tough match for czm :)

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8176/sweatingrr5.jpg

hah, yeah. there is a photo of him from a year or two ago where he had sweaty pits after a game. it's oil, not sweat though

oil?

because he's a machine, man. a robotman............

Persperation of a champion.

He totally should do business and launch a trademark "czm antiperspirant - for fast and furious"

Hahahah, nice...

pro-dm6 is such a flawed map. i can't wait to see it go

Getting rid of pro-q3dm6 from Q3 would be like removing DM2 from QW :(

IT'S JUST WRONG!

no, I'm sick of dm6
every situation has been played more than 10 times already and every jump is known...

would be glad to see some new maps for upcoming q3-events. THAT would make q3 high-class again!

Incase you didn't know, Aerowalk was originally a Quake(1) map.. however it seems to be the most refreshing map that Q3 has to offer at the moment.

Oh the irony.

and even that isin the rotation for more than two years...

I don't care.
Just wanna see some NEW action.
(aerowalk is cool btw)

€: maybe dm6 is pissing me off cuz every friggin public tdm server got this map on. and if you happen you want to CHANGE the map... LOL, forget about it !

Regardless of however 'bad' or 'good' aerowalk may be, it is the exact kind of frantic action that Angel Munoz would want to display at one his tournaments. And in that regard, aerowalk has succeeded immensely, and I hope to see other frantic levels used such as aerowalk.

ztn showcases brain, and that's interesting. dm6 showcases control, and that isn't as interesting. aerowalk showcases mechanical play mixed with extreme combos and aim. I like that.

refreshing but still shit

thats not irony

if Q1 made a comeback and replaced Q3 because of the popularity of the Q1 map within Q3 - that would be ironic

true, true

everything has been played 10 times? well maybe thousands of times, for the usual player

watch cooller-czm cooller pov

Dm2 in QW is only good when the players are agressive. If you watch mutilator play dm2 you'll probably die of boredom.

True.
And if you watch LocKtar you will be sprayin'!

I'm a reload fanboy... OK?! :D

OK!
Reload & Griffin @ dm4 is also good spray.

How good is spraying? ;)

Amazing. One million GTV'ers can't be wrong.

EAT SHIT, a billion flies cant be wrong

lol

dm2 is the least played 1v1 map

DM2 sux

unless you're australian

jibo got the worst possible spawn, on all three maps..... alltimes lucky...

¦]

that's |] for you nowadays.

i don't think he would have won 4 maps against czm anyway tbh :P

jibo survived countless times with only 2 or 4 hp and managed to escape both against cooller and czm in crucial moments

indeed. Saying Jibo got unlucky really is having no clue of whatever happened vs cooller and czm. :)

Fuck dm6

Heres a map-pool your you all: q3tourney2, pro-q3tourney4 ztn3tourney1 and hu3tourney1.
Fucking new shit all the time blabla, sickeniiiiiiing! </3

Allows new dudes and TDM players just to join up and aim.

Blah, hate this stupid shit.
I guess, destroy dm6 and I am happy. ( And 95% of the other 1on1 players out there )

yes, bring back t2! (although i'd rather just have all new maps)

t2 is shaft only .....

no
t2 is "let's camp the teleporter" only

so is ztn with lower teleporter (jibo style) :)

more RL than lg tbh

Indeed, RL to do the damage then LG to finish off.

superhyperp1mp computers and perfected netcode made it shaft only

i remember what it was having 100 200 on t2 in the beginning - invincible
today: go round a corner, 2 sec shaft, dead

bring back shitty netcode pls

q3tourney2 is even more fucked up

t2 is cool to play, boring to watch

t2 is a pain in the ass to play and boring to watch.

new schools...

it was already a pain in the ass to play and boring to watch in 2000

every map was boring to watch and play at that time... Obviously you don't remember how ztn used to be called zZztn before cooller began RJ'ing all around it and how it ended up most of the time in 1-0, 3-1 scores.. :)

ye, if22 style :D
and b100.death too :D

Indeed, zztn was better than a handful of sleeping pills! Anyone remember the russians hiding at teleporter or on the buggy roof? Nowadays ztn is totally cool, if it's thanks to cooller, more power to him!

