Glad to see you're enjoying Linux. As much as you can hate Windows XP and the lack of control and bla bla bla,it just installs an almost complete OS and is very easy to update with other stuff. I honestly can't think of any way to get Linux running without Internet access as you'll always need this or that file, and lots of tutorials. I like the whole opensource idea, and it's usually not that bad to work on Unix systems at uni. But when it comes to my home pc, I can't be arsed to spend countless hours (or days) just to get everything running the way it's running under Windows after like 2 hours.

you're comparing UNIX to Linux why? regardless, your personal experience and knowledge means little in the grand scheme of things.

I consider Linux to be some kind of Unix with KDE. The whole shell thing and filesystem are rather similar, or not?

win 3.11 shell and windows xp shells can look alike aswell. =/+,

try unix commands in the windows xp shell, good luck.

try unix commands in linux?

working fine here

oh ok then :)

uh what? they are both operating systems, entirely independent of one another. I fail to see how a window manager has anything to do with that?

hah, i know exactly what you went through, altho i had more bandwith and no cap :S

Thanks for reminding me not to install Linux at home.

Windows millenium!!!!!

wow, maybe I should start appreciating my omgplxhaxcheat0ping-connection afterall.

Debian/GNU <3

wrong distribution imho. ubuntu/kubuntu is much better for noobs and more user-friendly overall. also, it haven't those limitations afaik (and totem with the mplayer's essential codec pack can play _everything_).
debian ftw anyway.

aye ubuntu is great to start with. Especially since it supports so much out of the box. It installed drivers for everything on my IBM laptop something windows doesn't do.

ahaha

!?!?!?!?!?

agreed

* borda is away (apt-get install real-life)
* borda is now known as borda`bnc

OMG HACKER

your distribution doesn't have real-life package? :(
do you want a repository? :\

doesn't really matter what distro you go for though. they are mostly just predefined packs of software one group of people prefer over the other, wrapped around the latest kernel.

the bigger collection of software, usually means worse. since there will be multiple applications who do the same/similar tasks, really dislike that.
and most of these will require the kernel to spread it's legs wide open. linux owns though, but can be quite a jungle if you're not familiar with it :)

Well an update. I stayed up till 7am. I practically got everything working, mp3's play (although the player crashes constantly.) Movies play (woo hoo! porn!) I'm using gaim for my msn and icq (yes I use these things OK!) And I've even gotten quake 4 working, however, I now need a cd key or an original version, because there is no way (that I know of) to change the authorisation server. But I'll probably go buy the game in a day or 2.

Quake 3 is eluding me, I've gotten it to run, but it's crashed on me and the mouse doesn't work, don't know the problem. Once I get all the main things sorted out I'm going to try and get this thing looking pretty and easy to use.

/etc/hosts

That folder doesn't exist on this version, i got the mouse working though \o/

It's not a folder, it's a file. He meant (I think) that you could use it to redirect the authorization requests. See Wikipedia for more info. You'll need root access to change the file.

I see, ta

are you using point release 1.32b? it fixed a few linux issues if i recall

also i tried suse and thought it was decent, however ubuntu does seem to be less hassle and quicker to get things setup the way you want at the start.

duel partition are sooo handy..

Yeah I got quake 3 running fine, it actually runs better than in windows, however it still tends to just crash every now and then.

Quake 4 runs better, the sens is the same as in windows, however, when I run it, i get constant fps but it still feels jerky? I think it may be the mouse, and also, it's confused alot of keys on the keyboard (I play on the numpad)

Check to see what refresh rate your using, it might not be set right in linux, that can sometimes make the mouse feel different

most cases of linux are a pain. not that windows wouldnt be a pain, but in the end computers are pain. painfully experiences, etc

everyone should have a nix partition, just for a learning experience and especially now that Mr. Gates wants you to buy a new license for upgrading your MB.
http://www.aviransplace.com/index.php/archive...w-licence/

This really pisses me off, now every time I call MS I will be working with a DEFECTIVE MB.

thanx for reminding me not to install unix again,
if I read that shit with downloading 300 MB Updates for an OS that is around like only 3 months ... also Linux gets outdated very fast, all 3 months a new version of the distribution gets out ... off course you are not charged for the open source software, but for the proprietary software ... configuration tools etc. .... just a pain in the ass this whole linux shit with its configurations and workarounds ... it's also funny how the linuxusers talk that linux is equal to windows applicationwise ... not only some applications lack for linux, but also the way the applications function is much worse than on windows, it is already annoying you can't copy&paste in a folderopen window of an application ... all these "little" details ... but in the end they sum up and have a huge impact ...

