Don't bother going to university. Become a cleaner.

BUT WHAT OF WHEN THE ROBOTS TAKE MY JOB, I'D BE COMPETING WITH FUCKING 0.00000000001 $ AN HOUR OMGOGMOGMOGMOGMO.

particle physics

I see; but what does that, as i can understand it, contain?

. . . . . <----particles

Way2eZ <---- moron

:<

<:

Physics, it's nearly as cool as being a pirate.

Howso? You know it?

Cause physisists are cool! The chicks dig it. I only know this stuff from reading about it. Warning, though when you work in that field you end up working with some fucked up people.

czm for instance

and him yeah :)

i like fucked up people, like daryl. x)

RIDE THE EDGE OF REALITY!

yarrr

You'll never know how uni is or even if uni is for you till you've actually spent a year or two there. It's nothing like school. Sounds pretty simple but that's just the way it is.
No one's able to tell you to go for either physics/philosophy because this is all about you and how you will be able to handle the university style of learning. Not sure how things are in norway but a lot of people here spent their first years in uni realizing what they want to do and then change to other subjects after the third/fourth term.


(go for philosophy :>)

You have had philosophy?

I guess, even if they can't tell me exactly what to do, they can tell me something about the subjects that i did not know or can understand from the summary of the subjects from the uni pages: That's mainly what i was aiming for here, but also as you mentioned -- uni-life; perhaps some experiences or typical events, even tho it may, aswell as subjects may, differ from school to school..

I'm doing politics and philosophy and I'm getting into my 6th term in the summer. What I meant is this: The way you approach things at university is a whole lot different than you did at school. Therefore you can't say wether you going to like a particular subject at uni or not. Because without been there you just can't say :/

Ok easy thing to say maybe: least in my uni there is no one telling me what to do or when to do or in what order or whatever..... I'm on my own here and for some (even some of the more intelligent) people that's something they quit uni over.

Just go for whatever you feel like but take a look around when you're there and try to get the most out of it. You'll realize if something's for you or not pretty soon.

Ah yeah.. Thanks :)=

Physics its more diverse and people know the meaning of it?

The question remains solid as ever -- do you know what I mean by it?

The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology. Of course.

:)

hehe ;p

So what kind of a salary can you expect in philosophy field?

I've no idea; always depends on how good you are i guess. But i think if you are a philosopher you might do some research or something; i heard about companies hiring philosophers for various purposes now lately: Perhaps, as i think, it will be increasingly more need for them in the future as we move yet futher up and away from "mechanical" work :)

are you seriouse? :)

?:(

a philosophy professor earns a serious buck

Did you see anyone mention a PHD in this thread?
regardless, any PHD usually does.

It would be very foolish to study theoretical physics or philosophy and not get a PhD or at least MD.

And yes, you can be a professor at a 2-year college without having PhD.

first being the point, second being called a Teaching Assistant, not a professor

Wrong, do you actually know anything about American school system?

T.A. has nothing to do with it.

Uh, do you?
Who cares about non-universities. I dont care where you can teach without a PhD and not be called a TA or Associate Professor, not just a professor. In American and non-American school... ehm Higher Education systems Professor is synonymouse with the highest degree.

"degree" ?

seriously just go for what your gutt feeling tells you, otherwise you wont enjoy either of the above :)

my gut feeling is devided and at war with itself ;)

leave both the options go for a third one .. :)

they were cought in between..

ul

There's around 3 career choices with physics, if you're interested in doing something that you'll actually use your degree for: teaching, lecturing, and research.

If you actually want to use your physics, engineerings your best bet, although if the theoretical side of it is your passion, then a research type role would be better.

Physics

elaborate?

nah

The value of your reply could increase TENFOLD with two sentences of explanation :(

bah ok,

I think physics is more interesting, meaningful, useful, beneficial, enjoyable and employable. And this sentance is to use up my second sentance.

Ok, thanks.. And yeah, it's just a figure of speech ;)

Do physics. What the hell kind of job are you going to get with philosophy? Don't do law. You get ten times more work than everyone else and you get less creedits...

creedits are uberelite.

physics

It's good that you suggest; but you need to elaborate, convince me with some arguments or something, i don't really value random opinoins if not justified somehow.

Well, it's simple. One is useful and the other is philosophy.

Well, philosophy for me is learning to operate with a mind without contradictions and clouds inhibiting clear thought; and yeah, i do belive someone teaching me can help me improve better than i can alone.

You've answered your own question then. My advice is to go through your own mental development cycle as you have been doing up to now and take physics. Philosophy is wishy washy!

You're probably right, i'd probably just rebel up the teachings anyways, can't really do that in physics xD

i just think someone with a major in physics would probably know more philosophy then a philosophy major himself.

Possibly yeah, but combined they are allmighty!

Do physics and become a philosopher in your free time, you do not need to study for that kinda shit.

I thought about that, but then i, as i said, imagined that i would get a more solid foundation in school than random reading at home, with perhaps some interesting people/teachers to talk to..

This is why i perhaps need a better picture of what philosophy really is; it does not seem like there are anyone from whom i can gain info from, who has not biased preconseptions without basis for what it really is. Anyways, seems like theoretical physics soon enough becomes philosophy at some level ;)

Myself, I would expect philosophy to become one of the most boring subjects if you were actually forced to study it instead of just being interested in it and reading a book every once in a while.

Perhaps, it's a broad subject, i'm not really sure what it includes in teaching.

Well, we have the history of philosophy this year n ZSV (Basics of Social Studies) @ my High School and I have hard time not falling asleep every damn period. It just seems like a shitload of names and back then revolutionary but nowadays archaic stuff they said to memorize. However, the philosophing itself would probably be pretty cool.

Hehe, yeah.. History is only fun to a certian degree, the moder philosophers are pretty uber tho;

"Its whole meaning could be summed up somewhat as follows: What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent."

Pretty much narrows philosophy down to unclouding your own thoughts and expressing them more precise and concise.