What about uNkind? He made ztn what it is today imo.

Good point, I would lump cooller together with uNkind.. the russians I was referring to are polosatiy, pow3r, b100.death..

oops, you just forgot LeXeR :P

Well my timeline might be wrong but I'd say cooller was known well before uNkind, so he probably was the first to play ztn that agressively and that succesfully.
And in any case uNkind never showed up to ESWC, be it visa problems or his beeing inactive, so as a punishment I just ignore him. Would have been so cool. :<

uNkind taught cooller ztn to be honest!

<3

the only reason t4 was ever interesting was z4. pixel rail zzzfest otherwise.

euros never figured out how to play t4 aggressively :/

Yeah they should definitely bring back pro-T4

and ZeRo4...

I've never played that map :P

Yeah indeed, i want CZM-Zero4 on pro-T4!!

Q3/Demos/Qcon2k4/WbFinal/Czm-ZeRo4-pro-q3tourney4 (ZeRo4).dm68

I know, but i want new zero4-czm matches :)

i never thought i would get plussed for saying this.


oh, wait. i did =)

not surprising from you.
remember demos from your pov on those map (ztn + t4), playing highly defensive, mostly with rail.
i guess these maps suit better your gameplay...

He only plays poker and (the very occasional) game of Q3 now anyway? why would he care if the maps benefited his play style?

His taste in maps probably still is a reflect of his playstyle though. :P

Well of course but he wouldn't benefit from it :)

Besides he's mostly right about the new maps that get picked up. Just look at Q4 and it's even more apparent....

Yea sure. :)
I'm not saying he's wrong, just saying your statement is, imo, irrelevant. :P
Then again I too would love to see more maps where players like czm or cooller, who not only have sick aim but also incredible map control abilities, destroy their lesser, more aim-based, opponents.

Yes!

wanted to watch z4muz vs cooller at the schedueled time, apparently they started 1 hour earlier.... wanted to see the grand final, apparently it's played sometime TODAY.........................

You got owned.. =(

Yea, I felt sorry for you guys not aware of that last time notice cause of Jibo's flight.
The change of schedule was advertised quite late, there's probably been a hell of a lot of spectators missing the grand final because of that. :<

jibo played smart on ztn
czm played smart on dm6
aero was kinda even which was very surprising

good games though

i think jibo was just very +back/+hide on hub as he is on every map, making the score more close which in turn makes some people think the game was actually close. czm had control of the map almost the entire time imo.

he spawned with total control, like on the other two maps...

jibo had plenty of opportunities - on all 3 maps. his ability to attack in times of need wasn't strong enough.

spoken like a true pro..

Comparing WB hub with GF hub the latter one had better performance by jibo. Even though czm was in control it wasn't an easy game for him.

i don't believe it was any harder or easier for him. czm played a much more conservative game as he was in a comfortable position already - no reason taking extra risks. yet and still, near complete control the entire time.

the event is set wrong. (Event: WSVG'06)

fuck of hub detroy this fucking aim spwan q4 map please

and bring back t4 and t2

curse you all b2r ! :D

ZOMGWTFIMBAPATCHPLZ

w00tw00tbytheb2railersforthecpma-awaylers!

It's so sickening that it's actually "good" players out there that have NEVER played t2, pro-t4 hub3t1 and so on, makes me fucking crazy.

The demons go fucking crazy in my brain, here we have the perfect scenario; New guys can just jump in, "PEW PEW NO BRAINS" and play the new shitty maps on just pure aim, because, you see, on the new maps in this lovley game called quake3, Iam sad to say, that aim can go all the way.

Remember before when you had to really overthink your opponent and be really smart and all, nowadays, pff, the fucking maps don't even allow you to atleast try to be smart, they are constructed just for aim, hey, go play ra3 if you just wanna aim, hell, kick a hole in something, I don't care a lick, just fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiix this, makes me sick.

