thorin's thoughts include self-majoring

u mad.

As far as I'm concerned, he can major anything he posts, as it's usually good stuff.

We were telling that guy for years to make a reflections video with Anton, yet to this day he keeps failing to deliver. Is that really asking too much? I don't think so. As if esreality would not be the Center of the universe...pfffft :(

maybe he has his own ideas of what is interesting and what not.

nice mr ginger cunt but you forgot T1E

Lay off the sniff, man. Your jaw nearly fell off...

thought i was the only one who noticed that :X

Where's CMSS?

I guess youtube doesn't pay the heating bills ;)

enjoyed this though, good stuff :)

I have a fairly good idea what you mean but I'm still curious what you meant by that.

most people don't wear a scarf and jacket indoors...

haha nice :D

I have a fairly good idea what you mean but I'm still curious what you meant by that.

most people don't wear a scarf and jacket indoors...

This could get tedious rapidly

haha nice :D

edit: wait..

I think strenx and evil deserved to be on the failed bonjwa list. Other than that its a nice vid. This is the best kind of exposure quake can get, maybe some of cs kids try to play it sometimes

+1

thanks thorin

Evil is definitely a contender in my opinion as well. The only problem is that he rose to the top when there weren't that many LANs anymore. But his results are top of the drawer :

- DHW12 : Champion
- QuakeCon13 : Runner-Up
- DHW13 : Third Place
- QuakeCon14 : Third Place
- QuakeCon15 : Runner-Up

He's the only player that was in the top 4 (let alone top 3) in all these last 5 big LANs. He has also of course dominated the online European scene.

He's only missing a small step to get to the top. Some say he has a problem beating Rapha, but aside from QuakeCon15, I don't think that's the case... He won against him in the Final of DHW12, in QuakeCon13, the result of the Final was 2 maps each (Rapha won 3-2 thanks to coming from winners bracket), and in DHW13 the maps were very close. If there had been tons of LANs and he got into the rhythm of them, who knows what would have happened.

His style of play is also definitely worthy of being talked of, taking some unconventional fights and an overall very aggressive approach.

*chempion

Thanks Thorin from me as well. Nice work.

I agree with Anon 100%(full disclosure - I'm a big Rapha fan). Evil is a great, dominant player who just has to take the last step.

Yeah, he even mentioned Latrommi in that list.

It is another immortal

Hé was refering to immortal who was runner up against thresh in quake 2 and failed to be any good in quake3 despite being a God in q2

Not latrommi from 102

just kidding

I think strenx inability to turn 90° would have never let him be consistently at the top in ql. You need to be faster to play out of control propely

It says the last quake-related episode before that was "rapha's game", but on his other series "Reflections", if you haven't watched it, don't miss the episode about Makaveli (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsFTurkykqQ), a very enjoyable interview, I thought.

Good video.

Tho Strenx the best failure of all quake times not on the list? He won the most ZOTAC cups, was in finals or semis many times, even in team modes, from the top duelers he was the only one having such great team play and still top at duel. he beated all the players you mentionned all the time but always choked in semi or finals.

It's always as if his mental stoped him from focusing on the win at the decisive moments. Maybe i am wrong but it certainly looked like that to me.

pretty good video, thorin.

Niceeeeeeeeeee.

it would be a lot more interesting if it was like starcraft case where the scene is so much bigger and pro players have more resources to train and compete.

you said 4-5 players were the best in SC whereas turned out that we have 7-8 in quake.

At the time each one of these guys were peaking they became sponsored and they had something in favour to the rest of players: full dedication. I'm pretty sure this happened in all cases, they became dominant because they simply had more time to prepare and practice than the rest.

Just look at evil, he practiced in the last 2 years more than anyone that's why he was catching up the guys you mentioned.

if many players were pro, it would be much harder and we'd end up having 2 or 3 GOATS.

Probably rapha and cypher showed more than anyone else as far as "top level quake" is concerned.

toxic and evil for 3rd place.

cooller overrated but not as much as fatal1ty or lakerman. Strenx shined at wrong time.

you just had to include classic people from old era because after all they were more relevant than the best quakers of all time.

also nice burn on shaq, he's a fucking clown

Cooller was a very dominant Q3 player for the majority of its competitive life, that shouldn't really be overlooked. Nor should his resurgence in the European scene, (even if he was unable to beat rapha on an international level) he played very well in 2010-2011. fatal1ty is truly overrated, and Lakerman was never anything beyond the very beginning. Cooller's earned his place.

I never said otherwise but people go nuts whenever he's mentioned and it's rather because of his persona and fame than his titles.

in other words he became a meme among quake community.

But well deserved meme.

His talent, unconventional play, broken english and cocky but funny attitude made him almost universally liked.

