its cool, and if it works without specific hardware (as its didn't the last time I dealt with this shit in quake 4) then good.

BUT.

To me its a bit like a wall hack, you know EXACTLY when the opponent is regardless of geometry in front of it.

So for me its a good and bad.

It has nothing to do with wallhack. It's just 3d sound.

Get two pros to play one game on aereowalk with this one and one game without it on. Pretty sure you'll see this will have a negative impact on the game.

Yes, let's stick with hearing people where they aren't and not hearing them 2 feet away from you.

The consequences of a game where you knew exactly where the opponent is based on every little sound regardless of the geometry in front of you isn't really any better especially when its not like promode where player position usually changes by many units a second. In fact its worse because you're going to make the game even more aim based.

This audio is too accurate, real life sound does not work like that, it changes depending on the type of materials in the environment and the layout from the position the sound is made, to the position and direction the receiver is at, sound is supposed to be an approximation, not a science.

I'm not saying the current one is perfect, but this IMO is too far in the opposite direction for a game like quake. if you could tweak this one a bit so its less accurate, it would be better for sure.

I haven't listened to this sample. I just know that the system needs to be consistent.

and if it works without specific hardware (as its didn't the last time I dealt with this shit in quake 4)

I did look into this once, and creative tied too much to their EAX implementation when they did the OpenAL support - it can actually work fine without hardware except they mixed the creative only effects bits in with the standard OpenAL bits without conditions on the appropriate cvars.

That's great, I wish QL had this... great video.

Yes, but it's not likely that the devs have the time/resources to code something like that in sadly.

ioquake3 is really great with this kind of sound (and also with its awesome - but mostly ignored - opengl2 support), but the best would be to have something like what we already had in 1998 in idtech3, until it was dropped at point release 1.16 (iirc).

I loved A3D, it was not only positional, but it also took the map geometry into account. It was way ahead of its time.... good memories:)

I could not find a quake video with the "latest" libs, but here is one from Elite Force which was also idtech3:

Coming from A3D in half Life / TFC to a totally broken system in qlive has been impossible for me to get over STILL after 6 years of quakeing now heh. A3D was seemingly ahead of its time, I just took it for granted and didn't realize other games wouldn't all be that good in sound, even if they are the best DM game ever made by a wide margin (quake ofc).

I tried a Loudness Equalize feature in Win7/8 to try to hear things a bit better because I couldn't hear anything at all. Holy hell, I have an easier time telling where they are without sound than with!

Sounds like shit, just like it did in quake 4.

Standard high-pass / low-pass would be so much better.

Thats basically what HRTFs are, except more advanced (real world measurements).

Yeah but it sounds like shit :D

Very nice work! - this would be a great addition, the kind of thing that 'would have' been welcomed in any QL 2.0 release (instead of the awful proposes we have)

Can you tell us please - what about sound direction for
'above or below'?

Sometimes (ignoring actual floor surfaces and the different noises they generate) it's difficult/impossible to tell whether your opponent is above or below you... is there any improvement in 'vertical' direction sound?

Although quite how you would manage this with stereo 'left/right' I don't know?

thanx

This should be already "true 3D" now (so with ups and downs too), but it's not that apparent indeed. I did not really try to tweak the settings tbh, just wanted to see if it would work (since it should - and apparently does - with any OpenAL game).

I will try to improve the effect when I will have time to play with it again, but you can also give it a try, (I left the URLs in the description on YT.)

Hf:)

thank-you for your work.
These are the type of improvements we would like!

Maybe next video - you could use a vertical map and perhaps let us hear what an opponent sounds like with rail and lg out in different positions?

thanks and np... but I want to be clear that I did nothing besides: copied some files and fraps-ed a little footage on my laptop:) I deserve no credit for the HRTF implementation.

edit: yes, I also wonder if the devs of ioquake3 use the third axis in their OpenAL code, or if it's even possible in idtech3's current state. Maybe it's 2D only because there is no data about the third axis at all? I don't know tbh, but it's definitely sounds "3D-ish" as far as I can tell.

understood :o)

I 'think' I'm correct in saying that there is no vertical sound in idtech3

I'm sure someone on here can enlighten us :o)

edit:
the John Carmack Quakecon keynote speeches are great places to get correct information on these matters - 'if' you can sit through them all!

I like to "sit through" those kind of talks:)

not looking at the video, i think it still sounds like stereo (1 dimensional).

I don't know for sure but I tend to hear a clear difference (well it's not that apparent indeed, as I already said, but there is definitely something)

1st.: OFF

2nd.: ON


You decide.

Yes I know it's nothing like the video below, but there is something at least.

ye, there is very big difference!

real-time GPU geometric Acoustics sound awesome :O

it doesn't seem to produce very useful and precise positional sound, which is any better than the usual sound(still not sure if you have to use the hrtf mode of your soundcard, like cmss 3d to make it work).
that elite forces sample sounds great tho.

So cmss is actually useful!

that's actually the question. :]

I remember that Quake 4 had some support for audiocard and who had it just ruled over others that don't, it had such effect in game. haha old times!

Yeah, in Dignitas we were sponsored by Creative labs. So we all got X-Fi Fatal1ty cards. I guess it was a decent advantage over teams without such hardware.

yeah i felt the same, so i knew that in the ESWC Brazil Quailfier there weren't have any special sound card in this tournament, so i built-up my training/practice without this "advantage".

man, honestly, i respected a lot your team/ex-team Dignitas for a very long time, and 4Kings too! i was once a manager from REVOLTZ that after has become 2nd mibr team(only our CS team and Painkiller player). i miss those times where there were many players from many clans around the world and that were tournaments like WCG, ESWC and CPL every year.

Good memories for sure:)

fox had told me that openal was not allowed in q4 tournaments years ago

do you remember a ISC or something like that, a tournament of WSVG but in the US without this "tag: WSVG" where Stermy won it? when he got like such an impressive acc of shaft and rail?

That was the WSVG Intel Summer Championship 2006, in which stermy lost to tox in the final.

really? i just remember that stermy ruled in this tournament. yeah i think Tox won all tourneys, right?