Gzzzt is completely right ...

I really think some people only install linux, to show off they are more hardcore than others, cuz nowadays with windows everything has become too easy, all the women know how to surf the web, install applications and stuff ... people who sit to long in front of computer get annoyed of the fact that they aren't any better than normal users ... so they install linux ...configuring computer systems is really a damn cool hobby :/

problem with computer is, everything has bugs somewhere ...
also the Q4 Level editor has bugs ... it can actually kill your mapfile ... if you haven't saved a backup file ... you have to go into the mapfile with an editor and delete some lines, so you can return to your work that lacks some brushes ... in case you don't know how to resolve this problem, youre fucked up and have to start new ... it's always this shit with the computers ... we can really be thankful that our reality has no bugs

you've installed UNIX?

if I read that shit with downloading 300 MB Updates for an OS that is around like only 3 months ... also Linux gets outdated very fast, all 3 months a new version of the distribution gets out

er, this is a bad thing? wow. an operating system that's properly updated. we can't have THAT! wouldn't we all just love to live in a world where Microsoft ruled, never releasing any thing of worth, and naturally never patching all of the security flaws that are sure to arrive in their software?
I'm baffled at this. If you don't want the "updates," then don't download them. No one is forcing you to do so.

just a pain in the ass this whole linux shit with its configurations and workarounds

ok, let's get this straight once and for all: are you talking about UNIX or Linux? two entirely different things. I'll assume you're talking about Linux.
I don't understand, then, why you're complaining about its configurability? And this, too, is a bad thing how? You don't WANT configurability? I guess you support Microsoft's eager dumbing down of their products. It puts things on your level, I suppose. I'm betting you live in a country where you're not allowed to vote or voic your opinion, too. That'd just be far too much work on your part. Why have the ability to decide, when others can do it for me? Of course!
The configurability is there in case you don't want to be locked in to whatever the distribution manager and the kernel managers decided for you. If you're complaining about initial configuration, then that's just asinine. It varies from distribution to distribution.
Complain about the distribution, not Linux or its model.
Further, in a majority of instances, there's hardly anything at all to configure more than on "Windows," though it may be more transparent in the Microsoft product.

And if you're so keen on lumping UNIX together with Linux, then I suggest you try some real Unices variants.
It's like calling all video games of the "action" or "adventure" genre the same thing. Try comparing Mario Brothers and The Legend of Zelda. I don't think they're quite the same, but you may disagree.

I really think some people only install linux, to show off they are more hardcore than others, cuz nowadays with windows everything has become too easy, all the women know how to surf the web, install applications and stuff

Where were you the past 10 years, then? People have been doing that with Linux, BSD, et al for ages. They've been doing it with just about anything you can think of, for ages.
Women can install Linux too. It's not particularly an amazing feat these days, you know? Besides, as you've alluded to, we're talking about the desktop market. And if the intent is for these people to argue Linux's usability in that market, then it makes no sense to say that a woman of average standing shouldn't be able to install an operating system based upon it.

people who sit to long in front of computer get annoyed of the fact that they aren't any better than normal users ... so they install linux ...configuring computer systems is really a damn cool hobby :/