The perfect tournaments is gone forever, you know, TDM / CTF players can nowadays, compete with the best duel-players on regular bases, thx for the nobrain-maps.

Coupple of years ago, hell, ztn3DM1, hub3tourney1, q3tourney2, hell, there we have'em man, this is what I am talking about.

Put yourself in the position; Been playing 1on1 for ALOT of years, and guys who have been playing for 2 seconds can just jump in, /callvote somefuckedupshit1337 and outaim you.
And after that, if they wanna ofc, you play a good, old map constructed for 1on1, they won't even go after items, not even trying to hold the mapcontrol and than you might ask yourself, why? - Because of the simple fact, THEY CAN'T, they have no fucking clue how to think, act or anything, if they are not able to use "no brain just aim"-strats they can't frag.

Hey, I'm not saying that I would be the best player out there if we played the maps that are in my opinion the good ones, I'm not as talanted as the real pros, not even close.
But what makes me go fucking nuts is that the tournaments that are held nowadays, are contructed so the nobrainers have an edge over us, true 1on1-grinders, who have been focusing on 1on1 during the whole quake-era, ( even since Doom II ).

Okey, my post might be a little brutal but this is actually how I see this shit and I know that I'm not alone either.

are you saying that n00bs can come along with kick ass aim and beat someone thats been playing map control for years?

If so then I don't agree with this - map control should dominate over aim on most maps - ok hub3 being the main exception but if your gonna put 2 players essentially in a box and let them fight it out then it removes alot of what quake is about.

drop hub3, or at least take out the RG and make it more of a fighting map

besides I don't get this "brain over aim" thing - its like saying that people that can only aim are somehow "lame", yet surely the same applies to people that can only time items - I mean adding 30 then adding or subtracting 5 is a skill we all learnt before we were 6 years old whereas aim skill is something that takes years to develop.

so, in your opinion, czm is just a no brain aim only player, right ?

he beat cooller, he must be

F1rMA beat cooller as well :x

wait... on lan?

go put tablets in water u boring bastard

The "all aim and no brain" is just a phrase that people read too much into.

CZM has excellent aiming skillz so he not surprisingly makes the most of this by being aggressive. If your aggressive then you are going to be focused on fragging the opponent rather than timing items. It's not that he can't do it, its just that he chooses that style of play because it complements his aiming ability.

COOLLER on the other hand doesn't have the same level of aiming skill and he too knows this so he concentrates more on locking down maps.

2 different ways of playing the game but both players have "aim and brain" skillz

Thats why the games between CZM and COOLLER are so intense and interesting because its two opposing styles up against each other.

Personally I would rather watch COOLLER because he is more interesting but if you think CZM can't lock down maps then look at his WB game against Jibo on pro-nodm9

QLR's shaft > *

imho czm has one of the most amazing timing abilitys i have ever seen. and cooller is also a aimwhore ;)

yea, czm has photographic memory so his abillity to time multiple items at once is just sublime.

Oh no, you guys got me totally wrong.
First of all I'm a bigfuck-jackass posting this in here, should be somewhere else.

Czm is in my eyes the best quaker out there, I was talking just in general.
You know, czm have been dominating since quake3 started out actually, wasn't talking about him at all.

I was talking about TDM / CTF players in general comming in to tourmanents, and does well coz the maps gives them a huge fucking edge.

As I sad earlier, total jackass posting it here... excuse me for that. :>

i don't think it's so extreme, think pro-t4, all rail and aim map (i love it), nodm9 i think it's more balanced, more control map. all maps you have to control items to win, with aim only, you can't win to cooller for example. exception for me is hub, it's very small map and agresive and aimming player can't beat a defensive and control player.

I think quake it's today more aimming because tecnology like mouses, pcs, mousepads are more precise, this has unbalanced aim/control, so aim it's very important today.i think shaft today , with all tecnical improvements, it's overpowered weapon. when quake starts rocket was the weapon with high pings and laggy conections., later rail, today shaft is the decisive weapon, so converts quake poor in tactics, it's only take control and shaft. so it's hard to comeback for a control player to an aim player that has started with map control and then goes to shaft.

i think shaft will do a litlle less damage to balance quiake to a control players, and to see more brain there!

sorry for my english! (years without writting it....)

pro-tourney4 is a positioning and rockets map too though. e.g. fox vs daler or zero4 vs fox!

or czm vs socrates iirc, probably some ESWC game, czm controlled the map from the upper part with RL only, cycling the YAs and MH, never letting him get upper, it was beautiful.