I do not want to express my thoughts clearly! I want to become a politician and manipulate people =)

Unclouding your own thoughts and expressing them more precise and concise in a rhetorical way then ;D

Yep, little bit of rhetory and psychology never hurt noone =)

Eloquence :D

Theoretical physics, IMO, have been getting further from philosophy ever since Einstein. Nowadays, I doubt they are more than systematic ant-like everyday work in a large team. I am going to uni next year as well and myself, I decided to do Economy + Law and go politics.

How is it futher away from philosophy? You mean each individual is required to philosophize less, or that the subject itself when understood to a high degree somehow includes less philosophy than before?

Both. Its not very likely anymore to just invent something the good old Newton way, you just have to discover and measure stuff step by step.

Yeah, but it's pretty nice to philosophize about random stuff when you have eaten all the information available nontheless; when you have the ultimate worldview ;)

I do not want to know everything, that would like make my head blow up or something =x Ultimate worldview? Now that is some scary shit! Like in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy where they punish people by making them know everything and it makes them feel so small they rather kill themselves.

Well, does not intimidate me; i know it's not ULTIMATE no matter what, but compared to what i know now from here, i think it's a pretty exciting journey :)

I've delt with this exact issue, actually. (except mine was between electrical engineering and philosophy) Do not do philosophy. Anything philosophical you can come up with has been come up with by someone else already. Think about it, physics is very new, discoveries are being made on a daily basis. Philosophy is dead, it's been around since man was able to think about things, so it's been beaten to death. If you were to major in philosophy you would just be reading other peoples opinions on things, and then trying to come up with your own (which will inevitably have already been invented by someone else already). It's a boring cycle. Also, you'll get paid nothing for having a philosophy major unless you teach, so if you want money and a job, I'd go with the physics, definately.

It's moreso with philosophy that i want to learn about logic and how to clearly express and structure myself and my thoughts, which i think can be a great value to learn early in life. I noticed now that there was a possibility to take a year-study of philosophy; that might be the thing i need, a year off to reflect and prepare myself to how i'm going to attack the vast subject of physics without mindconflicts or obscurities slowing me down. I think i have this underlying feeling that i'm not yet ready to begin hardcore physics or math without some kind of time to reflect, and i thought since i've always enjoyed philosophy it might be less strangling to me at this point to take that -- in addition to that, philosophy is a subject suited for reflectingi would think, but as i'm not sure of #33 x)

reading books about philosophy is like reading a cookbook when you're hungry. worthless.

hmm

Perhaps a year off would be better idd :]

But then i've no excuse for military service; what i need is some cooller dodging skillz to get out of it :]

you always have civil cervice though - plenty of time to relax and figure things out

Hmm, i'll get some info on what it accutally is :)

I once knew a man who claimed to have dodged civil service by telling them he had a highly contaigous skin disease, alternatively can you not just fuck the exam up ?

I've some stuff planned that i'm going to try that's not hurting me in any way, even if it doesn't work; i'll take my chances that they do -- if not then i'll figure out something else :]

Just be a conscientious objector.

Why don't you go for psychology?

I bet it's rewarding and is tied in with philosophy and more practical IMO, getting people to confide in you and being able to offer advise they take.

If you're going to be a great philosopher then it's something you will do from natural talent and life experience. Not from studying it. Look at all the failed maths professors that spend their whole life teaching other peoples sums and discoveries.

If I solved the secrets of the universe tomorrow you think people would give a flying fuck that I don't have a degree?
Nope and that applies for pretty much everyting. So do philosophy as a hobby or you might end up burning yourself out thinking of something profound!
Shrinks also make a shitload of money-though most have receeding hairlines so watch out for that:/

To be a shrink you need like the best grades in all subjects, and even if you have that, there is still a good chance you won't make it -- i can't be assed to even try. I don't see why learning philosophy would inhibit me from doing something great with it; you have to learn, at least lots of, what the other philosophers have been doing all these years anyways, and if done at school, it's much easier because then you don't need a job -- aswell as it provides an enviorment where there are people to talk to about the subject.

The smartest and most insightful person on my last course was my math professor. I can't for sure say if this was due to his personality or how the progression of logic affected his brain. You see the same thing with programmers however. I'm not sure if this interests you or not... but through math and logic you will probably get the most out of your experience in this world </personal opinion>

Well my current math teacher is an ass, she is like a computer with no brain; my physics teacher however is the most awesome teacher i've ever had, probably kinda random -- but also probably affects my opinion on the subjects :D

"The people who were video game players were better and faster performers," said psychologist Ellen Bialystok, a research professor at York University. "Those who were bilingual and video game addicts scored best -- particularly at the most difficult tasks."

Foxfaction is certainly a gamer, he can scrap irrelevant shit, like 99% of the comments on this journal, and concentrate on the most valid point and answer. =]

:) Thanks.

actually, philosophy is not dead.

It's just starting :]

am I aiming too low?

yeah, you gotta win with style

Science-fiction writers are the best philosophers. Become one of them :D

Hehe.. nah.

At your age, you're unlikely to know for sure exactly what you want to do for the rest of your life; and even if you think you do, you'll probably change your mind at some point. Philosophy is pretty much a dead end; not much of a career, and not a subject that leads to many others. I'd certainly disagree that philosophy is really a "foundation for everything else you will be learning". The mathematical foundations you'll learn doing physics, on the the other hand, are applicable to any scientific field you care to name, as are the logical way of thinking and scientific rigour that goes with them, which in fact are a large part of what you would learn in philosophy.

Yeah, i might change my mind. You disagree, but with no argument? :/

wrong question imo. you have to get clear in what sort of job you want to work and then pick whatever education it needs. If you dont know that, i recommend to take a year off (do you have civil service over there?) untill you know.

Some people say study where ever your interests are, because there you will be good and thus you will get a job, but i think thats wrong. Many ppl i went to school with studied history, philosophy, politics and so on and ended up with shit jobs. i studied history for 1 year too, wich was great, but had no perspective, so i switched. Uni lasts only 5 or so years, but then you are stuck with it. Chances you can make an academic carreer in those fields are pretty dim too.