More or less, there were some that he didn't win (CPL Winter 2005 (Cooller), WSGV DreamHack Summer 2006 (Cooller), WSVG Louisville 2006 (Av3k)), but overall he dominated Quake 4.

i dunno why, it may be my impression but i have learned more from other players than toxic gameplay. i liked the way purri played at placebo, ah Socrates also won the WCG i guess..

lol, tox won the WCG, beating socrates_ 2:0 in the final :D

LOL! so everyone i expect to have won were beaten by him! hahahahha!

To be fair, socrates did beat Cooller in a final at least, to win the 2006 Trans Atlantic Showdown with the winners from EuroCup and AmeriCup. Don't remember who else participated :)

im glad you remember all that, i guess my brain has "deleted" many "not too important" information, hahaha! but I'm sure if i see the article on ESR about it and so on i would remember about that.

man i practiced a lot quake4 in 2007, my goal was to get the spot to the ESWC, honestly the story about it is so damn sad. i learned that if many things are too much against you, you should stop a bit and wait for the proper moment to swim in the right course.

How did you enable HRTF feature? or it is enabled by default in OpenAL?

Also why did you use OpenAL Soft and not Creative's OpenAL? Is there any advantages?

And btw what OS is installed on your PC?)

p.s. Afaik OpenAL Soft gives to much latency to the audio in compare with Creative's OpenAL.

The required files are in the archives I linked in the YT description and there is also a readme there telling you where to put them (please note that the 64bit dll is also called openal32.dll for some strange reason).

After using openal once, you will have a config file in your user folder (.alsoftrc on linux or alsoft.ini on windows) where you need to enable it (hrtf = true).

The result is very random, I was only able to make it work at 44.1 KHz, and even on that one, it was a ”lotto" with each try. I guess it's buggy.

Sorry, I don't know much about the latency. I was adding this to some games for the kid to give him a better experience (games he plays like tf2 or Minecraft, etc.), and that made me wonder how this would work in my fav game (note: the change in said games are much bigger and more apparent btw). His laptop (win7) only has an onboard audio and I already had soft_openal working, so it was just easier to test things there, and let's not forget that not everybody has a sound card with CMSS-3D capabilities.

great, thanks for vast explanation, now i really wanna try hrtf with Warsow, since it supports OpenAL too :D

I'll post comparison video if there will be any difference.

p.s. though I already use OpenAL and it gives much better feeling about enemy position and stuff, also it sounds more powerful and less delayed in compare with default sound module :3

All I know about Openal is how in q4 the default sound was utter shit and you could not even tell where your enemy was and this was fixed if you had a sound card supporting openal.

I really fking hated raven software for such a shitty game "decision"

OpenAL can't do sound arrival or propagation delays by default (it does do doppler tho, but that's just a basic effect what even Q3's default sound engine can do). It's just sets the amplitude of the sound based on left, right (simple stereo) and distance, that's all.

In real life, any given sound reaches your ears at a different time (unless it's at the "same" distance from both of your ears ofc), and your brain "learns" how to pinpoint the location based on that time difference. So those sound-cards "supporting OpenAL" had a special HRTF functions in their drivers which created such delay to mimic 3D sounds (Creative call it CMSS-3D). Software HRTF does the same but it doesn't really work in Q3 apparently (while it does indeed in other OpenAL games including Q4.)

I don't know about any of those technical stuff! All I know is that you could not easily tell enemy position from footsteps with default sound whereas you could with openal in q4

Interesting. Thanks, I didn't know about that.

For QL i turn on virtual surround (i have speakers) treble only and sound equalization.

I can tell up/down, left/right, in front/behind quite easily.

not sure how well it would work with headphones.

QL gives (uses) no information of any kind about "up/down", so I don't see how that would be possible.

me either.. maybe placebo.

Is there any difference when using normal stereo headphones?

Thanks: will have to test it someday (don't have quake3 installed anymore :P )

it's designed for headphones, that's the whole point

thanks for the info! :)

It is for headphones, but I don't think it really works in Q3 as it should.

Sound is always under appreciated. :(

FYI: if you have a X-fi, and want the best positional audio in CS:GO, then set it ingame to 5.1, while you use gamemode with cmss-3d in headphone mode of the soundcard.

a brief search says that 5.1 audio is busted in cs go.

it works perfectly, also the bug where you don't hear anything from a certain angle was fixed.

I don't know about cs:go in particular, but what he described is the best way to get positional audio these days in current games. Buy a headphone for music (no razer stuff) with good positional audio in a regular "2.0" setup (two drivers, stereo), buy a external dac or sound card that features "dolby headphone" or any of those that supports virutal surround, then set the game in 5.1 or 7.1, like if you were using multiple speakers.

Of course that won't work with Q3/QL, as it's ancient, but in games that do support that and that benefit from good headphones it's so good it should be considered cheating, especially on consoles since most players there use very shitty setups.

i tried it using xonar dg with dolby, stereo headphones, and csgo in 5.1 but i still feel skeptical. maybe it's a matter of getting used to the new sound.

I dont`t normally involve myself in threads like these as theres plenty of other expert turdnuggets floating around these places that seem to know their shit better than the rest.But since I see friend of mine showing interest for this, I feel the need and obligation to clarify few things here in the first place, because this specific op tends to provide incorrect suggestions and comments as he usually does.

as I was unfamiliar with this narcy-farcy expression, I actually followed the wiki link to check out what the talk is all about.Disappointingly, but expectedly aswell I didn`t discover anything new, It was just a waste of time as usual.

Firstly, the audio branch that is researching these problems is called Psychoacoustics.Its a science about natural perception of the sound, researching and solving problems that occure in nature.It is not related to electrical part of audio, it is just a knowledge of acoustics in space.Why am I talking about this shit in the first place!?!?More about that in further lines..

2nd.
The op is vaguely confusing 3d reproduction with binaural or in plebeic language, natural sound reception/reproduction.This is what happens when you give someone to read something he doesen`t understand...

