very very nice game by z4mu... oh it was arrw's pov. nuff said. he is even better then his brother; very good control, hits all the important rails. really amazing, hopefully we'll see him in action soon.
but I haven't seen him play on other maps ofcourse...

major these demos plz!

majoring practice demos seems kinda pointless

why? it's a good game and everyone should see it. they both play seriously, unlike the hub game.

define "everyone should see it"

it's enjoyable for everyone who loves a good game of q3, simple as that. they clearly can read it's a friendly game, so what's the big deal?

its not a big deal, so why should it be major'd?

then the practise demos of czm, and the tdm games of CPL shouldn't be major either then?
it's not 'a big deal' as in 'it's a friendly game', yes that's true. But i've got the feeling you use other criteria to major a demo anyway, so we'd better leave it...

Yeah, rather good non-official demos than crappy ones that just happen to be from tournaments, and there has been atleast a few of the latter. We're not exactly being flooded with practise games looking to be majored either so agree, "no big deal".

Seems like a good demo, two players that I enjoy watching and ArrW used to have some sexy aim last I saw. Will watch when back from work, thanks for uploading manic.

Between the big shit it is good too see the progression of the smaller things, that ultimatly shape the style and approach that the big shit has.

su and be thankful for every good demo uploaded. ok thnx.

no

any demo where two good players play a proper game should be majored period.

wasnt proper game

they are fucking BORING BORING BORING. this game is no better than any if22/b100.death ztn match. fuckers

of course its a proper game, besides some people find demos like this entertaining so why not major them?

unlucky for you democracy wins :)

unlucky for you, you live in south africa

thats no insult, its beautiful here :) i could live anywhere in the world i want to btw, i chose to live here and i have no plans of moving anywhere else.

next attempt at an insult please?

south africa is beautiful :)

oh no reply from the wiseguy, what a pitty

(17:33:53) —————————————————————————————————
(17:33:53) [ø] Info: Query with (greywolve)/ opened on (Monday, January 8th 2007, 17:33:53).
(17:33:53) [ø] Info: Total queries: (149)/(~1.8 per day)
(17:33:53) [ø] Info: Queries today: (8)
(17:33:53) —————————————————————————————————

(17:33:53) (greywolve) hey faggot, im still waiting for your response on esr

yeah he totally wasnt raged :X

:)

lmao

majoring practice demos seems kinda pointless
define "everyone should see it"

You sound like a damn moron plus you obviously neither know the actual meaning of the word pointless nor how to make use of the word define in imperative mood.

Majored ;)

hits all the important rails

imo he hit all possible rails + few lucky ones :P

which is usually important for winning ;)

what's going on with you jarno? still playing q4 (or intending)?

nah, ive been studying etc
and followin some gtv/demos, but thats it

planning to play q3 again by any chance? =)

nahh, i don't feel so interested in gaming anymore

rofl @ that one :D

its just some demos to kill some time between the holidays ^^

I really enjoyed this one, arrw has movement as smooth as silk, and his item control was marvellous !

ArrW = all ztn

gg

they are both making this map even more boring.
at least for me. sometimes i do enjoy that kind of games, not today though

its a joke. its the other way around. arrw is z4m, get it? no? :/

No that was Arrw alright he has a similar style to his brother but there are differences.

what if u R ÄJ LAJAR?

ask the what if machine

well thats what i did :)

I also thought this demo was kinda boring... low fragcount, slow play by both, nothing spectacular...

arww has nice aim, he could play much more agressive when in control and rack up some more respawn frags, why is this game so defensive?

Because , unlike quake4, you can't push top players in this game.. and rush them stupidly.. you get punished bigtime. It's not defensive.. it's a playing style.. one which can't be used in q4.. which is why it makes such a shitgame..

hmmm ... fatality uses alot of defencive gamestyle in quake 4 ... and he placed 2'nd @ WSVG, so I think it is quite a strong gamestyle in q4, too.
The only difference is that you have to go for some spawnfrags... In other words play the offensive game, too.

there's no equivalent to ztn style games in q4.
also

It's not defensive.. it's a playing style

Had you played q3 as long as i have .. and then played q4.. you would've understand what Im trying to get at.