If you are really such a math-brain and you arent sure what to do, why not go for math? Its not easy for sure, but if you make it, you can have really good jobs in quite different fields, and there are also many philosophical aspects in it. I say you cant go wron with it. In fact, if i had to study again, id prolly take maths.

Yep, imo theoretical math > theoretical physics.

Well, i was very good at math until i had to study to keep up; i don't really enjoy math all that much now that i can't understand what is going on, not to say that i can't do it, just that when it's above the imagination to percieve i don't really enjoy it that much -- feels like work whenever doing it. E.g i like geometry but hate advanced algebra, cuz i've no idea what's going on. That's why i like physics, because it's linked to reality, you can always picture the situation in your head to help solve the puzzle -- besides, it's fun learning about the world :)

I would imagine theres LOTS of math required for theoretical physics tho..

aye it being the mathematical application of real world things. physics can have quite heavy applied maths.

That's ok :)

I think, as i've no idea what i'm facing..

I am an opposite of that, derivation and integration are easy as cake 4 me, but I bloody HATE! analytic geometry =)

left brained? :]]

any degree gets u a job... unless u wana go into a field and do that, just get any degree as long as its not fine art.

i studied philosophy at the uni in oslo for 2 years and i can tell u first hand that its the most boring ever, and not only that, its extremely demanding of u as a student as well. be prepared to read a book a week :=)

ull be bored with old peoples eternally wrong view, infact all philosophy from the beginning of time up until and including habermas is utter shite ;)

hehehe, so it's mostly history? :/

the first couple of years will be mostly history and introduction into specific subjects.

Dont get me wrong, there are subjects withing phil that really rox, can only speak for myself, but i found the philosophy of mind and and the philosophy of physics to be really interesting.

U'll be flabbergasted at some of the examples presented to you and you will most likely change your view on many things - perhaps not to the better however.

Imagine arguing against Pascals wager, which claims that it pays to believe in god since if there was a god, and u didnt believe in him while alive then u can expect to be punished in the afterlife. So, just incase there is a god, its a good bet to believe in him while ur alive.

Or try arguing either way with the utilitarist view that if you can by killing one person save a whole village, u should do it.

in short, philosophy as a field is far too wide. And u wont get to specialize as much as u want to, before u start ur master program. Dont even think about studying phil outside of college tho, unless u consider urself some kind of doctor doogie wonder kid, this subject is incredibly deep and incredibly hard to fully grasp.

Really? :oo Tell me more!

How is it boring?

I'm doing physics and economics (started with physics only) at uni for 1.5 years now. One of the reasons I switched from physics to physics and economics (dropping some physics lessons later in my studies, doing some economics instead) is that I was somewhat scared of some theoretical physics lectures. Funnily I now got my first theoretical lecture and I like it alot ('only' mechanics tho). Even more than in the physics basics, you can really start to do your very own philosophy while doing theoretical physics as you'll soon reach levels where your imagination won't cut it anymore to describe the outcome and behaviour of things. That's where maths jumps in: you can just waste some hours and sheets of paper and you'll know what happens, and then make up your mind and try to imagine why it works the way you just found out.
I even think that the theoretical lectures are the one where you really start to understand the subject, as maths is way sharper and more precise than your feeling for physics can probably be. If you're really interested in physics (and this is probably a must) you'll learn amazing stuff about the world. You'll learn that nothing really is the way you think it is, you'll learn that you can never really be sure about anything. You won't understand the whole world or be able to explain everything in detail, but you get a damn good basic knowledge which then helps you analysing the problem.

And that's also the whole point of the physics studies for many people. Here in Germany we get told that about 70% of the physics students later won't have anything to do with physics, at least not as physicists. You'll work in finances, economy, management, consulting and such stuff. All you really learn is to sum up problems and solve them. You can decide to go on doing physics if you really wish to, but it seems the majority just enjoys the knowledge they gained and then move on to other things as profession.

I'm quite sure some people will now reply and try to make me look like a fool as I'm famous for asking some not so hardcore questions at times (fizzy tablets :p), but just ignore them and trust me: physics is fucking hard. You'll need a ton of maths, and you'll have to be able to use that maths for physics. I know people studying geography and some language and they got told to do not more than 12 hours a week. I got about 30 hours of lectures and tutorials, and when it's really bad and you do all the stuff you get almost as many hours again for all the exercises. It really is damn interesting, but you got to work hard and get yourself sorted to pass it. Still I think I'd pick it again, it really teaches you more than some physics stuff imo :)

i went into physics for answers and its all theoretical at the top :(


CPLains.... if you don't like maths stay away from physics. It's just maths all dressed up.

Well i can only speak of what i know; we are learning now in physics is about electromagnetic waves, and that's cool; it's not like the math there is too much interfering with the picture of what is going on, it's used as a tool rather than doing the science itself. I like the way you have to think what math-tool you have to use to solve the puzzle, rather than just get a complex answer to simplify ;)

Philosophy is fun but it leaves you with very few career options[teaching?].....and unless you come up with some great idea about metaphysics etc......your not goin to earn much cash from it
If u have the necessary aptitude fer english and think you can cope with what the philosdophy course at your uni requires of you go for it.....

physics
if you have the time,just spend some time in 1 or 2 lessons of pysics and philsophy to get a feeling how its going to be,many psychology students for example are frusted by math lessons coming up :)

there's an idea :]

8)

Philosophy entails speculating on the questions Physics will answer sooner or later.

Physics > Philosophy.

But if i know some proper philosophy, surely those physics answers and questions are easier to figure out and ponder?

If you already know how to reason, you don't need to study Philosophy. Do it if you enjoy it, but Physics is far more useful.

there is more to reason than seems obvious?

Not unless you're retarded.

"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it." -Descartes

?

I didn't say most people aren't retarded.

err..

My point is that reason should be obvious.

Well, let me look up this word.. Hmm yeah, means quite alot; what i meant was the "The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence." definition.. And altho i'm not stupid does not mean i'm sufficient in these, i want more x)

:)

what stops you from being a philosopher when you're studying physics? like spyteman said, theoretical physics - being the science that ultimately deals with everything - will make you conscious about existance and how it works more than philosophy ever could.

a good lot of major natural scientists publish philosophical essays and books because on their niveau of abstraction they have the ability to view the world at a fundamental level that is defining for human consciousness.