See, we firstly need to establish what STEREOPHONIC reproduction means in practice.Yes, obviously we all know it stands for 2-channel audio, just as we were told about it.And from this it would be logical to conclude that stereo-Loudspeakers function same as stereo-Headphones.BUT!!Not really.. this is the part which Psychoacoustics explain, the problem is following:



If we are for example to use RC-generator and plug loudspeakers and headphones on it to test the sound(its that beep device) and compare one to another.We can draw further conclusions from our observations.. if the sound is explicitly emitted from the left loudspeaker and the right is silent, we are to hear the sound on our left ear.BUT!!!We also hear it on our right ear aswell, not as intense as on left, but still.It is exactly this 2nd ear that enables us from predicting the correct distance from the emitter or the source of the sound.When we do the same thing on stereo-headphones we will hear the same sound in our left earcup.But this time we will not hear anything in our right earcup as it is silent, therefore it is more difficult to predict the correct distance as this is not natural sound or binaural.Now we have come to this thing called localization in space.All of this is still just STEREO and has nothing to do with actual 3d reproduction.

The suggestion on solving this problem with headphones is called NATURAL CROSSOVER or NATURAL CROSSFEED.The solution is somewhat similar to 2,3 or more way loudspeakers that are using crossovers, where you conect each Band-pass loudspeaker with another to form a unity or to complete the entire spectrum 20-20khz.Similar thing you want to achieve at headphones, you connect that 2nd channel or mix it up with another to mimic this effect to hear on both ears.This just feels 3dish, but its not 3d!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_crossover

heres one random article on HRTFPIWUAHP and CROSS-TALK whateverthefuck:
http://interface.cipic.ucdavis.edu/sound/tuto...tml#models


YOU DO THIS THROUGH HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE!!

you do not need anything special to try this out, really.Your shitty Realtek sound card already has this shit implemented.You just need to pick whether you want 2CH loudspeaker or SPECIFICLY the headphone preset and thats all there is huehuehue)))

http://monk.thelonio.us/images/monk_thelonio_...5B8%5D.jpg

This UI seems updated, I don`t have a bee on my interface, but rather a ball instead.But it is intended for testing this same positional sound.Simply cover one earcup and follow its movement, then the same with another.Ofc different manufacturers have their own implementations like Dolby,X-FI and what not, but esentially approach is the same.

Those that are sceptical or maybe dislike their current drivers I`ve googled out this software aswell, you might try out:

http://www.ohl.to/about-audio/audio-softwares/crossfeed-and-eq

http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/salles/listen/download.html

you can see the same "example picture" and from what I see same narcy-farcy expressions like HRTF and whatnot.. don`t ask me if its any good, because I don`t know, neither do I care and I certainly don`t intend on testing this shit either.This french apparently provides some libraries aswell along with his software, I didn`t read through this site, but I`m guessing he explains everything in understandable way.. and theres shitton of other software too, just google it out.

those that don`t trust into software can buy amplifiers with already implemented crossover filter liek these:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec08/articles/SPLphonitor.htm

or if you feel like it you can even make one yourself instead..

http://headwize.com/?page_id=774

and about real 3D reproduction.I am assuming that OpenAL or whatever the standard is used in Quakelive, supports more than just 2CH(WHICH I DOUBT IT DOESEN`T AS MY RIELTEK HAS 8CH HUEHUE))), which can be a start of a debate on real 3D reproduction.

what's your point after all?

stupid question?

HRTF in OpenAL does everything you explained. no?

no

HRTF is nothing, but an expression or terminology used in Psychoacoustics to address to this positional problem with headphones, nothing else.It has nothing to do with software in the first place.Why the fuck did I write that wall of text if its still not understandable???

just read couple of more times step-by-step and actually try to connect things I`m talking about..

simply open your Realtek driver look for Demo sounds 3D and listen to it.Go back to Sound INPUT/OUTPUT or its just indicated as I/O and switch between 2CH and Headphones presets.Listen to one and another.The difference you will notice is to be referred as HRTF and subsequently applies to all applications you run on your pc.

If mcdonalds Syncr0n was to go through this thread reading all those proposals and whining about "omg I wish this was in QL!?!?" and what not.I bet he`d bitch-slap himslef I could hear it over the Atlantic through wire on my HRTF headphones.

NIGGA WAAAAT!?!?!?

AND AS ALREADY STATED, YOU DO NOT NECESSARILY NEED TO APPLY IT THROUGH SOFTWARE, BUT CAN ALSO DO IT THROUGH HARDWARE.

THERE IS A REASON WHY I CAPS THE IMPORTANT THINKS BRO. PLS READ CHEERFULLY!!

RTHF
HTFR
FRHT

PSIUHPRUHRTUHRTSIFZSGFZ

you don't understand.
if the game itself doesn't support positional audio, your headphone preset in ur cheapo soundcard, won't change the fact that the ingame sound will be still very inaccurate.
even if it mixes the channels like you described with your speaker example.

no it is infact YOU who doesent understand and youre slowly becoming irritating at this point as you clearly have no clue what I was writting about?It is nice that you take critical stance from time to time, but there is no point going through a wall with your head while someone politely provides you plenty of literature and sources that answer just about every question addressed in this thread.

Once again it has NOTHING to do with the Game, your stupid computer or OpenAL,Dolby3D or whatever the standard you are using PERIOD!!It is HRTF is still plain stereo, it only reflects the other channel you are already receiving to the next cup to a certain cutoff frequency.

Now that I have answered literally EVERYTHING, do yourself a favour.Take a couple of days or month if you need to, to really study out these things properly.. THEN you can come back and ask me some real questions, agree!!?

EDIT:Its a way of tricking your brain thinking that this is positional sound and thats it what is it that you fail to understand here is beyond me??It is why im telling you this is psychoacoustic

Its a way of tricking your brain thinking that this is positional sound and thats it what is it that you fail to understand here is beyond me??It is why im telling you this is psychoacoustic

the thing that "tricks" my brain is the HRTF algorithms used in the openal engine. the sound sources ingame are mapped to the objects also with x,y and z coordinates, but it needs a soundengine which translate it to positional audio on headphones.

and the others things you brought up weren't in question at all.

it's like you wrote some 10000 words which doesn't make anything clearer, or correct anything what others wrote.

DEAR GOD,

THE RETARDEDNESS!!?!?

IMMENSEEEEE

What algorithms??
What openal engine, wtf???
What mapped sound sources ingame?????
What coordinates,axis or whateverthefuck!?!?!?

wtf is this mumble that you put together??I dont even..

even if I wrote a thick book and bash your skull with it, Im afraid It wouldnt help you a bit.

