Does a new player really need new maps to become a world class competitor?

apparently

imagine you joining a quake2 tourney noctis.. playing all their maps i know you'd be shit so it's pretty much props to Dahang for fighting to be where he is.

I remember when you joined cpm and were rubbish:o)) actually aren't you still? :P

1v1 cpm22 go

Logged in to plus you.

so you are saying i tried to become one of the best cpm players?

by playing it once every few months?

playing you in warmup was one of my first cpm-experiences. i was warming up to play either lugia or Vo0 ... can't remember.
'tis a miracle i stuck with the game ...

did your anus ever return to its normal size?

haha, same here. first 1v1 noob cup, final vs hal...

but germany also kicked noctis ass in cpm nations cup :D

i remember having positive net in those games, especially on cpm4a :p

hm.. i remember winning 2:0

ZING! :D

i remember having about the same net on cpm4 as every german player combined =/

first of all, in that case, the match would've been a tie.

second of all, its also a vq3 map, so doesnt apply to this discussion seeing its about putting a player in a new environment.

other than that, i was just kidding around, im on your side as long as you start losing more to cooller :D

^^

"first of all, in that case, the match would've been a tie."

yeah true :D
i think i simply had more frags then your top scorer or smth :D

i think its not true actually...

self kill, team kills aren't accounted for.. was just a guess anyway :D

+yosen

But hes been playing for ages now not like he has just been thrown into a brand new map.

yeah... I don't by his analysis at all.

"imagine you joining a quake2 tourney after playing quake2 for a year with top players only..."

fixed that part for you, np

"imagine you joining a quake2 tourney after playing quake2 for a year with top players only and looking like you..."

fixed that part for you... np.

thx for confirming that you are still simply an idiot

Sorry to attack your physical appearance i'm just sick of reading your crappy comments that try their hardest to make everyone think you didn't practice your ass off for the past 7 years to be as good as you are now.. and players such as Dahang who haven't played quake3/live religiously as long as you.. So less of your bullshit about him not being of a higher tier then most of the top players in quakelive today.

Im not sure what comments you are reading this out from, of course i practiced q3 a ton, mostly from 2006-2008, i had a freaking 56k dial up connection up until 2006 and couldnt even play online...

Im also not trying to discredit dahang, he is damn good and has caught up to everyone in a short time... but he also played tons of quakelive to do so, probably the most out of every pro. He earned his top place, but saying that he has a disadvantage even after playing the game for over a year with only pros is quite stupid...

Quake isn't all that complicated, and if you played another quake game on a pro level before its even easier to learn a new one. All he had to do on the old maps was to learn all the angles by heart because thats the hardest part to learn (knowing where and when you can land shots) and thats what he did. And guess what, he said that himself in dubai.

then we are arguing the same point -_-

... :D

caught*

thx

Quake is about experience and quality time played more so than "natural skills" (see fatal1ty, rapha, etc). So yes it is really hard for a new player to beat the oldies on maps such as dm13, dm6, and ztn. The only way for them to become dominant is to put in a ludacrous amount of hours. DaHangs main account has 23 days worth, but it's going to be hard to catch up to guys like Cooller who treat QL like a full time job.

Cooller doesn't treat and never have treated Q3 as a full time job.

did you notice how many hours he put in before his last tournament?

haha cooller got waaay less Quake Live time then pretty much any of the top QL players. He had to put down a lot of time for Dubai because it was so short notice. If you look the top American players proflies they have tons more duel played then most top EU duelers.

USA pros have more hours... But europe pros have more fake accounts :P

Perhaps there is some truth to that though. I think the quake talent in USA focus on duel moreso because they don't have the numbers for regular tdm and ctf leagues.

they all do.

just a bit harder, start to compete a gaming after some "pro-players" already started, cuz you have to figure out the first steps by yourself, or try hard to find it from them(the players), learning by their mistakes and so on.

Nice pic!

i agree about dahang.

I lol'd when I saw the word 'chink' used. I wasn't even aware it had that meaning. i had to look it up. it's probably because that word is never used in US since it's a widely known racial slur towards chinese.

you've got to be kidding..

He's right.

how do you know, aren't you from canada? I've heard that phrase used MANY times in the US.. judge just doesn't get out much I guess :X

It's also used to refer to filling in the gaps in a log cabin for winter.

Chinking a cabin = filling in the chinks.

Seems like it would be more commonly heard in Canada than here in tropical Minnesota.

Chink is a extremely common racist term in North America. Do you honestly think Canada is THAT different?

YOU LIVE IN IGLOOS!!!!