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
-- Mark Twain

yes, but it is wise?

What I am trying to say is that schooling and education are two different things that have two different purposes, and that trying to blend them might not be the best thing to do. University should not be seen as a means to aquire knowledge, but as a means to aquire degrees.
Keep in mind your interest for those subjects as a hobby may not reveal itself to be a real interest in something you would like to pursue as a career (mathematics are really interesting, but who wants to be a math teacher?).
Learn stuff that interests you on your own, and select a university program that helps you get a degree towards a job you think would be interesting.

i know what you are saying, i'm just wondering if it's wise, if it's the right thing to do: Because if you aquire knowledge by yourself, as i've mentioned a cupple of times in this thread, the foundation on which it is set may be more unsteady or more filled with flaws than it would in a school, in addition to that; you have the fact that you have people to talk to about the subject you like in school.

I think you're a bit delusional. You're still the one that has to work on the courses you're given to understand them, teacher or not. Besides, I never said you should not go to school.

I'm just not sure if the subject i like the most is something i should study on my own, regardless of whether i take another subject in school or not.

Either that subject can lead to a job you like, or it cannot. In either case you should study it on your own (in addition to the university program, or not). You should not worry too much about having "flaws" in your self-teaching program. There shouldn't be much if it's based on (text) books anyway, since that's what all university courses are based on.

I thought it might help to have a teacher and some people to talk to.

You've got us to talk to :/

The fountain of knowledge that is ESR.

True, you will soon tire of my mumbo jumbo tho; when i'm nearing 10000 posts you will feel it!!1

Eventually we'll hit second wind and your comments will become acceptable again. Look at daryl!

True, but look at Daryl!

haha

is physics goin to answer what sort of an ethical system is ideal to pursue or what sort of a political system is ideal for a country...:S

is philosophy gonna answer that? :)

I never said it would:P

.. what.

sif

ez ^.^

Hey,

i did physics at uni but wasted the last year of my degree by drinking to much and working to much. I had fun and i relaly did think i tried my best. Except my best wasn't good enough.

I came out with an ordinary in physics.

Also people do say that a physics degree will infact stand you in good feet for any career.... Thats only if you come out with a 1st class honours degree. (the best one to get in the uk)
It may be different where you are though.

My job prospects aren't as nice as i thought they would be... Go teach punk ass kids at a secondary school... or work up from somewhere in a numeracy based profession. Not really the high flying job i pictured as soon as i graduated. Its now 7 months down the line and i while i'll admit i have been lazy i am now looking for a career somewhere using my so called brain.

All i say is if you do physics make sure you actually believe the quantum theory is relavant and not just some bullshit formula that was made up to keep some dudes in a job.

the first three years were okay but the last year it goes all theoretical and thats just silly imo. I switched off and found it really hard to study it.

The maths is very difficult as well. I don't mean hard i mean insane.

We are talking 3 or 4 sides of a4 for one formula derivation and thats before you use another 3 formulas to work out the values to plug into it.

Woah.. Well, the school here in Norway gives me no indication i guess whatsoever for what to expect at uni taking physics :\

But there is really nothing else i can imagine myself doing, besides philosophy (equally, or more, useless) :o

And yeah, quantum physics is what i wanna get into anyways, seems pretty interesting; altho the math might be a problem x))

"the first three years were okay but the last year it goes all theoretical and thats just silly imo. I switched off and found it really hard to study it."

4 years?

yeah it was a four year course.

Your common sense brain doesn't work for quantum physics at all. It's so abstract it'll make you cry :( we'll i found it very difficult. Probably because i didn't really think it was relavent at all to the physical world.

1st and 2nd year were fun as they were alot easier looking back.
Actually in 3rd year it starts going a bit absract then ramps it in forth year.

Do some research in google for some basic quantum theory. The steven Hawkins books are intresting if a little basic for the stuff you'll tackle at uni.

another great (and FREE) book about physics: http://www.motionmountain.net/

?:(

ahh, works in IE ;)

about 5 years here in Germany (9/10 semesters, you'll usually need more like 11-12 tho)
Unless it's some really fucked up elite school I doubt there's any kind of school in the world that will give you the slightest idea of what physics at uni means. The first thing you'll ever learn at uni is that you basically know nothing :) . The speed and level of the lectures can and most likely will be insane, and you'll need time and patience to adapt to it. Still, you're more or less starting from scratch in every subject. You need to know the basics you learn at school, and then it just goes on and on and on and on.. :D

I think the best thing is to just visit some lectures at unis and see what it's like (altho you will most likely not understand much if it's not the beginner's stuff). Altho I might not have picked it if I knew how fucking hard the start would be :)
gl.

Yeah, i guess the start will be hard, but i guess i have to start doing homework sometime xD

I dunno, i might need a year or half off before i start with this; i'm so used to doing, basicly, nothing in school; and from nothing to doing shitloads at home aswell; i don't think the motivation is high enough yet -- to start with it now just after finnishing school already. Perhaps getting a shitty job or doing civil service a year with some self thought philosophy would be best.

It's Norway after all -- a year off is no problem ;)

.

BOTH EZ :D

.

Then start diggin :)))

.

<3

.

I only saw your <3 subconsciously, it wasn't a reply to that at all, just gave me the idea i guess.

.

The way my tutor put it, "At the end of the day, advanced theoretical physics becomes philosophy", so no need to worry there, the choice should be easy! :)

The way I put it, "At the end of the day, if what you want to do is philosophy, why the fuck would you study theoretical physics?"

Heh, I didn't study physics long enough to run into such dilemma.. but enough so I can tell you basically how stuff works, but I have no idea why stuff exists in the first place. Oo

What people dont tell you, is that uni is a huge waste of time and money and is actually really easy :)
You dont need to do as much work as you did in school, and you're not at home, so you're free to waste your new found time doing whatever you want :)

I've never done any work in school ;)

How is it a waste of time?