See, right now I am struggling here, trying to dumben myself down to your level, trying to figure out what is it that you want to tell me and Im not getting it??I am starting to fail miserably here.And Its not like it bothers me in any way, because it doesent you know, I want to help you out, I really, REALLY do!!But its becoming difficult for me to form constructive sentences, that would provide adequate answers, do you understand this??Im doing my best I can to explain this thing to you in the most understandable way possible.So bitch pls, put some effort in it as I apparently dont have the necessary pedagogical neither linguistical skills to explain this to you in any other way or should I just draw it for you instead???

after swiftly skimming this HRTF shit once again here are the following quotes I find interesting:

1.

A head-related transfer function (HRTF) is a response that characterizes how an ear receives a sound from a point in space; a pair of HRTFs for two ears can be used to synthesize a binaural sound that seems to come from a particular point in space.

slightly below if you scroll theres this "RECORDING TECHNOLOGY"

2.

Recordings processed via an HRTF, such as in a computer gaming environment (see A3D, EAX and OpenAL), which approximates the HRTF of the listener, can be heard through stereo headphones or speakers and interpreted as if they comprise sounds coming from all directions, rather than just two points either side of the head. The perceived accuracy of the result depends on how closely the HRTF data set matches the characteristics of one's own ears.

Now please, lift your obese ass from your chair and slightly lean towards your monitor so you will see that image Ive posted better.Try to focus on one color, but really, FOCUS as best as you can.You dont need to look at both colors, just one, if youre a feggit you can go withhh.. lets say purple??See theres a reason why one line is THICKER than the other and why both of these lines fall on both of your ears wouldnt you agree???Now read carefully the thing I wrote below about and how it reflects in different ways to each loudspeakers and headphones.Now return to 1. from this WIKI article and read again, thx.

now lets move on to 2.
First thing you notice is how the author is referring to various library implementations A3D,EAX,OpenAL and what not theres plenty of others too, maybe some nerds of you that actually follow this crap, can help me out and mention some more of these fancy abbrevations, Ive heard from here the CMSS-3D and and.. lets just say theres shitton of it..

and then when I check OpenAL wiki site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAL#Implementations

theres even more.. this kapca guy just discovered one of these called OpenAL Soft.There at the same place you have this thing called AeonWave-OpenAL and Rapture3D OpenAL Driver.. the shit just doesent stop.Like said, PLENTY to pick from!!And each of these developers might interpretate solutions to real enviorment problems in their own way.But the problems that are questioned and polemicized essentially stay the same.Do you understand this or have I lost you already??

the op himself says that sometimes it works and other times it doesent.Hes not even sure himself roflmao.Bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with your Quake in the first place, never was, you do not need to install anything neither does ID have to do anything as some sort of HRTF is already implemented in your pc.But you can however install different libraries you find on internet or different software and you will notice the difference between each of them.Whether or not you see this as an improvement is up to you.Another difference between these software is that with some you can adjust or bias them while others are fixed or provided as suggestion..

So you see it is actually like this.. We can take a computer mouse for example as this will be understandable to everyone.You know you can adjust/bias sensitivity through several ways like:

a.(Hardware)You can physically move the DPI buttons on your mouse and change the sensitivity

b.You can alter DPI through mouse drivers and/or razerdriver scale etc.

c.Or maybe you just dont need software and adjust the sensitivity in Windows mouse scale

d.You can also adjust your sensitivity through ingame input like we do in Quake /sensitivity

ANY OF THESE WILL AFFECT YOUR INGAME SENSITIVITY

ARE YOU GETTIN THIS PICTURE BRO!??SOMETIMES ITS GOOD TO MAKE A FEW STEPS BACKWARDS SO YOU CAN SEE THE WHOLE PIC BRO..

so is the same case with this HRTF joke.It is irrelevant what kind of software youre using, because it affects your further applications on your desktop.You might find something to work for you and other things might not.Bottom line is there is nothing wrong with QL and I dont even understand why you couldnt make this OpenAL Soft work with QL in the first place??Why dont you just install it and listen for yourself or try other stuff that you can find laying on the web??

Heres some similar random article I found:

http://www.stereo2go.com/topic/is-it-all-in-y...--part-two

but I didnt like his scant explanation, neither did I like his illustrative images..

I dont understand why is that picture so confusing for you I didnt even draw it myself lol.I just figured a Tloris view would be easier for layperson to imagine the process as you can see the clear distance, but I guess I am wrong..

I stole it from here http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/monitors-...ng-574584/

Psychoacoustics covers various fields from human psychology,anatomy to acoustics...

With natural crossover we just want to "trick" our brains that, we are listening to stereo-Loudspeakers, while it is infact the stereo-Headphones we are listening at.

thats all, nothing more to add.

TL;DR

no worries nothing wrong with being slow, ur momma says ure special. :D

dude, you don't add anything to this topic, so save your time.

other games support positional audio on headphones(directly or through openal/eax/DS3D), while QL and default Q3 do not.

end of story.

no not really, but you can keep telling that to yourself if it makes you feel better..

and its not like the first time same characters have been involved in such sophisticated scientific discussions including yourself.. poor laypersons like me. :D

http://esreality.com/post/2208380/oleds-incoming/#pid2213720

you have no personal experience with this it seems, just looked up some articles, and now you start to teach everybody about it with your asshole attitude?
LOL

yes, it is indeed a major difference if a game supports 3d-positional audio or not.
if it doesn't, then you can turn on cmss-3d, dolby headphones, download all the shit that blend the stereo channels together on your headphones, but you won't get anything good out of the sound and the localization of soundsources in a 3D-environment whatsoever.