Huh? This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. You installed Linux, didn't you? (I'm assuming, again)
So I hope you're not saying that you installed it because you want to be better than "normal users?'"
What's to say that these 'people who sit too long in front of their computer'
are actually people like you - people who wanted to try Linux for the desktop - who happened to have a better experience? Maybe they had more patience. Maybe they just didn't bitch at every chance. Maybe they realized how they'd been trained to use Windows and its facilities over the years. I'm not saying the learning curve is linearly analogous, but you don't think that one can just jump in to Windows and use it fluently, do you? ..especially on the level that you're probably used to? Are you saying you haven't configured Windows at all? I'm sure many Linux, BSD distributions will work just fine out of the box, but you don't want to just leave them that way? Unless you're implying that you've left Internet Explorer, all the MSN and AOL links, Windows Media, Messenger, and all of that cruft on your computer? And you just use it all with the default settings and everything? Well, I don't think you're really in a position to judge anything, then. No one ever said using a computer in the modern day requires no responsibility or effort. Some people actually enjoy the freedoms they get. Some people don't actually want that "Messenger" with Viagra ads from people in China. Some people don't want their computer taken over by spyware, instantaneously. I guess you're happy with it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That Linux gives you more "freedom" then Windows is a myth based on some gurus who live for Linux and really can do what they want. I´d say that more then 90% of the Linux users are a slave to their distro and cant even get the dozens of crappy "linuxgames" away from their startbar or desktop and are totally dependant to their distro to fix errors for them. I dont see the difference.
Beside Linux isnt much safer then Windows at all, just forget to update one service which has a critical bug and off you go, catch some rootkits etc. But since Linux is a holy cow its not really much written about that side.

That Linux gives you more "freedom" then Windows is a myth based on some gurus who live for Linux and really can do what they want. I´d say that more then 90% of the Linux users are a slave to their distro and cant even get the dozens of crappy "linuxgames" away from their startbar or desktop

I'd consider myself around the "guru" category, though I'm clearly not on the level of some of the big open source hackers. And it's not me who's running these Linux desktop enviroments with crazy wallpapers, window managers, and whatnot. it's gamers and geeks and some normal people. I don't know where you got the 90% statistic, but you probably pulled that out of your rear. While I don't think Linux/etc is quite ready for mass market (though, I can't say, since I haven't tried many distributions out in the past four or five years), the userbase right now seems to be fairly proficient - so I think it's a bit less than accurate to say that any majority of users can't do what they want with their system, after all, that's the whole point. but I really don't see where you get off thinking this is a myth by any means. You're denying that Windows ties you down, or are you just saying that Linux provides no better freedom? either way, it is clearly wrong. The fact that the source is available for Linux and many of the applications and components that oft tagalong with seems to invalidate this point of view. With Linux, open source, et al you have the option to choose. You can choose what application you want, what window manager you want, what packages you want. Whether or not it is easy to do so is really better left up to the particular individual. But if you're honestly thinking that open source, as a whole, means that you're provided with a slew of applications that you don't need, and that you're unable to easily get rid of, then you can't have tried many distributions. You're obviously trying the wrong ones. And that's another component: with Windows, you don't have the freedom to choose an alternative. Of course, it may seem tedious to have to actively seek out something that's right for you, but isn't that part of the responsibility of using a computer? And isn't that the whole idea? I don't think you can really expect a distribution to come with every thing that's _just right for you_, configured and everything out of the box. Trying to do that is the antithesis of the open source movement, much akin to Windows itself. If you've tried different distributions with the same result, and you're really so flustered about the "Linux games" and all that other jazz that is appearing on your desktop per default, then why don't you try out a minimalist distro like Gentoo that only installs what you want? Is it too difficult to install? Well, then, I don't really see how you have a right to complain. These distros you're using have tried to make it as simple as possible, so as to cut down on usability issues: trying to find the right programs, plugins, codecs, and whatnot. Linux usability used to be far worse, and when they better it, you're complaining that it's too much? If they hadn't packaged anything at all, I'm sure you'd be quite flummoxed. I understand that your point is it seems to be too difficult for the average user to learn how to "remove" the cruft that they don't want, but tell me, how is the process of removing Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, etcetera from Windows? Have you tried it? Can you even do it at all, in some cases? I can't see how you can complain about having freedom to choose. And I'm pretty sure that most popular distributions give you the option of what packages to build at install time. Correct me if I'm wrong there, as well.

Beside Linux isnt much safer then Windows at all, just forget to update one service which has a critical bug and off you go, catch some rootkits etc. But since Linux is a holy cow its not really much written about that side.