I don't get this...
First all q3 fanboys whined about q4 beeing so defensive, and now they're all whining about it beeing impossible to play defensive in q4.
Some consistency please..

Hey, not all of them!

Ok maybe not all, but most.

agree :)

z4muz is like the master of defense. ztn is all about control, if you don't pick your attacks smartly and over time then you will have trouble taking back control or getting kills. if you rush stupidly on ztn you get punished ruthlessly for it. +forward won't get you very far vs a decent player on ztn. watch czm vs z4muz at that eswc, 05? czm is strong with an aggressive style, yet he is smart enough to understand when his attacks will be of no use. this is a good example.

so to answer your question, it's so defensive because if you push a defensive player such as z4muz too far, that's the end of you.

LOL

So to summarise: +back FTW.

not really, it's a good combination

I would like to see a random pull of what Jibo did when he was on the run from a raging czm

brothers fighting ~~~~~~~~ !

really nice map controll by ArrW

the sexy movement makes it worth watching :p

ArrW is the smoothest quake 3 player for me, very nice movement style and really good aim, rail and shaft, not very good rocket but good at timming.

yeah I noticed that too, surely on hub, his rocket aim aint the best (that's relative ofcourse, I mean in comparison with his other weapons)

remeber is he playing against Z4muZ , he is hard to hit with rl and his rl is sick...

that RL of zamuz was indeed deadly. if he didnt hit so many rockets he would of got beat harder.

zamuz' rockets saved his ass of a pwnage.

And if ArrW would'nt hit his rails, his brother would've raped him...

langley -> wrong, in so many ways.

Looked like Z4muZ was just giving ArrW MH and RA. Probably beefing up ArrW so he would be more of a challenge and give Z4muZ better practise, or I could be wrong and ArrW is truly the better player.

Or maybe this is a practice match where arrW played really good and was in control quite long and thus beat Z4muZ who is usually the better player

I would have thought so to but Z4muZ never put up a fight for any item, and every single time ArrW and Z4muZ got into a close combat fight ArrW got smacked. The only thing I could see from this demo was that ArrW was a good railer and Z4muZ was far better in close combat. Which leaves me to question as to why Z4muZ never forced ArrW into close combat fights over the items. Im not saying ArrW is a bad player though, I just dont think he is as good as Z4muZ.

I saw two or threel close combats where Z4muZ lost...

Anyway, I think that Z4muZ knew that ArrW was stacked while he himself didn't have that much health/armor so he didn't want to confront him directly, one time he did it and ArrW chased him down (first or second frag)
I guess we could only check that by asking them or getting the demo from Z4muZ's pov.

In the end, I found the game was decided by ArrW's two rails somewhere around 13:20 if he hadn't hit those ZamuZ would have gotten an 5-5 or even a lead.

Well Z4muZ did lose the game :) But what I was getting at is that Z4muZ got about 7ra´s and 6mh and this is how the game turned out. Also in those fights where Z4muZ lost, ArrW did not look any bit superior, he most of the time barely got away, which is funny considering the amount of RA´s and MH´s each of them got.

it's not like there isn't anything else lying around on ztn so you don't _have_ to get mega and ra if it means a high risk. As for being superior, no hedidn't but he didn't look worse either and i think the both had almost the same damage given.