Well unfortunaly for you, you couldnt be more wrong.You dont know me.See, I have quite some experience right in this field, altho I preffer to stay humble and not brag about it, I dont feel like I have to prove anything to anyone, especially to some randoms on internet.I DESIGN AND BUILD audio peripherals myself, I do this in my spare time for a joke.Its a hobby to me.Audio is just an amateur state of electronics and I am an amateur myself, I shit you not but there havent been anything new since 1930s.So you see Im not trying to give lessons to anyone here, I know exactly I was gonna trigger a shitstorm with my post, but I dont care.Im just blowing away the mist around this topic while debunking people that stand behind it. :D

In fact right now as Im typing this, Ive decided to make a respond to this silly thread, as it doesent give a clear answer what exactly is there to be improved, that can be attributed due to inexperience of op tho??Just a demonstration video HOW-TO, but I will need some time to design and construct the thing, I will also publish entire documentation along with the video and give further explanation, but until then u should chill ur brain and be patient, agree!!?I promise that you will be able to notice a clear distinction in improvement, I will try to see it done in the next month, couple of weeks..

again ur QL already has HRTF.. neither do you need to go through complicated OpenAL Softs installation process, if youre looking to update ur libraries.

you can download this for example and it is the same shit, you might not believe this, but its actually free http://adalin.com/

heres a description of it http://www.adalin.com/manual/home.html

apparently it is better than openal soft and it also contains ur dumb HRTF..

HRTF HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ALGORITHMS OR WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU IMAGINE, IT IS NOT A SOFTWARE, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ACTUAL MULTI-CHANNEL SEPARATION EG. 3D SOUND.It is something that exists prior to Quake and before computers themselves were made, do you understand this??

this is like... the 10th time Im repeating one and the same thing I could make an ape understand this until now.

again, QL does not do HRTF calculations or supports anything which do it instead, which is necessary to produce accurate positional audio on stereo headphones.

A couple of weeks/days ago sync himself posted Q3/QL doesn't support positional audio, even the very basics of it (vertical). You can probably find the post easily on his esr account, as he hasn't posted here since we found out about the leak (hiding much).

gg ez no re

the only thing thats ezpz here are your cringing, overburnt brains..

I understand youre butthurt bitch who is supposedly to have some kind of big-caliber audio setup at home, weve already debated through this.. but I cant take you seriously if youre even unable to describe basic fundamentals as OHMS LAW..and quite honestly loose yourself in simple discussion on how to match an amplifier properly.I get it that you might feel threatened by me as you aswell tend to post ridiculous stuff every once in a while when audio related thread popsup.But I just dont respond to this as I dont care and theres simply too many of you kiddies to counter..

A couple of weeks/days ago sync himself posted Q3/QL doesn't support positional audio, even the very basics of it (vertical).

HOLY FUCK, REALLY!?!?!?I didnt know that VERTICALS.. amazing shit, first time I hear, you deserve a medal for such sophisticated phrases, srsly, progressiv-intelekt, verticals,coordinates,axises.. damn bro.

but if Q3=QL, then how come one supports and the other doesent?????????

http://ioquake3.org/

I understand theres this thing down below written as

Surround Sound on all platforms

but this might be a SHOCKER to you, what Im about to tell you.. SURROUND SOUND AND HRTF ARE TWO ESSENTIALY AND ENTIRELY SEPARATED, DIFFERENT NON-RELATED THINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and no im not gonna bother searching for random posts altho I assume I already know what he meant.. but you can paste here if you want to, might clarify a few things yes.

kthx gg))

but if Q3=QL, then how come one supports and the other doesent?????????

Neither Q3 nor QL supports it. ioq3 does but "vanilla" id tech 3 doesn't. It's even clearly stated in the source you provided. Unless you thought QL was based on ioq3? Well, it isn't.

gg ez ez ez

its nice that youre holding his cock like that, especially after reading #85. :D

indeed it is difficult to be american these days.

GG EZPZ FO SHO YO!!

What mapped sound sources ingame?????
What coordinates,axis or whateverthefuck!?!?!?

The coordinates are supplied to OpenAL via the alSourcefv() / alListenerfv() functions, with the AL_POSITION parameter set so that OpenAL knows the position of the sound source relative to the listener.

OpenAL (either hardware or software) can then adjust the thickness and lengths of the lines in your diagrams so that the source can be moved relative to the listener to match the actual in game position of the object relative to the listener, to not just simulate loudspeakers, but to simulate a sound actually coming from somewhere other than the speaker positions.

Sure, you can do what you're describing to make headphones sound more like loudspeakers without any software changes. However everyone else is talking about true positional sound where you control it based on the position of something in 3D space, which a computer is able to accurately simulate.

This isn't done in Quake 3 (v1.32), or in QL (see https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Aren.../snd_dma.c - S_SpatializeOrigin() is probably the closest you're going to find, line ~445)

It has been done in Quake 3 forks (ioquake3 - see https://github.com/ioquake/ioq3/blob/master/c...d_openal.c line ~1286 ).

It has been done in Doom 3 / Quake 4 (see https://github.com/TTimo/doom3.gpl/blob/maste..._world.cpp line ~1741).

such as in a computer gaming environment (see A3D, EAX and OpenAL), which approximates the HRTF of the listener,

This was in the block of text you quoted. However, Q3 1.32 / QL currently does not approximate the HRTF of the listener (which is what is being discussed) because the underlying sound card / OS doesn't have data about where the sounds originate beyond the simple left/right panning of volume that is implemented in S_SpatializeOrigin().

the op simply confused everybody.God knows what he has been installing on his pc.He doesent provide any source neither explanation from the author, therefore I cannot answer what exactly he installed on his pc??

Hi,

I was around at the first paragraph of your post (#59) , when your charming style finally made me stop reading, so I don't know what you have been up to... but please - if you would be kind - how did I "confuse everybody" by testing something I was curious about, and what "source" did I fail to "provide" for you?

ehelo))

It is nice of you that you were able to collect those 2 pieces of nuts below your pee-pee and make a reply.But we both kinda know your curiosity is comming straight out from your bottom hole..

You are the person that actually SHOULD read very very carefully the #59 as literally everything else that has been discussed/posted in here is straight bs.

I wanted to try out positional audio in quake3, and since ioquake3 uses OpenAL, I thought I might give HRTF a go.

this is confusing already at first sentence.Is quakelive not running through Opengl / Openal??

Yes, but it's not likely that the devs have the time/resources to code something like that in sadly.

ioquake3 is really great with this kind of sound (and also with its awesome - but mostly ignored - opengl2 support),

Why does iD have to code anything!?!?!?I though Arena and quakelive are one and the same game, on same OpenAL??What is so special with ioquake3, pls elaborate!??

