dpi has absolutely no relationship with 1-to-1 pixel precision :/

Should i write "i need to use that dpi to keep my ingame sensitivity like i like with 1-to-1 pixel precision"? Please, if you cant tell me anything on subject, dont write ok?

dpi has absolutely no relationship with 1-to-1 pixel precision :/ nOObiq

you're dumb

ok lets see who of us is dumb.. dpi is how fast cursor will move when i have 1-to-1 pixel precision. am i wrong?

yes

tell me what i am wrong at?

You don't know what 1:1 means and over using it the wrong way. There you go.

May be you are right.. I've seen it being used for what i use it in teamliquid forum. So I assumed 1-to-1 pixel precision is when one count of mouse(cpi, dpi) makes cursor move for one pixel on screen(6th notch in windows panel by default with no acceleration etc). Please tell me what it means if I were wrong.

Well 3d games are measured in degrees, not pixels. Your DPI and precision remains the same no matter what resolution you play at, although you may be able to notice that your mouse has become more imprecise at higher resolutions. However, that said, you would only notice this on a high sensitivity with a low DPI. 400dpi is fine for low/medium sens.

I also don't seem to understand what you are on about, how would having 1 DPI relate to 1 pixel help you in any way? I have an Abyssus and I'm using it at 450dpi on a 1920x1200 screen. All that happens is that the mouse moves slower.

If you are talking about having it so that 1cm on the screen measures 1cm on your mouse, well then using DPI and pixels is also pointless, since you may have a different screen, i.e. a 19" screen or a 27" screen would be completely different.

The theoretical benefit would be that the same movement of the mouse would always represent the exact same movement on the screen and not for example 1 inch with the mouse results in a movement on the screen of 233 pixels the one time and 234 pixels the next time.

But because of different reasons you can't really achieve that and actually it doesn't matter. :D

injx gave the formula once to achieve such an effect, for example sens around 3.25 will give you stable 2 mouse counts per pixel in the middle of 800x600 screen and so on
made a calculator once, here it is http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11777259/dpi_formula.xls

Yea but it's usability is still limited.

You have the limited sensitivity options because you can't set CPI in fine enough steps and the inaccuracy of the mouse because of not 100% stable CPI.

I think by 3D games you mean 3D actions, shooters etc. But i am playing Starcraft 2, and there you still have cursor, like in 2D games. Also, it has the same issue as windows control panel has - if you change sensitivity from default value, it will cost you big loss of precision.

If you disable all acceleration, and use 6th notch in windows control panel, you will get what I call 1-1 pixel precision. Each cpi counted by your mouse will result in one pixel cursor movement on screen. Its what most of advanced users and gamers recommend.

Yes, you are right, all that happen if I have lower cpi is my cursor will move slower. But I need to use nearly 800 cpi for Starcraft 2 at least. I cant use higher cpi and lower sensitivity or lower dpi and bigger sensitivity - like I said before i will have big loss of precision.

No i am not talking about 1cm on pad = 1cm on screen i never said that. I am talking about one cpi = one pixel on screen in 2d mode/3d games with cursor.

Please tell me what do you think 1-to-1 pixel precision means. Like you said before i am wrong and i dont complain, but please tell me.

You can adjust the sensitivity in the Abyssus Driver in 10% steps but that doesn't really help you because it's also interpolated allthough 50% (same speed as 900 CPI would be) shouldn't be a big problem.

im pretty sure all custom dpi in advanced mice are using some interpolatrion algorithms aswell so it doesnt rly differ from setting it via razer sensitivity (by custom i mean dpi != max dpi/(2^integer) for example like 441 or whatever on a 400/800/1600 mouse)

I don't know yet what the sensor actually does when you change the CPI (maybe soon) but I'm pretty sure it's "better" than the sensitivity settings of the mouse.

With the a4 tech x-718bk mouse it actually worked incredibly precise. I would for example set up 446 dpi horizontally and enotus mousetest would show those 446 dpi with precision of a few single digits.
other mice I had/have were incredibly unprecise, like salmosa having 750 dpi@supposed 800 dpi.

I didn't make any more tests yet because I didn't see a useful application for precise dpi...

Pah, I don't really care if I get the exactly the CPI I have set. :D

A4Tech, the king of interpolation (not meant in a good way).

DPI stands for dots per inch, it is a measurement, so when I said 1cm = 1cm on the screen, I meant exactly that. If I need to translate it for you, 1 dot per inch = 1 pixel on the screen, but this is completely arbitrary due to the reasons I listed earlier.