You time items in TDM and CTF and you also have to have good awareness of the opponent and where they are in order to succeed. Those are all attributes required for good duel skill, so why would CTF/tdm players be any less capable? Hell they have a total of 8/10 players in the map so they have even more things to process.

Trying to say that tdm and CTF players should somehow not be good at duel is dumb. Good players are good players and they can adapt to different styles of play and different mods. Viju played well, he is a good allround quake 3 player with championships in CTF and having also won americup 2v2 TDM. CZM was an allstar TDM player, won CTF at QLAN2 with c9 and is(arguably) the best q3 duel player. Toxic was a great TDM player with ic and went on to dominate q4 duel...Notice a pattern?

There is no reason why a duel player should win simply because he has played a map 20 times more than some other player. If a player is outaimed so badly that he loses then blame the dueler for not being smart enough since obviously he blew it and the "all aim, no brain" player had no need to use a brain to win. Maybe if he was losing he'd do something other than rape his opponent with the lg everytime he saw him.

If you cannot frag then you won't win. Good aim is required for a good fragging ability..no reason why super aimers should do poorly.

lol fucking tomatokid, I AM SAYING THAT THEY ARE GOOD, I am not saying that they are NOT good.

Sigh, I am saying that the maps are constructed so TDM/CTF can just jump in and aim, we whom have been focusing on 1on1 since fucking Doom II have no longer the edge we used to have.

Thats like geting your money in good and having your opponents draw against 2 fucking outs and he hits, EVERY TIME.

Thank you very much for deleting maps construced for duel.
Blow me

Maybe you just need to learn to aim. If you cannot frag in quake why expect to win? Obviously if people with better aim trounce you then you are not thinking well enough or they are actually thinking so don't use the maps as a cop out.

Hub is not at all a nothink map, with the teleporters it opens up plenty of vantage points you need to be aware of. You have red, ya, mega and a 25 armor, and all in places which they are open and vulnerable to fire. You must plan how you get the items without taking significant damage..you cannot simply nothink your way onto the red platform and grab it vs a good opponent.

TDM/CTF players also do not just hop into a duel map and rely on aim. As I mentioned earlier, they are smart players fully capable for grasping all required concepts to play duel at a decent level. Just because they have aim better than yours does not make them "all aim no brain"

Come up with an example of how the maps are all aim and no brain before posting again "tomotokid".

Sorry dude, but you can't change my mind.
If you would have been playing since Doom II you would understand this scenario, I am not saying you'r stupid or anything, just that it's prolly kinda hard to put yourself in the situation.

How do I know that you haven't been playing since Doom II?
Well, kinda obvius, you would have been on my side than and not against me in this subject.

Btw, I am known as the bigest "rail only" dude on the servers, almost after every game I finish I hear it, but to tell you the truth, that's not based on "aim", thing is, I know every move, I know exactly where to hold my crosshair, I know how to step away from fights, I know how to dogde everything that's negative for you and I know how to attack in the best possible way, if you do that, the "aim"-question is kinda out of the picture.
Your opponent is like a brick than, just killable, easier than ever.

And dude, remember, I've never said that CTF/TDM players are bad ( in ANY way ), thing is, in my opinion the maps nowadays are contstruced in a way so we don't have the edge we used to have.

But than I ask myself; "Is that a bad thing?" and I don't know, for me it is, just coz of the simple fact that I think so, it's really a personal question.

Hope you don't get me wrong buddy.

Why should the shallow skill of map knowledge be an edge? Any nimwit can learn how to play a map even if it is just by getting owned by good players over and over on it...just copy the moves!

