crt

CRT.

Use LCD so you can whine about it when you loose.

LSD

You don't need no fucking monitor with that.

crt: D

Considering its on shitty monitors

lcd 120 hz is kinda the same performance wise but has all the lcd's advantage.
i d pick one of em .

and what are those "advantages"??

Lol get a clue, save some space ?

no shit sherlock?!

but tell me what TECHNICAL advantages does lcd have compared to crt??? 0

crt:
pixelsize: 0.21
refreshrate:800x600@160hz

not to mention theres no natural black color and other shading crap at lcds...

Agreed on that, just started doing some digital painting and the colour on my lcd compared to my crt is disgusting, although it appears that photoshop has some good colour profiles for lcd.

sharpest colors and picture ive ever seen were on monitors with M2 tube no matter which manufacturer it is mitsubishi or iiyama and for the price they cost today 20-50e its more than affordable

well this is obvious cause you use some shitty TN-panel lcd. Try calibrated IPS-panel lcd. Its very near CRT, but doesn't strain your eyes let alone the space saving.

Yeah and like 32 ms (g2g) + 60 Hz.

Neither he or you mentioned tehnical advantages

mainly about how it stresses ur eyes.
an lcd is definetely less tiring ingame and for reading is even more.
Static images arent drawn in screen everytime and if u consider that there are 120 images per second u save a shitload of refreshing that will just be a charm for ur eyes.Compare an lcd and a crt at 60 hz , Its a totally differen world.
u should also consider that an lcd needs way less power to work which is never a bad thing.

plz dont teach me how chatode tube works i was studying this crap...and I cant see how LCD is less stressful for ur eyes while neon lights are directly shining into ur head.My eyes hurts more from watching LCD@60 then crt@120.And this stuff about less power consumption and radiation is lol (unless ure a greenpeace) its like when Razer tries to sell u a 10k dpi mouse, u see late versions had irrelevant amount of radiation, less than ur cellphone for sure.And crt at 60Hz is still way smoother than LCD@60hz!

well i m not really the only one that feels that crt are more tiring than lcd at same hz .A good lcd at 60 hz is as smooth as 60hz crt ...try with a new 120 hz at 60. I can "feel" the refresh with the crt even in static images(ofc). I didnt speak about radiation but the power usage is WAY different and isnt about being a greenpeace u ll just fucking pay that energy surplus the end of the month. (ok its prolly something like 3-5 dollars a month but calculate the amount after 2 years which is even a limited amount of time for a monitor . u ll save half of what u paid for buying it )
ah and btw have u ever tried reading with a crt??? i m using a crt from years and i m not like an lcd fan , i d never buy a 60 hz lcd but really these new ones worth to be bought imho :D
i also think that widescreen is a good stuff for gaming even in quake. u get extra fov which is never bad .
ah, dvi > vga !!

Well u must have a really old crt then or some lowcost if u can see those black horizontal lines caused by refreshrate and why would u wanna play with 60hz on a 120hz monitor?Anyways I have a great crt at home and Diamond pro 930sb from Mitsubishi and I have no problems with reading, color sharpnes is better than at any LCD.I have about 20lcds at home for spare parts or just waiting to be repaired and im sure crt at 60 > lcd 60 any time, the only thing that sucks is that I cant use it on 64bit systems cause of drivers but i guess it will be ok until OLEDs dont get on the market.LCD cant have better pic quality cause their contrast ratio will never be as high as at crts, besides that 0.21 pixel,brightness etc.But ure entitled to ur own oppinion...

ps. LCD tend to have more foggy edges than crts I think Sharp tried to fix that with putting LEDs there and use LCD at the middle of the pannel with the new tvs...

my crt aint that bad really its a sony multiscan 420 GS an high level crt (at least on paper) even tho its pretty old.
Btw not saying that colors are better in lcd's compared to crt's but really they are pretty good and i dont feel like there s any problem. I cant find any difference color wise.
I just think that overall lcd got way better now and considering the problems above i personally rather a new 120hz lcd considering that in quake they are totally the same and 22 " widescreen rulez :D

tbh CRT got much better in the last years aswell...and as it looks like ur monitor if this is what u have http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/sony/cpd420gs.html looks very old and not so high as u though (at least on paper :D)can barely get 120hz so thats why u can notice those refreshrate stripes.And I was argumenting ur statement as image beeing better... the fact that manufacturers are doing those fail hybrides beetwen leds/lcd proves that lcds are flawed, trying to sharpen them.Anyways at this moment buying any of LCDs even 120hz would be a waste of money, cause LEDs are gonna hit the market any time soon.Those monitors could really be the next "big" thing and certainly not lcds 0ms,contrast,brightness and probably smaller pixels etc.LED is something worth buying and not LCD! :P

oled will definetely own i know..but well i think that for the next couple of years they ll cost way too much..waiting for them from 2-3 years now i m tired since seems like they are not going to be out at good prizes for a while .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v3QqlubgtA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrcqrjwy0e4&feature=related

this would be a money well spend...anyways I heard there was some monitor announced with leds cant remember which manufacturer :P

i m pretty sure that there is a difference between oled an lcd led tho.
the only oled in the market atm is the sony 3" xel-1 http://www.sony.it/product/tvp-oled-tv/xel-1.
lcd led still has input lag problems and it was created for 2 reasons:avoid bleeding and make the screen less expensive to repair.
i read that a new 120 hz viewsonic lcd led will come pretty soon .

lags because it has backlight, oled wont have backlight :)

oled wont.
led lcd will since its just like a lot of backlight instead of a big one .

I agree with Spartaz0rd.

I played on CRT@120hz for many years and my eyes would always get dried out and very red after playing for a couple hours. When I was finally forced to start using an LCD (Samsung Syncmaster 2233), I instantly noticed a difference in the lack of dry eyes from playing for a few hours.

Also, LCDs get a bad rap. But I've really warmed up to them. They're just as good as CRTs. I think the key is just finding QUALITY LCDs and not the shitty ones.

lol ok...but the same thing goes to crts.U think that crts didnt develop in the last years?!I was talking about crts with diamondtron tubes u probably had some old junk just like he did and think that uve seen it all...but whatever discussing this is pointless

Believe whatever you want to believe.

I dont need to belive, I know since my occupation requires that

evilli in the technology itself takes sense that crt are more tiring than lcd , really after knowing how they work its impossible to say the opposite. I m not saying that crt didnt improve and surely are better now but still there s no way for a technology limit that they are less tiring than a lcd.

what are u talking about, what takes sense?
Ure talking based on personal believes, about things that are just commonly known...just smth u read from ur PC Gamer magazine or picked from wiki.Ur crt which was VERY OLD was flickering because the monitor itself couldnt handle the refresh rate that is why u could see those black stripes on the screen.But im telling u now that LCD CAN FLICKER ASWELL http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/dis...de_11.html exactly cause of the color switching problems..and not just that, for example the same way as ur light in ur room can flicker since capacitor in it is refiling it with electricity the same way those backlights can pulse and again u feel tired.Just think about it...a good crt that can reach 200hz CAN BE BETTER than LCD at 60hz and less straining to ur eyes.With increasing refresh rate at crt ure DECREASING flickering.Face it the only thing about LCD is that its practical and widescreen and thats it in gaming CRT is much better, ofc im not saying new 120hz lcds are crap they are very good...but compared to a 100y technology which ur mentioning theire nothing special.For the money u can buy a great crt nowadays which is 20e can offer much more than a 300e LCD

i know this stuff and well i was speaking about same refresh.
crt 60hz vs lcd 60hz what s worse for ur eyes and cant say that lcd is .
I never said that i see the refresh at 120hz but only at 60hz and my monitor can handle that refresh rate easily so isnt related to what u said.