This should be already "true 3D" now (so with ups and downs too), but it's not that apparent indeed.

this is funny.. apparently. :DD and then these pearls of wisdom below..

yes, I also wonder if the devs of ioquake3 use the third axis in their OpenAL code, or if it's even possible in idtech3's current state. Maybe it's 2D only because there is no data about the third axis at all? I don't know tbh, but it's definitely sounds "3D-ish" as far as I can tell.

no sorry HRTF is not related to actual 3D or any other form of channel separation apart from, 2-channel,IT IS STILL STEREO, therefore any kind of mumbling youve been up to is stupid, just stupid.Do you even know what youre talking about??You seem lost, confusing apples with pears.

OpenAL can't do sound arrival or propagation delays by default (it does do doppler tho, but that's just a basic effect what even Q3's default sound engine can do).

wtf is this!?!?!?I dont even.. wtf???Now Im really, REALLY confused here.What is Q3:Arenas default sound engine I would really like to know??

youre saying it doesent have something "sound arrival or propagation delays" or smth??Are you actually saying it doesent have HRTF??What is it then this shit that youre using right now??

heres a wiki quote:

OpenAL Soft is an LGPL-licensed, cross-platform, software implementation. The library is meant as a compatible update/replacement to the deprecated OpenAL Sample Implementation, as well as a free alternative to the now-proprietary OpenAL. OpenAL Soft supports mono, stereo, 4-channel, 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 output.

And theres fuckalot of other self-contradictionary shit u put up here that doesent even make a slightest sense to me.So its just easier for me to suggest or no, no in fact I AM TELLING YOU to scrap everything starting from #59 upwards.

Neither do I understand why all 3 of you downies immediatly run defending yourselves with phrases like.. VERTICALS, AXISES AND AND COORDINATES HUEHUE))



Im debunking your threads simply because theire not true, regardless of who you are or if it was someone else posting, irrelevant.Its just not true..

http://www.esreality.com/post/1755967/re-psyk...g-headset/

It is nice for me that I encourage ppl into researching problems, but nobody even knew about this before I even mentioned.Its nice that youre interested, but simply absurd when someone from 5th or 6th link in the chain comes back to give me lessons about what 3D actually is while he, himself doesent have a slightest clue, neither ability to explain what it is..

this is not an e-penis competition turd, you do not need to defend yourself from anything neither should you feel embarrased if you dont know something.I dont know many things and I ask if I dont know something.But you dont have a clue about stuff ure debating at and then expect to get applauded.Really, get a grip dumbfuck!?

this is confusing already at first sentence.Is quakelive not running through Opengl / Openal??

OpenGL : yes
OpenAL : no

You can go see Q3's sound system there if you dare :
https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Arena

See #82 for line references and links for openal implementations

OpenGL : yes
OpenAL : no

:D

this is not an e-penis competition turd, you do not need to defend yourself from anything neither should you feel embarrased if you dont know something.I dont know many things and I ask if I dont know something. But you dont have a clue about stuff ure debating at and then expect to get applauded.Really, get a grip dumbfuck!?

That quote is good for the lols, given your lack of replies now that you've realised you are the one who doesn't understand what he's talking about.

I dont have the time to sit here 24/7 and counter every single idiot I happen to stumbble upon..

However your links related to programming field are somewhat pointless and is ridiculous to say the least, from you to expect me what exactly it is that ioquake3 client has implemented????Because I dont know?????I AM NOT A PROGRAMMER MYSELF, but I do have plenty and most certainly more experience about audio itself than you do.

Anyways just for fun I did check whats there at 1286 and did find some "velocity" thing which could relate to HRTF, but I dont know whats supposed to mean.Velocity in itself is to be related with HRTF, yes.But we both know HRTF is simply an abbrevation describing a certain effect known prior to PC-era, therefore it is not software related.I did download the ioquake3 client aswell to try out and the sound does seem more upfront towards the nose instead of plain left/right.But the thing is that theres this difference between 3D ingame space emitter placement and 3D sound reproduction.Last time I checked 3D sound is to be described as each channel per each loudspeaker.Knowing what 3D now is,I am unable to find any sort of information whether or not ioquake3 client supports 4.1,5.1,10.2 or any other form of implementation??????See I am still assuming it is PLAIN 2channel STEREO, which leads me to another conclusion that this is NOT TO BE CONFUSED with actual 3D reproduction, despite some describing it as such, many manufacturers do this, do you understand this now???HRTF however does relate to STEREO-HEADPHONES.The op is severely confusing these two concepts and so do everybody else consequently..

THIS IS WHAT 3D REPRODUCTION IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surround_sound

I was unable to find anything in options/sound apart from effects volume,music volume,sound quality.So again there is a difference between HRTF and actual 3D.. And Im not here proving anything, im simply dismantling false statements.

OpenAL (either hardware or software) can then adjust the thickness and lengths of the lines in your diagrams so that the source can be moved relative to the listener to match the actual in game position of the object relative to the listener, to not just simulate loudspeakers, but to simulate a sound actually coming from somewhere other than the speaker positions.

OpenAL is irrelevant in hardware case wtf??????I understand perfectly what youre trying to tell me with game position tho.What youre trying to say is that the distance from the emitter is fluctuationg, depending on the current position, its variable unlike if I set it as fixed value through software or hardware.This really is the difference in ioquake3.Still this doesent make 2CHANNEL AS 3D..

Sure, you can do what you're describing to make headphones sound more like loudspeakers without any software changes. However everyone else is talking about true positional sound where you control it based on the position of something in 3D space, which a computer is able to accurately simulate.

yes I already know Im right about everything I said, I dont need any confirmation from you, thx.Yes distance from emitter fluctuates..

but this is still crossfeed if its still plain stereo??Difference is that this for example is fixed:

http://www.ohl.to/about-audio/audio-softwares/crossfeed-and-eq

while yours as you say is variable depending on the distance of emitter standing at in game??

But we both know HRTF is simply an abbrevation describing a certain effect known prior to PC-era, therefore it is not software related.

it's just the principle used for realising 3d-positional audio on stereo-headphones, but other than that it's totally unrelated...

oh wait.