What are you talking about with this "magical 6th notch gives you 1to1". It's just the default setting in Windows, and it's NOT 1to1. The only "true" input would be raw input, not the 6th notch in windows. (As this is still being interpreted through the OS, just like any other setting you put it to, regardless whether it is the truest representation of the mouse.)

You didn't say you were talking about Starcraft 2 and this is mostly a FPS site, but I do understand what you want now.

You are saying that you want to use the default settings in windows (6th notch), but 400dpi is too low, and 1800dpi is too high, therefore you want to set a custom DPI.

You don't want to just change the sensitivity in-game or in windows because this will lead to "imprecision". I understand that RTS players generally use quite high sensitivities, therefore using 400dpi and making the sensitivity higher could be a worry for you. However, I would most likely just use a higher DPI such as 1800, and then lower the sensitivity in windows itself. As I said, regardless of what notch it's on, it's still being interpreted by the OS anyway, so scaling down won't cause a lack of precision, in fact 1800dpi scaled down would be more precise than 800dpi.

DPI stands for dots per inch, some call it CPI(counts per inch) i think we all know that. If you translate 1 dpi to 1 pixel on screen to 1cm=1cm on screen i have to ensure you that your translation is wrong. I never wanted to translate it like that.

What am i talking about with "magical 6th notch". Here is a table of windows sensitivity notches:
1 1/32
2 1/16
3 1/4
4 1/2
5 3/4
6 1
7 1.5
8 2
9 2.5
10 3
11 3.5
Its how much pixels windows moves cursor for every 1 pixel mouse reports. Of course its only right when acceleration is off. All gamers and even mice developers recommend leaving windows sensitivity at default value.

"in fact 1800dpi scaled down would be more precise than 800dpi" - wrong. Windows will just drop every second pixel reported by mouse. With "magical 6th notch" it will at least not drop pixels reported by mouse.

I know raw input and even DirectInput would be better, but lots of strategies and Starcraft 2(unfortunatelly) use that scheme.

I still didnt see why did you call myself wrong with my term "1-to-1 pixel precision", as i didnt see your explanation for it.

I just read your post another time and i think i got what you mean by 1-to-1 pixel precision :) Wasnt able to read your post well first time because i am at work now and people disturbing me. Sorry thought.

No problem, I was going to reply earlier, but I didn't think it was worth the effort going through it again :P

With regards to windows dropping DPI if it's not 1 to 1. This isn't correct. For example, lets say the DPI on a screen was 800dpi, but your mouse was 1600dpi, and lets say you were moving from one pixel to another on screen.

When you get half way between moving the two pixels, the visual representation would only show either the one pixel or the other, however, your mouse will actually be registering a position between the two pixels. This position isn't dropped by windows, it just isn't represented on screen, because it can't be. This won't make it any less accurate. Also, you could do this:

1600dpi on windows scale 4 = 800dpi on windows scale 6

There is no reason they would feel different, the one is getting twice the input halved and the other is going by 1 to 1.

You don't have to work in multipliers either, because the data being sent by the mouse remains the same, it doesn't drop pixels.

My explanation is a bit bad, but if you ever felt pixels dropping when you had DPI, I am pretty sure it was placebo.

u act like blond girl there :D rofl

"if you cant tell me anything on subject, dont write ok?"

hahahahha lmao :D

ever thought about the fact that your crosshair ALWAYS targets the same pixel on your screen?

even in starcraft 2?

mind has been blown

You can set DPI like that in Mx518 not in any Razer mice.

MX518 is too big for me. I want something smaller + no prediciton. If only i could set 800 or 900 with the Abyssus..

Dont buy razer mice they are using crap sensor's atm in their mice.
If you want 800 dpi mouse you can pick Salmosa but it has 800dpi and 1800dpi only or Diamondback 3G. If you can get them in your country.
Or Roccat Pyra = no prediction/ Roccat Kova = Prediction.

If you only want optical your choice is limited. If you dont mind Laser.
You can pick Sidewinder X3, Copperhead.

Zowie ec2 is good too but Dpi settings are only 3 and has prediction.

Dont buy Kinzu or Xai due to many reasons.
Dont worry too much about prediction in mice you dont notice in game unless it has very heavy preditcion.

GL with your purchase.

Never heard that razer mice use crap sensor now :( I heard about jittering, is that why you call them so? Well, may be you are right, I dont need much problems choosing surface too.

I couldnt find any Salmosa. But it has prediction too, so I am not so disappointed.