You'll do a course in 3 years, that if you had classes 9-5 monday to friday you'd finish in 18 months. But (in england) you have maybe 12 hours of classes a week if you're lucky

knew it was hype, lol :)

I mean the lifestyle is truely great, they dont lie about that. University is party hard, party often. However is it worth it?

Society places a great value on getting a university degree, its what the very best people in society have done, and will do. Well many people will tell you after your first job, employers only look for job experience rather than anything else. And if there are more and more people getting degrees, how can the value be the same if the supply is so much higher?

Does university teach you the neccessary skills to go out into the real world? No it dosent in my experience. I worked 9-5 for a year prior to coming to university, and I learnt more about working in an office enviroment and teamskills and how to get information and give information than I have done in any level of schooling. Now I am in university giving Group presentations, which dont teach anyone a thing, but just give tutors an easier assessment.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2028167,00.html

Not trying to put you off it at all though :P You will enjoy your time at uni, it will be expensive, however it dosent mean what it used to in my books.

I mean the lifestyle is truely great, they dont lie about that. University is party hard, party often.

Well, obviously it varies from person to person and subject to subject, but in my experience doing computing+electronics, it went something like:

1st year: ~24 hours of lectures (which often you could miss and not lose anything), bugger all apart from that.
2nd year: ~16-20 hours of lectures, maybe another 8-12 hours of work on top of that. Still nothing all that difficult, but if you let yourself fall behind, you'll have to work pretty hard to catch up. Still plenty of free time though.
3rd year: Only ~12 hours of lectures, but anything from 25-60 hours of work on top of that. Pretty tough stuff that will really stretch you. Choice of options so you can really get into the bits that interest you, and a major project to get your teeth into.

So okay, first couple of years, party all you want, but you have to do some work at some point. :p

And if there are more and more people getting degrees, how can the value be the same if the supply is so much higher?

Fair point, but physics is one subject where there is a shortage of people. As I've said before, the skills you learn in the "academic" science and engineering subjects are still in big demand. If you want to be a chartered engineer, say, then good luck without an MEng degree. There are plenty of subjects where a degree is just the beginning; but obviously that doesn't apply to everything, so you have to ask yourself what you really want to end up doing.

Does university teach you the neccessary skills to go out into the real world?

Not if you don't make an effort to learn them, no. If you get involved with the social scene, take leadership of a sports team, take some responsibility in one of the societies, get involved with union politics, or whatever, then you can definitely develop those skills; it's something employers will always look for on a CV. On the other hand, if you just go out partying every night for three years...

I'd also argue the reverse: if theoretical physics is what you are interested in, then you aren't going to learn that in any kind of detail in the "real world". And I suppose that's my point: university isn't for everyone, and for many areas it isn't really necessary. Perhaps the most important thing you learn at university is how to learn. Once you have covered a subject with the kind of depth and academic rigour you'll be taught at the top universities, you'll realise how much there is out there that you still want to know, and you'll be in prime position to go out and learn it. It just depends: how far do you want to go? How far are you capable of going?

It's a pretty serious decision, and as you (Mr Lains, I mean) don't seem to be too sure at the moment, I'd definitely recommend taking a gap year, which you seem to be pretty keen on anyway. Just make sure you have goals: use your gap year to find out about some of the things you might want to do in life; I mean, don't just work in the local convenience store for a year. Get a summer job as an assistant in a physics lab, say, and talk to the people there. Even if you end up hating it and thinking you've wasted 2 months of your life, it's better than starting a degree course and hating it. Go travelling. Get some serious life experience. Talk to as many people as possible. Take some philosophy books on your travels and read them cover to cover, then think about how much you agree/disagree. Try writing as essay arguing some point in the book. Can you see yourself doing that for 3+ years?

No-one can make these decisions for you. Just give yourself some purpose, and most importantly: enjoy life! Think of all the opportunities available to you that so many people in the world would love to have.

Ill make the decision for him, go!

thx :)

Hehe, well, about the hype i mean that people say it's so hard. I don't really care all that much about a job, i just wanna learn asmuchAP :)

seep lanes is amassing a spam campaign
EMPLOY THE LASEERS BEWARE

<3

Ask SiaCo :)

Hahaha, yeee, that would be something :D

If you consider philosophy,
I advise you to look really into it before you chose it.
Philosophy at university (I tell of my experience at an german university, but I really don't think it's that different in norway) is not what most people think it is. You don't think about stuff like moral values in our world,
you don't analyze the psyche of a man or think about goverment systems,
if a normal man thinks of philosophy, names such as marx, platon, humes, nietzsche come to your mind.
But you actually don't debate what state is right, which moral values are important ... if you study philosophy, you will most probably do things like logic, utilitarism, philosophy of language, kant.
Logic sounds cool to you? well its logic of speech,

Socrates is human
All humans will die
=> Socrates will die

and this stuff gets far more complicated than this ...
but to be honest, what is this stuff good for.
You actually can't really use it on a speech :-(
You can do a science out of it, think of theories in this system,
but they are of no importance at all.

Utilitarism = mankind has to do what is most utile
but ... man you in realty you always try to what is most utile ...
you think of stuff like is most utile if everyone does what is most utile for himself, or is it most utile if everyone does what is most utile for the community ... well this thinking sounds actually cool at first sight, but it isn't ... we then progressed to a book by singer (animal rights, stuff like if you kill animals, you can aswell kill retardet people, based on characterists that people can feel only pain and joy, and you have to act the way that you maximize joy and minimize pain ... some animals can feel more pain than a retardet human, so why should the animals be killed, but the humans live on ) ... sounds cool to you, yes this was the only discussion that was cool ... but, for me the discussion hadn't to do anything with utilitarism ... we just debated about the fact what is most utile ... utilitarism? sure, but ... how do you know what is most utile?
the theorys of utilitarism can't explain it ... after all it's just a normal discussion ... and everyone says what he thinks is best ... but the theory of utilitarism doesn't help in any way ...

Philosophy of speech ... you think of how words are made up ... how language functions ... stuff like George Bush defines one person, but president of america refers to it George Bush too ... but president of america is dependent of time you say it ...
sounds cool? yes
at first sight most things in philosophy sound quite cool ...
but I tell if you have listen to that stuff the 3rd time, at least for me, it gets so annoying ...