This is misinformed at best. You don't "catch rootkits," for starters. Generally, people who compromise your computer install them. I'm not aware of very many viruses or worms in the wild for Linux operating systems and whatnot. This is hardly a defense of the security of Linux (considering 100% of the computers I've compromised in the past were Open Source Operating Systems), but rather, that I don't see how you've come to this conclusion, when the premise of OSS is that there's no 'standard set of applications.' How would you go about writing a worm? Would you write it for KDE applications? What if the user is using Galleon to browse. Firefox, Netscape, Safari? IE in Wine (or natively on Solaris, BSD.. I think)? A mitigating factor for the exploitation of the installbase is that it's never static. Success is minimized. And I'm not sure where you're really getting your information. I don't think there are any distributions that install needless services these days. If they are, perhaps you just failed to play close enough attention in the install process? I really haven't seen any remote services started by default since RH 6.2 or so. I'm not doubting that such ignorance still exists, but that lay in the idiocy of the distribution managers, not the idea of OSS itself. The variants I've used in recent times have had absolutely nothing unnecessary running in the background. Compare this with Windows and RPC, NetBIOS Session, et al. These attack vectors are wide open in Windows, and further, they're the same for every Windows machine: because you can't remove them, precisely.

You make so many assumptions and guesses about me, yet they are all negative. Why do you base wide parts of your argumentation on those very onesided assumptions?
I used Linux for quite a long time, prolly much longer then you did, but in the end I decided to use Windows because I felt like I spent more time keeping the system running and improving it then actually working with it. I was looking for a System to work and play with, and not one to play around with.
Its a personal Impression of me and you dont need to agree on it.

You make so many assumptions and guesses about me, yet they are all negative. Why do you base wide parts of your argumentation on those very onesided assumptions?

Huh? I've only made one assumption in my entire post, and it was the result of a mistake in what I meant to type:

I'm not aware of very many viruses or worms in the wild for Linux operating systems ... that I don't see how you've come to this conclusion

Obviously, you'd never mentioned anything directly about viruses or worms on Linux/OSS.
Beyond this, the closest thing I'd made to an assumption was based upon the information you provided in your post. Provide me with a specific example that you're perturbed about, and I'll tell you how I came to write it.

I used Linux for quite a long time, prolly much longer then you did, but in the end I decided to use Windows because I felt like I spent more time keeping the system running and improving it then actually working with it./q]
Now I'm making assumptions? It seems like this was just an excuse to sneak in a personal jab or something. I think I've been using Linux since 1998 or something, so maybe you have and maybe you haven't. I'm not entirely sure how that's relevant, really. Perhaps this is in reference to my first line where I babbled something about being of high standing in the area. It wasn't to gloat, but merely to attempt to establish a position of discussion.

For what it's worth, I use Windows on my desktop as well. I've never used Linux/OSS on my [primary] desktop for more than around a six month period before, that I can recall.
Maybe you missed the part in that paragraph where I implied this.


[q]because I felt like I spent more time keeping the system running and improving it then actually working with it. I was looking for a System to work and play with, and not one to play around with.

Ehm. Actually, I do. Your original post was arguing the opposite of what you say now. Originally, it was a myth. But now you're saying that you _can_ improve, maintain, and play around with Linux more than you can Windows? Yeah, ok, make up your mind. But again, this is part of the responsibility of using a computer. You can't be "lazy" if you want to stay up with security, especially on the Windows front! If you're not keeping proper maintenance practices on Windows, then all I can say is you're under the false impression that you don't need to. All operating systems must be maintained on the modern internet. And Windows more than any. Maybe you know something I don't (I normally read Bugtraq, Vuln-Dev, Linux Security, etc), but I haven't seen nearly as much from the OSS side of applications and security vulnerabilities on mailing lists, as I have from Windows applications that you cannot remove. I'm not saying OSS is infallible, again, quite contrary. But what I am saying is that on Windows, you have several background services which you cannot disable, and vulnerabilities have been found in this services numerous times. Again, on Linux, I am not aware of any unnecessary services that are installed without your consent. And again, on Windows, you are tied in to Microsoft Internet Explorer, or atleast having it on your computer. And how many people know there are alternatives, or care? Windows needs much more to maintain it than does OSS, because Windows incorporates so much into its operating system. The recent WMF vulnerability: you can be exploited with ANY browser. Why? Because the media components that are vulnerable are in the OPERATING SYSTEM. Now, compare this with a browser specific vulnerability that's going to be platform-dependent (I can't very well do a JMP in a buffer overflow exploit when I don't know the proper offset), application and version dependent, and overall, if you're not running as root, with minimal effect.