I dont mind any laser mice, but Sidewinder X3 looks a bit heavy and i couldnt find any Copperhead.

Please tell why you dont recommend Xai? Anyways, I dont think i will buy it as I want something smaller.

Thank you.

The Xai has slight amounts of positive accel at certain speeds (correct me if I'm wrong here). There are also some random quality control issues (scroll wheel bug, LCD/CPI bug) that only plague certain Xai's. However SteelSeries must have fixed that aspect since people that I've talked to that recently bought the Xai don't encounter the scrollwheel or CPI bugs. It's up to you really. If you're really picky about those problems, definitely stay away from it and go with a different mouse with a proven sensor.

Definitely stay away from the Kinzu. It has huge amounts of positive AND negative acceleration. I don't understand how some people use the thing. If for whatever reason you choose to get the Kinzu, make sure you pick up hyper glides/replacement glides as the stock glides on the Kinzu are made out of a horribly textured plastic.

Thanks again. I'll try to stay away of those mice.

Don't get the Xai hate. Had mine ages and the only thing that's broken on it is one of the side buttons on the right side that I don't use from me having slammed it on the desk in a nerd rage (mehehehehe)

Pos accel is nowhere near as bad as people make out.

Its not just that mate.
Software is terriable for Xai. New firmware is buggy and some functions doesnt work in Xai. Some can live with positive acceleration but he will kill the mouse for random jumps. lol Its a bit heavy too.

If you dont want prediction get IME 1.1 or 3.0 or wheel mouse optical. Sidewinder X3 is light mouse I think lighter than Xai dont worry about its weight.

IME 1.1 and 3.0 look to have only 400 dpi, which isnt enought for me unfortunatelly. I'll check Sidewinder X3 reviews.

dont buy 400 dpi for strategy games . buy 800 and more than u aply markc mousefix and u r pro !

What firmware bugs are you talking about?

I personally agree with you. I don't think the Xai is all that bad and personally for me I never notice the accel and even when I think I do, I find that I experience the same thing with any other mouse so it's either a lack of muscle memory on my part or I'm just imagining things. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the accel isn't there, but I just never experience it in game (then again I use a pretty high sens).

The problems I listed are there for me on my Xai but hardly bother me. I never switch my profile on the LCD screen so it's not a problem, however I wish that it wasn't bugged. The scroll wheel thing isn't a problem either since the delay on the scrolls only happens for me on the up scroll.

The interpretation of how 'bad' it is depends almost entirely on your setup and your playstyle, but to narrow it down a little more then that, if you use accel, you won't notice, if you use less then say 25cm/360 you won't likely notice. You will however instantly notice if you play with lower then say 35 cm/360 without accel. In this situation the positive accel is horrible, while nothing you couldn't get used to. I mean you could get used to a trackball, to a 100 dpi ball mouse or whatever. Sure, strenx will most likely beat me with that still :x The reason noone does that is it lowers your potential, so anyone wants the best possible setup ofc (I'm only saying this because people argue obvious flaws are 'not a big deal').

Well I play with 36cm/360 and it doesn't bother me in the slightest and I can happily do flickshots

I ride my bicycle even without working brakes, I mean everyone dies in the end. that's me deciding if I die of my own stupidity it was worth it. I put my skill on the line and bet my life on it. hah

Out of curiosity what are the perfect control/malfunction speeds on the Xai?

off the top of my head far beyond a speed you could hit. but the positive accel kicks in pretty early. btw it's the same with every mouse that uses the avago 9500 sensor

I tried the Xai again, the accel is easily noticable even with a sens that gives 20 cm/360. Don't get me wrong it is a good mouse, as it doesn't skip and feels very precise, still that doesn't take away the positive accel.

I think Rapha said he's switched onto a Steelseries mouse (didn't mention which) but said his mouse felt like it was changing sensitivity all the time (the quote being "one minute it's smooth and awesome, next it feels like I'm a 80 y/o with arthritis)

Xai on clothpad = occasionally dust on lens = über low sens until you blow away the dust.

Would these look roughly accurate for the Xai?

Perfect Control: ~2ish m/s
Malfunction Speed: ~4+ m/s

I remember the Ramla777 guy saying the perfect control was under 3 m/s in his youtube review, is that accurate?

You can download the users guide from their website which tells you how the Abyssus sensitivity / CPI works:
Downloads page for Abyssus
Link for PDF "Master Guide" user manual.