You're a CRT salesman?

no im an electrotechnitian myself, but thats irrelevant my father works for Philips services and has over 30years of experiences in RA-TV so I guess he knows a bit more than these nerds from esr

Gotcha. Since your dad knows, you must know.

CRT

what a stupid question

CRT > All. In Korea even SC pro players use CRT.

lol, a lot of them use LCD for practice, as there isn't that much of a difference for sc

lcd close thread

dunno about you but i just cannot have a crt anymore just for the sake of quake. space and aspect ratio is already enough to make me buy an lcd

If you ever want to move it: LCD

LSD

id rather have a slightly lessened aim rather than a huge, big, bulky, dull, outdated monitor on my desk.

Yes you can get a "really smooth feeling playing quake"

but you have to play at a shit resolution and to me nowadays it seems to much for a game i will never be pro at anyway


Older CRT don't come in nice widescreen flavours either and that is kind of shit if you want to watch a film or play a game that actually been released and uses up to date technology in the last 3 years.


So buy a nice sexy lcd

If it was slight I would change, but the difference is huge for me. Of course, playing with 24" compared to 19" was nice for rail.

my point is...with lcd 120 the difference is definetely slight

Oh yes definitely, I would be using my lcd only if it was 120hz.

I have a good crt and a lcd with 75hz/2ms and tbh my aim isnt much better with the crt.I have switched between them to se if my aim was so much better with the crt but it isnt.So imo the benefits of a slick LCD is well worth it.I mean you dont play quake 24/7 anyway and a LCD is better for everything else imo.

And as i said i have a 75hz/2ms lcd i can just imagine the imbaness of a 120hz lcd :)

what nYMM said :D

I will then give the first and only right answer:

CRT.

Because the higher refresh rates, thats it, thats all.

BUT! Now we have the 120Hz LCD's. I still have to try one so i dont know how it compares to a CRT, but i heard its great.

Ive ordered the Acer so ill know within a few days.

Rofl there is some human being on this earth who claims that you can aim better with LCD than with CRT?

tfts with 60 hz change the pictures slower than crts or tfts with above 100hz.

i would use one of these, since the slower pace makes it way easier to aim.

:P
use 1hz, the picture wont change </edit> for one second <edit >and u can take all your time to aim

can't argue with that flawless logic

^_^

:D

If you guys are still playing what kind of crt do you use? I'm using this one:

http://www1.dealtime.com/xPO-Dell-Performance-P992-19-in-

I'm gonna buy a 120hz tft as soon as they fix the scaling issue with ati drivers. :X

dude, im reading this through that monitor right now !

haha awesome :D

Using a very similar one.

Some crap that i found in my basement....
Scott B17CL

Yeah it's 17 inches :/

But at least it's 120Hz

I will might buy a "new" crt or an oled next year.

Invest in your eyesight, get LCD!

get both

a crt for quake/fast paced games, and an lcd for everything else

can find really good crts on craigslist if you have the patience

Can you give us a link? :) The page looks horrible.

i live for crt 100hz+

in the recent esl tournament that rapha won, all players were using lcd viewsonic monitors and their aim was top class.

so,

maybe there is not much difference between the two types in terms of aim?

maybe they're pro players?
maybe they trained on lcd prior to the tournament?
maybe they?

Spartie once told me that he needs at most 3 days to adjust himself to a new monitor. Imagine if they would play with their setup they have got at home with the exact same sense etc. Not that Coller et. al. already play insanely good on 100hz crts. *thats what they had in hannover

crts in hannover?

show me the video or the pic.

fuck quake, its 2010.


buy a huge 24" lcd and enjoy how cool it is, how much space you have on your desk and how it weighs like 1/20 of an old crt

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9218/currentlayout.jpg

Don't be a nub. CRT for Quake, LCD for all else. Dual monitor ftw.

Lol, exact same setup.

that's because you have class, my friend. haha

p.s. any takers for that Opeth show yet?