Is my english so bad or do you mistake me on purpose? My approach was like 'I hate all operating systems, they are all crap', which was followed by 'They are all crap, but based on blabla I personally / in my own opinion prefer ... '
Now you reply 'Your opinion is wrong, and as a fact Linux is better because...', but you completly lack the understanding of my idea, which was 'I prefer this ... because of ...'.
Can you follow me so far or will further elaboration help?

so you've nothing to say?

Just a suggestion: paragraphs would be nice.

Indeed ... I started reading but ... couldn't be arsed to continue.

I have a short attention span and long paragraphs are very stressful for me, but I read enough of that post to + it. Anyone who says that Linux doesn't give you more freedom than Windows just doesn't know what they're talking about. Everything is customisable in Linux if you have the programming skills. gzzzt I think is misinformed - I don't know where you got the 90% of Linux users statistic, but do you have the statistic for the percentage of scripted attacks and viruses on the internet that are specifically targetted at Windows machines? I have seen unfirewalled Linux servers go years without an update, where a Windows server would certainly have been hit by the likes of Sasser or Blaster.

t-b0n3: I have had problems with the installation programs in the past, but even on my DSL which had a 4gig monthly cap, it was worth burning the install image to a CD because it is best to have the option to mess about with a couple of distros. Ubuntu is definitely a good choice, and there is lots of support available on it, including guides for setting up Quake3/4.

If configuring Linux makes you angry, then go back to Windows and wait another few years until Linux becomes more accessible for a non-technical person. If you don't mind spending a bit of time trying to get things working, then perservere with it and it will be worth it. Things get easier very quickly once you learn a couple of things. Once you have your system the way you want it then programs like apt make it very worthwhile.

I installed FreeBSD, and I did actually suceed in configuring my system,
I got my ISDN CARD running with ISDN4BSD, I got my SB Live to function (but only with standard pcm driver, because there was no special driver avaible at the time, I don't know if there is now, but now I use XFI, and for that card there is currently also no driver avaible), compiled the kernel, and also installed XServer and ports from Mozilla to StarOffice.
Well I got everything running after reading books of helpfiles and manuals.
But I quite often listen to mp3s while surfing the web for example,
and tbh. the soundquality with the standarddriver was shit, and I'm also not sure if this soundcard will ever reach windowsstandard with an reverse enginered driver. that was one thing.
The other thing that annoyed me were the fonts, they were full of pixels, just not fine, that annoyed me too. And of course what do you do if you want to use a more special program like serverbrowser or chesssoftware, nothing is avaible ... recently I bought myself a Razermouse, I don't know the software is probably not avaible for linux ... and on everything you want to do, you have to invest vast hours of research to get it running and in some cases you will find out it's just impossible.
I only tried to use FreeBSD the first few days, then I returned to windows,
and after 3 months I decided to delete the FreeBSD partition,
cuz it only ate up space on my harddisk.
And every once in a year I try a live-linux-cd from that is included in magazines ... I mean, the configuration has become easier, linux does now autodetect the hardware, but still the lacks of drivers, the lack of good software, the usability problems leave me no choice but to continue using windows. And tbh. my Win2K never crashed a single time, and with sandbox and firewall installed on my computer, no malicious attempts suceeded so far, also the option in windows media player that sends anonymous data to microsoft ... you can actually disable that.
I'm quite glad to use serverbrowsers for Q4 like ASE or Q4Echelon,
tbh. I don't wanna know what linux users use ;-)
and also my XFI has a splendid soundquality on windows,
I don't wanna what it sounds like on linux, creative doesn't provide any drivers and I haven't seen an alternative driver neither,
and this card is out now for more than 6 months

"I'm baffled at this. If you don't want the "updates," then don't download them. No one is forcing you to do so."

My Windows is kept uptodate with its updatesoftware,
but youre right, if I had to do a 300 MB download every 3 months like in linux, I wouldn't update windows neither.

"You don't WANT configurability?"
"Further, in a majority of instances, there's hardly anything at all to configure more than on "Windows," though it may be more transparent in the Microsoft product."