Agree with Thorin's insights. Spot on.

However, the 'almost there' Bonjwas he left out Dahang. Dahang has come so close a number of times and has beaten all of the players, but never crossed the final hurdle in the finals. Dahang skill wise has it all.

Lakerman - Thorin mentions Lakerman in quake3. I was in touch with Lakerman during this time and he said he hardly practised for the quake 3 tournaments because he had just begun playing poker seriously and it made more sense financially to put his time into that. We all know Lakerman reached 7 figures money wise so it was a conscious decision by him rather than a lack of skill to succeed in quake3.

Come on, DaHang is the opposite of a champion-type

nice, love to see more quake videos keep it up

I consider czm a bonjwa. He was unbeatable on aerowalk for 5 years and unbeatable on tourney 4 for 2-3 years. I cant think of any other player with such robotic precision play in duels either, maybe only evil. If czm took quake as seriously as the other guys in the list he could have stayed at top for 5 more years since 2004 or so. I would say the problem for czm was when he was the best, quake 3 itself was close to death, so there just was not that many lans.

but rapha is the best player ever. Whats amazing about rapha is that all other players in this list got practice vs top players, rapha only got to train with just plain above average players, did not have great aim but outsmarted everyone. Rapha is lightyears by far the best out of control player I have ever seen and probably in top 3 in control players, and only one in this list that was prepared for any situation any time, you just cannot surprise him.

czm is was elite in every game mode. rapha wasn't.

where is evil, winz and dahang (bonjwas or failed)

czm is definitely a bonjwa : D

reflections with cooller & evil please ! :DDDDDDD

Would be nice to have the bonjwas of TDM.
All stars, aAa, pzz, iC, forze, 102 etc

you forgot yourself :D

Haha :)

yeah bonjwa is not determined by his statistics (as thorin said), but he dominates the scene for a long period of time, with SUCCESSIVE TITLE WINS, and extremely high win %. being a bonjwa doesn't have anything to do with being a pioneer, innovator or game changer.

if starcraft community did what thorin did and dished out bonjwa title to everyone who had won something or innovated something they'd have 50 bonjwas and the title would mean nothing. only reason why thorin's list is spot on is because there's been 10 players that actually meant something in quake throughout quake's history and the scene didn't change for over a decade so you basically can't miss with your pick.

for me the real bonjwas of quake, that fit the bill 100% are fatality & rapha.

this reminds me of when faceit hosted legends cup and invited stermy to the cup just because he founded faceit or something.

edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/105...s-and-ends there we go, what makes a bonjwa. as you can see, it takes more than to just be a legend to become a bonjwa.

Shouldn't this be called Bonjwas of Chess?

Next dreamhack summer/winter should host a token quake tournament with a BO101 featuring Cypher vs Rapha.

Get 2gd to cast if he's still alive and DDK to join when he doesn't cast cs )))

cypher doesnt play quake atm but rapha does so that wont be close :D

nice work again brother thorin

i would like to see this projects from you in the future:

reflections with 'dizzle'

refelections with 'av3k'

thorin thoughts - does quake hold a future as a 'classic' esports title? a grown man sport perhaps?

thorin thoughts - esreality - carmac??? scoobyd? teen queen? sujoy?

just my thoughts. keep it up brother.
appreciate the work you do for us and keepin the funk alive in quake

=]

=]<o~~~~

+1 av3k

also add Ash to the list

I am quite familiar with these players, could you do one on general AFPS?

Games like UT, Painkiller, and doom must have (had) their own bonjwas, but those are less known to the esreality crowd I think.

EDIT:

Also, no mention of Jibo or Fox, whom might not fit the bill, but always got so close.

This piece would've been better off called the "Bonjwas of Quake 3" cause that's what it essentially is.

Both Quake 1/Quakeworld and Quake 2 evolved a ton in terms of gameplay in the coming years after privileged players like Thresh had left the scene. Understandably of course, as the big money investors moved on to the next big game in the series once it was released.

The prestige however remained in those previous installments for many years to come and that's when the real "Bonjwas" of these said games emerged. Now, I'm no expert on Quake 2 but as far as Quakeworld dueling goes, two names comes to mind:

http://wiki.quakeworld.nu/Dag
and
http://wiki.quakeworld.nu/Griffin

When it came down to it, these two stood head and shoulders above the rest and it showed in a legendary set of 1on1 finals during QHLAN 3, 4 and 5 (the biggest LAN in Quakeworld at the time, gathering a couple of hundred QW players each event).