What do you know about anything?
You're just a chink.

it's obviously a racist term.. when did I say it wasn't.. I'm talking about the other half of judge's statement

It's used quite frequently when referring to someone's weaknesses, particularly the phrase Carmac used "chinks in [someone's] armor."

You really had to look that up? :P

Is this what you mean by chink in armour?

Samurai are Japanese. ._.

Like you could tell the difference if it didn't say 'the last samurai'!

HAHA CARMAC :D

didn't cooller inspire cypher to become a pro?

cypher seems to have caught up just fine.

Cypher has been playing q3 for years.

i think he saw a demo of zero4 vs cooller at wcg 2002 and that inspired him , if memory serves me!

nice interview, seems like a nice guy! gl to him.

Timefragger: A player who is ONLY able to beat other players of potentially greater skill due to extensive play time on old maps.

so, what about the new maps right now?

or the all the new maps in Q4?

Jamerio: A player who is ONLY able to talk shit to other players of potentially greater skill due to extensive lack of keyboards or lack of skill on old maps, or any other for that matter. Also chickens out of any bet ever.

It's funny how so many people only value "skill"/"talent" and never hard work.

I already know I'm the best gamer on this site.

If you know anyone who can play ever id duel game well/trackmania/street fighter games to my standard (all tourney games), while running 3 businesses and a bafta winning career in the game industry (despite only purchasing his own pc in 2004) I would sure like to meet him. And I troll better than anyone. I encompass everything about a true gamer.

Nobody apart from a few dorks on ESR care about being good at a 10 yr old game across a handful of maps that you've been playing for the 10-15 years.

Of course you're going to be better, but the more you spread your skills, the more you'll start to realise how one dimensional many of you really are. .

Being good at games isn't about being the best, its about how good you in relation to the investment you put in.

I'm sure if I sat in my bedroom for 10 years doing little else but playing the same game, I too could beat that .1% of the gaming population I lose to.

BAFTA award-winning career? Not a troll: please elaborate?

Don't bother - he won't.

He's a self-deluded freak. Just enjoy the show.

But we know for a fact that you suck in all ID games(D3, QL, Q3, Q4) and we've never seen proof on any other games so we'll assume you suck at them, too. Also, it magically went from two businesses a month a ago into THREE businesses? your pathological lying gets more obvious every few months :) please give the names/address/websites of your businesses (we all know they don't exist).

Oh man. 27% LG. Fucking beast.

Yes becaue I have just started another one.

God it amazes me how informed you try to be yet show such flawed reasoning. Its also awesome how obsessed you are with my life because I suspect it reminds you of what a waste your is.

So how long should I have waited to start another business?
you have no idea of the business, or the model, the investment it took me to setup, or how long I have had it lined up for.

You really are quite pathetic, but what should I expect from a grown man who lives on a bankrupt volcano in the middle of nowhere. Its quite clear to see how you failed as nation with your awesome logic.

Seriously, seek help.

haha, just give us the name of the three businesses, or is it four now? :)

One is specialised, the other two are probably something anyone here can do. Perhaps not quite aswell as me, but I'm sure some of you could. It takes someone else to go out and do it, market it, make it happen though.

You're looking too much into things, running a business does not HAVE to mean head offices and a big work staff.

They're all reg'd, I pay tax, I make money from them and they're all radically different and I provide a service to the public.

If you have some additional info about what defines a business let me know. I'll probably have another 2 by this time next year.

I'll be happy to admit I'm not making much money yet, they are in their infancy, but whatever I touch, turns to gold.

If you have some additional info about what defines a business let me know.

That's great and I definitely will, but I wasn't asking about that at all.

look at this, I summarised your post in mine before you even wrote it!!! beats an imaginary bafta by a mile tbh. l33t sk1llZ.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

It's scary how accurate that is.

Jealousy will get you nowhere.

I see what you did there

1) What do you expect, I get people like you calling me a liar, saying I have lied about my life and past employment. If anything you are the one's showing those symtoms because you're telling people they are making aspects of their life up without knowing them.

Its just you're so broken you can't even see the irony of your claims. I have won a bafta by 22, so its not as if I don't have external recognition of my worth or contributuons.

2) So I'm bad person because I have ambitions of making something of myself. Perhaps if you had not wasted so much time playing videogames and talking shit on a forum you might have had your ambitions robbed.

3) In these demographics, I probably am a bit more special the averag user. I have own user level for one, I also have nearly 10 years of dev expereince, 8 of which at one of the best studios in the world. Its silly to think I'm just another user. I can go into depth you couldn't even possibly hang with. I'm not bragging, just stating a fact.