I want configurability, but somehow in linux configurability means to look up a manual, to don't understand it, asking a question on usenet,
and after numerous tries on the commandline and in editing configuration files, you get it done or give up totally frustrated.
In Windows I do 3 clicks with my mouse and everything is done,
for example installing new hardware, that can't be autodetected by the system, I just go into hardware manager, select the driver from cd, and (sometimes after reboot) I can use it, hf loading your modules and compiling your kernel on linux and editing configurationfiles of your programs.

"Women can install Linux too. It's not particularly an amazing feat these days, you know? "

Sure they can, but what do they look like :/

"So I hope you're not saying that you installed it because you want to be better than "normal users?'"

Actually I didn't, I wanted to explore a new world, I wanted to take the challenge of unix, I wanted to get richer on experience, but now after several years have passed and I analyze my try at Unix, I think it can subconsciously only mean that, and it means that for almost everyone.
You easily see if a linuxuser isn't ideological if you ask them about apple,
almost everyone of them you ask will say apple is a cool , they like them, they even use macs to run linux on it. But tbh if apple dominated the market, they would be the same as microsoft and they actually are even worse, they do not only keep their software closed source, they also control the hardware market, but linux user say they are cool, because they are not as powerful as microsoft ... but if you compare ideologies of apple and ms you won't see much of a difference.

"Some people don't want their computer taken over by spyware, instantaneously. I guess you're happy with it. Correct me if I'm wrong."

the moment is yet to come that someone breaks through my sandbox and firewall on windows. secondly you can disable the anonymousdata option from media player.

The other thing that annoyed me were the fonts, they were full of pixels, just not fine, that annoyed me too. And of course what do you do if you want to use a more special program like serverbrowser or chesssoftware, nothing is avaible

Most of the X servers and suites have better font support than Windows. It's not my fault that you didn't get them working.

I mean, the configuration has become easier, linux does now autodetect the hardware, but still the lacks of drivers, the lack of good software, the usability problems leave me no choice but to continue using windows.

Yes, it does lack drivers. However, I think you're more than off base saying it lacks good software. Most of the OSS software, IMHO, is better than their Win32 equivelants. This doesn't mean that all of it is or isn't, and you may have a valid point when it comes to games, office suites, and whatnot.

also the option in windows media player that sends anonymous data to microsoft ... you can actually disable that.

I don't see why you brought this random 'feature' into discussion. It poses little or no relevance.

I want configurability, but somehow in linux configurability means to look up a manual, to don't understand it, asking a question on usenet,
and after numerous tries on the commandline and in editing configuration files, you get it done or give up totally frustrated.
In Windows I do 3 clicks with my mouse and everything is done,
for example installing new hardware, that can't be autodetected by the system, I just go into hardware manager, select the driver from cd, and (sometimes after reboot) I can use it, hf loading your modules and compiling your kernel on linux and editing configurationfiles of your programs.

I sincerely doubt this. Yes, some things that can be done in Windows are [superficially] simpler than to do them in OSS. However, you are able to do more with OSS, and with more customization.
Further, compiling a kernel and loading modules is a very simple task. I don't see how it's any different from being trained to go to "Add/Remove H ardware" and whatnot in Windows, other than that you might run into compile time errors. :)
Configuration files and command line utilities are much, much, much more efficient and usable than their GUI counterparts. Obviously, it's not always the case, but it is a good general rule of thumb. I've used Apache for years, and when I tried to use the IIS configuration interface, it was a horrendous experience. Maybe it would be easier, superficially again, without much investigation. But if you're truly about customizing your applications, then I can't see how you'd complain about the added flexibility. And if you're not, then I can't see how you'd need to change much more than the default. There is some time spent learning the features of every application you install, is there not?

Sure they can, but what do they look like :/

My ex girlfriend was a pretty attractive blond, if I may say so. And I have high standards.

You easily see if a linuxuser isn't ideological if you ask them about apple,
almost everyone of them you ask will say apple is a cool , they like them, they even use macs to run linux on it. But tbh if apple dominated the market, they would be the same as microsoft and they actually are even worse, they do not only keep their software closed source, they also control the hardware market, but linux user say they are cool, because they are not as powerful as microsoft ... but if you compare ideologies of apple and ms you won't see much of a difference.