Well, Z4muZ being one of the best ztn players in the world I find it a bit odd that he only gets 6-7 ra/mh in a game and not once fights for them. When I watched this demo I found it ridiculous that ArrW got to run the map without no effort at all, excluding a few nicely placed rails. I do however find it plausable that he would practise for a tournament with the best players by playing his little brother totally out of control the entire game to handle the situation better when it arises in the tournament.

you are absolutely right. Z4muZ didn't try very hard. I'm not sure if it was because he just overestimates ArrW, or he just didn't want to bother trying for any number of reasons (more of a challenge, not revealing anything (lol), not feeling like it, whatever).

dude, Z4muZ even gave him full control from the start of the game (if I recall; I watched it last night and slept like a dog)), and Q3 starts are like chess beginnings. they are very well researched, and he wouldn't normally do anything like that.

Z4muZ is absolutely the superior DM fighter, as well, especially in close quarters; he just did not challenge for items for one reason or another. if it has anything to do with being 'scared' of ArrW, then he's retarded. he would have easily beaten ArrW 15-5 or so.

boring demo - virtually no action until the 7min mark and yeah nice map control but thats easy when there is nobody contesting items

dont download, youll be wasting your time

Funny how so many comments make it sound like every fucking cooller game except if that was the name of the player everyone would be sprayin' (c).

sorry but cooller's the only one who can do +back with style.

tru.dat

if22 u noob

go watch if22 demo's before you say boring.

u dont understand how nice he plays, if u would understand this u would enjoy the demo alot more.

at least zamuz taught his brother to play the right game

lol

this wasn't good map control, really.
Z4muZ seemed to overestimate ArrW; that's probably because they play a lot and respect one another.

Z4muZ gave up control more than a few times.

there is much more skill to be extracted from Q3.

Indee ArrW has really smooth movements. Reminds me StGermain :)

ahhh wcg2001 memories =)

God damn how i hate these russianstyle gayass +backy ztn demos :D
They are so boring to watch, all*rush ztn demos are far more entertaining to watch :P

Everyone is entitled to an opinion of their own :)

Point is running around like a clueless cs-player and only relying on aim is even more boring.

Yes cs-players are known for running around lots and having great aim :DDDDDDDD

rofl :P
my point exactly :D
i ALWAYS see CS players rushing around in VOD-s/streams and stuff like that, lol :P
These guys aint moving an inch for the entire game :P

Actually they do generally. Most tournaments use roundtimes of ~1.30 minutes, which gives a lot of running around.
And they actually have pretty nasty hitscan aim, so yeah (although against targets with a very different movement pattern than that of the quake games) :P

"Smaller aim", no doubt they're good but I mean it does look a fair bit more impressive than it is thanks to slower opponents moving(?) in simpler patterns (like you said) so they can have their 360 degree turns at 5 metres or something and look very precise and it would be sooo fun seeing them in CPMA... :) Sure there are LuGias (but not many :D) but that kind of proves the point as... Well, the demos I've seen have not exactly been the sexiest in other areas than shaft aiming so to say. Maybe I haven't seen the best ones, just took a random bunch at chtv.

As for the CS running, I'm no expert but it feels like they spawn -> "run" (not too blazing speeds honestly) until there is even a possibility that an enemy could hear them -> walk (and that is so. amazingly. slow.) and gladly "hang around" somewhere gathering and coordinating an attack or something and then WHAM action for ten of those 90 seconds \:D/ High quality action of course with spraying that gets headshots with the crosshair on enemy feet.

That was a rush though. Usually CS "aim" seems to be to stand somewhere camping and know where to have the crosshair because sooner or later some one will walk past that point and then it's more reflexes to click.

Nothing nobody doesn't know of course, I just felt like whining on a lunchbreak. I am the scoutmaster though.

The comment about patterns is more that counterstrike players move differently when dodging, since they have to stop to shoot. So the way you aim with an ak in cs is a bit different from how you aim with a shaft (closer to how you rail, ofcause :-)). I wouldnt say its "simpler", but its definately different :-)

I agree that its pretty darn boring to watch most of the time, i just wanted to remind everyone that counterstrike players do have great aim, although its not directly translateable to a great quake aim :-)

About the spraying thing, the burst of bullets generally move en the same pattern, so its not completely random. So there actually is some things to learn in this.