I have 2 maybes, but neither of them know Opeth. I met this weird dominatrix chick online, thinking of asking her :/

Show them Roundhouse Tapes, there are some high quality clips on youtube if you don't have the DVD.
If I could see either Blackwater Park or Demon of the Fall performed live I could die happy then and there.

awesome, for some reason I've totally forgot about opeth since damnation. thanks for reminding me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlhahNSszlU

I hope for your sake that this link works where ever you are.

Man, every album in the past decade has been above incredible!

you didn't miss anything after imho

lol

What?

i had to laugh when i read

"i met this dominatrix chick on the internet"

True story. We connected over a shared love of Atari Teenage Riot. However when she asked me if I would like to dress like a girl, crawl at her feet and cum on her boots, I must admit, I was slightly disturbed.

alec empire $$

Alec Empire >>>

the chick he's doing his tours with nowadays is pretty awesome aswell, nic endo or something

Yeah, seem them twice. Going to see a once off reunion ATR show in 2 months which will have alec empire, nic endo and hanin elis. :D

nice, yeah i saw them twice in 2008 or 9 i think aswell, don't have much time for concerts in 2010 tho :(((

However when she asked me if I would like to dress like a girl, crawl at her feet and cum on her boots, I must admit, I was slightly disturbed.

So she's not very hot then.

Nah pretty hot, but pyschotic. I'm trying to make a change here!

Same here.

At the office I have a Samsung 2233rz. I agree is much better than older lcd, but I'm not convinced it really can match a crt.

22" crt @ 160 hz >>>>>>>>>> 120 hz samsung tft. its still terrible to switch from 160 to 120 hz imo

in the esl in hannover:

cooller vs rapha
http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22013

both players using lcd.


in wcg 2009 starcraft final:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-4DN8RKNDc

both players using lcd.

Yes, this probably had nothing to do with sponsorship or convenience.

rather ask urself with what they were playing on eswc?

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1625858

fat mouse @0:51. youre a faggot-fat-fanboi.

BUY a CRT? No, but if you already have a CRT I'd wait (which is what I'm doing) to see more 120HZ TFT's on the market so I have more to choose from.

so where would u guys recommend getting a crt? :]

i have a 19'' crt but only 90hz and frankly i h8 it other than for quake and switching between them is a pain in the arse so I'm looking to buy a bigger screen with faster refresh rate, looked on the bay of e (ebay) and there was just crap being stupidly over priced.

Granted I haven't exactly done much research but I'm lazy :)

Any ideas?

uve got tons of iiyamas on ebay

check for iiyama Vision master pro 454 or 514,512
nec/mitsubishi diamond pro 930sb or diamond plus 230sb

unfortunately only a few down sumerset way and surrey and I'm Northumberland :/

But seriously thanks alot means I can keep an eye out for some good ones on there.

What's noticable is that the increment in hz isn't linear, at least that's my experience.

For example:
The step from 60hz to 75hz is pretty big while going from 75hz to 100hz isn't as gamebreaking but still an improvement. I found myself going from a 120hz LG CRT to a Samsung 20" 60hz and went from having really good aim to just avarage and it really blows. Feels like you've lost the touch of the game and shafting is a nightmare vs someone good. You kinda lose interest in the game eventually.

As for Quake Live regarding if you pick a CRT or LCD, it better do 120hz. Anything else is not really worth it. A CRT will be much better since it has no input delay but it's ugly and takes too much space.

An LCD will be expensive, you'll be having issues with backlight bleeding and some added input delay but on the other hand it's more relaxing for your eyes.

If space isn't important -> CRT
Otherwise -> LCD

I'd recommend waiting a few months until the new 23.6" hit the market and hopefully making the 2233RZ and Viewsonics 22" slightly cheaper.

it seems to me that if you have used crt all your life and suddenly switch to lcd, your aim will decrease a lot; but if you continue practicing with the new lcd, you will get the same level of aim that you had with the crt.

right?

Until you switch back to CRT, and then your aim explodes in an amazing array of dophins and unicorns.

for the sake of argument, would you consider this the best feasible gaming monitor?