I really don't see why you brought Apple into discussion at all. It's like me saying that George Bush hates Coca Cola because it's so large, and loves Pepsi because it does things the way he wants, under a lesser monopoly. (I suppose because he wants control over the soda industry)
And if Pepsi became the dominant beverage, George Bush would hate it. OH yeah, and George Bush uses Linux. So Pepsi is just as bad as Coca Cola.
Hold on there, that made no sense at all. Actually.. I may be on to something, but I digress.
And while it's offtopic, I might say that I completely disagree with what you've said about Apple. The platform is completely different. Have you ever tried OS X? I see a very, very large ideological difference between Microsoft and Apple.

the moment is yet to come that someone breaks through my sandbox and firewall on windows. secondly you can disable the anonymousdata option from media player.

Again, I don't see why you're bringing up this random bit of information about an irrelevant feature in Windows Media Player.
The fact that you have a "firewall" and "sandbox" configured was exactly my point. Didn't you have to set up and configure those devices? And how is this different from setting up and configuring their OSS equivelants?

You always talk about the customizability (does this word exist?) of linux/unix,
yes, I agree with you on that, linux/unix is much more customizable as windows. But it's not like windows ist not customizable at all,
you really have to know for yourself if this Plus on customziability is of a certain worth.

Of course, if you have spent a certain amount of time in configuring linux/unix systems and you got routine, it is easy to configure the systems,
but if you start using an OS ... shoudln't you learn the OS that has the lowest learning curve? and the learning curve of linux is probably 5 times as high as the windows learning curve.
Why should an experienced windows user actually make the switch to linux?

the apple thing was only meant as an example ... I mean most users are they really honest ... do they really believe in freedom? in open source? ...
and if they don't believe in these things, why do they use linux, a system from user perspective just has too much disadvantages and is far more complex ... is it the joy they get out of editing configfiles and reading manuals? or is it the fact they can say of themselves "look at me, I run linux, I am so leet"

"Again, I don't see why you're bringing up this random bit of information about an irrelevant feature in Windows Media Player.
The fact that you have a "firewall" and "sandbox" configured was exactly my point. Didn't you have to set up and configure those devices? And how is this different from setting up and configuring their OSS equivelants?"

how should I interpret this then?
"Some people don't want their computer taken over by spyware, instantaneously. I guess you're happy with it. Correct me if I'm wrong."

what do you want to say by this, that windows media player is installed by default and sends data to microsoft? or that windows is easily compromised by worms/viruses and users gain control over my system and spy me out? what do you wanna say by that?

You always talk about the customizability (does this word exist?) of linux/unix,

ahahaahah, good call. NOT LIKE I CAN COMBINE TWO WORDS AND BE CUTE. YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF LANGUAGE FAR EXCEEDS MINE. BRAVO, SIR.

yes, I agree with you on that, linux/unix is much more customizable as windows. But it's not like windows ist not customizable at all,
you really have to know for yourself if this Plus on customziability is of a certain worth.

uhh, I think I'm well acquainted with Windows, considering I've been using it since around 1992. so what's your point?

Of course, if you have spent a certain amount of time in configuring linux/unix systems and you got routine, it is easy to configure the systems,
but if you start using an OS ... shoudln't you learn the OS that has the lowest learning curve? and the learning curve of linux is probably 5 times as high as the windows learning curve.

bahahah I highlty doubt this. if you could substantiate this with any sort of evidence, you might come off better.

Why should an experienced windows user actually make the switch to linux?

I never said they should. so what's your point?

the apple thing was only meant as an example ... I mean most users are they really honest ... do they really believe in freedom? in open source? ...

I don't know. Did most 1950s Americans believe in freedom? Because it's pretty hard to believe that anyone could believe in freedom. I imagine we were really envious of communist nations and dictatorships around that time. Of course we were.

and if they don't believe in these things, why do they use linux, a system from user perspective just has too much disadvantages and is far more complex ... is it the joy they get out of editing configfiles and reading manuals? or is it the fact they can say of themselves "look at me, I run linux, I am so leet"

Perhaps if you had any evidence at all that it were complex, then you'd be on to something. However, the fact that it's complex and one's able to use it voids your argument that these people want attention for their abilities. WTF kind of bullshit is this?
I'm starting to wonder whether you have your own insecurity about the use of OSS, or maybe you just couldn't hack it and so you're frustrated. Bad experiences breed bad attitudes.

what do you want to say by this, that windows media player is installed by default and sends data to microsoft?