I think we pretty much agree anyway, except ofcause the last part. As I am the scoutmaster!

You cannot win without aim. You simply can't. And I don't understand why the majority of people here on ESR think it's bad that a game consists heavily on aim. I think the stragetical part of the game much more interesting, but we're talking about FPS games, aim SHOULD be a big deal here.

Uh, so did you actually read my post? Or did you just reply as soon as you saw "cs"??

RL aim should be a big deal, 100dmg hitscan aim shouldn't

Sujoy make it so that I can plus this comment several times.

Agreed

This guy deserves "+++++"!!!!!!

100dmg hitscan aim aka "railgun" happens to be the main weapon to take map control, along with shaft... Don't take me wrong, I much prefer rocket skill over raw aim, rail shots are somewhat boring next to a well-placed mid-air rocket in the face, but it's just a necessary weapon.

ofcourse a hitscanweapon à la railgun is needed, but does it really have to do 100dmg?

sure, put id down to like 50 dmg, so everyone can run away from you with a frag lead till the game is over. especially on ztn. the railgun whine, ffs, go play ut with shock rifle or smthn. noobs get owned with the rail, and then they think its easy and go whine about 100 dmg.

let all the rage out man :D

dude i'm perfectly calm =) its just that people need to learn that not everyone can rail. and that the rail isnt the most powerful weapon in q3.

I'm not just talking Q3, I'm just talking Quake in general, 80-90 would still do a lot of damage, but 100 atm is ridiculous with the state of connections+mice+... we're at at the moment

how about the state of skill and map control and people with 200/200 in most of the match? you dont hear them whine, because they r not noobs, and when they get railed, they fry the living shit out of the poor guy with their lg.

Yeah, only noobs whine about rail. Cause like... a weapon invented in 1997 when people were playing on 150 ping and 40Hz PS/2 ball mice is really fitting for today's standard of play.
When will people fucking realize that the railgun is such a god damn flawed rediculous kind of weapon...

Dude, it was designed for single player! they didn't even think about the MP effect to be honest!

totally agree. it's probably the weapon i use the most but it's still lame.

Hellz yeah :)

agreed, rail is way too over powered and arguements about rail being a comeback weapon.... well if its so great at being a comeback weapon, what are you going to do when the person in control can aim just as well or even better than you with the rail, you can't really do much then.

even really great aimers don't hit every single rail so you will still have a chance to hit him three times while he only hits on, simply a matter of odds.
With most other weapons the amount of damage each player does will be closer to each other so the one with more armor will left standing even more often.

you have the exact same odds as him of hitting 3 in a row, only he can actually take more rails, so unless he is an idiot he has the advantage. (or you are a much better railer).

i disagree about other weapons, you can comeback with good rocket and lg pretty easily if you wait for the right moment, rail should be used to do suprise shots, you can harass him more with rail if he doesn't have one.

also it doesn't help being overly defensive, sometimes you need to sacrifice a kill and do as much damage as possible to take control back when you respawn.

yes the odds to his 3 in a row are the same, but whats important is the variance.
Meaning, the odds to get a damage difference of 200 is more likely to get than with any other weapon, not to speak of even having the chance to get a difference of 300. Or can you pictures a close fight with rockets where one guy takes 300 damage and the other one none? Well, at least if we are talking about people from about the same skill level.

well if you suprised the guy you could easily catch him off guard with a wrong weapon out and really punish him with rockets, rockets also have the advantage of being able to bounce the guy.

catching the guy with lg by suprise is also deadly if he doesn't have an lg out and you have good lg.

rail i guess it is possible to come back with, but like i said if the guy can rail just as well i don't see what you can really do.

of course if your opponent is dumb enough to run through a closed corridor with rail out that can more or less easily be done.
But I'm really not talking about lucky ambushes or anything like that, cause if you are really good at predicting where the other player is moving then you get those "free" rail shots as well...