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-GDM-FW900-Widescre...B00004YNSR

24 inch widescreen so you still get the aspect ration/fov advantage, which was lcd's only edge in terms of gaming.


edit: also if youre looking for a lcd to buy, check out digitalversus:

http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6

if you compare two lcd monitors, underneath check all the categories under 'Choose a test'. The most useful imo is 'input lag vs a crt', since this is a spec that manufacturers dont list or test. Some lcds made specifically for gaming dont fare too well.

The selection of monitors is pretty narrow and they dont update it often, but its still nice.
Ive looked through lots of these in my quest to get a decent lcd on the cheap.

Another commonly overlooked gaming stat is the 'dot pitch'. Wikipedia it if you care to, but you should definitely shoot for <=.27


TLDR:

crt is obviously the best, but if you need an lcd id start with viewsonic since they have the lowest input lag on average, and then narrow it down with the typical listed specs (<=5ms response, minimum 75hz, preferred screen size, <=.27 dot pitch)

any experience with the acer 120hz monitor yet?

There's a thread already (http://esreality.hexus.net/?a=post&id=1832552), even on hardforum (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1466381).

its fucking.....



AWESOME

I would say that 75hz /2ms is "ok" everything less then that is unplayable and will affect your aim alot.As i said i use a samsung t220 and my LG and MG are stable at 35% and my rail is on 55% so its not that bad.Although i wouldnt go out and buy a 75hz/2ms LCD now because that isnt worth it.Stay on your CRT untill a few more 120hz lcd's pops up.

Edit: I play at 800x600 with black bars on the sides.

I was really hesitant to switch to LCD 3 years ago and got myself 22"/2ms monitor. Best money spent ever. It does smudge a little bit when you turn like a maniac, but after 2 days I stopped feeling the difference. Colors and contrast and therefore picture were superior to what i've had on my CRT. And it's much better feeling for your eyes.

Get LCD, you won't ever care about the difference. Make sure you don't pick absolute crap, but $250 today will get you good enough monitor.

I'm waiting on the new 120hz LCD's. There's only two (I believe) available right now, and about 3-4 new ones coming out from many manufacturers. Wait for those :D

lcd 120hzs. discussion closed.

still has 12-20ms input delay those 120hz lcd have.

its about 10ms which doesnt matter much. Everything else is placebo.

well i get my data not from placebo but actual observations/field work. dunno where you get yours.

cmon. you wont loose a match just because of 10 or 20ms

oh no? then what is the ping whine for? just a few ms here and there.


but anyways it wasn't about winning or losing matches dunno why you brought that up. its just the fact that there is a delay.

if you play games like reaction time games than it will effect what you can achieve as in fastest possible. So maybe wouldn't effect quake but in reaction time games it does.





haha?

you cant compare ping with general delay and I am not going to discuss this

I just think: human reaction is slow anyway compared to a 10-20ms delay so usually it wont matter at all.
10-20ms is really not much. I think it takes more time just to press my mouse button

so clicking in a reaction time game where 10-20 ms is a lot is meaningless?

do you speak about sth like humanbenchmark? dont be silly thats not a game

not about reaction time, or human benchmark or anything, but delay REALLY matters, even if it's 10ms.. 120fps means ~8ms pr frame, which means at least one frame lag which is very noticeable with a mouse.. you tend to overshoot when moving your mouse with lag.. some peope er more twitchy about it, since they've got BETTER eye-hand coordination than others.. end of subject!.. input lag matters..

maybe hbm but also other reaction time games i play. I have over 5000+ clicks on crt and lcd and notice the effects of input delay.

I said i dont know the effects in quake but it if two people click at the same time one with lcd with 12+ms delay and with crt who will shoot first?

Nobody. Both will shoot at the exact same time if they have the same ping.
Of course the guy with the lcd will see things with a 12+ms delay .

absolutely correct because "they click at the same time"
stunt.us you are thinking of a different situation but even in a different situation those 10-20ms wont matter except you have reflexes below 10ms

Terrible logic imo.