Griffin not only edged Dag by taking home the title during QHLAN 3 and 5. He also found success prior (shared 1st place in another big LAN tournament on Cottelan) as well as afterwards, beating old and emerging new elite duelers alike, claiming his third title during QHLAN 6. Quite the feat considering QHLAN 6 was being attended by pretty much every single elite clan at the time. Oh, and he was a dial up modem player for most part of the first half of the 2000's...

While you are obviously right, Thorin obviously went over the Quake history in a chronological order, focussing on the version with the biggest audience at that time.

Have a plus anyway for your additional information

you fail to understand the bonjwa concept, like everyone else in this thread, including the ginger who started it.


for one, the concept barely translates to quake and when you change the requirements to become bonjwa to fit quake, it ain't even a bonjwa anymore cause what you're doing is just counting legends that won more than other legends.

Well then, Mr. Know-it-all, how about you enlighten us all regarding the term "bonjwa" instead of acting like a total asshat?

I'll admit though, I never even heard the word before seeing it in this post. I just ran with the definition of the term Thorin came up with.

I've had a pretty extensive chat with Rehepapp on this topic few days ago. Basically, it's really hard to put it in to a strict definition as there was only 1 bonjwa title of scbw given out AFTER the term was coined.

So to start off, bonjwa translation would be something like "the one", meaning there can be only 1 bonjwa at a time. then the player with bonjwa title has to be virtually unbeatable. sure he can lose a game here and there, but the general consensus is that he has to be unbeatable and perceieved as such over his period of dominance. back to back tournament wins is another criterium. i think the last bit is the most important tho, he has to combine all the aforementioned and has to have some mystique or magic in his play so to speak.

what you people are listing, along with thorin, is just some legends who won more than others, applying criterium like innovation, etc etc that's hardly relevant. yeah, bw bonjwas dominated through innovating and shifting the meta, but there was also bonjwas whose domination wasn't a consequence of innovation, but just raw skill. for example: flash. what i want to say is, it doesn't matter for a bonjwa to innovate, contribute, have sick aim (or in terms of brood war: micro & macro) and what not. you can do all that and still never become a bonjwa. proof: jaedong, bisu of the most prominent ones.

so let's see who thorin listed:

1) thresh - no clue bout the guy, never watched him play. i'd say from my knowledge of qw the undisputed bonjwa can only be milton.

2) fatality - alright, let's agree he is like the boxer of quake and was unbeatable or what not. if nothing else, he can be the honorary bonjwa, but his stats suggest he was the real deal. on the other hand, i wasn't in the community at the time and have no idea how he was perceived and i can only make a judgement based on his stats so feel free to prove me wrong.

3) zero4 - i guess you can say 2001 was zero4's year of dominance, and he could be a bonjwa, but I see only 2 tournament wins for him in that year, then totally not on the radar in 2002 and another qcon win in 2003. don't think he was nearly as dominant as thorin suggests by looking at the stats, or even considered unbeatable at any point in time during his prime so i think he'd fall off my list.

4) cooller - you have to put cooller on the list only for the fact that your target audience is ESR and they'd call major bullshit on any list of greatest players related to quake if he wasn't on there. that's pretty much the only argument going in favor of cooller as a bonjwa. aside from that, cooller while still a legend is nowhere near bonjwa. first of all, during his dominance period of 03-05 he was never unbeatable. second of all, he only managed to win 2 major tournaments and they were 2 years apart (eswc 03 and eswc 05). that pretty much does it for cooller, sorry but not even close to a bonjwa.

5) toxjq - we're taking a period of q4 to establish his right to bonjwa period. so let's see, he managed to dominate a dead game / scene winning over some new talented players (like cypher) and losing to players on his level (like cooller). so yeah, he was winning so much only cause there wasn't much competition.

6) cypher - when i first thought of him, i was 100% sure he's a bonjwa. the guy's playstyle is magical, when he dominates - he crushes. he won a shitload of major tournaments, even some back to back. in both bonjwa concept and accomplishments he's like the jaedong of quake. and also not a bonjwa cause you always knew there's a player that could beat him. if there was no rapha, he'd definitely be a bonjwa.

7) rapha - THE most untouchable, invincible, wrecking machine champion. the flash to cypher's jaedong. why isn't cypher a bonjwa? cause there was rapha and rapha built his bonjwa-ness on top of destroying all the legends, cypher, cooller, avek included.

so now to sum it up, the real bonjwas of quake, fatality & rapha and perhaps milton.

edit: seems i'm wrong about tresh, but as i said i don't know a thing bout the guy aside from the fact that he won a ferrari. seems he did really wreck and shit.

edit2: at first i was too lazy to type this out in the original post but here it is in a tl;dr form. imo, the biggest mistake thorin made in his list is treating all quakes equally important, while they're not. only quakes that actually mattered were quake 3 and quake live to an extent. qw & q2, along with q4 are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. the period that should be taken in to determining greatest & bonjwas should only be q3 & ql era.

dude, he's a journalist, facts will never be the highest priority, only content which attracts readers matters.

tbh, thorin's been butthurt about bonjwas since 2011. he's probably agitated that his opinion wasn't and still isn't considered relevant in determining a bonjwa status for korean progamers so he's trying to find a community desperate enough to accept his viewpoint and give thorin the bonjwas he wants to see.

