ammo is the most important thing in the game, cuz it decides how much u can shoot. it's more important than items and just as important or more important than position. players who pay attention to weapons and ammo are the best (rapha evil strenx cooller and to a lesser extent cypher) while players with godawful ammo (and weapon) management are sucky fail at lans go emo and cry on stream or are just pure rail idiots who lose 4-0 in bo7 finals vs cypher.

Cypher only has 23 lg bullets left (c) Twister

av3k is one of the most careless pro players if it comes to ammo management (at least he was) and even tho he never lost 4:0 vs cypher, what's more, he even won cypher almost all times.
like wtf is "players with godawful ammo (and weapon) management are sucky fail at lans go emo and cry on stream or are just pure rail idiots who lose 4-0 in bo7 finals vs cypher." - haven't heard any more stupid statement in whole life, for real

udump, meant killsen. rail only, 4-0 bo7 125fps final, ring a bell?

you even said "players"

I think that is correct logic, he is dumb for you spelling the wrong name.

now I'm gonna buy an iron plane and fly to irony land where I am king!

so funny the czm game at the faceit cup #6 it was (i guess?) against memento mori (?) where he runs out of rockets like 100 times and always manages to dodge the rocket ammo...

For ql and vanilla physics I think its fine. All weapons except the big 3 are all situational(sounds odd - I mean as in, not used frequent enough), who cares if there's less nades it's still going to be spammy any ways.

rail - fine it's like 10 slugs? and you usually see people replenish rail ammo on maps like t7 pretty frequently. Guess some maps could reduce it a bit, but it definitely lacks elegance with variable rail values on different maps.(edit: I meant base ammo when rail is picked up, I like rail ammo as is. Either way still gross)

rockets - Least likely. Play defensive, against a defensive player or a close game and you'll need to manage rockets at least in my experience spectating and playing.

lg - Probably the only weapon you could try and reduce overal, but it would seem silly to me. Might make people more predictable cause they're on top of lg more often which does allow the losing player to roam more. But I would find that equally annoying on both sides of that.

With another game I would like to see something new though, wasn't a fan of warsaws old system but I admire they tried.

Stop giving people ammo on repeating weapon pickups.

inb4 howyousupposedtoplaytdmthenwahwahwah

or do it like qw and have weapons stay in duel (but no repeating pickups) and normal pickups with respawn in tdm.

Good luck in introducing QLs players to different deatchmatch modes. But it would be nice idd. I don't see a reason why not, since we already have a different armor system in PQL.

Ye, dm13 concerning rail is quite fuckin hard.

Legend has it there's a button in the lava that opens the door to rail room...

LEGENDNUDGE.

It kinda screw you over.

killsen found it actually

less ammo = more skill

Quakecon 2014 Gauntlet CA

gaunt has unlimited ammo, your idea is wrong

There is no ammo though (???)

what have you done :O

Instagib with 1 slug only. That'd be awesome!

its called CS

the current ammo system for duel is a fucking disgrace. you can stand on a weapon, spam endlessly and leave with more ammo than you started with. the never ending gren spam on ztn from gl to mh is a good example of it, you get 50 grens thrown to MH _and_ once you get it, your enemy still has 25 left cause he stood there for long enough spamming and every confrontation you take is spammed by grens after that

also, imo the main good outcome would be how it opens up the game and add more variety, because people are forced to use other weapons now. sg and pg usage would increase immensely adding much more variety into the standard fights. in addition you have to go for ammo packs which means that players actually have to move more making them even more vulnerable for well planned attacks. can't really lose by changing the system.

ideally, yes.

could also lead to more defensive play in general, especially since people would be not too confident playing in a new system

oh, and look at it from a wider perspective. do you really wanna make ql even more complex? means, even more inaccessible to casuals

if you don't move, you don't have anything to defend with.

casuals play ca anyways and I doubt having to collect an ammo box for that 1.5x max ammo or whatever would matter much when they play each other.

Can't plus this enough, grenades on ztn are the bane of my existence.

yeah and the best part is that it has somehow seeped into the community that this is now the epitome of duel skill

have a [+].

You just pretty much took the words out of my mind.

GL should be moved into the corner on the other side of the pillar, wonder if that negates it enough tho :P

nope the best solution is to simply change the ammo system. there is no downside in changing it to the way q3 used to be. it fixes all the issues with the glaring "abuses" such as rl to ra spam on dm13 and gl to mh on ztn without affecting healthy maps/weapon placements.

the issue is the system and tinkering with weapon placement on certain maps isnt going to fix it, because there will always be new maps and situations where it will still remain broken.

well i can tell you right now that idsoft isnt just gonna change the ammo system out of the blue. they probably knew what they were getting into by making weapon respawns fast to begin with.

and if it really is such a big problem, then map makers will simply have to take weapon placing into account, if they dont then i guess it means they want to make certain items difficult to attain.

to be honest i dont mind RA on dm13 beeing difficult to grab, ive always felt it was part of the game anyway. nades on ztn are a little bit more... questionable. its lame, sure, but not really game breaking either. i can understand why people dislike it, but at the same time i dont see it as a major problem either.