Perhaps if you don't understand software, you shouldn't be making sweeping statements about software development, or about APIs, and making incorrect assumptions that you understand wtf you are talking about.

Bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with your Quake in the first place, never was, you do not need to install anything neither does ID have to do anything as some sort of HRTF is already implemented in your pc.

My programming links that you don't understand show that despite your misunderstanding about how software interacts with your sound card, someone from id would have to do quite a lot of work to implement OpenAL support, which you hadn't even realised wasn't done in the stock q3 codebase.

Knowing what 3D now is,I am unable to find any sort of information whether or not ioquake3 client supports 4.1,5.1,10.2 or any other form of implementation??????See I am still assuming it is PLAIN 2channel STEREO

See, there you go again not understanding and making false assumptions.

Quake 3 v1.32 deals with mixing the sounds into a two-channel stereo stream, and that is all it is capable of.

Ioquake3 doesn't do any audio mixing, it simply passes the sounds and distance/velocity data to the OpenAL API installed on your PC, and leaves it up to the sound card developer to supply an OpenAL that outputs it in the best way possible. if you have an OpenAL implementation that supports 5.1 etc, then yes, it will mix to that. This is how creative use OpenAL to sell their sound cards, since their implementation uses their hardware to do this mixing and clearly have the necessary outputs. Your own post quotes Wikipedia saying "OpenAL Soft supports mono, stereo, 4-channel, 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 output".

HRTF is simply an abbrevation describing a certain effect known prior to PC-era, therefore it is not software related

Another false assumption. Software (or firmware in Creatives case I guess) can use the principals of something known about pre-PCs and use it to do clever things that weren't possible without it. Such as manipulating it so that you can simulate sound sources moving around in 3d space...

nonono tony, dont panic, BREATHE. :D

Perhaps if you don't understand hardware, you shouldn't be making sweeping statements about hardware development as now it is clear you have crossed over to a field you dont know.Because there are certain laws of physics that apply in real world and stay the same no matter software or not or what kind.Software simply translates, just like electronics, its merely a tool to execute, these laws however they stay the same and you are to follow them exactly the same as I do, if you are to approache closer towards beliaveble sound.

Quake 3 v1.32 deals with mixing the sounds into a two-channel stereo stream, and that is all it is capable of.

yes ok, weve already established this without you.

Ioquake3 doesn't do any audio mixing, it simply passes the sounds and distance/velocity data

lets rephrase what we concluded from yesterday, just so were not talking in Morse code anymore and everybody else understands aswell..

We know from practice that emitter/source/loudspeaker is to be a static object in real world, that is true, while this same emitter/enemymodel is to become dynamic or moving object in-game.Therefore it would be logical to correlate this distance from emitter to listener/receptor, yes.It is a rather unique charasteristic of ioQ3 client, however esentially to both are applied these same rules that exist in nature, the very same HRTF.The only difference is that your implementation takes this distance variable/fluctuance into account.

in #59 everything stands spot on, including this:

you do not need anything special to try this out, really.Your shitty Realtek sound card already has this shit implemented.You just need to pick whether you want 2CH loudspeaker or SPECIFICLY the headphone preset and thats all there is huehuehue)))

because of this..

http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsVi...;ProdID=44

so you see, HRTF already is applied at every application that we run on our desktop if enabled, including Quakelive,music/video etc.Just not the way ioQ3 does it, but is rather "fixed value", instead of dynamic.The only thing I need to do is pick from 2CH to Headphone option and thats it.

Your own post quotes Wikipedia saying "OpenAL Soft supports mono, stereo, 4-channel, 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 output

So which one of those do I get while on headphones???Im asking you because youre this APIs expert, what do you think??We know that HRTF(head-related transfer function) is specific to headphones and is not to be applied with loudspeakers.Tell me, which one?? :D

I understand as 3D this, its a joke picture, but the real examples are done like this in anechoic chambers..

http://hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1554..._sound.jpg

Another false assumption. Software (or firmware in Creatives case I guess) can use the principals of something known about pre-PCs and use it to do clever things that weren't possible without it. Such as manipulating it so that you can simulate sound sources moving around in 3d space...

Whatwhatwhat!?!?Geez, theres this thing where we use more microphones infront of a dummy you know???Kinda separate each channel for each loudspeaker and stuff???

..and tony, dont take my lols and trols personal.Im not attacking your work, its just that im not gonna take shit from clueless randoms over internet telling me "no you dont understand..", the same way as you wont about your APIs or whatever it is that youre doing.To me personally that picture alone explains everything, just though I should explain things so others would understand it.And the people that responded feel threatened by me, because they had minor escalations with me.I just didnt want to make a big deal out of it, thats all..

Im guessing this pretty much sums it up tony.. nice chit-chat. <3

WTF you still on about?

you didn't even know or accept that there are games with proper positional sound on headphones, and that there are games without.

GTFO already with all the shit your trying to teach, which has nothing to with this subject, and doesn't do anything in regards of what supports positional sound on headphones.

make up your own theory of how things should work in your audio world, and neglect the facts about games having to support positional audio as much as you want otherwise.

shut the fuck up clueless kraut, cant waste any more time for you.. COORDINATES,ALGORITHMS

it's like in the other thread you linked(http://esreality.com/post/2208380/oleds-incoming/#pid2213720)
just nitpicking BS, which doesn't lead to anything.

it's funny, because i forgot about you and this thread completly, but yet again you provoke me to reply in a not so kind way which doesn't happen often.

and still:

what's your point after all?

I shall bow out after this post as you are a typical troll, changing your argument and position as your old argument is disproved. Or did you not start this conversation believing that Q3 used OpenAL and that there was nothing different about using ioq3 + OpenAL as demonstrated in #0?

Anyway, I'll leave one last quote of yours to lol at:

Therefore it would be logical to correlate this distance from emitter to listener/receptor, yes.It is a rather unique charasteristic of ioQ3 client, however esentially to both are applied these same rules that exist in nature, the very same HRTF.The only difference is that your implementation takes this distance variable/fluctuance into account.

It's not unique to ioq3, all 3d games that use OpenAL can do this (eg doom3/quake4/warsow etc) - but not QL as it still uses the original quake3 sound engine (which you didn't know exists until after your ignorant rant was corrected. Btw, q3 was released before OpenAL was created so obviously it doesn't use it....)