Let's say for example that you and your opponent run into each other and you both have the same exact reaction speed, ping, etc with the only difference being that you're on a laggy monitor while he's on a crt. He'll be able to spot you and react before you can. You're clearly at a disadvantage.

Now I know this is a theoretical situation and it doesnt come up often, but to say that 15ms delay wont matter unless your reaction speed is faster than that is just plain silly.

blablabla all

thing is that it's more enjoyable to play quake and other fast games on a crt screen than on lcd.
Ofc you get used to that after a couple of days, but when you go back to crt you inmediately notice it's way better. In one word: smoothness.

it's not about the delay itself really. If you notice most pros use wmo, which does not have a good input delay against other mice to the point that is a bigger difference on reaction than crt vs lcd, but it is still used by them because of its sexyness (best word to describe it, both shape and feel at 500hz) and also because those ms differences doesn't matter really

where did you get that wmo has a lot of delay?

Mice input delay tests don't give a fuck about the shape nor the feel of the buttons.
You could have a 0.001ms input delay technology, if the shape is shit and the buttons feel like a .357 trigger you'll get more input delay than by opening the console and typing +attack

I know you were basically saying the same thing but I'm seeing those stupid graphs popping up on more and more forums and it pisses me off.

exactly what I say. Those are different data.
On mice you need an ok sensor, but most importantly shape. That's why wmo > all for quake, and trust me I've tried lots (mostly because playing online fps since 98)

about mice input delay I got the info from that japanese site. It's not "lots" but twice than the best popular ones (razer mostly). And that's at 666hz, optimal result.
But as I said, that does not make any difference really (data is really meh for mice really), as it does on screens because of the things discussed.

lol since when dif mice have dif input delays?

it only depends on the usb poling rate

u can oc wmo to 500 or 1000hz if u want

as for the crt vs lcd i agree

LCD SUCK BIG TIME

They have since some japanese guy did some tests. But as we never had a real translation of all that stuff...

tests are cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSTWqRkBN74

ok so they can be different cos mice have different number of electronic shit inside but u wont notice it

i can tell if the mouse is clocked to 125hz or 1000hz but i wont notice difference in input delays between 1000hz wmo and 1000hz deathadder

nope different mice with different buttons click differently. depending on how hard it is to click them some take more pressure.

button clicks have nothing to do with input delay lol input delay is measured from the moment signal is made (CLICK) to the reaction on the screen just think logically...

well if you see something on screen but it takes extra to push the button there will be a delay that might not be recorded on some program.

Useless test + no translation = no idea of the way it was done = useless graphs and shit = please stop arguing it's not worth anything = oh yeah it's esr ffs stfu guys

1v1?

No thanks, my wmo's input delay kinda hinders my skillz.

discussion open

hmm?

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1856617#pid1856617

what about it

when mister Sanders says the discussion is closed, it is closed, guddamit! :P

fuck that ill knock his face off

btw i found an interesting link:

http://www.computerbase.de/forum/showpost.php...stcount=26

sadly its in german :( but it might be helpful for some ppl who want to force higher hz in w7

wow, lots of responses

CCCP

Just get an pretty LCD monitor for the decoration , at the end of the day its just a game ^^.

CRT for sure!

one question i have:

having a CRT will limit the kind of video card you will have?

for example: buying an ATI Radeon™ HD 5870 video card, will require that you buy an hd monitor??

or can you use an ati video card from the HD series with your normal CRT?

there was a dvi2vga adapter with my hd 4850 so I guess there will be one with the hd 5xxxx series too.

If you are looking to change to any 120 hz lcd in the future I would go for a nvidia card. Ati drivers are a pain.

The 5770 I bought came with a DVI to VGA adapter, the 58** series should have them as well.

And as c1 said, not the best drivers, but good enough for 60 Hz.

why not the best drivers?

does this happens even with the new ati cards?

new ati cards needs still ati drivers

even the best ones !!!?