It shows a 3-position switch on the bottom of the mouse: 450 dpi / 1800 dpi / 3500 dpi.
It shows the customiser (driver) software has a 1 thru 10 sensitivity slider (on my Diamondback 3G this is a 19 position slider that goes 1, 1.5, 2.0, ... 10.0), and also separate X and Y sliders (can be disabled) that go 1 thru 10 (also 19 position).
We can't easily know what the sliders do to the CPI, I can guess they scale n/10, so you would probably get approx 810 if you set the slider to 4.5 / 10 and set the mouse switch to 1800 dpi (for example), and approx 1170 dpi if you set the slider to 6.5 / 10 and the switch to 1800.
[EDIT: A quick test shows +/- measurement error, the sensitivity slider does scale n/10.]

"Pixel perfect" is a problematic term. It means one thing for 3D FPS games, but may mean something else for Starcraft.
I don't don't know enough about how mouse movement changes the in-game display in Starcraft to know if the 3D FPS formulas for "estimated useful DPI" apply to Starcraft also (can you do a 360 spin in Starcraft?)
http://phoon.us/mouse/#dpi

(BTW: The manual mentions "Acceleration".
For my Diamondback 3G, most of what the manual mentioned about acceleration was a lie : The Razer drivers have NO internal acceleration, the Master Accel Control slider is actually a big on/off switch for the Windows EPP checkbox and you need a fix if you want to use EPP=on on the desktop.)

Thanks for the links. They were interesting even thought I have seen most of driver's pages in reviews.

The reason what made me start that thread was one interesting Abyssus review. Reviewer there adjusted dpi switch on bottom of mouse and noticed that in-driver sensitivity setting isnt allowing him to change value above something, when switch is not at maximum. That gave me idea, that in-driver sensitivity is actually changing mouse's dpi, but its's scale is just abstract. I knew its possiby wrong, but I didnt see any mice on market, that can be as good for me as Abyssus would be with dpi adjusting, so I thought to ensure that my idea is wrong here :)

Starcraft 2 is RTS game and mouse is used to move cursor there. Bad thing that in-game sensitivity has same issues as Windows sensitivity - mouse working most precisely when its left on default value(50%), like it is in windows(6/11). I noticed that any software changes to my sensitivity making me less precised(I didnt try razer's in-driver sensitivity, as I have logitech now). So one important thing for me in mouse that I will buy - I need it to have adjustable dpi, or at least a setting close to dpi I am using now - 800.

I am looking for mouse like Abyssus(small/light, centered optical sensor/no typical laser mice issues, no prediction/angle snapping, low liftoff distance), but with possibility to choose dpi between 450 and 1800. Jittering isnt good thing too, but I have my old fUnc 1030 so I thought it will not touch me.

"...that in-driver sensitivity setting isnt allowing him to change value above something, when switch is not at maximum."

That shows that the switch and the driver 1-to-10 scale are separate from each other : with the switch set @ 450 the scale goes from 1=45 to 10=450, with the switch set to 1800 the scale goes from 1=180 to 10=1800, with the switch set to 3500 the scale goes from 350 to 3500 (likely).

But in that review it wasnt like that. With switch set @3500 reviewer had full sensitivity scale avaible, while @1800 - only from 1 to 5, and even less(probably from 1 to 2) when switch is @450.

By the way, what will Mouse Movement Recorder show if in-driver sensitivity is adjusted? Will it show same results as when Windows sensitivity adjusted?

Very strange behaviour. Do you have the link for that review?

Mouse Movement Recorder can only see mouse data after it leaves the driver (it can't see or measure in-driver sensitivity) and after it goes thru Windows control panel (Windows sensitivity + accel).

Here is the link http://megaobzor.com/pervyy-obzor-Razer-Abyss...tricy.html . Its on russian thought, dont know if it will be usefull.

I think what that review says is unclear. He does say you can't raise the sensitivity, but I think he really meant to say you can't raise the DPI above the switch value using the driver 1-10 slider, because that makes more sense.

(Google translated : "Moreover, if the lever you have is at 1800 dpi, then raise the sensitivity, you can not, and omitted - please.")

Next sentence from that review after one that you gave: "By 3500 dpi you will have full spectrum avaible from nearly 100 dpi". It made me think that switch on mouse works like limitter for software dpi adjustment.

Im agree with you, review doesnt say it clear. I think this review is made with advertisement style, and what reviewer says there he says to hide Abyssus disadvantage with huge dpi step. Too bad i didnt get it from first read.

Yea, that would imply that 450 and 1800 CPI aren't hardware settings of the sensor.

Canyon CNR-MSOPT7 mouse looks more comfy :)