Much better post, mate. Happy to plus it.

As for Thresh, he was a smart guy, switching up the game before the scene could catch on too much and twice at that. Not sure what happened in between Quake 2 and 3, although it's possible the scene simply caught up to him, with LakermaN roaming early on and all.

Really not sure how Milton came to be in your summary though, especially since you thought QW didn't matter in the "grand scheme of things"? ;)

milton came in my summary as "perhaps" and only in the sense of "well if i really have to put someone from qw i'd put him".

but yeah, qw / q2 are irrelevant, along with q4 imo. q3 / ql is where all the real/ actual competition happened.

I got the big "if" but not the choice of player. Then again, I'm probably mentally stuck at debating the greatest players in QW history rather than whoever fits into the "Bonjwa" concept. Not sure he'd fit either glove though.
Milton had some success, no doubt about it, but his crowning achievement came early with winning Duelmania 3 (when the scene was still going strong). After that there wasn't much of anything up until 2010 when the scene was already in decline. Granted he won Ownage 3 this year but that was pretty much it for him.

Tbh i was just looking at stats from qw wiki and all I see from 2003 till now is first places xD but ye, could be totally wrong.

I highlighted pretty much everything worth mentioning regarding duels in my previous post. A vast majority of the 1st places are from 4on4 (TDM) leagues. Add to that at a later stage of the game when prominent teamplayers began to turn inactive or quit altogether.
I'm aware knowing QW history or the scene might not be your number one priority. Just clearing things up a bit.

Not to mention rikoll and milton.

seriously, has there ever been a Quake player as dominant as Milton?

Only toxjq is really comparable.

They were both good players, especially Milton, but they came into form late in the game as the scene was in decline.

bonjwas

sawj nob
sausage knob
dick

thorin is gay.

who was bonpari of q2 tho? i thought damiah / purri were kinda on top of things for most of q2

I've gotten the impression that bonjwa is (1) mostly about a player manifesting himself as level above his competition in the general consciousness of the community (2) WHILE having the stats to back it up. So this makes it hard to give bonjwa statuses to players posthumously because it's near impossible to judge what the general community's consensus or mindset was. I don't think the western pro gaming scenes and pro gaming cultures are poetic enough to do the term justice.

Also, I don't think cooller's or cypher's (QL at least) mentions are justified because apart from winning couple tourneys here and there, they were not consistently winning back to back. They might be the best players of those periods, but bonjwa is more than just the best player. Picking tox also makes me a little uneasy because yes in Quake 4 he would qualify as a bonjwa (probably the prime example of bonjwa in Quake), but was Q4 popular enough in the community for that?

not sure if srs
the beginning of q4 had a lot of talent going at it.
these guys plus many more(dkt, immortal, garpy, cypher, av3k, gellehsak, etc)

How big part of the total Quake community actually played it? I see Q4 something that people just played for money, a slightly more popular version of Painkiller. A game that got ditched the moment the money was gone does not apply in my eyes.

What I was trying to hint at is that half of assigning bonjwas is an e-sports folklore/culture thing which is done by the community as a whole. Western e-sports doesn't have the kind of folklore necessary for it. And even when we want to butcher the term and apply it for Quake then I'd argue that Q4 (as with Painkiller) didn't have big enough community outside of the pro circle for it.

the average esr poster and quaker is terrible at duel.
does it really matter wtf they were doing for the 1.5 years that q4 had a good scene?


cypher>rapha btw

Why do you think toxic dominance didn't transfer to q3/ql. Not implaying anything, just wanna hear your opinion

he stopped caring?

Could be. My guess is he couldn't top others player in a game they are more familiar with. Like, he was the only one who cared so much for q4. My opinion on this is mostly irrelevant tho

Lg and mg where really powerfull. Also no steps while sliding means less rockets in the face. Also big maps r good for tox.

He stopped caring, even said so himself, just wanted to bet on horse races with his dad and brother.

less tournaments and money.

Saying who is the best player - no. Deciding bonjwas - I think yes. I'll say again, I'm strictly talking in the context of bonjwas and trying to apply it for Quake. Q4 was a soulless game.

Anyways, this shit doesn't work posthumously so doesn't matter.

When Quake is not solved - Rapha>Cypher

His habit of scratching his nose is really annoying.

happens when you do coke.