4. Maybe you're just a boring nobody and see things differently.


5. Well I have my own user level, its a self fulfilling prophecy.
This is a gaming site, no disrespct but you can't think we're equals.

6. Damn I didn't make #6.

7. Lacks empathy, oh you mean you're upset because I don't seem to listen or be bothered by a handful of nut jobs on a gaming site telling me seemingly every aspect of my life is a lie.
Oh I'm sorry, you're right, I really should treat you as equals.

8. You and some others are envious. I know that because you call me a liar so often or this and that. If you didn't see worth in what I say you would not see it as anything worth lying about.

9. This is a gaming forum, arrogance is rife around here, maybe you just give me more opportunity to be arrogant.

Lastly, all of those things could be applied to pretty much anyone, an ambitous businessman, a model, a childhood star, a sportsman, its quite laughable when you go searching for external sources to define me, when I could apply those things to everyone from the local guy at the pub, to bill gates.

Imagine you went on a website and people were telling you aspects of your life were a lie when you knew they were not.

How would you react to those people :)

I'm too qualified and too thick skin to topple. And with every insult and false accusation you dig yourself a deeper hole.

good article!

...but...

"Spart1e started very late in Quake 3 .............."

Are you sure? MobacH*ZpaarT was the best defender on q3wcp9 ever! ;p

I still started ALOT later than everyone else :P

av3k? cypher? rapha? noctis?

all been around forever?

it's not when you start playing quake, it's when you start taking it seriously with a very competitive mind set.

yeah but when did these guys taking it serriously?

other than rapha, i think everyone's being playing it seriously for years. well, i could be wrong about noctis too but av3k and cypher were beasts in Q4. they weren't winning tournaments in Q3 prior to that but they were still playing at a high level.

rofl rapha has been playing serious for a long time as well, he was a active way back in the cpl 2003 days.

nevermind

where was he during WCG, ESWC, Quakecon etc?

yeah but same time spartie was very good in q3 too if i remember. And there was no lanparty for q3. Only for q4.

Maybe iam wrong, but nevermind, no flame .. easy

LOL you freezetag NEWBIE

I used to outscore you on baseq3 ft servers dude.

:D

MobacH lololol

wasnt the "frezze tag spartie" older then the ctf one? :)

yeah he was a good freezetag player, mr 'star' hahaha

Quick reminder to ID, if new maps are really in the works please release them for q3, too. Thanks & god bless our american heroes.

btw, who did the interview?

Potentially a fascinating individual!

a few things that irk me.

the new maps argument. yes I do believe it levels the playing field out a little, bit but as proven by Q4 and now QL those that excel at the old maps also excel just as well at the new maps, better than the 'new school'. also, there are a lot of examples of newer players taking the old maps from the older players and looking good doing it.

the decade of 'experience' on old maps reasoning or that pathetic 'timefraggers' expression is pretty retarded.

I'm not going to deny experience helps a lot but there's a point where it becomes irrelevant. do you really think the way cooller played dm6 back in 2002 has any bearing on the way he or others play it now? you'll learn little bits if you're a newbie but that's about it.

as for who is considered new and who isn't, well, it's all about when you start taking the game seriously and start putting in the effort to improve etc. etc.

Consider that Dahang did not play quake3. That's what I would consider a new player. Clearly it would not be easy for someone that fresh to the game to be able to beat guys with 8 years of experience on dm13, dm6 and ztn. However, it's a different story on t7 and t9, where he is clearly one of the most dominant players.

"timefraggers" might be a poor expression, as it hints towards time being the only reason a player is good, but you can't disregard experience and time spent on each map. Clearly someone who has played a map 10x has a much greater chance of beating someone who has not played it before. The tricky part is finding out where the field levels, if it does at all. I think the clear conclusion to the debate is to replace the entire map pool once a year with brand new maps. Ensuring a level playing field for all.

Ensuring a level playing field for all.

I'm not convinced that that would be the case. Some people are better at adapting quickly while others are better at perfecting their game on a map. So if you replace the entire mappool on a yearly basis, you would probably favor the former in the first tournaments and then the others can catch up.

Therefore, I'd say replacing one map or maybe half the mappool at a time would be preferable.
(It's also better suited for the high number of good maps being made each year :P)

eswc 2003 was the best q3 competition of all times (t4, dm6 and ztn)

Well... he does excel at t7 and t9. But if we are going to make a fuss about how much practice time individuals have spent on different maps, I suspect he has spent more time than any other pros on those two maps. This is guessed from the hours spent on his account + the comment chance made in an interview that Dahang only liked to scrim on the new maps and hardly touched the old ones.