I'm talking abuot a more idealized scenario, where both know where the other plyaer is and are more or less on the same height, and for an easier calculationboh have the same weapon out. And then if you assume both players have an accuracy of about 50%.
The chances that the player in control hits no rail while the other one hits 2 consecutive rails is 1/16th which would usually result in a good chance of breaking his control. An the chance to get at least a damage difference of 100 is 1/4th which would at least help
On the other hand if the controlling player hit more rails or the same amount its "just" another frag.
On the other hand if both have the lg, you have way more chances to do some damage until either player does 200 damage which effectlvely makes it impossible that on player scores 200 damage while the other one doesn't hit him at all. Same goes with rockets where you pretty much always get some splash damage on your opponent even if he does manage to bounce you up.

what the fuck does that mean? mice, pads and ping are the only thing that improved? what about players movement and dodge? what about strategy? if you let someone dominate you with the rail, its your fault. not the rails.

Very correct statement. Syncerror , if u see this , u better listen.

and then there were GOOD MAPS.

It would have to be tested to see what kind of impact that would have on the gameplay. The railgun is the main comeback weapon because it's a long-rang hitscan weapon that does a lot of damage. If it didn't do that much damage, some maps would be impossible to take control. dm6 is pretty much like that, with 100dmg railgun, less damage would pretty much seal the deal.

It's nearly impossible to guess how this would affect gameplay on current matches... It'd be interesting to test.

For a start pro-q3dm6 is quite heavily flawed in the first place, and secondly without rail they would A) Be able to get near the in control guy in the first place B) would need to play smart and use good prediction/RL skills

A weaker rail and A) Means they aren't constantly having to run away for health as much B) Same as above

dm6 was just an example, but since you brought it up:

How can getting near the person in control could possibly be a good thing? He has more health and more armor than you, chances are you're pretty much going to give him another frag, at least. Well-placed railshots gives a considerable amount of damage with minimal exposure, which is exactly what the dominated player needs to turn the game. I'm not gonna discuss the flaws of dm6 here, but the railgun here is not the dominated player's enemy, but their friend.

Getting near the enemy with a better position but less H/A can mean an advantage, the rail allows the player to simply hit one shot (The simplest in the game too) and that attack has largely been killed off.

Maybe you enjoy seeing players pop rails around corners untill they hit 2/3 in a row before the opponent picks up those key items allowing them to start a "fair" fight (They then still need to get close without being hit by a rail themselves). I on the other hand do not because it offers very little variety in play style and pretty much means that railing is the most important skills in the game as if you can't rail you're screwed.

It should be about all of the other skills. Without rail/strong rail you need to rely on strong weapon skills (All of them), control, movement, dodging and positioning much more than with rail/strong rail.

In the end for me the railgun kills off a considerable amount of creativity and speed in the game.

To say what you're saying about the gameplay, you gotta take average gameplay into consideration, not high-level. If you're doing so, I can agree with you. Otherwise, it's just not possible to consider any high-level player will get himself in a worst position if he's in control, or lose a battle (without making something stupid) with much more health and armor against his opponent. You don't even have to be that good, just a good average dueler has:

1 - perfect map knowledge
2 - reasonably good aim
3 - decent movementation
4 - can time items, even if not that good

You do realise that Shaft/Rockets/Plasma/Shotgun/Grenades/MG all do damage don't you?

By your logic dm13 or say phrantic in Q4 would be decided by whoever gets "control" and the first frag/s. It doesn't work like that though and most of the time a player always has the oppurtunity to fight for a foothold in the map without dieing and then mount a more even attack. No player is perfect and makes zero mistakes, no player can be in all the best positions on a map at once and still maintain map control.

In most of the matches I see it's the railgun that prevents the down player from getting into a good position or having decent health/armour going into a fight as all it takes is one pixel round a corner.