What the hell is it with you and Windows Media Player?

too bad you're full of ignorance :-(
you want to 'win' this discussion with unfair methods ...
just citing phrases partially to give them a false meaning ...
this is not a constructive way to discuss ...
noone in the discussion wins if they don't search for wisdom
and only want to win the discussion for the sake of winning,
there is no logic anymore in the discussion.
What is the benefit of winning an internet discussion for the sake of winning?
is it your virtual reputation?
But you know what, this behaviour of you already shows that you already lost, and you know it. You would come up with rational argument if you could.

haha so typical of anyone who replies.

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ever tried selecting(copy) & middlemousebutton(paste)? :P that's the native way to do c&p on linux, some apps support ctrl+c/v but maybe not in between others.
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i wouldn't say there is a lack of apps, it's just a matter of finding them (for me). but most distributions come with a package manager, which is a fucking easy way to install/update/search applications.
want to get _all_ your installed programs up-to-date? emerge world (on gentoo for example), voila. doing that on windows? have fun browsing all the websites of all programs, checking current version, downloading, unpacking, installing, .... :)
seems like suse doesn't have a sophisticated package manager, don't go for suse then.

as for most day-to-day applications i use i found a _better_ one. that's right, it might took me a few months/years to stumble over it but as with most linux stuff, it takes time... but if you get there, you will be there forever (talking about configuration and stuff).
naming few:
- amarok (i used foobar2000 on windows, then used foobar2000 on linux (emulation) and finally found amaroK, which i like even more than foobar2000).
- tv watching app: i hated all the tvapps on windows... iirc after testing about 5+ of them i found one that was ok. tvtime on linux is just awesome compared to the others...
- gfx: photoshop -> gimp (which runs on linux and windows...)
- msoffice->openoffice (which runs on linux and windows...)

but of course there are also apps i'm missing like a sophisticated download manager (getright) which i couldn't find yet.
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your example with the q4map editor is an example that speaks against windows ;) if the application was a windows native one then this mapfile would have been saved of course as binaryfile or in some registryfile where you end up doing so much more work to 'fix' it if you can.
luckily for us, idsoftware owns.
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when did you last format/reinstall your windows? i installed linux/gentoo once on my workstation 3-4years ago.. has been there since then, although i went through a big kernel updated (2.4->2.6). and i install/uninstall lots of applications.. it's not getting slower/unstable because of that.
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using linux takes more (learning) time... but it does waste less! that's an important fact, too, i guess...
you get it right once, it stays right...

and of course i use linux to be leet : D how else could i choose an operating system that's not from microsoft? ;)

configuring computer systems is really a damn cool hobby :/

fixing them, too :\
i have enough friends/family with windows (and on my laptop) and they sometimes need help fixing it. that's when i realize how fucking glad i am i don't have _those_ problems anymore.

but anyway, linux isn't the right OS for everyone... and windows has its positive things, too. *g*

It's just a matter of getting used to configuring via text files.
If it's understandable then I would prefer text files to the massive, ugly, different styled, confuzing dialogs.

I'll add my penny here. I'm no linux guru, but I have 30 or so websites on a linux box in N.C. and wanted to have a partition locally running the same versions of linix, PHP, MySQL and perl as to be able to really test the scripts I write before I FTP or put them on the server and hope they work. It was not a really hard thing to do... it may have taken up some of my time, but I have good backups :)

It was a great learning experience and I also use that partition to play Q3. My ping displays 3 or 4 lower and it just feels smoother. (besides the faster/better Q3 server browser XQF). I hate (don't know) GIMP (much different than photoshop) so I can't totally give up windows, but I hope to soon.

Open source is not for ppl without spare time and smarts :)

Please send your penny to the first Katrina fund you see.

fuckin hell quit with the novels u cunts...

Tyrone, you and cars just don't mix.

:(

I used linux (Fedora) to play quake 4 for a while. Fedora has a nifty program called yum to install things like vlc. It automatically works out dependencies and downloads the extra programs that are needed.

I gave up on linux for games after a few weeks. There was little things that annoyed me. Like not being able to get openal to work properly and wierd mouse lag every know and again.

I've got duel-boot system now with XP and fedora. Just using linux for my uni work and XP for games ect.