That said... I do think he is one of the most talented players. But the whole talent argument is pretty crap. All pros play lots, wins are all that matter :P

Andy,
DaHanG: 2,144 duel games
Cooller: 797 duel games

regardless to q3 experience, dahang has played way more of ql

he also has alternating caps


beeeg success

oh no way dude you changed flag, it's like when a normal person gets a haircut, i barely recognized you!

looks good on you, brings out your eyes

i haven't had a god damn haircut in 3 years

because we aint normal, we're the superpeople refered to as nerds

this is true

but now he's Super-sonic-man!

you saw what i did there didn't u :---)))))))

made me lol! [+]

double thumbs up!

haven't cooller many accounts?

afaik, no he created "rekkthxbye" or some and SyncError just changed the nickname to "Cooller" which was already taken when he created his account.

.

what? over 2000? that can't be right!

true.

this.

dahang would need over 9,000 games to go super saiyan, we all know this to be true.

Someone photoshop/paint a pic of dahang going super saiyan plzkthxbye

It is all about practicing with the best competition available. This whole "experience" argument is over used and in reality, is not all that important. You can have limited experience, but if all of your experience is with the top players available, you will naturally be better than most and will improve quickly if you have some ability.

As pointed out, Quake Live is not Quake 3. Let's make sure that is clear when discussing "experience." The weapon balance (or lack of weapon balance), the "you can hit everything" netcode, and the 10 minute time limit really change things.

I have played a few duels in Quake Live (about 60 or so) and don't see what is so difficult about it. It seems easier than Quake 2 and Quake 3 in my opinion, especially in the aim department.

The 10 minute matches are a bit lame in my opinion, and that is probably the most difficult aspect of the duel for me. You have no time to really figure out your opponent, and any poor start can be sat on and protected with defensive play much earlier than you could before with 15 and 20 minute time limits. For tournaments, they should never use anything under 15 minutes, with 20 minutes being the gold standard. I want to know who is the most consistent, and who can make adjustments mid-game, not who can get off to good start and be hot for 5 minutes before sitting on a lead and playing defensive. 20 minutes really tests your concentration and your consistency, especially if you are playing in a pressure situation. It also gives ample time for a player to mount a comeback, which can lead to more exciting games. 10 minutes is all wrong for competition in my opinion.

Either way, "experience" really depends on who you have experience with. I used to play on average about 12-14 hours a week and I had no problem competing with the top competition available. Was it because I was "oh so talented" or was it because during those 12-14 hours I was playing duels with people like immortal, thresh, b2, unholy, etc?

Competition breeds winners, that is the reality. If you play the best competition around, can take the ass kickings in good fun and come back for more, you will improve.

If you can't, and you are one of those people who disconnect mid-game and go cry because you lost, you will NEVER improve.

Quake is all about being able to take a loss and come back for seconds, thirds, fourths, etc... Eventually, you will get it.

++++'s for you Walter

http://www.quakelive.com/#profile/statistics/makaveli

http://www.quakelive.com/#profile/statistics/qpkush -- My only two duel quits are because I had to leave during one, and I got a joint passed to me at the start of another so we restarted. Just wanted to show that I'm not being a hypocrite when I talk about taking a loss in good fun and coming back for seconds. I do not quit if I am losing... it is just a game after all. I still don't understand why so many people rage quit......

Yea yea, I'm a Clan Arena whore as well. =P

Wow, I didn't know you were qpkush. Die! :P

Why are people convinced rapha only uses one account? Because he says so? Even religious people strech the truth from time to time... ;)

i really like dahang's playstyle and from what i can see from tournament coverage, he also seems like a good sportsman : no whine, no bullshit, just letting his game do the talking. however i disagree with the new maps thing.

Yeah, but Cooller beats everyone on t9. And not only just beats, but rapes. *_*

he did? Where? Dubai: Cooller lost T9, Dreamhack: Cooller lost T9. So where did Cooller win on T9 vs. Dahang?

hmm you're right. my bad.

Huh, i was sure he won t9 on DH. My bad.

Alright, he rapes most of the time, then. :D I think he's arguably the best t9 player at the moment.

hmm true.

both dahang and chance look SO cliché american.. alltho they both are probably nice guys, i always hope they lose

same here :D

"He has probably the least QL duel experience as opposed to players like rapha, Cooller, Cypher, and other top players, yet is able to compete with them on their terms"

If he's really reffering to QL duel experience he's about as wrong as you can get. Pretty much all of the American player have tons more game time in duel then all of the top EU Quake players.