When a player makes a mistage this whole discussion and logic we just wen through is pointless as anything can happen, he could lose control without taking a single hit simply by bad timing, or he could put himself in such a bad position that it'd be better to give up items than to put up a fight...

dm13 an phrantic were designed with no railgun, these are very tight maps where the rocket is a clear winner here, and shaft in the more wide open area in dm13. And if u ask me, phrantic is a pretty stupid map, outside cpma.

no player can be in all the best positions on a map at once and still maintain map control.

Please reply to this part as it was clearly the most important aspect of what I was saying. I brought up players making mistakes as you made it seem like without the railgun a player could stand zero chance against the "dominant" player, which is absolute bullshit.

The railgun being "the comeback" weapon is just stupid. There are countless ways to turn a game around when the railgun is taken out of the equation, the problem is when it is there the player who is "dominant" can cut those ways down to just a few.

DM13 and Phrantic were designed for no-rail I guess you're right, but I fail to see the point here? are you suggesting that rail is good because of a few shit maps designed so that the best way to comeback into a match is to rail-rail-rail-rail the enemy to death?

The importance of the railgun is obviously dependant on the map design, so removing the railgun from the game would have different effects on maps, and I took dm6 just as an example, that was my point...

About "no player can be in all the best positions on a map at once and still maintain map control.", well, no player can hit all the railshots either, so that means if a player misses a rail, the opponent has 1 second to do whatever he wants because of the reload time, doesn't he? That's I'm saying you can't base your gameplay theories on a possible flaw, because diffrent players are better in different areas of their game.

please name one successful player who really only uses rail in these days.
Who doesn't know how to do b2r and rocketjumps, who doesn't time and doesn't hit any rockets.

I never said that?

hmm, ok then I misread i guess

There is only one way to test this.

If memory serves me correctly there are commands you can put into your server config for either OSP or CPMA that change the rail damage.
Start a server and give it a try, see how it affects gameplay.
Thats the only way you can really see how nerfing the rail damage wise will affect the game.

tbh, shaft is the bigger problem here
you shouldnt be able to avoid using any rl skill by just shafting your way out of every close fight, except the tightest corners on the tightest maps (hi toxic)
and tbh, connections and mice arent the problem. sv_fps 30 and cpma netcode is

But what if everyone playing q3 was on a lan that would never end?

Would the shaft still need to become nerfed? :)

i do have humour, but having a post that is

- clueless
- attempt at humour but failed
- broken english

as reply to my dead serious post, i cannot help to call you, mister langley, an idiot

okay i take that back, too much rage, but damn langley, what were you thinking? :)

You lost me..

yes, you never had a chance. better not reply to me anymore

I never had a chance in what exactly? checkers??

living up to your name xD

Like in worms! And grenades FTW!

cs aim is like pokeraim.

rofl

Don't you guys know that ArrW and z4muz are brothers?

No, it really hasn't been mentioned in any of the comments here.


At least of the five i read... ;)

Well thats the case anyway.

Comment #37 @ 19:19 CET, 3 January 2007
(iMsg, Reply)
By United Kingdom JayJay Binks +++'
at least zamuz taught his brother to play the right game
14% [+]

Comment #1 @ 12:00 CET, 3 January 2007
(iMsg, Reply)
By Belgium .:CyraX:. +
very very nice game by z4mu... oh it was arrw's pov. nuff said. he is even better then his brother; very good control, hits all the important rails. really amazing, hopefully we'll see him in action soon.
but I haven't seen him play on other maps ofcourse...

major these demos plz!
Edited by .:CyraX:. at 12:01 CET, 3 January 2007
[+]

Comment #18 @ 16:41 CET, 3 January 2007
(iMsg, Reply)
By Poland mefaipe_ ++++
brothers fighting ~~~~~~~~ !
[+]

but still everyone here thought ArrW was Z4muZ' lovechild ;)

no wai!!

bs. it's just z4muz playing on 2 computers.

Eh how the fuck would that be possi... ah funny funny :D

+ :)

FGG

\m/

http://www.cyberfight.ru/site/demos/20663/

nice demos by av3k...