QL is meant to be different to Q3 u know :P

Excuse me if I'm saying something stupid, but I don't see how going back to Q3's ammo system would change anything to grenade spam on mega on ztn. If I'm not mistaken, with this system, picking a grenade launcher with less than 10 grenades would set you back to 10 ammo, right? So what would stop you from standing on GL's spawn point and shoot down? It would basically go 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 10 9 8 7...

your enemy still has 25 left cause he stood there for long enough spamming and every confrontation you take is spammed by grens after that

basicly the current system just makes the game 1000x more spammier

imho the ammo system suits the game, but the default weapon respawning time should be 15 seconds (talking about duel)

I think that 15 is a bit too harsh. Hub would be impossible. 10 Seconds would fit tbetter imo.

cant bitch about people playing ca if u wanna add another annoyance to duel =PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Coming from the very games you described, I prefer the Q3 ammo system and weapon respawn times over QL's. It made the game slightly more complex, which is a good thing.

This is especially true for duel and CTF, though implementing both measures for QL TDM and FFA might break those mods. On the other hand, I think the game rules should be the same across all mods, so duel can't have special rules.

So, I'd like to see the same QL ammo system (pickup the rocket launcher once again, get 10 rockets instead of 1) but with 10 or 15 seconds of respawn time for duel, CTF and FFA. TDM seems fine from the outside. Now, if duel has a separate ruleset then I prefer 15 secs and 1 rocket.

Maybe this all ammo tactics and suggestions would be good idea to think about when id starts working on Q5 duels.

Supposedly id is going to start working on QL once again*, so this thread isn't just theorizing.

*inb4 cg_plasmacolor

supposedly? source? context?

syncerror said that in an interview (right?)

I have no idea

Overly diplomatic.

I want a rainbow rail trail - carebear stare hgnnnn

I WNAT RALGUN TO SHUUT UNDED WEREGIRAFFES INSTED OF BEAM.

ughh...cute overload. brb playing through doom nighmare.

In high level games the 5 s respawn DO matter

One thing people overlook is that for example in a spawning (level) situation no one would wait on DM13 RL or LG (the two most important ones I guess) to get another 10 ammo just to be safe in that regard, in those 5 s rapha can already get in position for the next possible fight and win the position which is worth x times more than that

In QL I don't feel like you need to think enough about what you're using your ammo for. You can get 20 rockets in only 5 seconds, and then use half of your rockets to spam corners. It makes duel feel kind of CAish sometimes.

Please go back to the Q3 ammo system.

ppl have complained about this from day one without any results.
At minimum the starting ammo should be halved if they insist on the current one.

On a side note, q3's ammo system (or qw dmm3) would help mappers
to force ppl wander into lesser known territories of their maps.

I don't think it's been talked about enough. Most of the discussion was about hit boxes, weapon balance, and net code. Which are important topics, but I don't think the ammo system has been discussed enough. I've certainly never seen Sync say anything in regards to the ammo system (I'm not saying he never has), but I have seen him say things about the other topics I mentioned.

Yea, let's make QL SO COMPLEX, SO HARDCORE, so nobody would play it at all.

Most people can't master it with current setup.

Sad the discussion is for ammo and not weapons.

Weapons should be something you control as well. Getting LG/RL/RG should take a while and be considered part of your stack - you should be able to heavily deny at least one weapon if you choose to. This would not be popular with a lot of players, especially non-top players, because many have a weapon they prefer and are fairly useless without. Someone in this thread suggested 10 second spawn on weapons. This does not go far enough and does not allow you to run a weapon instead of an armor if you choose to.

Those first few minutes of a close game where there is lots of back and forth before control is established? This could be extended much longer with weapon stay off.

Of course this means longer spawn times on weapons, which may also mean some maps (aero/tox/hektik come to mind) may become unplayable.

Possible mid ground is having RL/LG/RG on a 20 second spawn and the lower tier weapons (SG/PG/GL) on the current 5 second spawn with the Q3 ammo system.

Before you all bitch about it being impossible to come back - ZTN will now have the current four (2YA/RA/MH) as well as an additional three items. If anything this makes control easier to break as the "stack" consists of weapons as well. Getting to critical mass currently takes about 1 minute - doing it while having to get weapons as well would extend this.

UT99 in australia was played with EU ruleset (+belt/vials) and weaponstay off.. whereas EU played with it on. Or at least some countries did. From a duel perspective UT had less to control. Belt(55s)/Jacket(27s) was it - one of each on all maps. More time could be easily put aside to denying weapons (27s). This is not to compare quake to ut, but to highlight that weapon stay off does work.

Since this thread seems to be specifically about GL on ZTN - you are aware that there is an ammo pack right next to it. Even with the Q3 ammo system we can still be very free with spam from the grenade deck.