I really advise you to look what is taught in the philosophy subjects of your university ... ask what books they read (in philosophy you do not really need to be experienced, you can start with whatever you want) ... try to read these books ... and see what philosophy is like
and it won't change if you have your diploma ...
in germany the only way to work as a philosopher is at university ...
otherwise you maybe get to work in a cultural institution what only requires a diploma in a field of literature/sociology/philosophy ...
but it's really damn hard to get a job as a philosopher ...
but if you really like philosophy, then why not ...
for me it just doesn't have much to do with reality (even one of the professors said that one time) ... also you do not really need a diploma to be a writer ... but of course for some people philosophy can be the right thing ... but make sure to look into the books to see if you really like it ...
or try to go to a speech or seminar ...

there was also some one who studied physics ...
but worked as professor in the philosophy faculty ...
here in germany at some universitys it is possible to study a mainsubject (math, physics, etc.) and one secondary subject (sometimes philosophy avaible) ... I think if you actually manage to get a job at the university as a philosopher ... it is not bad, because, well I have to admit I do not really know what a day of a philosopher at university looks like, but I don't think the job is that hard ;-), some people only do 2 lessons at 2 hours per week, each semester, and the teaching consists in distributing topics for the subject to the students the first time they met ... and then the students do the job, they prepare for their talk and the professors just sits there and gives them the grade ... and also the "scientifical research" (for me philosophy is no science, cuz you can't check anything if anything is really true there) can't be really checked, they can't really benchmark your performance ...
but still it's damn hard to get a job as philosopher ...
ah night is too long, don't take me too seriously, it is just my personal opinion, shouldnt have written so much ;-)

Nah nah, it's great man, but can you hint any books? I just finnished reading http://www.4literature.net/Rene_Descartes/Dis...he_Method/ and thought it was awesome :)

I only had 2 english philosophy courses ...
in mass art and philosophy of language ...
in mass art we copied papers from the book ...
in philosophy of language, I have the book.
'Philosophy of Language, a contemporary introduction",
it's still lying around here doing nothing.
It's in new condition, the chapter I prepared I copied from the book for underlining ... so also no marks in it.
could send it to you, cuz I won't ever pick it up ...
otherwise ...
John Stuart Mill, on Liberty, is also a quite famous text in my university.
just look at the course program of the university and look which books they propose you to read for the course program, the universitys also have libraries where you can lend them out ...

nice, imsg

It seems that you just saw one side of philosophy. I am studying philosophy at the University of Berne and here, we have far more subjecty to cover. Basically you can divide the topics into two different subjects:

Practial Philosophy: This stream of philosophy covers political philosophy, Ethics, anthropology, philosophy of law, etc

Theoretical Philosophy: This stream of philosophy covers philosophy of speech, epistemology, metaphysics, logic, causality, etc

As you can see, you probably just had courses from the theoretical part of philosophy.

Well, I mentionend utilitarism, utilitarism belongs to ethics => practical philosophy.
I also had a course in anthropology ...
and another in one in 'Mass Art' ...
mass art was from the style the same as utilitarism ...
they always try to define mass art ... but in the end they can't, they try to give it a pejorative meaning ... in the end they can't come up with any definition ...
And I also had 2 lessons about kant, that is also about ethics ...
really, try to read Kant, and you will find out very fast what philosophy is like ...
kant in germany normal people think of him he is a cold and rational thinker,
but everything he says is based on god, something that noone can't explain,
and he always justifies his arguments with some relation to god ...
noone knows really god ... so noone can say it is wrong what he is saying.
But of course Kant is one the greatest philosophers of all time ... oh yes, probably because noone can understand him because of his really bad writing style ...
To me theoretical and practical philosophy are not different concerning the way you think in them ... and they are both pretty unrelevant in reality ...
try to read on practical philsophy such as utilitarism (jeremy bentham), kant, mass art ...

Of course does utilitarism belong to the practical philosophy, but it is just a concept. There are a lot of other concepts beneath utilitarism.

Kant may be about Ethics but he had also written a major piece of work in theoretical philosophy which you seem to quote here in a strange way. Kant's theory did not base on god. His theory bases on the "actual thing in the world" which cannot be percived by humans. He certainly does not prove anything in relation with god otherwise he would not be as accepted as he is.

I've never heard of mass art.

You said you had 2 lessons about Kant: Do you mean 2 lessons per week or only 2 lessons?

CPlains, if i were u, i'd simply go to several lectures of both ur fields of interest and make up my mind..
i also dont know the uni system in norway or wherever u live (;)), but most probably u could start say philosophy, stay in it for a semester//year, ask around some of the upper semester students, and decide whether u wish to stick with it or not.

personally, when i was making ur choice, i was considering architecture and nuclear physics. i pick arch and im absolutely happy so far( excluding hte fact that during the semester i cant breath, and we are being overwhelmed with stuff.. and being a foreigner in Germany is not a great help either :>).

however AFAIK nuclear physics is actually a great field to work in, and should be not hard to get a job (im actually almost certain i won't found an arch job for a long time when//if i graduate..). i was never a fan of the "theoretical/abstract" fields, my brain doesnt quite work on thosefrequencies..

as a personal matter of taste, philosophy sounds lame to me, and maths cant be soooo bad.. i had 2 semesters of theoretical maths (YEEEEY, the lamest period in my life), and i managed it, so dont worry about that ;)



so my advice, take several months and try to pick up an uni which u like (some prestigious one is alwaysgood to graduate imo ;)), which hopefully has the 2 majors u wish to pursue, and try to gather more info about which is what. then decide ;)
even if u lose 1 year this way, its still not bad, whats more, you could even work a bit and get some $$$ for the future (every bit helps :))

jup, might do that..

Just come here and study Icelandic =)

<3

Without reading all the other comments.
Don't choose philosophy. It's also a part of science, really it is. Are there no minors possible? Here in Holland you can follow other courses in something called 'free space', so a (small) combination is possible.
Also...look at your future. Philosophy is not the best choice I'm afraid.

My experience: thought philosophy would be cool. Recently did a course and it sucked. But thats just an opinion. I study biology btw.

kk, thx

It's also a part of science, really it is.

No it's not? It's almost the other way 'round and atleast historically you would've to agree. If someone seriously spent some time with philosophy (and who did in this thread) he will most probably come out with an whole different view on the so called 'sciences', the way they operate and their uses. But it's hard to argue about something most people didn't experience and you really can't 'imagine what it would be like'.

I'd say go for civil/community service first or whatever you got in norway. Helped me alot and almost everyone who went straight to uni after school regretted it in the end. Of course I can't actually speak for others but I learned soo much about myself in that year I wouldn't want to miss the time (I went to a kindergarten btw.. :)

The way we work today, our scientific approach, is a product of philosophy. Many scientists don't realize that, I agree. All I wanted to say is that science and philosophy are intertwined. And in my study there are courses where you can learn the underlying philosophy.
My point was, if you want philosophy, you can find plenty of it in whatever scientific study you want, you just have to look for it. And I'm very sure about that.

I'm rather sure the part of philosophy you learn while doing scientific stuff is just the part of philosophy that's useful for science. But of course I agree with both being intertwined.
It's just to put it bluntly... you are only going to learn about the side of philosophy which will further help you in doing the tasks you have to perform in science. Anything that this might 'disturb' - for the lack of a better word - will never be mentioned because for science that wouldn't be useful but rather pretty non-productive.

As an example you could take me doing both politics and philosophy: Politics actually involves a shitload of statistics/math stuff. Now I am doing all this faithfully and all that but in the back of my head I know every statistic in this world is ultimately flawed from it's beginning to the idiotic way people will make use of it. Eventhough I may do my statistics as faithfully as I can there's still a lack of motivation buried in myself because deep down I know that what I'm doing has no practical use and I could probably switch things around and make that damn chart say whatever I want.

Science will only teach you so much philosophy to not make you lose your motivation to go further in science (that's my opinion of course and I respect whatever yours is).

I'm not reading this. If you reply, I won't read it. So go mad.

Good you didn't read it :)

Each of what you have picked are very admirable fields to aspire in. Many individuals (and I use the term loosely) are put into the corporate cognitive pathway as if they have no other choice, and that of academia is joked upon as they believe one with a humanities degree will not earn as much as a business major. Funny thing is, as statistics stand (check the 2004 census in regards to income and profession relation) those who go into a humanities or liberal arts and sciences field make MORE money than your typical business/finance major. Obviously you will go on to get your Ph.D which will open the doorway to professorship which is bank in and of itself if part of your goal is self sustainment. In either field there is a ripe field to which you can publish, not only earning a great deal if respect for yourself from others but of yourself (assuming you are not terrible at conveying theory which I am giving the benefit of the doubt).

Theoretical Physics relates to Earthly matters, while Philosophy relates to that of the Mind, each I deem as equally important, beneficial, and respectable. (I personally am in graduate level PHI and find it highly interesting and satisfying, but I have seen equal enjoyment in Theoretical physics.)

In summary, don't listen to "what kind of job will you get with that degree?" Listen to what you enjoy, as you will inevitably be happier than working 9-5 in a cubicle like the vast majority you will encounter.

<3

<3. If you need any further advice in the field let me know i'd be glad to assist.

What do they teach you, what do you get taught? How long does it take before you get-it-going? Is it boring in the beginning? How is it later on? Difference? :))

Well everything essentially starts with Plato and Aristotle as far as philosophy goes. You either like one or the other depending on your personal views which you will find yourself strongly reevaluating as you read philosophical works (which I believe is a very important character of one's own virtue). Some of the works you will find incredibly boring like any text which you may not be interested in. For example, if you do not have any inclination as to governmental philosophy, you may find parts of The Republic by Plato to be the most boring thing you have ever read. In contrast, if you love the theory of knowledge and how knowledge is derived by reason / rationality which leads one to morality, etc, you may thoroughly enjoy reading The Republic as it discusses this as well. Philosophy has a great duality to it as one thing can always be paralleled with another and is connected to everything else in some way.

It is incredibly complex and confusing at first when beginning as you have no idea where all these ideas are coming from. However, as you read more works, you see that everything is connected, and can distinquish views between authors based on key abstract definitions of knowledge, morality, etc etc etc.

From this you will travel into more modern theorists and philosophy in which have more 'modern' and/or real world issues which can be debated and solved through key fundamentals taught in earlier philosophy classes. Debate being a key word here; as you study philosophy you will undoubtedly obtain the skill known as rhetoric, which is essentially the art of debate. As you learn more about the interworkings of definitions, themes, abstracts, subjects, etc, you will find yourself an exceptional figurehead among your peers in terms of being able to provide a statement and back it up fully, as well as taking someone else's statement and making them agree with you wholly without them being able to contest such. Rather hard to explain rather than to demonstrate but that is perhaps for a later time.

In later philosophy you have a great understanding of the interworkings of language and the derivations of knowledge and theory and all that you talk about and can begin to create your own theory that is either in accordance or contrast with major philosophers of times past. The great thing about philosophy is that there is always something to think about, it doesn't get mundane or old, as it is always new, ideas never cease to evolve and be born from yourself or others around you.

Publishing something is a very rewarding experience in and of itself, I myself have published three works, one of which was in the Standford Journal of Philosophy on a theory of mine relating to all action being unfair, which is for a discussion of its own but was well received. Not to mention giving a paper at a international conference because you were invited based on an abstract you submitted having it translated to major philosophers worldwide as you speak, very cool as well.

There is tons of 'money' in the field if it concerns you. For publishing in a journal you get quite a large sum (depending which one), not to mention all of the grants and free money you come into simply because you develop exceptional writing abilities that allow you to travel and study in foreign countries (if it interests you) at the governments expense, at least it is like that here in the US.