Combat skills, thinking, item timing, opponent knowledge are real skills in quake that take real time and real effort to develop..and some people have them more than others. These are the skills that should be rewarded so a map like hub is fine.

When it comes down to it, who do you want to win: the guy who has played a map 1000 times or the guy who is a good quake player. I'd choose the latter but you seem to think differently.

I think F1rMA is having some trouble putting his thoughts across in English to be honest. What he means when he says "TDM" (this is something I used in irc to describe the current situation) is that a lot of new school guys are starting to play duel and their aim carries them extremely far because maps like hub3aeroq3 and pro-q3dm6 require high Aim + Timing (Yeah sorry to break it to people but timing isn't brain for fucks sake) but little in other dueling skills.

It's frustrating for people who enjoy the other skills because it's so utterly boring, "grab armour 1 -> rail/shaft -> grab mega health -> rail/shaft -> grab armour 2 -> repeat", there is very minimal thinking or prediction beyound this point (especially as it's so easy to know where your opponent is on these maps/where they will attack from) and there is really very little in the way of surprising the opponent, the best you can do on pro-q3dm6 is never surprising and the battle will usually come down to whether the down player had good enough aim with RL/LG/RG (Mostly the later two) to combat the opponents health advantage. You can't steal control from under your opponents nose without having that big battle where if your aim isn't good enough will just leave you weak but with an extra point to your name. The same is true for hub3aeroq3 for the most part albeit slightly different.

Compare this to ztn3tourney1where you can't tell where the opponent is at all times simply by seeing/hearing him, you have to use deduction of various variables (Which do come into play on hub3aeroq3 but far less) in order to predict where your opponent is/what he is trying to do/how best to tackle the situation. You can steal map control by delaying passage of the quickest routes using grenades/rockets, you can geniunely surprise the opponent at any point in the map and with devasting consequences for the fast/accuracy/timing of the attack.

Nobody is saying that czm is a dumb/all aim player here as he clearly isn't, but does nobody find it surprising that it wasn't untill the map list was pro-q3dm6, pro-q3tourney4 (He's a really smart player here though to be honest second only to ZeRo4), ztn3tourney1, cpm1a that he managed to go all the way in a big tournament. The next big tournaments saw cpm1a out and hub3aeroq3 in (His favourite map ever and one which suits his good timing/great all round aim, same goes for fox here suits his style amazingly).

His best game ever on ztn3tourney1 for example was ESWC 2004 against z4muz where the main reason he won is z4muz's lack of killer instinct and need to rigidly time the armours and follow patterns.

There is a difference between not having to think and not being able to think. TDM/CTF players have the aim that can allow them to beat opponents with more hp/armor so they don't have much need to do anything but grab the red and rush the enemy. If they realize that their aim isn't good enough to do this then they either lose horribly or actually start playing duel.

Obviously not all TDM/CTF players will do the latter which is why you will rarely see them win an event, or even place top 3/5. The ones that do think still do not have the experience to out-think the top duelers so they lose...map/duel experience prevails. None of the top CPL placers weren't well known duelers so I don't see how the maps are a big issue.

Don't think you still understand what we're trying to say anyway it doesn't matter as there is zero chance that any half decent maps will be used next year to be honest, it'll all be hub3aeroq3 style maps and we'll just have a slightly better version of Q4 with GTV.....

I understand what you are saying, I just don't see how it is a bad thing. Playing something 20x more than someone else should not give you some unbeatable advantage.

Quake also evolves, as players get better aim becomes more of a factor, that is just the way it is. Plus on the spectator side of things 25-16 is > 7-3.

Paragraph one shows you still don't get it. We aren't talking about "I've played this map 999,999,999 times I should win vs guy who has only played it 888,888,888 times", that is one small part of it obviously (Map knowledge/experience).

Paragraph two is just wrong. Aim has only become more of a factor on maps such as pro-q3dm6 and hub3aeroq3, coincidence? And that spectator side is total bullshit as it's A) totally subjective and B) a 4 point close game (7-3) is probably going to have been far more exciting than the 25-16 game.

