

lol @ German basement dwellers

yeah lol at them.


While discussing weapon balance of a video game O.o

You're right -- German basement dwellers are still German basement dwellers regardless of what they do unless it's going outside.

Yes, they are.

And 21-year-old Canadian morons are still 21-year-old Canadian morons no matter how much they try to look cool ;)

warsows shotgun spread is the best

actually it has its flaws can used it at a farther mid-range like on wdm2 and still chip off decent amounts of damage well imo

could just add more pellets and reduce the damage of each pellet, but i think the shape of the wsw sg spread > cpms

shape yes hate its immense range for a shot gun make s midrange kinda annoying mind you I can't dodge for shit at my 200ms to all servers

cpma sg spread/dmg would be cool with me.

I like it as it is. it brings chaos and comebacks possible with a tier2 weapon. Do we really want the camp and defensive play that rl + rg play gives? This demand is only cause some people want a slow game where they can camp "important" items without getting disturbed by the puny mg and sg "spawners".
Whats next, old hitboxes and 100 dmg rails? zzzzz

it brings only chaos, not comebacks

comebacks come when control is shifted and the team getting it can go on killing sprees without getting raped by low tier guns.

having usefull lowtier guns can shift the control much more rapid, and punish mistakes easier. Having overpowered tier 1 guns (compared to lower tiers) can lock down maps completely like we saw in early eurocups, which in my opinion brings a less entertaining match to spec. and to play.

"having usefull lowtier guns can shift the control much more rapid"

if control is shifting every 30 seconds it just means there is no control and you can just as well play ffa

I just like the fact that camping ra is not as usefull as raw fighting skill + rushing ppl before they can gather themselves.
But we all have our preferences.

yeah, mine is in tdm while yours is apparently in ffa/ca

like that is a bad thing. :>
but no i'm all for nice tdm action, which I think we have with the current quakelive setup. (could need mpov, more stats, remove old maps and other sub features before its perfect)

"useful low tier weapons" is too vague. the problem with ql sg for instance is that it isnt just useful, its useful almost all the time, irrespective of situation. u dont really have to think at all to use it, where as in cpm for instance if u had pg or sg only, they are still very very useful, but u had to think to put urself in a position to use them. charging someone with sg mindlessly only gets you killed over and over.

also i dont get why u assume having stronger armors/quad etc makes for a campier game. it will only do that if ur a stupid camper and cant time items and move tactically. as ql stands now theres practically no incentive to actually go anywhere on a map, as long as u stay together in some random area. theres little focus on anything other than positioning to do damage without taking damage urself.

anyway not going to elaborate more since this has been discussed ad infinitum, and doubtless ddk will come up with one of his long posts that explains everything (again) in excruciating detail if this discussion goes on :).

well in cpm the sg is affected by a number of factors not only by the way the pellets spread. not really a valid comparison.
and ppl are exaggerating the effect of the current sg spread, its not useful in every situation and it will not give you insta kills from any distance. And yes a sg should give you a kill if you hit 2-3 direct shots at short-mid distance.
Its like vor_ posted, a gun easy to get and usually 2 places to get it on the map, so ofc it's used alot.

god i hope you are being sarcastic

no, i want a game resembling tdm where control of areas and items is worth something. not ffa with teams where everyone can spawn near sg and go on a rampage the second he grabs it.

go play ffa if you want chaos

it brings easy-mode gameplay for people who don't like to think about their approach to the game - which is great if you don't think intelligent tactical play or strategy is important. just keep advocating the weapon which is useful in 100% of situations and is always functional no matter what.

it's not about a game being "slow" or "fast" it's about it rewarding individual skill and team coordination, you have a warped sense of what gameplay should be. it's like when people say 'quake is better than cs because it's faster' - how the hell does anyone take that justification seriously? if it's better or worse it's for many other more SPECIFIC reasons other than some abstract concept of speed. all stating that does is just reveal a severe lack of overall understanding.

you say that a perk is that it brings 'chaos', why is that better than more organisation? you know that's actually horrible for spectators to follow in comparison? and it also means the skill ceiling is lower because the parts of the thinking game are much less valuable and contribute less to overall individual/team skill.

comebacks with a tier2 weapon... you aren't aware that in tdm it's actually a high tier weapon? it actually stifles comebacks, because if your team manages to win a quad with a good attack or a series of good manoeuvres, your quad man with his puny 3x quad damage, will probably be able to take maximum of 2 shotgun blasts or sometimes just one before he dies. if THAT isn't enough to kill him, he'll probably already be getting picked away at from long range by someones mg. Quad is supposed to give your team map control for a limited period of time, people should want to run away from quad in a 1on1 fight, not try to sacrifice their life for ONE SHOT on the quad guy which stops him from being able to do anything if it lands - this is often the case right now.

"This demand is only cause some people want a slow game where they can camp "important" items without getting disturbed by puny mg and sg "spawners". Not sure really where to start with this, it's pretty incoherent. Either way, the reason people have a demand for it is because they want quake to be a game with a high skill ceiling.

the reason the mg should be nerfed as well is that a spawner shouldn't be able to have a large impact on the game, that's your punishment for dying and your killer/his teams reward (frag/control). however the armours are so weak and the mg so effective that dying isn't much of a punishment and the better team is rewarded much less.

I find tdm much more skillfull now then it ever has been. Top teams can't lock down the games against each other without playing very good, hitting high percentages, controlling items with pin point timing (including guns). And generally help each other at zone control. I find it positive that it demands insane skill to control almost any item alone, like it should be in a team game.

I mostly agree. Right now it takes amazing play to completely lock an equal team out of the map with the current weapon balance, if this is somehow made easier with nerfs to certain weapons, games will be so one-sided to the point of being not worth watching. A game where the disadvantaged team is absolutely fucked with no chance to use their weak ineffective weapons to get back in the match would be a disaster.

4k will win all matches with their 25-4 starts of each map. :P

q1? not a desaster by a long shot

I kinda agree..... this whole 'teams that have better control are not rewarded as much for their perfect play and too much randomness included' talk is not necessarily a bad thing. Like vor_ says in the end it it will just make certain teams unbeatable, in spite of TDM being more ffa which is kinda true.

TDM (and QL in general) don't have many teams involved in it, and if u take away that randomness to get back into the game for weaker teams, not many teams will continue to play and it will kill QL TDM much faster. There will be few teams that plays great TDM and thats it.

noctis is kinda right what could be better TDM, but in this case (QL) I'm not sure it would help in a long run.

id be happy with greater spread on mid and high distance.

spread randomness might be ok, its not as effective/important on short distance and pellets does not perform like mg/rg on long distance.

spread randomness might be ok

well yes, it does not matter that much close range, but whats really annoying are those mid range shots that do so much dmg because somehow 5-6 pallets hit because they were so close together. of course it needs to be tested but i think a fixed spread would already do a major part in balancing.

valid point. grouping pallets coz of weird randomess at spreading is anoying.
q3 cpm spread with each pallet acting like mg bullet (small random spread per bullet) could work.

Stevie wonder is hitting 50percent shotgun with a steering wheel.

I don't think Shotgun is the problem, the real problem is the maps. Every map is designed in such a way that assumes the Shotgun to be a low-tier low-impact weapon. The reality is the Shotgun has a significant impact in TDM, none of the weapon layouts on current maps reflect this.

I don't think that there would be anywhere near as much complaining if almost all the maps didn't contain 2 Shotguns. Is it any wonder that the majority of kills in TDM are from Shotgun, when you are almost always guaranteed that you can go and safely obtain one of the two that spawn on most maps?

Maps still seem to be designed with OSP weapon balance in mind, we're way beyond that era now as far as how strong certain weapons are.

I'd rather see a boost to the supposed higher tier weapons than nerfing Shotgun. I'd rather see cripple on the LG again (maybe with the old damage values) and 100-damage Rail, before the Shotgun gets made worse. Playing with guns that feel weak is dull and boring to me. Part of the reason that Shotgun is "overpowered" is because other weapons are absolutely underpowered.

i think you have a point when it comes to map design, but still, in the end i would rather "fix" the sg then change all maps o0 (and the random spread would still suck)

but stronger weapons? i think the weapons work just fine and with the level of aim nowadays the old value were just outdated. getting a good angle with lg will still destroy an opponent, rail is still important and every hit a noticeable blow, rockets are strong as ever. i rather feel like the armor already isnt worth that much, so giving these weapons more dmg again would be a really bad thing imho. and i think nobody wants the sg to suck, they want the sg to be useful where its supposed to be good., but leave it situational and not an all purpose weapon

Yeah the armor system is awful as well, but theres never been even a hint of hope for a change there. Ideally I'd want maps with proper weapon layouts, armor that actually protects your health-pool from damage, stronger LG/Rail. I don't see anything coming other than apparently a knee-jerk Shotgun nerf.

well yeah, the whole concept might be debatable but as you said, its not going to change drastically and hey, its still a lot of fun as it is. the sg change would just be small step but i believe that it would make the game more enjoyable so, why not do it?

this. this. this. :>

you should play qw =)

This

I always thought the point of Q3 was that all the weapons are situational and gaining advantageous positioning through tricking your opponent, or whatever it takes is how you regain control, yet shotgun is useful in almost every situation as it stands in QL (like a couple other weapons). However in Q3 the SG was perfect, it didn't have a balance issue and was just as deadly as the "top tier" (RL/RG/LG) in the correct situation.
CPMA VQ3 had overpowered shaft and rail, everyone knows that. Other than that though, it was practically perfect weapon balance-wise. So why doesn't id take a logical approach and change back to how it was, then make small changes from there. I don't understand how the QL balance got into such a mess tbh. There was already a good base to work with.
Shaft could be reduced to 7-7-7, with the same knockback and cripple effect as before, and rail could be changed back to CPMA VQ3 but with -10 damage, and maybe a little more reload time. The rest of the weapons in VQ3 are all powerful enough in their designated situations to regain control if you have a brain.

edit: MG was also overpowered in vq3, but it could be a little underpowered now, so I think that increasing its bullet spread and reducing the damage to 6 would be a good compromise, but thats just an off-the-cuff idea.

how did CPMA VQ3 overpowered the railgun?

CQ3 PG & SG better imho
If you don't like ffa in tdm - don't play dm6 & Hidden fortress 4x4

I fucking wish people played cq3 here.

i just trimmed my armpit hair, what an odd sensation!

Like always, I like it the way it is!

cpm style is far superior

Yet its a dead game. with a dead community. Go figure dummy.

i was referring to the sg

i see an old game with a small community, but not dead, it's like a small neighborhood, everybody knows everybody and we got peaceful and cool games.. I like the way it is honestly, quite fun if you enjoy the gameplay

when sg gets nerfed its super-fucking-important that quad is boosted back to 4x, since the main reason for 3x quad was everyone doing their quadruns with sg and 1 shotting everyone

no, use the fucking railgun.

people can survive quad rails, and it does happen once in a while. my point was that quad is just shit now and the obvious overpoweredness of quad+sg is gone

looks like I need a new sarcasm detector, the needle is stuck below " maybe "

use shaft, it was always 3x in q3

shaft was way better in q3, more dps and bigger hitboxes. IMO quad needs to be 4x to make it worth fighting for.

I think it's perfect in duels

since I know nothing about tdm and ctf I voted 'keep as is', I'm open to the possibility they are a problem there and I just don't know it though

That's the main problem, SG is balanced for duel but not suitable for TDM.
The game(devs, if you wish) strives for a perfect duel balanced weapons.

Different damage values across different gametypes will never happen tho, and I'm fine with that.

I still think a somewhat changed spread would do the trick, finding the *perfect* one, however, is hard.

The way sg is now it can even win vs shaft when used behind corners @ midrange, quite retarted. Voted for fixed spread.

Anyway this alone wont fix the balance, rockets need to be slowed down atleast 50ups and personally wouldnt mind 90dmg rail with longer reload time.

Slow rox result in slow boring hitscan based gameplay. I would reduce the splash damage radius and increase the knockback/pop up.

80 dmg rail is perfect. This is quake not cs!

Slower rockets would just make LG dominate midrange as it is supposed to. And about railgun, If railguns reload time would be upped by 20% and dmg by 10 it would make it worse than it is now.

LG is dominating mid range

Only with clear shots, someone using walls/cover can always rape a midrange lg with rl/sg too easily.

so true..

i dont really understand why even some experienced players like noctis have hard time understanding this..

I don't really get why some players have a hard time understanding that except making lg completely overpowered in open fights this will never change.

Well, he's right that shaft is still strongest in an open true-midrange fight, but its ridiculous that rocket and sg are strongest in close-midrange fights. For an example of what I mean, the top platform to RA on hektik, from either side the best weapon to use is rocket. I think shaft should be the dominant weapon here unless your rocket aim is insane (edit: at least from the RA side), but that's not how it is currently.
To ensure weapons are situational again, I think they have to be buffed for their specific purposes and weakened in situations they're supposed to be. RL could even have a speed increase if the splash radius is reduced enough, and this would mean that its more important to get closer-to-direct hits. Rail is meant to be a long distance weapon, but its currently used at mid range with cover and is extremely effective. To counter this you need to get close, so I believe the reload time should be increased as you suggested (2000ms), but with a damage boost to 90 or 100 so that its still strong when used carefully. Shaft is a little more complicated because I believe the fire rate should be increased, which would increase the knockback automatically when you're accurate. It would also mean being accurate is more important because you use up ammo faster. And finally, the shotgun needs a wider spread as seems obvious now. The best solution would be to have the pellets do less damage as they spread, but I'm unsure if that's possible. An alternative would be to use the CPM fixed pellet spread with a lower damage output.

again, you nailed it.

oh, why i see so much RL spam @ midrange fights then?

i don't know, mb you don't play the best players in the world

true, but just look at aero, ztn or t7... after that come and tell me is lg powerfull enought. If all maps would be like dm6, t9 or lostworld then ofc lg would be balanced... but thats not the case.

srsly?
lg is plenty powerful on those maps, maybe you pick the wrong situations or position yourself wrong

hes not happy until lg is the best weapon in every situaton on every map. when he joined ql he spent the first year flaming everyone who didnt have high lg accuracy and that its the only thing that matters :) atleast hes changed a bit, but not much

whatever then, i just feel that in those maps rail + rockets do mostly better than lg, because gameplay is a lot of peaking instead of stable fights. Dunno if just adding cripple effect would help enought.

if u take a shaft fight you are guaranteed to take damage as well. with rockets and rail you can play defensively and not take damage. this is the difference. (among many others but had to be said) - you wont see rapha taking 1v1 shaft fights with strenx because he just knows better and opts to find away to avoid it.

yes that is the core of the problem, defensive weapons have been buffed while offensive nerfed... Its not possible to force shaft fights, though its possible to force rocket and rail fights....

LG is retardedly powerful nonetheless mind you I don't recall playing quake with stable fights except when the opponent is willing to commit .

LG is fine, really.

I don't think its badly balanced it is fine but I was replying to the fact that he said stable fight as it meant constantly going head to head with LG which at least in experience barely happens except with the people who like to pull out the pummel at the same time as it seems they like head to head fights

nerf in tdm and spread to q3 cpm

old SG ftw
people complained that SG was too strong in the old days.
now with the new smaller hitboxes SG efficiency dropped down already, so it was no need to decrease its power anymore, it's just that SG big modification was made before the hitboxes modification, if I am correct
the way the SG remains now, it is weakened twice

short sentence: the damage the spread and all that sh1t like it was in september-octomber 2008, when I started playing ql