This purpose of this thread was to test and demonstrate this "unique" feature that you now realise exists and admit has potential merit ("Therefore it would be logical to correlate this distance from emitter to listener/receptor, yes"). So I guess you now agree with us. So where are the pluses to everyone you have been abusive to?

I shall bow out after this post as you are a typical troll, changing your argument and position as your old argument is disproved. Or did you not start this conversation believing that Q3 used OpenAL and that there was nothing different about using ioq3 + OpenAL as demonstrated in #0?

Thats right, you should bow to my definition as clearly youre lacking proper knowledge to even set or describe something like that the way I do, not knowing how audio is to function in real world lmao.What am I changing???Where am I denying you havent done something???Sorry but this is still not 3d surround sound, nope sir, its not.. :D

instead of threshing emty straws, you should teach abcs comments like these..

This should be already "true 3D" now (so with ups and downs too), but it's not that apparent indeed.

yes, I also wonder if the devs of ioquake3 use the third axis in their OpenAL code, or if it's even possible in idtech3's current state. Maybe it's 2D only because there is no data about the third axis at all? I don't know tbh, but it's definitely sounds "3D-ish" as far as I can tell.

clearly indicating to Z-axis on headphones LOL..

So I guess you now agree with us. So where are the pluses to everyone you have been abusive to?

sry cant plus that jewel up there.. :(

and because you seem butthurt, lacking proper backbone I need to ask yet again..

Your own post quotes Wikipedia saying "OpenAL Soft supports mono, stereo, 4-channel, 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 output

So which one of those do I get while on headphones???Im asking you because youre this APIs expert, what do you think??We know that HRTF(head-related transfer function) is specific to headphones and is not to be applied with loudspeakers.Tell me, which one?? :D

so, is HRTF surround sound or it isnt??????????We dont know this yet..

You better /ignore him imo. He is delusional sadly. Once he even tried to seriously convince me that new plasma screens (of those times) are not prone to burn ins (in the first 100 hours or so), and all the ones I saw (and I saw many) were just hallucinations. He just won't listen:(

First of all, before we begin I would like to point out three “off topic” things if I may:
1, I’m grateful for AnthonyJ, FlashSoul and thuNDa for their times wasted on you in this thread, I think you should also thank them (imho).
2, I’m very sorry about your childhood, and please believe me this is really not sarcasm at all, I honestly feel bad if I try to imagine what you have been through in your life.
3, I’m also sorry that I did not have time to reply to the thread earlier.

You are the person that actually SHOULD read very very carefully the #59 as literally everything else that has been discussed/posted in here is straight bs.

No thanks, I read this one and it’s more than enough.

this is confusing already at first sentence.Is quakelive not running through Opengl / Openal??

No, Q3/QL uses OpenGL but not OpenAL.

Why does iD have to code anything!?!?!?I though Arena and quakelive are one and the same game, on same OpenAL??What is so special with ioquake3, pls elaborate!??

See you previously quoted question please, ioquake3 doesn’t use the "stock" idtech3 audio engine (by default) (opposite to Q3/QL), the devs added OpenAL support.

This should be already "true 3D" now (so with ups and downs too), but it's not that apparent indeed.(note: it’s a self-quote from me because your reply was meaningless)

If you would watch the OP video, you could perhaps hear that it’s not very easy to tell. While OpenAL won’t mimic binaural audio by default, it’s still better than idtech3 sound when it comes to positional audio. Perhaps the title was a bit misleading for you, because I did not make a video demonstration about HTRF audio, I only attempted it and I just enabled it to see if it works or not, (and also shared the result with the people here). It was a “test”, and it should be treated such as (btw, I found that it’s doing something in some builds of ioquake3 while it does nothing in some other ones (the latest for example), and that’s why I said it’s not working all the times).

wtf is this!?!?!?I dont even.. wtf???Now Im really, REALLY confused here………………………………..

I won’t continue quoting your lines because others are already answered to you about those and also pointed out why you are wrong on so many levels. There is no point arguing anymore if you refuse to acknowledge basic facts, so I just close with the backstory of it, so you can sleep:)

It goes like this (since you are so interested): The kid here has a laptop and likes to play TF2 and Minecraft a lot. (note: HRTF works beautifully in both games, it's really accurate, not like in the ioquake3 video I posted, but way much better). The laptop (Lenovo G580) doesn’t have a dedicated sound card, just a simple onboard “Realtek HD Audio” chip. He likes to play on my PC too (as much as possible ofc), where he noticed that he can tell where the sounds of the enemies/objects are coming from, but can’t on his laptop. I knew it was happening because I have 3D-sound enabled on my PC’s audio driver, and I looked into if I can enable something similar on his laptop too.
Since Minecraft is using OpenAL, I was looking something related to that and found out about OpenAL HRTF beta code (this was many months ago) and later also about this Reddit thread (which I did not want to link here, because (imo) it’s not nice to link to a more popular site from a less popular one if it’s not really necessary).. Minecraft uses some old LWJGL and OpenAL builds by default so I have to update those every time when a new version comes out, and the last time, I had an idea to give this whole thing a try in ioquake3 which also uses OpenAL, and here we are.

Bye, and nice weekend to you and to all.

edit: typo/wording

tldr; mr.1week burn-in :D

#REKT

UR MOM

this is also nice, but the echo (reflection strenght / level) is way too much imo in this test, it should be much less.

They claim to support materials with different characteristics. In this case it's just a bunch of stone walls, so the big echo is accurate.

"Accurate" would be a little too much imo:) Primary sounds fall off very fast while reflected ones do not (or they add up together in a weird way). Check how rocket explosions can't be heard even if they hit the ground front of the player, while distant things echoing all over the place.
I know the sound engine is probably accurate when it comes to position and/or occlusion, etc... that's why I said it's "nice"... I just think it has been set up in a bad way regarding gameplay usability.

i would still love if something more acuurate replaced current sound engine ... up and down sounds are still confusing at times.

Indeed, that would be awesome, but I'm not really sure if that's really possible with stereo headphones. It's even hard to tell in BF4 sometimes, which has very decent positional audio, probably the best up to this point (btw, it's terrible game imho).