To recap:
Early on it is slightly confusing and will mindfuck you as it brings about notions that you have never conceived before. You get confused a lot, trust me, but it is so confusing that it makes you want to learn more. After you learn the basics, you start reformulating your own ideas. Advancing further you learn the interconnectivity of everything and anything within the field. Reading philosophy becomes increasingly easier, not to mention casual reading is simplistic and you can pick out themes / 'underlying' subject matter like never before. By your junior/senior year you will have some strong, well founded opinions on most everything that is of your interest and you will be able to crank out a 100+ page thesis on a philosophical abstract of your choice with great ease.

Kind of an overview, hope it helped.

Edit: Moreover, Philosophy in and of itself is more human nature / divine nature / society and social nature based, if you were to go into Theoretical Physics, there is tons of philosophy in that as well, but it is obviously brought about by scientific notions. To each his own, love what you do and do what you love, as a wise man once said.

Woah, yeah.. Thanks.

I know i have this underlying urge for philosophy, i just need some time to think, because i've always asumed i'd take physics or even math -- never really knew it was possible to take philosophy ;)

What do you think the difference would be if i studied it in my spare time rather than at uni, as some here advocate that i do?

Well I suppose it comes down to "do you want to publish articles/theory?" If you do, you are generally given more opportunities through uni, and grasping concepts is often alot easier when you have an experienced philosophy to discuss it with. If anything, get a minor in philosophy at least if you are interested in it.

I don't really feel all that sure about my writing yet, as i've only recently started focusing on writing properly (i still look up every 10th word); but it seems to be improving fast enough, so yeah; if i feel i'm good enough when i'm eligible, i sure would want to express what thoughts i may have in writing :)

Minor is 1 year?

More or less, at my current university a minor in Philisophy is 18 hours, which is doable in one semester actually but because some of the classes are pre-req's of the others, it is usually 2 semesters and thus a year of schooling. I highly suggest that though if it peaks your interest.

Watch out or you'll get Jamerioed again!!!

No, seriously, this is a nice topic and forn1x's introduction 'philosophy for dummies' was most welcome!

:)

He's so clever he does not need to make easy to understand childish :]

Wish I did philosophy after reading that. I'm pretty sure that was the post CPLains was waiting for.

I didn't know education had a select window of opportunity? Anything is possible.

True enough. Not my calling, however.

I appreciate what and how much you wrote, by the way. Rarely do you see people given such good advice for free.

Any further questions feel free to ask. :)

What type of mind is needed to excel in philosophy?

Such a small question requires such a large answer! This is probably going to be the answer I am least specific on as I am not a psychologist but a (pre-)philosopher, but I will give you my observations.

One would say that there is a difference in those that are good at say a) Math and another that is good at b) Writing/Literature c) Both. I would add Art and a few other things in there but that isn't necessarily relavent to our scenario. Now, don't ask me for factual percentages and the sort because this is simply my observation around my university and may be very different otherwise. Now, within each of these fields there is a very high level of rationality that the individial withholds, as each area requires a cenrtalized source of deduction, which is essentially what rationality is - the ability to deduct one from another and compare/contrast in a comprehendable manner. Thus, one who is good at Math uses his/her rationality to solve problems and sort through variables, etc, whilst one in Writing/Literature structures sentences, uses proper grammar, etc, by use of this same rationality. Now, the main difference (not the only, mind you) I have seen here is a rather cliche term but it fits nicely which is 'outside of the box thinking,' mixed with a lot of creativity.

These 2 notions are very individual based obviously. Given this, you have your person(s) who is good at Math, but not as good at Writing/Literature, Good at Writing/Literature, but not as good at Math, and those that are good at Both. I believe the foundation here is Math, as almost anyone can be 'good' at math depending on how hard they work at it, at least in my eyes. I think Writing/Literature is where the individuals are sorted out as they at limited by their mindset/train of thought. If one is solely stuck on the fundamental principles of the world around them and accepts them as they are always and unconditionally (I am not suggesting this is a negative thing), they tend to stray away from Writing/Literature and generally have a less 'creative' mind. Thus their limitation is Math, as everything has a instantaneous logic about it.

If it is one who questions things as they are, isn't quite sure that they are 'real' in the sense that because it is said to be it is, but there are alternate explanations that are possible - also known as the 'outside of the box' cognitive process. This of course births creativity as in order to think of that which is not 'real' it requires some imagination. To clarify my definition of 'real' we will say that which has not been acknowledged yet within the mind, for example an idea which has not yet been conceived is not 'real,' but the idea of a skyscraper is 'real.' Continuing on, this person has the same ability to do Math as the aforementioned, but because of this 'outside of the box thinking,' has the ability to construct theory. Theory being the creation of a new idea, thus making a new 'real' idea. Cool, eh?

Those 'outside of the box thinkers' are found in both fields quite obviously, as theory is created within Math and within Writing/Literature, one who is a theoretical physicist is a Math oriented 'outside of the box' thinker. They have the ability to do Writing/Literature, but choose to do Math as a personal preference - just as they could have easily of chosen solely the Writing/Literature.

So from this, pick which you think you are, and you will be able to answer your question as to whether Philosophy is right for you or not, at least partially. :-) Hope that helped, remember to take into account these are my observations, not necessarily fundamental principles to the human psyche. :-)

Rarely do you see something written so coherently and with such ease: I wanna learn! ::D

And yeah, it was probably what i was really waiting for :]

The only thing that was missing was some wrapping paper and a ribbon ;]

Yeah, like my mom or something always used to say; never give a present that's not carefully and beautifully wrapped in!

Speaking of calling, and strongly bordering CPLains' dilemma; theoretical physics was my calling. Unfortunately back then I was such a kid I figured that because it's my calling and I'm good at it, I don't need to work quite as hard. So I rather partied at nights and slept and played MUDs all days than did my homeworks and took lectures. At times I do think, like maybe at some point in the future I will think, that it all was a big mistake. (DUH FUCKING YES: Getting addicted to onlinegames most definately is one of the biggest mistakes one is bound to make!), but I rebounded, beat the odds and grew up.

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i beat the odds of the reply of your post ikr nmeniefni sefninnn f<fn

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The super string theory and the quantum theory is = to advanced philosophy. Go for it.

do the one with least work = more party time