Look at his proflie: http://www.quakelive.com/#profile/statistics/DaHanG

And they still suck because they have no talent :D

Booya!

COOLLER IS ALL BRAIN + NATURAL RL AIM PURE TALENT AND NO FUCKING AROUND

Looking at profile times is idiotic. I haven't followed Quake Live much recently, but a month or two ago you could always find top American players playing on their main accounts. In europe, you can only find "rekkthkexibq"s and "UnnamedPlayer"s, with few exceptions.

why doesnt anyone suggest that dahang is the most experienced QL player, because he has 3 times as many games as rapha?

3 times as many < 5 steps ahead.

There are is no way that dahang will be top in ql. The time that he has spent is more than enough to reach his full potential. If he hasn’t managed yet to be the best, he will never do.

you are wrong. you can grow grow grow you skill in quake games.. sometimes it's looks like you stoped improving, but there are no limits..

sure, but I still think he has played enough

to get good, yes. But this line

"If he hasn’t managed yet to be the best, he will never do."

is plain just wrong, he can always change his playstyle, mindset and get different\possibly better. It won't be about playtime this time around, tho.

I don't think inevitable means what gellehsak thinks it means...

in levitable: http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction...wsNum=2374

Yeah, I noticed it too :)

It was done via MSN, without really any grammar checking, at least on my part :P

:P

Why are there so many people talking about new maps in this thread? All I heard of is that hitbox update for tonight : (

"He has probably the least QL duel experience as opposed to players like rapha, Cooller, Cypher, and other top players, yet is able to compete with them on their terms."

im gonna go out on a limb here and say that cooller has way less QL experience. started playing seriously a few weeks befor dubai and still smashed dahang.

Yeah, DaHanG doesn't lose because he is inexperienced, he loses because he takes crazy risks constantly and ultimately they give more reserved and in control players easy chances to take control or gain frags (cooller/av3k do the same, but they make better choices).

Twice in a row and on new maps too! :)

Don't forget about the fake accounts people!

Ridiculous bragging who has less play time.

God, i must be really bored to read all this word by word and think about the sentences..... but my room ain't gonna clean itself!

Once upon a time there was a man called ''Walter''. Walter was a new player in the community, he practiced HUB3AEROQ3 extensively and with his tremendous dedication he became the greatest player on the face of the earth on this map, despite having no experience in quake (Unlike Virgin Rapha Getting raped for 10 years before he finally won a tournament.) I believe people are making the excuse for DaHanG that he cant learn the old maps (Even though he has a ton of hours in QL, and there's nothing really special about being smart in Quake.) DaHanG can rape all in QL, but it doesnt really suit his style..He can own Thump4, PURRI, and toxjq..but it is difficult for him to own a +backing weapon 5 +attack virgin that runs all game and rails. GG bye, Quake Live Sucks btw DaHanG and Walter Rape all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ROFL

you sir are and idiot

Careem or Guard. Wish I had site admin so I could verify...

tor

would love to see walter vs czm on hub, when czm was at his best.

So my question is can someone start from scratch on QL as a noob and work their way up- with no background in any previous quake games- and achieve a competitive level? Is QL (with all its problems) a prime training ground for such a thing, or is internet-based play substandard compared to training on LAN's? Does it even matter?

Yes, I'm new. Yes, I'd love to compete. Yes, I suck at QL. Lemme just get that outta the way.

So you don't have background in quake, don't have background in professional gaming, aren't good at quake, but want to dedicate yourself to it? You have more important questions to ask. Start with "what the hell am I thinking?"

ql is awesome, play it for fun

No, I don't have a background in quake, pro gaming. But I just enjoy the hell out of it and thought it would be cool to good enough to compete one day, even if just once, just to say I did it. I've just heard people say that playing online is less helpful when trying to learn, but never really got any good reasons, so I thought I'd ask.

reply button is awesome, use it to look smarter

well,,, dahang seems to have a steep learning curve at the beginning (good for new maps) but maybe the curve flattens when it comes down to pushing the edge?

you see, there are 2 points of view on what dahang is capable of.

its up to him to show us what dahang we really have.

stermy for instance is quite the same issue. he can go postal and suck like dahang.

gl gelleh

pimple popping, anal licking, testes touching, ear flicking, fag fucking, nut scratching, men making, fart sucking, leg groping, nail biting, pale skinned fucking LOSERS!!

Fuck Europeans!

God bless America and the QL champion is American!
That is all that really matters in your lives you sorry fucks!

Russians are cool too.

the fuck is your problem with nut scratching?


doesn't you mom allow it?

and everyone enjoys licking a good asshole now and then?

why is that even a question?

precisely!