Low Score != Boring
High Score != Exciting

Close Game = Exciting
Blowout Game = Boring

Like "iiiiiiiiii" said, there's really no point talking about this anymore since you obvuisly don't want to understand what we are trying to say.

I just wanna leave some last words, a little overview from what I've said in this subject.

- I think these new maps gives an edge to new players / TDM/CTF players and that makes it almost to easy for them to catch up with us duelers, it's actually very wrong because that takes away the simple fact that WE, have been focusing on duel for several years and of course, we don't get "paid".

- I think that the older maps was MUCH better for competition.

- I've never said TDM/CTF players are bad duelers.

So, enough said.
Now I will not write anything more here since it's obviusly pretty pointless.

so there should only be old maps so the old players can keep winning without an extra effort ?

"timing isn't brain for fucks sake" you are right!
I was not thinking about this
very nice and interesting stuff you said here
plus

f1rma goes nuts

heji neji o/

howdy ho torezlan o/ ;D

lets do a lil topic :

GG CZM !!

you offtopic naaaaabz :P

to all the people putting map control vs aim : Quake 3 is Carmacks own little FFA noobfest game, what do u expect, the game is balanced with the fact that ur not expected to live more than 25 seconds at a time and that if you happen to pick up some armours, its cos they were in your way ...

<3<3<3<3 i like this one :D

:D but there are quite a few maps where you literally can't just go about out aiming people. There are maps where you have to know exactly when to attack/rush attack ( Look at nodm9 vs dm13 for example). Most new maps these days have rail sights across the whole map, have simple armour load outs and "routes" and don'tpunish a player for a bad attack (nodm9 vs dm13 again).

regardless of map design, Q3 simply wasnt made for competitive play

Yeah, but despite what people may think no game is...

wow we all fell for it for SEVEN years, WE MUST TELL THE CPL

it wasnt, remember what id software said when competitive players complained of the hacks and stuff used in competition...
"play with ur friends"

so iD made the best DM game by accident.
that's a pretty nice accidental game.

if u think a game designed around FFA is the best for competitive play, then good for you.

the sad thing is quake 3 ffa is just totally horrible hehe

FFA = fun+random.
1v1 + 1v1 maps = good.

100 dmg rail = bad

just shut up already <3

what you fail to see is that baseq3 on it's own is pretty dire, mods like OSP and CPMA made it into a great competitive game.

That's actually good argument to support something I don't agree with. ID's response to cheats was very poor. Then again, maybe "play with your friends" meant "go LAN, win prizes". Go figure... I can't agree it wasn't designed for competitive play because that's all there is, there is no real single-player mode after all.

no it meant, host ur own private dm17 server

ahahhaha good one, By thelawenforcer - Reply to #112

czms shaft is godly - and the difference

Firma i played Doom 2 as well man, shit i think EVERYONE PLAYED it just because your an oldschooler dont make you good. Some people are just good players some can time / aim some just are lucky but you sound like a frustrated noobie why do you care that a map like Tourney2 is not in the map rotation its about as big as Doom2s first level if your having trouble surviving thats problary why you apparently hit more rail % on people because your +back or maybe your getting back at these "new school" players because you think they havn't learnt anything from not playing since Doom2.

I can't download files bigger than 2.99 GB
f**** wap!
haven't see the finals yet! :(

i think the only one who got it right is _rapid_
technical progress made quake aim dependent, especially shaft, then rail, also rocket is much much much more useable now
there are hardly any misses anymore with top skilled players

imo going back to baseq3 (or at least osp) netcode and running servers on sv_fps 20 would solve many problems you guys mention. decreasing shaft or rail damage would be wrong; it should be possible to do lots of damage, but it should be difficult; skill in weapon use should be rewarded - as skill in tactics, map and armor control should be

q3 is technically perfect, and thats why i love it. maybe we need to go one step back though to make it less technically perfect/easy, and more skill dependent again

ah yeah, and dont mention this as a plus point for q4. q4 is just fucked :P

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz!
how'z that Stuka plane sound when hitting the ground ?
JJJJiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiUuuuuuuuBumph!