( here`s the follow up )

Because I too was once under the impression that the halo 3 is drab, dry and filled with pre-pubsecent idiots who cannot create stuff or make it interesting...

but check this out ::

every week on www.mlgpro.com you can see a top 10 highlight from high caliber matches, showing the 10 best kills or combos recorded.

( by the way , providing your xbox has a hard drive on it, all your games are automatically recorded and can be viewed from any point of view while replayed. This makes movie creation easier, opponent evaluation easier and etc etc )

More to that, on bungie.net, your entire stats are being recorded for every game, down to where you got killed and where you did your kills. You can also see your team`s heatmap in maps, stating where you guys spend the most time, thus also showing where you need to improve your map coverage as a team...

man the list goes on for so long.

Im here reading at people having a hard time upping their demos etc. On xbl, you simply save the game from your automatical demo record *( last 25 games played are auto )* and you can put any of your saved movies in your file sharing. Basically the only thing needed to broadcast a movie/frag/creation is to share your file.

I also was under the impression the game is very noob friendly, but that hardly is the case. Just ponder the fact that a thumb is a lot harder to get into good aiming shape than your hand is, combined with the fact that high level players do actually aim pretty much as fast as we do with mice....the game balance with health and armor also makes it quite hard to compensate lack of wits with pure aim, thus making the teamwork experience mandatory. To me those things were seen as "obstacles", my vision changed when I started playing the game rather than criticizing it, closing my mind to only what I knew...Quake.

anyways, here are the goods you asked for. I am glad to share, although I dont think you can understand the depth behind the gameplay and the possibilites merely by watching a movie.

- Second installement on the mlg top 10, sponsored by ESPN
( this link proves the serious commitment to a mainstream audience as well as the possible skill level to achieve, most of these are done vs high quality players, keep that in mind )

http://www.mlgpro.com/?q=node/202187

- Video tutorial of a famous player showing the ropes to newcomers ( this video proves the commitement from players willing to bring new blood to the game rather than pros being so elite they live on another planet ... )

http://www.mlgpro.com/?q=node/133927

And lastly, i strongly encourage to visit the infant ladder league ( comparable to cal/cpl ) and realize the size of things at hand compared to what we had on pc .

www.gamebattles.com

Now consider the fact that Quakelive is a strong effort, the main problem will always be this community`s elitism. There is no chance in hell more than 20 000 active players will be on the ranked ladder in quake live. Thats my personal opinion so far on the topic.

If you look around you can also find pro team demos from recent competitions ( one was in the UK and posted on ESR, cant recall ) You will see at what speed and accuracy the game is played at high levels.

All that being said, the last few months helped correct my mind. I will never judge console pro gaming as inferior. Just vastly different and definately there to show us a few things.

i enjoyed the top 10 link.. quad kill with 1 sniper was cool and number 7 the 540 assassin kill was sick

are you a shill?

tl;dr

Here`s the shortened version.

There is a world outside of Quake that deserves being looked at, if at the very least to make your quake experience more interesting in the future.

Thanks.

It's called Starcraft.

I played rtcw for years.

are you talkin about street fighter?

think of this way: you can only carry two weapons and this is unfortunate yes, but every power weapon is essentially a quad damage in and of itself. guardian has 1 snipe, construct has 1 snipe and one rocket, pit/narrows (the biggest maps in the pool) have 2 snipes and 1 rocket.

the amount of teamwork required to win MLG TS is comparable to only QW. due to the nature of the energy shields, teamshooting and cleaning up after fragged teammates is critical. unlike q3 cessland it is very hard for a single player to outclass everyone and carry the team on his own, you have to roll as a unit, watch each others backs, and protect wounded teammates while they recharge, or you go down in flames. map control is paramount, keeping weapons and items on lock is just as important as it is in qwtdm.

while i feel the less abundance of armor/overshield hurts the game somewhat, honestly i don't miss health packs at all. the skill behind staying on cover, knowing what positions are safe to get your shields up while avoiding a flank, far, far outweighs the skill involved in timing health packs that are always in the same spot. realizing that it's nearly impossible to win in a 4v1 situation, that you can't charge in guns blazing by yourself, was the second biggest hurdle for me so far, the biggest being the pos thumbsticks

Judging by your posts, you sir are one refreshing sight !

Seems like you are giving a fair chance at both worlds and that so to a somewhat high level.

In my opinion, Halo 3 is currently the best platform to grow in a competitive environnement. Sure its not my favorite game , at least not yet, but it definately is the one giving me the most elements considering what is to come and the direction pro gaming is taking.

It`s just a shame that most of the true Quake fans become bloated during their gaming carreer/experience to a point where they believe there is nothing else worth trying.

oh and yes, the sticks are pos. I expect to feel this way about them until I can secure 80% of my kills in the 4-5 shots range. For now it`s not even close to that :)

Dont forget about spawn control. Forcing the enemy to spawn in some specific areas helps to eliminate or massively reduce being flanked badly. This is really important when playing objective modes or even in a teamslayer (tdm) game to secure the area of a powerup or power weapon before it spawns.

spawn forcing in halo 1 was so beautiful

I'd play it more with keyboard and mouse perhaps, but it's just a waste of time with thumb sticks.

Quake gives me enough so that I can pick up a 360 controller and pretty much rape all of my irl friends after one round of learning the layout/item spawns, and that's all I need =o)

i'll keep this short.

however good they move/aim, its only good considering they "use thumbs". No, its not as fast as playing with mouse keyboard. That fact alone is good enough for me to not use my little free gaming time on console fps.

Teamplay, from what u say, and the feedback from the good players is commendable.

http://www.rakaka.se/?news_id=6029 <-- you are telling me this is a good game? The people are just running straight forward all the fucking time, for gods sake where is the strafing? They seem to not care about threats from above, just looking straight forward all the time with exceptions of when a ramp is coming up.
Not a real indepth analysis, I know. But let's face it. It's harder for you because it's on a console, with different control schemes and what not. I've played quite some Halo (obviously not on a high level) and it's a fucking shit fest.
Halo is a terrible game where you move through molasses (spelling?).

The point: you just missed it.

Halo isnt Quake on consoles and thats what the original post was all about... Its different in many ways and once you open up your mind to something new and different you actually find a good competitive game. If the game was as simple as you described it you would not have the same top 4 teams always dominating the tournaments. You would get random teams all the time.

You may hate the game and find its a shit fest and im not the one that will make you change your mind but your only proving that the original poster didnt make that post that for nothing.

I never say it's a simple game. Of course it's different. Of course it's competetive, because everyone has the same preferences.
Still, this doesn't make this a good game and the way to go. It is a hard game because it had a worse control scheme (than kb+mouse), worse in the sense: more difficult to aim. But this takes away from the other things you have to be good at in, let's say, quake. Where you have to be really good at moving around the map and stay clear of enemy fire. Halo is forgiving and just says: "Hey, it's much harder to aim on these xbox-controls so people won't have to worry as much about how they move in the game". This is just one example though.
With your thinking most of the games ever made would be good if they only had a stable community and so on.
I demand more.

From what you said, a good game is a game you like thus making your opinion flawed.

Halo is forgiving and just says: "Hey, it's much harder to aim on these xbox-controls so people won't have to worry as much about how they move in the game".

Yeah you dont have to be good at moving and that forces proper positionning and team shooting. Still your looking to have quake elements in a game that is completly different...

I also like quake (played it for like 4years) but when i play a different game i accept the fact that its.......... different.

I never really say these are my opinions. They are fucking fact.
Oh, I never knew proper positioning and team shooting (I suppose 'team shooting' is act like a team to take down the opponents?) wasn't a part of any the Quake-games (or any other shooter out there). Pardon me.
OF CORSE IT'S DIFFERENT! But different STILL doesn't make it a good game, see?

Halo doesn't add ANYTHING, it takes away elements so you have to put bigger emphasis (often not even that) on other stuff in the game. So now, you don't have to be good at several things to be successful. Just a few. This is how I see it though, you're free to try to change my opinion (and it's doable if you bring good arguments, I'm not thickheaded).

Whats your deffinition of a good game?

Sigh... just tell me where you are going with this? It's a rediculus question.

Cuz the way you argue, you seem to say that a game is good or bad based on if you like it or not. I want to clarify things up cuz if thats how you clasify a game than i would say that there is actually 320k+ ppl at this same moment that are stating that halo3 is a good game and 13k of them are playing the promod as we speak.

Oh my god, is that how you read my posts? I have to read my posts again...

Nope, I don't see it. Where do I argue that it is a good game based on if I like it or not?

Quoting myself here:

Cuz the way you argue

Sorry its my fault. I should be more direct so you can follow what im saying.
So now I make it official... arguing with you is useless... I call it quits. gg

Omfg, I know you didn't meant that I did bluntly say "BECAUSE I LIKE IT!". More that you read into it that way. What I meant to ask was, what in my way of arguing made you think this? It's you who are being the retard here, not me.

Moron...

Im open minded about what you say. I read and try to believe your argument, however when you say there are less facets you need to master in order to be good in halo, i would beg to differ.

Last I checked, in order to dominate quake 4, you didnt exactly need to master the whole game either. Rail being the balance killer it was until far into the patching scheme, it proves that although Halo feels overly balanced, the opposite is just as bad.

And when you say there are less elements to be considered in Halo, i honestly believe you suffer from the same syndrom we all did on this site at a certain point. We like to thnk and judge based on perception rather than actual field experience.

Mark my words, because they are neutral and dont suggest a biased opinion. Halo is just as deep, and just as hard to master as any Quake game. The reason is simple. In the end, it all comes down to the people who push the limits, and how far they are willing to push them. It's the same old debate as CS vs Quake in fact. We quakers believe we could easily rape 70% of the cs population on our first day, because the game is seemingly all that simpler than ours...but in reality, it doenst take too long to realize CS is a deep game as well.

Anyways I know this is a no win argument. The average ESR quake fan thinks that the 600 000 active CS players are wrong, the 600 000 active halo players are wrong, and that them , the odd 300 active/idling quakers are right.

I feel like we (who argue that Quake is the better game, and has more elements to master) have put out examples time and time again why it is so. While the opposing side (as you do now) just say "Hey, that's not true. We have to master just as much elements to be a part of the top", without giving us examples. I'm not talking about examples which are already in quake, I wanna hear about the elements that arn't there. Because otherwise I feel this argument of yours is worth nothing.
I hope I made that understandable. Might have sounded better in my head. heh

And since when did majority start mather on right and wrong? =P

Well we already stated the fact that the game being more balanced, it makes it rather impossible to be a rambo that saves the day. That means teamwork is now mandatory.

To be fair and stay unbiased, I admit the balance is too tight in Halo, and also cripples the game a bit. It would sometimes be fun to actually stand a chance in a 2v1 at higher levels of play.

The fact you cant compensate lack of technical and strategic skill with heavy mouse flicking does help trace a line between truly skilled teams vs all star aim players. Obviously having grade A aim is not a bad thing, but it shouldnt be the factor that makes you stand out in every fight in a game.

I however cannot bring many new facets that arent in quake, because I never stated that halo reinvented the FPS wheel. However it does come with ALL the wanted features Quake that lacks and that so , out of the box. The company behind the game also acknowledges pro gaming enough to include the mod in their matchmaking defaults....Thats one thing Quake still has to come up with..,. i mean sure you guys managed to convince SyncError to preach for you, but in the end, Quake still lacks a demography to make good use of it.

For the people who think halo movement is blah, I also agree its less intricate in the sense that pretty much any element of speed momentum gain is absent. However it does not mean the movement/jumping is as drab as you guys would like it to be. There are still quite a few technical jumps that allow to get an edge on others.

to be fair, it's rather hard to compare the 2 games directly, but usually, demography does speak for itself. People rarely go out of their way to play a bad game....Again not saying Quake is bad, but Imo the fact that more than a million people play Halo and CS definately proves those games arent bad. The fact nobody plays Quake anymore and nobody really ever cared about it besides us does raise a bit of questions....

more than anything, im trying to find out exactly what makes those games ultra popular compared to Quake. I strongly doubt it has to do with the fact that they are easier and self gratifying. ( i was however in that exact mind state when all i played was quake ) My guess is we were right from the get go, Quake games , although fun, are crippled and lack features and proper support. Until they can come up with a proper solution, this series and the actual gameplay it tries to represent ( tdm and 1v1 ) are bound to remain a niched market only followed by super elitists. And as mentionned above, even if they do fix all the bugs and add all the needed support, who is going to be there to play it. Who would want to be part of our elite crew of flaming know it all trolls ??? ( again, to be fair, H3 also has about 300 000 idiots playing lol )

first off i really do admire the way your calmly trying to prove your point, and i agree with u on the extra features/support that halo has.
but as far as the halo gameplay, its not just different, its different in a bad way:) or lets say not so good way^^

the f1 racing thing would be comparable if we used aim bots or smth, this way is just normal. its like lets play with our feet..."well hes moving/aiming is great considering hes using hes feet and its so much more difficult that way thus making it more skilled".

when u comment on teamplay and controlling spawns etc, thats a matter of taste like q3 vs et, etc.

but yes if the approach to quake like games stays the same, not making it fun for noobs it will die.
making it fun for noobs dose not have to mean noobyfing it down and loosing the learning curve...just making it fun for all, while leaving the possibility for growth.

it makes it rather impossible to be a rambo that saves the day

well, that line makes me really NOT want to try it.

I'm not saying that players who only rambo the whole game should be rewarded at all (as said before I did play rtcw, and playing ffa wasn't rewarded at all in that game)

However, there must be a way where someone can actually step up and save the day for me to really enjoy a game.
e.g. the reason I like chess is that you sometimes can make that one surprising move that completely devastates your opponent.

You obviously havent played the game or watch pro videos because many of them saved/saves the day with cluch plays. They just dont rambo their way up to victory.

and yet he seems to think that it's a good line to advertise the game...

Im not advertising at all here pal. I was only proving your clueless arguing was off the track.

he he he, not you!

And I was argumenting with a quote, which is widely seen as the best basis for an argument.

And i was arguing about your argument.


...see how far things can go? We are wayyyy of topic now.

"I strongly doubt it has to do with the fact that they are easier and self gratifying."
This is THE fact. These games are MUCH easier for a new player to pick up and have fun playing, they do not have nearly the same learning curve that quake/ut/similar games have. Now i am not saying at a competitive level that these games are lacking, because you have to master them just as much as any quake game, if not even more so because of the huge player base. However, it is MUCH MUCH easier for a newbie to pick these games up and have fun than it is with quake. There are so many more newbs in these games than in quake that its just easier to find someone on your level, especially with halo's matchmaking system, although it is pretty flawed. And even so, i believe it is EASIER for a newb to kill someone in halo/cs than it is in quake, thus making it more enjoyable. No first day player would ever pull a frag against a top quake player, however i believe that with a bit of luck that could possibly be true in cs or halo.

Im pretty sure the kids with a kill death ratio of 0.2 dont share that view. And theres about 200 000 of them :)

The game is popular because people like to play it. Not because its easy to dominate.

Obviously Halo benifits from a lot of outside factors that increases its player base, but we should realllllllly start questionning ourselves why Quake is failing so hard in that department.

I used to think its solely because its too hard for noobs...im not entirely sure anymore....

Definately possible to kill a pro early in a CS career due to the nature of certain weapons, probably a lot harder in Halo for the same reasons, and definately harder in Quake's case....but its all relative to the demographic value behind the games really. The more people play, the higher the boundaries are pushed, the better the gameplay gets.

I think complete newbies in Quake can be happy if they have a kill ratio over 0 in their first two weeks.

Hey come to think of it, maybe history will repeat itself after all.

Quake 1 was popular and gave life to a new way of playing on pc, same for Halo on hexbox.

Quake 2 proved you can further push the idea and managed to convert most of its player base, same can be said for halo 2.

Quake 3 was the best effort by the company behind the game, gave birth to a more defined competitive environnement for said game, pretty much where halo stands.

Now, if halo 4 ever exists and amounts to extreme fail compared to its 3 predecessors, all those arguments will be void null and bleh.

I never said halo was easy to dominate, but it is much easier for a noob to play than quake. as for the kids with .2 death ratio in halo, they would have a .0001 ratio in quake, which is why you would never see them there, .2 you at least kill enough to have fun. complete newbs in quake get ripped 70 to -5 way too often for them to even consider playing the game seriously.
There are quite a few reasons why quake isn't as popular, though i would consider the steep learning curve to be an important part of that, but surely not the only reason. Quakelive seems to be trying to solve these issues, but as many others have said i think it is a lot too late.
Maybe if quake 5 is a solid competitive game out of the box, and it is picked up by cgs or something, then we could perhaps see a revival of deathmatch, but i doubt that even. Deathmatch is definitely on a decline which it *probably* won't come out of. however, this will not bring me to switch my gaming hobby to playing slow ass fps with a joystick such as halo(though i do play it from time to time for something different, but nothing serious), especially considering i have less and less time to play. Games like tf2 are good enough for me, though i still prefer quake

"complete newbs in quake get ripped 70 to -5 way too often"
why do almost everybody on esr only think with duel in mind ?

that is the only semi-alive thing in quake? i just used that as an example, in tdm they will net -50, and in ctf they will have a 10% eff dmg ratio

yep but you were talking about having fun
I do believe being raped in duel isn't fun at all, hence the matchmking system in QL ; but you can have fun even if you're not good in a team game, cause whatever you'll participate to your team success, and it may be other noobs on the other team too anyway

btw actually I'm sure QL should focus on team mods cause they are way more accessible and funnier to a newbie

it's like robot dancing, with a gun (and a triggerbot)

he's running forward because he's trying to get the flag?

Don't be stupid.

Not sure if you deliberately try to troll or you are just that narrow minded lol...

you realize you just dimissed the best team in existence, saying they act and play like noobs ???

Judging by your "very limited analysis" you clearly prove you dont know how that game is played and what it involves.

You see, the fact they neglect threat from above and keep looking and moving forward comes in direct context with the mouse+kb combo vs joystick argument.

They neglect the above treat knowing they cant possibly start shooting back 2 seconds after without taking a risk and dying, and keep moving forward towards cover....basically, in halo you cant really win fights if you arent the one starting them. At least its not really recommended unless you want to be respawning a lot. To you that may sound like a bad design....I guess its a question of perception.

no magical 180 degree mouse flicking coupled with bad netcode giving you free rails in that game.

im ready to debate and argue, but if you just spit shit out of your mouth without any actual research its pointless.

Final boss are noobs yes, I suppose fatality was also dumb never to engage in fights in earlier quake 3 years and keep runnning power ups instead, teh noob.

they play halo.

ERGO, they act like noobs.

I respect those 20k mlg players, but playing a fps without a keyboard and mouse, is like arguing on the Internet. Even if you win, youre a complete tard. No offense intended.

I mean cmon, is like playing a racing game with a mouse, its plain stupid. Each genre has a best input control type, while youre not using it, youre just lowering the skill depth involved.

Without skill, a pro league is nonsense. You like it? fine play it nonstop, but dont compare it to THE true fps competitive platform, pc + keyboard + mouse.

Might be nonsence to you but there is 4 players with 250k$ contracts in that league and its not about to die. It also has ESPN affiliations.

So true, because having an opinion is a very dangerous, just do what people with money say.

So, please stop playing any type of video game, cause in real sports they have million dollar contracts!!!!

I want an explanation as to why its a reduction of skill to use a joystick. Because in my opinion and judging by experience so far, its the opposite.

Using a kb+mouse makes everything so fucking easy its almost stupid lol...

everyone can drag and drop files in windows. everyone can follow someone with a crosshair using a mouse. We actually became so acustomized to it that it hurts the gameplay AND skill involved. Where do you think all the "rail is overpowered" whine comes from....the damage ratio has been the same since the very beginning ( give or take 10 hp ).... but people now rail like its second nature.

I can guarantee that in 10 years , people still wont be able to rape 4v1 in halo, and thats a good thing. The player should be the reason why the skill level is high, not the tool.

I have no clue why that reply was directed at me.

but yeah you are correct, it is more difficult to hit anything.
Just like playing a racing game with a mouse is more difficult and playing tennis with a baseball bat requires more skill.

How I love these analogies!

Wrong reply indeed. It was meant for Gstructor at 16, my bad.

no worries, I got plusses :]

tennis with baseball bat

<::

playing with a mouse and keyboard allows for a higher level of skill, simple as that

As someone who's played in plenty of tournaments for Halo 1, playing the game since 2002, and played Halo 2 for several years, I agree with gStructor. Playing on a controller limits skill quite a bit.

The problem with playing on a console is that it limits your ability to aim and move quickly *and* limits your precision. This essentially removes skill from aiming/movement and pushes it into tactics. However, because Halo 2 and Halo 3 have heavy gimmicky-based gameplay mechanics (heavy auto-aim and reticle magnetism, lock-on rockets, 20 different types of grenades, mobile jump-pads, all different types of vehicles), what tactics remained from Halo 1 have since been subverted.

Tactics remain a big part of Halo's multiplayer, but because Halo 3 is pushing for gimmicky nonsense, I don't know where that leaves "smart" tactics and begins at unbalanced exploitation.

What the top end of Halo players comes down to is constantly playing. Like Tsquared, Walshy, Ogre Twins all admit to playing about 10 hours a day of Halo to keep frosty. Which is really, really sad, I think.

that can only be a good thing dude, that's how much the koreans practice starcraft. at least someone else is taking progaming seriously instead of spending all their time marketing mousepads and going to the gym

I can respect the dedication. But nothing else.

There's the F1 Ferrari and there's Fiat Punto Sport. A shitload more people drive the Fiat, also it is much harder to cut corners at high speed. Does that make it a better car?

Its all about the platform baby.... fiat or halo3 both blows hard but they both have the platform to build a race car...

it might just be companies supporting their games

Im ready to believe what you say when you tell me that kb+mouse is THE "true" fps competitive platform.

But you will need to back those fact ups with scientific proof. The fact most events in the past were played that way does not qualify...

Equipment changed a lot in all sports/hobbies over time. Some sports even has to "gimp" the equipement in order to preserve true skill rather than favorise the edge given by those tools "see formula 1 racing".

I honestly think we came to a point where mouse makes it too easy for players to dominate a game. It can almost be compared to playing duck hunt with gun 1 inch from the screen.

The argument had nothing to do with mouse+kb anyways...halo is designed from stratch with the joystick in mind. from health armor balance to the size and angles of the map. Had it been allowed to use mouse+kb in mlg, im pretty certain they wouldve adapted the series to such a control scheme.

Over the last 2 years, most people here complained about the following things ::

- lack of gtv
- lack of proper demo support
- lack of actual players
- lack of pro mod
- lack of maps
- lack of Id software commitment

and the very few of you who stuck with q3/q4 are losing most of your time on irc rather than playing anyways...

The point of this argument is not to bash on pc gaming, or the mouse+kb vs joystick...its about where gaming is heading. You guys can stick your head and the sand and keep believeing DM or Quake or ID will still be alive in 2 years, its pretty much the same gamble as registrating for a cpl event.

In the meantime i will be investing my own free time in learning how to use a "gimped" control scheme, while at least enjoying the 18 other things your platform and game misses.

Any of you believeing qlive will actually put the series back on track is daydreaming beyond sanity...comon guys...the matchmaking service will probably be a nice boon, but theres only so many way you can match 17 players against each other haha...

jamerioed

DM or Quake or ID will still be alive in 2 years

ahahaha, people have been saying that for years :)

The point is people want to play what they enjoy not where the masses are!
If I enjoy playing Chinese chess and baseball in Germany I will not suddenly change because someone argues me that more people play European chess and football.

And yes even though more people play European chess I still have valid reasons why I enjoy it more!
The possibility to earn money never was and never will be a part of that!!

(even though, getting lodging payes for ten days in shanghai sure was nice :P)

Well the original post wanst about "Hey guys you shoud learn to love this game because alot of ppl do." It was mostly about a quake player that used to spit on halo and saying it would be easy to get in this game to rape faces that finally gave it a chance and he was amazed to find a really good competitive game. Having the masses playing with you is a major plus also.

Special olympics is competitive. If you're a retard.

Exactly. Anything can be competitive. FFS even dart throwing is competitive... It all depends on what you like.

edit - not satisfied with my post, there was still room for misinterpretation and i don't have time to make it more elaborate. :(

Don't hate on Duck Hunt!

:(

I play games for fun, not because thats what everyone else plays. Quake brings me enjoyment, sometimes halo 3 does, sometimes tf2 does, i play whatever i want to play, and i could give a shit less about how many people are playing it. Most of the time it is quake, as it is a lot faster paced and more action filled than halo 3, which gets extremely boring to me after a couple games. That being said, i don't have as much time to play games now a days anyway, also suprising you play halo3 instead of cod4 considering some of your arguments, although i guess mlg is still gun-ho halo3

I also play a load of different games for leisure.

Competing becomes impossible in Quake however. The amount of players definately has an impact on that if anything.

As far as Cod4 goes, I play that a lot as well hehe, however it does not really fit with the reason why I start posting about this as much, given there is virtually no pro support for the cod series and they didnt bring anything new on the overall competition platform.

Cod4 is probably my favorite pubbing game. ( and yes you hater, i play that shit on xbox 360 as well muehahaha ).

I don't hate on console gamers, i just hate when they tell me i should be playing on console because it is better :P. Tho i do like to compete, i don't like it enough to force myself to play games such as halo3 or cod4 or CS for that matter. Competition of playing my friends in some quake, some sports games, guitar hero, etc is enough for me. although, i do kind of wish i lived in Europe so i could continue in league play for quake, but realistically i do see quake live bringing a small amount of competition back(tho not like the prime days of 97ish-2003ish), especially if ID said they would be running money tournaments with the ad revenue

Fuckin jamerio'd

got 2 words for you: mouse + keyboard

most games now a days have aspects to them that allow for a highly skilled competitive area, but this does not make them good games. I've played a ton of halo 3 because thats what a lot of kids my age (college) are playing, but the game is just slow and boring. give me a keyboard and mouse and skill in moving please

watched some of the vids, and tbh, it seemed to slow, the weapons were nearly all hitscan, the game does a significant amount of automatic tracking etc... not surprising that it gets significant numbers of players....

the autotracking got a huge nerf from halo 2 -> halo 3 on account of that there is 0 autoaim on headshots and the only way you'll ever actually kill someone off the spawn is with a headshot or a melee. it's one of those things that's hard to tell from videos alone, in h2 you could wave your crosshair in their general direction and get a headshot but in h3 it takes skill again

And you have to take the guys' shield prior to making an headshot and this takes about 3.75 perfect bursts to the body and then aim at the head to get a quick 4 shot kill. Thats one of the combat mecanism that halo has and even with the aim assist its hard to achieve in every combat.

Ok, firstly I want to clear some things up for myself: What do you consider a good platform for competetive gaming?

Cuz ur halo arguments seem almost funny to me. For egsample, I create a game. How to determinate if its competetive? From ur halo arguments i believe it looks something like this:
-2 Maps: Flat ground and one with a million of pillars (that don't matter
even a bit). Skillful, because they're even.
-No movement( I mean a CS\halo styled one) - equal and even.
-One weapon - Something like a Machinegun on quake. And 50 shots. Its skillful, because u can't be the "rambo", u have to do teamplay (aka running in one place and shooting everybody together) and count shots. T:he determination of the winner is clear when u start shooting (He has more health - he wins). Oh and lets not forget the imitation of a gamepad
-very poor netcode. So no one aims too good.

That's a perfect game, because everybody's even, right?

Maps : Guardian-Pit-Onslaught-Narrows-Construct-Blackout
( hardly 2 ) And some of them have 3 levels of height, jumppads...

Hardly falt grounded and definately not filled with random pillars....

Movement, although not taken into consideration as much as Quake, is present in Halo. It is just not working the same way. You need to know how to hide your head to prevent head shots, looking at ground when backing up, you need to know how to control crouch jumping to reach higher ledges etc etc...sure its not momentum based, but then again , only quake is like that and other games who tried to evolve that ( warsow ) you guys shit on anyways... dead argument to me.

Battle rifle - sniper rifle - mauler - rocket launcher - alien carabine.
And the Melee Bash

Again, many different way to fight, all guns are used differently and need to be understood and mastered.

Your definition on how the teamplay works, how the weapons work, the maps are laid out. All of these points you state prove me your halo experience is from websites and biased on your hate from anything that is not quake., because all you just stated falls down the oponion scale rather than fact. You diminish all those to make Quake look better, but in fact the elements are all there...

And for the record, the netcode is not only superb, the engine behind it is actually smart. Ever heard of auto host balancing in quake games....nah that what i thought. In quake if server is shit, it stays shit. In halo if the host becomes crippled, xbox live automatically recaculates who would be the best host out of all players and changes it mid game..

as far as balance goes, I agree the game suffers from too much of it. But after playing games on a competitive level I strongly favor balance over overpowered stuff...thats just how I see it however.

You can be the rambo and kill everyone, theres actually a medal in game for it, its called extermination. But contrarly to Quake where you can do it every game because the mouse makes aiming such a retarded easy thing, it actually takes real skill and strategy to acheive it.

Don't take my arguments srsly in the DIRECT way they are written. What I ment is that u say the game should be equal by making no way to be the "rambo" - you will win because of the strategy u and ur teammates implemented before the game, not for doing crazy rails, moving 1.20 times faster than u usually do and totally oversmarting ur opponent and thinking of a new stategy in ~0.5 sec. I believe that the level of skill achieved by doing the first is far inferior to the second, even though u may need the same amount of time playing to achieve it. For me it looks not only more skillful, it looks like it has a lot more depth - u can achieve a lot more and the limit is a lot of higher.

as mentionned above and indirectly in many other posts ::

as far as balance goes, I agree the game suffers from too much of it. But after playing games on a competitive level I strongly favor balance over overpowered stuff...thats just how I see it however.

::

If theres one element i find a bit harsh to adapt to, it definately is the surpluss of balance. It still remains "possible" to exterminate the entire opposite team by yourself. But quite less common...

What u call balance to me looks like nerfing the game to attract newbies. Slowing the pace of game, making everything "equal" so nothing stands out and u can have fun even if u are playing it for the first time. Not saying that its bad or anything, but for me saying that its rly competetive looks like just lack of knowlage about games like quake. What I see in quake is enemy prediction, movemet, all the timing\choosing between items\strategy and AIM all at a very fast pace that pretty mutch no game can compete with it in that. In fact I was kinda shocked when I saw how different from other games quake is (tbh I have played it before this, but only a little against bots without knowing all the strafing and timing and the game seemed like a simple but fun shooter back then) and from then I fail to see stuff like this in other games. Except for strategies maybe... But while being very complex they are very "unnatural" and most of thinking is automatic, few moves being original.

exactly. what he calls ballance I call a shallow game with low skill potential.

It's not even just the controller alone, it's because playing a game of halo is like spawning 200/200 with a railgun with that fires as fast the shotty. this is poor design for 1v1 gameplay yes and that's why halo is awful in 1v1, but you really have to ask yourself why, like it or not, clan arena has become the dominant team game in quake at the complete expense of tdm and ctf? it's because people hate being made of glass off spawn, the fact that you just gave the team another point is punishment enough

the "real" hitbox in halo is basically a dot compared to quake hitboxes, if you don't land a headshot you don't kill them 90% of the time, and unlike CS headshots in halo are not random at all. if halo was played with mouse+keyboard we'd really have the perfect competitive game in front of us, it combines the tactical positional action of CS with the frantic map control+item timing aspects of quake.

Again, u said TACTICAL POSITIONAL postitioning and TIMING. Timing and collecting items at 320 ups FTW.

the arguments here remind me of so many other discussions of quake vs game x...

here is some typical example:
"the movement in game x is more simple."
this does not mean, that it 'takes away' skill, cause you can always gain an advantage over other players with good movement, no matter how dumped down it is. what it means, is that skill in this sector doesn't have such a great impact on the game. so the difference between someone with good movement to someone with bad movement is not that huge in game x as it is in quake.
same is true for mouse aim vs controller aim.
i am quite sure, when you compare teamplay between games, there are examples like this that favor cs/halo over quake

i like to think of the above as facts. now here comes my interpretation / opinion:
for 1v1 play, quake has got more aspects that deeply influence the game than other games. thats why even good players with lots of experience can lose 20:1 to someone very good instead of what i image would be 15:7 in most other games. thats part of why i like it and thats why its not going well if u look at player numbers.
now note again this was about 1v1 gameplay. i cant really judge team-games here, cause the complexity is far greater and the different aspects of the game are harder to distinguish.

so does everyone agree or do you just get replies when your writing absolutely biased comments that just rage for one side?

yes, the rage part, for everything else there are plusses :)

what, a different game? no.

sry, but the mlg top 10 video really made me laugh

the other thing that i feel compelled to mention about halo is that even a "bad" map like narrows or ivory tower still shits all over anything quake has ever had to offer for tdm. whoever was in charge of the weapon design over at bungie is a little loopy, but the mappers have done an A+ job in all 3 games. maps like chill out, midship, the pit, all have ridiculous level of intricacy in regards to firing angles, cover, and power positions on the map that is completely unseen in any other games. halo players are quite spoiled in their map pool honestly, they really have no idea how difficult it is to create a solid balanced map. given that halo 3 is the last in the series, i imagine that remakes of all the quality halo 1 and halo 2 maps is inevitable.

just to show exactly to what extent this goes, here's a brief list of competitive halo maps and i'm not even going to list the ones the halo community considers "bad"

hang em high (h1)
chill out (h1)
damnation (h1)
midship (h2)
sanctuary (h2)
guardian (h3)
the pit (h3)
construct (h3)
wizard/warlock (h1/h2)
battle/beaver creek (h1/h2)
lockout/blackout (h2/h3)

like i said, this list is supposed to be brief. a remake of midship for halo 3 is inevitable, remakes of wizard, beaver creek, chill out, and hang em high very likely.

The thing that really bothered me when I tried out Halo 3 was that all the multiplayer maps that the game shipped with were all large/outdoor style maps. The classic style indoor DM maps have gone the way of the dodo.

You forgot Prisoner, easily the most dynamic and intense Halo map. Rat Race was also in competitive map pools (though not popular because it was basically pistol-only) and even Derelict was played commonly for CTF matches.

http://www.rakaka.se/?news_id=6029

Is this guy using an aimbot? Watch 0:15

So? you cant get it, can you? THE future of esports are, joysticks, autoregenerating shields (as in no having to time items or have map control, thats for noobs), slow movement (so any jackass can hit you and think theyre good) AND ofc a good aimbots, you cant understand the skill that is required to get a good aimbot and install it, till you play halo3 with joystick moving like a turtle and with an aimbot, you have no fkin idea, quake is dead and requires no skill at all!!!!





wait

we're in the dark ages of TFTs and joypads

lol

Good definition, cant wait for the renaissance!

haha, map control in halo is more important than quake

on top of having to control a specific few points where items come back, your team needs to control the whole damn thing. if the other team has full map control good luck getting your shields up, the upper echelons of strategy revolve around "setups" where at least one teammate has a clear shot on any position for the map. think how dm2 in qw is played, where the goal on that particular map is achieve total maplock and wreck everyone off spawn

The game gives the player a bit of auto-aim and reticle magnetism.

Auto-aim - if the corner of the reticle it over the enemy, the bullet coming out of the barrel of your gun with be angled to hit the enemy (not right past them).

Reticle Magnetism - your reticle is attracted to enemies, you can test this by having someone walk back and forth in front of you and lightly touch the thumbstick, you'll notice how the reticle tracks your enemy easily.

So yeah, that guy does have aimbot. Everyone does in Halo.

well, i think with the new systems providing 60fps and all..
aim can be en par, yes

my experiences were, that its darn smooth and i prefer chillin infront of a tv set over the pc any time

Somehow, it's less funny as the actual picture. =/

Haha, much better.

tried to watch some "high" halo matches but I found it pretty boring
I also played a bit of halo and I don't understand how you get owned, anyway getting owned is not enough to like this game
the only valid point would be the fact that halo has a lot of players which increase the level of matches

Watch MLG Meadowlands event this weekend and see. ( they should have enough $$$ to make streaming a viable technology, hopefully )

Obviously its not as fast as Quake, but anyone putting these kids down so far have been doing so for the wrong reason.

They are just as noble and just as skilled as any profesionnal Quake player. It however requires a lot more dedication and planification to dominate their ranks considering the vast amount of people in it and the overwhelming balance the playing field suggests.

As for being owned, I also am wondering how I can suck so much at a gun/crosshair based game. I guess all those years of elitism in Quake slowed down my adaptation muscle....that and im old....ya old...

Oh and your daughter, althoug a bit chubby is some great fap material :)

with all the respect to elite halo players and high level halo competitions, I still can't quit quake for a game I don't like
I wonder if you adaptation have nothing to do with your determination - do you play halo a few hours every day, like I suppose you used to do in quake times ?
to me is no wonder one game can be so different than other, even regarding the same game, I used to be good on pt4 and sucked bigtime on dm6, especially because dm6 is a shaft based map and pt4 is RL (first if it is to ask me) and RG and because different armor and MH timing
my daughter is pretty nice, sometimes I ask her just so I feel good "who's your daddy ?"

omg thats cool cant wait for my daughter to grow and play quake and kick my ass.

make her lick your balls instead, i am pretty sure it would feel a lot better than kicking your fat ass

oh man youre really nasty arent you? a little less porn watching and a little more real thing action might probe worthy.

real thing (duel haha) is boring for me these days. group sex ftw :)

i think my daughter will be as hot as i expect from a child of mine, if not more, and "dirty" as hell hehe

>I guess all those years of elitism in Quake slowed down my adaptation muscle

Are you fkin kidding man, or just trolling. Elite quake is ALL about adaptation muscle to outmsmart your opponent. I guess you really never understood the game with a truly 1337 mindset, and you were destined to end playing with joypads and 60hz.

And thats not bad, just taste. Once again, the bad part is comparing it against 10 years of die hard competitive oriented experience right in this community. I repeat maybe youre just trolling a bit unintentionally, believing something that we just cant take no mother the money at stakes or number of active players.

By adaptation , I didnt mean gameplay adaptation to a new command style like mass xerping, or adjusting to the latest patch changes to cpma. Or adjusting between a +forward rusher vs a +back rail sucker no no no no.

What i meant is, 10 years of Quake got my fighting reactions so centered that I have a hard time adapting to new gameplay styles.

It seems to take me considerably longer to understand the fighitng mechanics than expected. Still wondering if its because I underestimated the skill it takes to play a fps console game or if im just plain bad at them :)

That being said, I made the jump with 2 other veteran Quake/Cod players and they are pretty much having a hard time as well.

As far as Quake skills and mindset goes, I believe i reached a pretty high level of play considering the opportunities I had in front of me...at least enough to meet all pro players and play vs them, a thing many l33t hardcore fanboys here can't even relate too, yet take for granted.

You were lucky enough to play 1st tier players that proves everything, im a noob and youre hardcore, you must be some kind of enlightened player that realized the true meagning of the fps genre, going from quake to halo.

Meh I probably didnt undersatand your thing about the l33t mindset thats all.

I was merely trying to prove I have more than pubbing experience to my claims.

Basically I was trying to say that its more commendable to pass judgment on things you have entierly experienced, rather than judge based on either first impressions or projections.

In other words, Im trying to repent for all the shit ive said against what i used to consider "lower skilled" games on the sole basis that our game is faster and supposedly more intricate. ( may those games be CS/Halo/ or even competitive WoW. )

Lower depth is the term, and is an atribute of the game. skilled are players. When depth and skill merge during more than a decade, youre talking about evolution, like thousands of small improvements from every part, like the fundamental change from keyboard only doom days to keyb-mouse quake1.

If I had enough social skills to convince a profesionnal CS player to comment on deep the game he plays is, we would all be surpirsed at the amount of non visual information that goes in the mind of a CS player.

What i really hate about our elitsm is the fact we are bold enough to dismiss others like us as "inferior" or "less of a reference".

I think in the ends its like trying to build the best fast food restaurant from a mix of all of them.

Mcdonalds fries
Burger King`s beef
Wendy`s salad
and your local burger joint`s bread buns

all of that would make for the perfect burger experience.

same goes for gaming.

Quake`s movement
Halo`s playerbase
TF`s community
and a fucking mouse+kb

would make the perfect fps game.


But until all that happens, we can try and compare oranges to appels all we want, it remains schemantics that cannot be proven beyond personal perspective.

To those, PR and $$$ like big corporations injecting billions while dumbing the depth for example with a totally inferior control input, sucks. Meanwhile, evolution rules. Too bad for us its not the kind of evolution that decides who lives or die, otherwise you could be completely sure that those 20k halo OS beings loaded with aimbots to even the field a bit would be completely vanished by a handful of quake OS mercenaries using 75 handicap.

Mouse+KB is possible on consoles. We just need to forge our demands properly towards the companies that pay for it.

I know this is harsh news for cave dwellers like us but there is no way in hell the pc market takes back that portion they lost to the console world.

We are better off adapting what we like from pc to the consoles than the other way around. THis is proven not only in player demographics, but also in developper/publisher buisness roadmaps etc.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/core-pc...d-software

( you can expect quake live to be their last project started with a PC architecture in mind and then ported to consoles, SyncError would be in position to attest this maybe...but i doubt he would )

PC gaming will never die per se, but its most probably doomed to smaller communities like this one here. ( not necessarly a bad thing )

Consoles and pcs all on keyboards and mouse playing fps's togheter, that would be nice.

PC players would have to be rational and accept restrictive hardware rules.

If i remember right, the 60 fps cap wasnt exactly the most welcomed "feature" in q4 lol.

But i totally agree and believe this is where its heading. A standardised mainstream streaming platform branded by many differnt companies.
( picture steam but on a complete scale and...better )

One single media point, capable of streaming game/music/applications.

a mix of consoles/pc/internet2 etc porn and memes.

omg 60 fps, wont work lol, why consoles have to be so restrictive?

I mean, were just taking into account two differences

keyb+mouse and 120fps
vs
joypad and 60fps

Why not asking console developers to have the 120fps keyb+mouse option, rather than castrating a grown culture. Thats the whole console mindset, and it truly scares the sh17 of me.

"same goes for gaming.

Quake`s movement
Halo`s playerbase
TF`s community
and a fucking mouse+kb

would make the perfect fps game."

OH GOOD! I see you haven't completely lost your mind. :D

Obviously not haha. I approach all time consuming situations mathematically.

I figured theres more to learn on a purely gaming standpoint from Halo at this time.
Take into account that im a 1v1 player in the Quake world, theres even less incentive to play it altogther right now etc....

I will absolutely try Quake Live, however after a strong analysis of the market ( with the idea of taking part more than just as a gamer ) I came to realize that no matter the amount of features added to the series, it most probably will remain a niche market.

Maybe.....with proper publicity going beyond the usual channels used by Id Software, maybe we can expect to play Quake live in a vibrant American scene, but to be honest even at the peak of its art, Quake in american soil never really peaked over 1000 active players...

that being said, Im ready for another go, I spent 2.5 years playing with the same 8-12 guys, I dont see how worse it could get !!! ( unless qlive is nothing more than q3 with web based matchmaking )

until then, halo it is ! ( Just the fact that all i need to do is press X and relax on my couch until im playing versus 4 people around my skill level makes the entire experience worthwhile man ( usually less than 30 seconds ) )

"Mcdonalds fries
Burger King`s beef
Wendy`s salad
and your local burger joint`s bread buns

all of that would make for the perfect burger experience."

I see your taste in food is as profound as your taste in games.

American made bish !!

I cant really talk about my local food considering my origins. Figured id use a broad example :)

Anyways I never could manage to convince 3 other people to play Halo in a serious way....sooooooo

ill keep bashing on quake live until i find another good game to toy around with.

Recently discovered TrackMania Nations Forever and I must admit the medals are addictive :)

guess you're all about competition. that's fine, just don't expect everyone to buy into that "halo is as good" stuff just because you can't play anything else in your igloo.

I'm talented in fps, but I won't play again competetive.
Too much time to invest, to low out come :-(

Just bought me a Wii, and playing Mario Galaxy,
and found out Single Player Gaming is still fun :-)
After Mario Galaxy I am thinking of getting me Resident Evil 4 or Mario Kart,

for me competetive online gaming is definately over,
maybe even pc gaming, console gaming is better accessable to me,
it's less realistic, but more fun.

its not an incentive to try halo 3 if my regular quakeskills arent applicable and i will get my ass handed to me, quite the opposite actually. Why do you think good guitar players often talk bad about guitar hero?

You do have a point there.

I actually believe a lot of people are afraid to switch from Quake to any other competitive game whatsoever, and that so due to the comfort they are accusomted to in skill.

Learning the ropes again is hard, especially when we get older.

That being said, there are a lot of elements that carry over from the Quake exprience for me. From combat perspective to item timing and obviously teamwork...

amongst all the recent "xerping" bullshit in the quake scene, im actually happy to play on a restrained platform, it diminshes the conspiracy theories when losing/winning :)

When I was in the Marines, they had an extra duty for people getting out which was Gaurd duty. When I was there I was the Corporal of the Gaurd, we couldn't leave our quarters unless it was for posts, so basically I got ALOT of Halo2 time in. I think its a good game for those types of people and I think it has more competitive skill then say.. guitar hero, but I dont think Quake players are "affraid to switch" they just don't want to. Halo feels like im running through the mud and gliding through the air. It just isn't as satisfying to me as flying around a corner.. ramp jumping sliding into a flag room and blasting my way in and out.

so true

because it's a gimmicky full of shit parody of..
ho, I see what you did there

It's comments like these that have you getting plussed all the time. You clever bastard.

hehe

Please

Come on

STOP THE [+] RIOT
lol

I have seen you post this like on 3 different forums in ESR. Are you getting paid by MLG or something lol? I am not saying that MLG isn't cool and 1 up for esports whatever, but why are you posting this up on multiple threads. A couple of days ago you posted this on the Week 1 results.

Yes because it all started as a reply to Croissant who was trolling about the fact that there is no more worthy competition skillwise in active q4.

I figured id reply to him where i was losing most of my free time etc etc. It just gathered so much attention i felt bad for the OP ( troy ) and decided to start a real thread instead, carrying said discussion over here.

But you reaction is typical to this site, every time someone truly stands up and tries to either present a new vision or fix something others are so afraid to change / lose, you guys see conspiracies or better yet, you assume there is a personal agenda behind it.

In the process I came to realize I have no place in this community, mostly because the vast majority of said community makes it impossible to achieve any kind of advancement, even in their own game. Its constantly a duality between two meaningless choices which ends up narrowing the already small number of followers the game has.

Im just not elite enough !

I think its time to close this thread as well, nothing productive will come out besides flames and most of what i had in mind is long gone :)

I tried at least.

Back to lurkmoad and random troll anonymous answers, like ESR should be.

If you look at my responses.. I didn't even bash you and I said good for you .. I just said earlier why do you think we are affraid of it. If anything I think I probably had the most decent response out of all of these. I didn't agree, but I didn't bash you.

don't get all emo on us. You know deep down you see what we're saying. Ultimately, if the player base was there, you'd still be playing quake4. And while there may be something to skill in Halo3, it doesn't compare to the type of skills used in q4.
I'm telling you man, if nothing else you've strengthened my resolve to sticking with quake and trying to help it grow.
BUT, I'm also probably going to go out and buy a 360, especially since I saw that you can pre-order GTA4 now. :D

Hehe my copy of Niko Bellick rapes the US is pre-ordered for sure.

And you are right, if there was any remote chance of a future with Quake , i definately would still be playing. I just come to think that i have done all i could for the Quake community locally.

I "gave birth" to about 12 local players and managed to get the game included in all our local lans. It was fun for 2 years but now, considering there is no international backing for the game, it's rather hard to keep people motivated, let alone lan administrators...and myself :)

Im now trying to bring those same guys to Halo, not because it's the better game, but mostly because I believe that with such a well designed approach to competition, it will help us more in the long run than sticking to Quake.

Obviously, if Quake live is the second coming, expect another Jamerio'ed version of this thread explaining how I found the light again lol...but for now, im learning all I can from the dark side.

Wow only playing a game for the money... must be the life :>... I'd rather just play it for the fun and the challenge.

Dont twist the facts sir.

I never spoke about money being the main drive. Competition is the drive here, and it always was.

It was the case with Quake 4 as well. I was very decent but nowhere near the money, and when the money dissapeared, it took away most of the people I enjoyed playing against.

In any case Im humble enough to admit i probably wont win much more than i did with Quake, winning local events only and placing relatively well on international ones....

such an experience is a thrill to live that goes beyond the fun of waiting on irc for games for hours while reading nonsense teenager bullshit...

traveling, meeting up with other people at the venue, partying, developping the culture behind the game beyond the troll based forums you see...

now as mentionned earlier, I dont really dig the way you reply to my stuff because you seem to misinterpret both where im heading and where im from. I respect you for the little i know of you in the quake community, and i encourage you check my background before going around yelling i only invest time in games based on money. Contrarly to most people here, I actually tried to help directly with the q4 scene and put things together for a long while, I just quit because there was absence of the main element....the players.

If your idea of fun is to play vs the same 5 guys all the time, 3 of them quitting on you after a few mins for x y z reason, i totally respect that, but in no way does it give you the right to rattle me out as a money whore...thats just ludicrous man...

Thats the thing that gets me though, the scene really didnt die like you said it did. It was true for a while immediately after the WSVG but alot of people returned, dont get me wrong I have issues with those people who left because of the WSVG.

I have been to a ton of LANs and I love the competition, I even love the idea that there could be an esports, but I do not dig that people switch from game to game because there isn't a competition in it. The community is just that.. a community.. the community has to bring the tournaments and the leagues, and they shouldnt' have to look up to big corporate giants to determine what the game to play is. Now again, I have heard about you and I even read your interview in Pro Gam3r. I am not disrespecting you and I don't want to make it seem that way. I just don't like this play whats in for money attitude. If you geniunly love playing Halo 3 or whatever over Quake 4 power to you thats great, but I just hate people who will only enter a league or tournament ONLY if there is money involved, or stray from the games they enjoy because of the bulk of gamers have changed their game preference.

... and though I love the fact that esports could happen, the fact is .. its not happening. If you put the amount of time in and the amount of income earned. Unless your dominating on top like Toxjic, or your like Fatali1ty with endorsements your making less than a pizza boy on average (which is around 20 to 30k annually). Gaming for money isn't realistic the way it is set up now, and too unstable. Which is why I say play the game for fun not just because of the money.


To add about the constant stream of same player pool, I think thats a bit off too, I duel alot of different people often, the best duels I have though are with friends and team mates and I am perfectly happy with it. I am glad to say that I made an effort with Q4 in the #truecarnage channel on quakenet and the league,and since its conception (the channel that is) about 4 weeks ago we have seen constant pick up games and steady idlers of 80-95 in a US community that doesn't even know what the fuck MIRC is and a game that this community considered "dead". So I am happy with that yes.

I will know where to look if the urge to play some decent Q4 hits me then :)

And ya, its definately not for the money. Realistically speaking, I dont think i will earn a single cent until season 2009 and even then....

I just seek an easy way to stay in gaming shape and it was becoming more and more difficult to fill that desire in the state Quake 4 had become.

Although I managed to keep a fine reputation among other players, I think i was the active guy that spent the most time alone in servers after Judge. Either that or I had to play vs Judge or Naymlis lol...never in a month did i end up playing more than 8 different people. It greatly reduces the amount of creativity i could impose on my game etc.

It could all be the way I am as a gamer as well you know, some people can grow to be the very best only using 2-3 different oppoenents, because they are those who create new styles of play etc. I am not that fortunate, most of my skill comes like the Mega Man games, when i beat someone better than me, i try and learn his most powerful asset and adopt it over time. I felt like I had reached the best skill i could on a time/vs skill ratio and wasnt ready to put even more time in it....

playing halo just broadens my gaming perspective, enables me to meet a shitload new people and share my experiences on both side. Just you wait until i have a few years under my belt ( if it ever comes to that at all ) Im going to flood their forums too and tell them how better of a game Quake is etc etc...

motivation works in strange ways haha

Well good luck with that and definately hit me up with some games. I know some other good players that are up there with judge and naymlis just begging for a challenge. I am on #truecarnage and I even idle the #q41v1. If I had an xbox id probably play ya in that for shits and gigles. I know what its like to want more competition, thats why I love playing Quake 4. :)

I really wonder if you ever tried playing rtcw (or even ET even though it is nowhere a good).

Because:

- Teamwork is very important there, can't win only on your own.
- Aiming does take real skill, cause you almost always need at least one headshot if you want to win a duel.
- strategy and tactics are insanely important, and that includes covering certain areas setting crossfires and protecting your teammates while the reload or heal on defense, and on the other hand throwing tactical airstrikes and attacking in split groups with fakes and everything looking for weaknesses i the enemy's defense
- the majority of original maps are very accepted in the community, some only became playble in 6on6 after further tweaking but were great in ffa or such.
- timing enemy spawns and setting up a panzerfaust to rape them is essential
- ET is played by lots of players (while rtcw sadly isn't anymore)
. that teamplay is very important is also shown thruogh the fact that most teams that won tournaments knew their teammates very well, beating ffa teams with high individual skill in the process.

plus:

- the movement while not nearly as fast as quake does include strafe jumping, making it a big advantage for those who excel at it, also dodging in close combat is very important.
- through the objective based gameplay almost every match you get at the very least on clutch moment where you alone can save the day
- it's possible for one player to score a quadruple kill in 5 seconds and feeling great about it and still the opponent can revive and continue playing through god teamplay.
- aiming with the mouse is possible, necessarily and still not overly game controlling ;)



Oh and it's a an id game, so no need to go to the dark side :P

Yes i actually played ET for a bit with a local team. The only reason we had to quit was the lack of players. Very nice pubbing
scene howerver, with lots of active players.

My main gripe with it ( and its a pub only issue ) is people who exploit the spawn system and call artillery on it. Obviously in a real team such an issue is minimzed but it quickly became old when playing with random people.

That game , like many others, is 5 to 10 times more active in Europe howerver. There is not much happening on this side of the ocean in the Wolf series anymore.

Come to think of it Halo is pretty American as well, when looking at the matchmaking map, theres definately a few dots in europe but the entire Usa and Canada a full of blips :)

[kiss]

<3

Let me first say I've played all versions of halo and quake enough to form an opinion on the matter:

Bungie has been a great company forever (even now with MS). Halo3 is the epitome of what pro gaming needs in every aspect other than the shitty controllers. I read through most of the thread so I won't regurgitate too much....the map design (and ability to create NEW great maps), game-play balance, match-making system, and more than any other aspect -- Bungie's support for the game (in terms of changing things based on what the community wants, introducing new maps all the time, introducing new game-types, fixing glitches, etc) is top notch.

The argument that mouse + kb has become too easy, and therefore crippling the aiming device isn't necessarily a bad idea is an interesting one. It is still complete garbage in the sense that you should be able to put more emphasis on other aspects of the game (people commented on the teamplay required more than anything else) without neutering some of the GREATEST aspects that FPS on PCs perfected.

It was said that mouse aim is too easy, and yet we still haven't hit the ceiling after this many years. Imagine how fast halo3 aim is going to peak with the stupid joysticks. I have played Quake for however many years and STILL have plenty of room for improvement in the two major mouse+kb areas (movement and aiming). Now, tell me the "future" of FPS gaming is with 2 sticks for my thumbs.

"ability to create NEW great maps"
wow, now that's impressive.

Still a first on consoles in a way...

and the way they implemented it is light years ahead of anything in Quake in terms of sharing that new map.

Took people almost one year to get their hands on the proper monsoon version in the worst of cases lol...

In halo you can actually create maps in real time, with other people all at once and jump to game mode without reloading etc...you can also kill people in map mode rofl :)

Bash all you want bro, it remains innovation over the shitty ways we have to share maps , let alone build them.

come on, everything in pc world isn't as fail as q4, don't bring it as top of the notch in here, it's kind of ridiculous

tbh for a second : I've no doubt about halo having some bright sides, gameplay or whatever, but I'll still find playing fps or rts with analogic joypad as retarded as playing shoot em up or street fighter like games with a keyboard and a handicap likely as playing pc fps with a tft and a shitty mouse
and sure having a big community and cool community stuffs around it is great, but what does it has to do directly with halo ?

basically halo would be even better with mouse and a gameplkay fitting it, but that's just imo ; who cares about opinions anyway
now back to trolling, cause I've exploded my obviouspoints credits

and btw, I don't knwo much about halo3 mapping, but I would be surpized there is a real mapping tool in it ; so don't bring the mapping argument cause it's 10 00000000000 times more developped on pc, plus not talking about modding and shit
ok "create maps in real time" (moving one of the 3 box you're allow to move and placing items ?) is cool, I would be glad to use this kind of tool ; but in the end that's just a gimmick. a cool one

Ya obviously there is no regards to radiants and lightning and such. ( te be fully honest you cant even create meshes or brushes ) But it makes it a lot easier for a team of beta testers ( officially sanctionned by the league, another thing we tried and failed at when DKT came with the bright idea to vouch for fucking AMCS of all maps.... *you said back to trolling so i figured*...) to fix the map and make balance changes.

I agree about the mouse and keyboard thing to be honest. Obviously so far in this discussion we came to the conclusion that both worlds should learn from each other. There are reasons beyond accessibility that favors Halo in terms of player demography, just as there are reasons other than mouse+kb that makes the Quake control scheme a better one.

Not exactly sure where gaming is heading, but I strongly doubt the "mainstream" most of us had pictured will happen on PC, unless we manage to come up with a very standardized PC...heh.

What about convincing ID to go on and make the full move towards consoles ( they will anyway ) and implement a mouse+kb solution to the xbox for instance.. Quake 5 would benifit from a standardized platform with matchmaking and possible support from already well established leagues....
or do you guys really want 120fps gameplay and xerp commands ?? hehe

yep I want 120fps and xerp or whatever improve netcode (assuming the game will be balanced for netcode/connections of nowdays)
simple as that

I think the fps/hz issue will remain a subject of debate for a long while.

But i dont see it impossible over time that we get more freedom over network options in consoles.
Id wager it will happen before common lcd based display reach 120hz / sub 1ms refresh at an affordable price.

yep, when tft will have a decent refresh rate we will be half foot out of the slow limp zombi fps tomb, the other foot being ofc the joypad which doesn't allow as much gameplay possibilities as a mouse (and it's tied to monitors too : when all tft tv will be HD, it will be possible and common to surf internet with a console and so they will have keyboard/mouse devices)
basically consoles will stop ruining fps genre when consoles will finish the transformation they started after 16bits generation : being PCs
I wish console didn't start being PCs at all ; console gameplay spirit died a long time ago, died with 2D end

i'm conviced forge (the halo 3 map editor) is a calculated experiment on microsoft's part to determine exactly how awful and counterintuitive you can make an interface before people flat out reject its use at all

if it wasn't for a lot of different glitches discovered in it the thing would be entirely unusuable

Its accessibility ( omg no failword ) will still bring good things in the future.

Im convinced there are many people out there would could create manigificient maps but are currently restrained by the tools and the technological demands involved.

Now I know what I just said suggests once again over simplcifaction and noobification of a processus some of you hold sacred.... i still think standardisation is one of the main problem at hand.

Give or take, I agree Forge is shit, but its still a gigantic effort to push the boundaries of common user input on consoles.

you can still make nice looking things out of it, the problem is that what takes like 3 hours to do would take like 3 minutes in a conventional map editor. i don't understand why there aren't some very basic things like snap to grid/angle, and the ability to rescale the objects like you can the goal in king of the hill

at any rate, now that people have discovered ways to let forge pretend it's a proper map editor, i need to give remaking aerowalk another go, i can probably get the geometry equivalence near perfect this time around whereas before i had to make some changes to GL room that really fagged up the map flow in that part of the map, the rest of the map felt like familiar territory

I wouldnt risk it, chances are someone with a very narrowed view of what a map should be will just brush it off as "filled with random portals"

or was it pillars...meh !

agree, there should be a level of mapping tool, in between doing nothing and using a full editor, which should look like e.g. trackmania editor
something stupidly simple
but thinking of it, editing stuff in gtkradiant or else isn't complex at all if you just wanna build simple maps ; that's just that there is in the interface all the other options for advanced mapping which may make the editor looks like something awfully complex at 1st look, but that's just illusion

There was some other shit FPS game that had map-making before Halo 3. The name of it escapes me right now, but it also came out for PC at the same time.

I think you need to stop basing your arguments on quake 4

Well, as opposed to most people here it seems, I like to comment and judge things on an educated basis.

I could compare with CS but I never really took time to analyse let alone play at high levels.

I did with UT2k4 for a short while but comparing this would further my views even more cause that scene was just as small time as Quake 4... ( or any 1v1 scene ) I could also compare to Quake 3 but most of the arguments would still apply....

I think in the end im just immensely turned off by the way things were handled in the PC gaming/competing market. From companies not supporting their games, to tournament organisers buttfucking the attendance and the athletes themselves lol...

how can anyone pose a fair judgement withtout real tangible experience will always elude me...

I also have yet to understand how the minds of people who want gaming to have a bigger impact but a game not made for the masses all at once...compromise must be made at some point...

and SSBB rules, thats another game people here would brush off as simple and noobish while lacking to see all the depth behind it...

Smash bros has given me probably my most fun and memorable gaming experiences :X

Dark side? Yeah, right. You went to silly, girly, rainbow colored, metrosexual side.

Haha touche mofo !

I lol'ed.

do they actually play with aim assist on on the higher skiled matches? just curious.

btw, those player commentary things are quite cool :)

As mentionned by Zanno earlier , you cannot really call it aim assistance anymore because it does not work on headshots and headshots are pretty much mandatory if you want to seal a kill.

But to answer your question in a direct yes no manner, I believe the aim assisatance remains unmodified from the stock game, I cannot be certain however.

I played about 1300 games so far and if aim assistance was such a boon, mine must be turned off cause i cant quite make use of it :)

Back in Halo 2 , it was reportedly the entire opposite. I havent played that game at all so I cant really mentionning anything potent about it.

While we are on topic of high skilled matches,
the coverage for the first ever Halo 3 mlg event starts in 3-4 hours.
If you guys want pointers on what the scene should be like in terms of streaming and coverage, I think this could be a fairly nice guideline, that being said, im telling you all this based on their hype, but im tempted to belive they will do the job.

Links will be up on www.mlgpro.com if not already ( sorry for plug, its posted purely on an educational pov )
In any case, this thread will serve as a rant/praise billboard for it :)

The thing with the aim is in correct. I dunno if I can find the video anywhere, but the way the auto-aim works in Halo 2 and 3 is that you could literally be shooting at the guy's balls and be getting headshots.

some weapons have a lot more aim assist than others, mlg uses only the weapons where aim assist has the lowest impact. it's why there's no assault rifle, needler, etc in mlg

despite being the #1 requested feature of the competitive community we didn't get the option, but they did drastically cut down the autoaim on all long range weapons from h2->h3

also i just remember on of my bigger problems wihth the game(besides the unfamiliar controller)
it was the low fov.. iirc its about 75 while usually i play with 110 - 120 so it really felt like i couldnt see anything and i kept getting sneaked from behind cause of this :/

being used to 110 is at least approaching acceptable, but once you get used to 120-130 and up anything lower is unplayable. :(
*just my own experience

iirc halo 2 was 70, and halo 3 is widescreen fov70 and 4:3 fov55 !!!

Those values are meaningless in a certain sense.

The game is made with the fov in mind and nobody can change his. It may reduce the amount of possible customisation, the maps and the overall game mechanics were built with that fov in mind.

When you feel like you get sneaked upon, it is nothing else than that lol, and from someone suffering from the same shitty fov as you do.

The fact a joystick is being used as the main control input does have a gigantic impact on game mechanic decisions, that so beyond the aiming itself.

There would be an entire debate behind what commands actually help on a gameplay perspective vs those who make the game "easier". Actually i think ive seen such a debate on esr in the qlive sandbox thread.

well.. it goes beyond me, why that decision was made for halo 3, instead of using fov 70 for 4:3 and like 80-90 for wide.. ppl with the money just get a huge advantage.. And I really hope more ppl are gonna whine some about it on the bungie forums or smthng, because it really pisses me off, exactly getting assassinated..

They will reply that MLGPRO standardized the television set as follwing ::

Samsung 22 inch.

Are you entirely sure we have more fov using a wide screen ? I never played on a standard crt tv so i cant check.

100% positive, I've read it on the bungie forums

and using a SD TV myself :)

I'd rather drink whale sperm than play halo.

good for you..

At any rate, all discussion of how much the game is awesome/shit aside, i think we need to all ask ourselves why halo can comfortably fill a 256 team (team, that works out to ~1000 players at one event) bracket and quake can't. i'm not too familiar with CS, has it even gotten close to that size in its prime?

In b4 self gratifying game that anyone can get into relatively fast.

168 comment too late ;D

http://www.esl.eu/de/cs/5on5/mr12/ladder/

k, not a tournament but it's only Germany! And I diin't want to search for more than two minutes. Also 50 matches official per day is quite active.



DISCLAIMER: I NEVER HAVE PLAYED NOR WILL I EVER PLAY CS ONLINE OR ON LAN TOURNAMENTS!

isn't ESL an online-only thing? if you compare it to the h3 equivalent gamebattles that's a mere fraction of their registered teams. the last h3 gamebattles season had something around 10k teams

the ladder in the link is online only, but the esl has got a lot lan tourneys(extreme masters) or leagues with lan finals (eps,wc3l,...)

- First big FPS series on consoles
- First big FPS series to have MP on consoles (Q3 was first on DC though!)
- Gaming is far, far bigger these days
- Halo (And COD4) is the name in FPS gaming these days especially MP. Doom, Quake, Unreal, even Half-Life to a degree are either not known/cared for or just aren't considered as big.
- Consoles have a far bigger community than PCs
- Most people who have an XBOX360 have Halo3, and they probably bought the XBOX360 for the Online stuff (And thus will play Halo3 OR COD4)
- It is easier to get into, due to many, many reasons (If you deny this you're an idiot)
- People often play with their mates, and probably thought it would be a good time

There are probably tonnes more that I've not even begun to consider though since I'm not overly familiar with Halo3.

Don't forget Xbox Live which has unified multiplayer by tying in everything from messaging, chat, VOIP, matchmaking, ranking, etc. all from the comfort of a single machine that you plug into a socket, plug into your TV, plug a controller into, and gives you everything you need literally at your fingertips to get right into a game, competitive or not.

That kind of experience/convenience is still pretty esoteric on the PC - the only equivalent I can think of is MMOs, and even then, not all of the features I mentioned are present for any specific one.

Any idiot can pick up a remote.

any idiot can use a mouse too, that doesn't mean they're not going to suck with it

I've seen plenty of people struggle with the use of a mouse and keyboard control scheme when starting out. Never seen anyone have trouble with a controller.

because you've never seen anyone good at halo?

if you've never seen a 50-7 ass raping in h1 then you've probably never seen anyone good at halo

Actually took part in Halo 1 tournaments as I held them monthly at the local LAN center where I worked. I've seen countless little girls and mothers come in and pick the game up instantly, yet they struggle to even begin to understand how to use WASD.

Is it me or its kinda sad when people use extreme examples that are totally off the representative scale of things in order to prove their point...

Fine enough dude, the mouse+kb is the better combo, that was established at reply no.2

do everyone who tries to bring something to the table a favor and refrain from replying if you are going to try and prove your point using such comparative values....

Èven if i was to take your example word for word, I honestly doubt the girls and grandmas were any better with the controller than they would be with a mouse ....

anyways, i dont even see why i take time to reply to this...people like you just make it all the harder to have a debate. Your input is pretty much the same i would expect from a 12 year old kid lacking any life experience whatsoever.

More to that, the way you defend mouse+kb makes me think you feel all special because you are able to use it lol...in my opinion none of the 2 is more noble than the other. They are just 2 different ways to achieve something.

A non-direct analogy would be Baseball bats. Some players prefer wood bats to composite ones, because they usually knock the ball farther etc. But in the end its almost 50/50 and youll never see elaborate discussions on how the wooden bat users are better and more noble because their bat sends the ball longer on average....

in the end, both bats can score homeruns and only the user defines how useful the tool is.

The least you can do for yourself is to try and push the analysis a bit farther when someone brings a topic to the table....brushing it off with a single sentence is the same as not replying at all, and all factors in, you would end up better not replying at all. Anybody can troll, its easy....

Oh, I suppose my SEVERAL YEARS of experience working for multiple LAN centers and hosting gaming events means nothing, right? I've talked to the people who play games and we get freshies in every single day that I talk to and ask things.

Controllers and mice are like checkers and chess. You can't possibly say that checkers is on the same level as chess.

not surprised this stupid post isn't plussed once

Not surprised your stupid comments in this thread haven't been plussed once, either.

Owned

I was very big into Halo 1 when it was still MLG/AGP's tournament game of choice. Then came Halo2/Halo3 which is, imo, wayyy too gimmicky for really competitve play. It mostly comes down to teams meshing very well and all of them playing constantly together.

Halo 1 had tons of exploits. These exploits added to gameplay depth (comparable to Quakeworld's strafe jumping). The same thing was partially true for Halo 2 (however they were more quirky and inconsistent exploits). As far as I know, there are even fewer exploits to be found in Halo 3. Essentially killing the depth of the gameplay that existed in Halo 1.

MLG has done a great job of creating a community around their tournament circuit. However, they've completely bastardized it in a couple ways. First, there's no legacy to MLG anymore. Where MLG/AGP was really supported to begin with by the diehard Halo 1 community and then completely dropped Halo 1 for Halo 2 when it came out (even though there was a very real demand for Halo 1 tournaments still -- most of the old school greats quit and didn't move on to Halo 2). I think they could've run two circuits or had Halo 1 and Halo 2 tournaments running together. But instead they completely dropped Halo 1 from the lineup when Halo 2 came out.

Their forums are very, very moderated. Any mention of other non-MLG tournaments will cause you to get banned (know this from personal experience - or maybe it was just a personal vendetta that MLGPro mods had against me for being so vehemently Halo 1 and anti-Halo 2) or any kind of derivation from "sanctioned forum talk" can get you banned. I'd analogize MLG to a police state. Hahaha. Also, most of the kids there have no idea that there's any type of competitve video gaming outside of MLG activities.

we should fight fire with fire and have the mods ban num3, Zanno and the evil mastermind Freelance_ :P

I would accept that judgment to be honest. It would only confirm this community will forever be stuck in 1998 :)

In any case, this thread at least got my english skills a bit higher ( second language ) and I found a couple of people here who can carry a discussion beyond 3 word sentences and trolling.

Mission accomplished for me!

Back to Vods for me :)


http://www.mlgpro.com/gametime/live/vod

defo not stuck in 1998. The whine is constantly adapting to everything new! :P

Hehe, the whines do adapt. The players, their demands and the overall attitude however does not.

since when does anyone get banned from esr for anything

if it's any consolation halo 1v1 is shit and will be shit no matter what you do with it

it was a joke :(

I think they could've run two circuits or had Halo 1 and Halo 2 tournaments running together. But instead they completely dropped Halo 1 from the lineup when Halo 2 came out.

Well that would have been a bad move. Yeah you piss some ppl out because you drop a game that they love with a newer one but when you run the new game and the old game to try to please everyone you end up killing yourself because your diluting your product. (history anyone?) Following the masses that drops H1 for H2 is the best way to provide yourself with fresh new blood (players, spectators and sponsors). MLG has also been a conservative league. In about 6 years they have had a single main game (halo x) and a second game like super smash bros and they recently added gears of war and rainbow six vegas. Because of their popularity, they can now run multiple games at the same time to keep a solid revenu and solid payoffs to players/teams.

Some ppl would say your selling your soul to the devil for using a newer game to an old an hardcore game but thats the way things works now a days. Keeping things elitist and at the sametime wanting huge price payoffs in tournaments is a daydream. Simple mathematics:
Masses == $
Non evolving elitism != masses
Non evolving elitism != $
Its the truth of our society/economy.

Now if you say you dont care about the $ and you just want a game that you descibe as skillfull and that game gets old then asking for a league that is involved with $ to run tournaments doesnt really fit.

I agree MLG made a really great business decision. They've taken off and doing very well.

My point, however, was that no one should be rationalizing that console gaming is anymore skilled than PC gaming because MLG is big and kids are making a lot of money off of it. It is only this way because it's far more accessible and easier for any average kid to pick up a 360 and Halo 3 and play. Versus someone trying to pickup a hardcore-players-only like Quake/Counter-Strike/Starcraft.

Of course, this is just my opinion and I might be wrong (but probably not).

I agree and never really meant to say or intend that console gaming is *more* skilled.

I mainly laughed at the general consensus here that we as Quake players would beat the masses in halo ( or any FPS game for that matter ) on day 1 because we are the better skilled ones. It's just plain wrong and i know for a fact lots of us take such a perception for granted.

Countless times ive read , and even said, on this forum that other games are inherently easier to master and beat people at. Based on my Quake experience and vision of gaming.

All in all I agree with most of what you say, however when you say its easier to pickup a 360 and play Halo, even tho I agree on that statement, it's probably not for the same reasons. I praise the standardisation of the platform and the game, but still consider it just as hard to play as the 10 year old Quake series. Just as deep and intricate, just in a different manor, one that does not seem to suit Quakers in general, thats all.

I think we're in the same mindset, just different directions, because I'm fairly new to Quake (about 1 1/2 years), but been playing Halo since early 2002 (even though I've pretty much stopped playing except for a couple nights each month).

Yeah, I'd never say that playing Quake will make you naturally good at Halo (or any console game). The one thing it could help you with is the timing of armors/mh is similar in Halo 2/3. And I'd bet that someone coming from Quake would have a much better awareness and reaction time going in than any other newbie. But for the most part, I agree that they're very different beasts. Keyboard and Mouse is very different than Controller with 8 buttons or less.

To me, I was utterly confused with all the say_team binds for my first CTF/TDM matches that I played in Q3. It's very intimidating playing pickup games when you're watching all these binds going and everyone saying get in position like it's a given where I should be. I never had these problems with Halo, but mostly because we LAN'd a lot and you could nudge your teammates and tell them what powerups were coming up and when and where you'll be and stuff.

The complexity of strategy and tactics to the average Q3 pickup game is exponentially higher than the average match-making CTF game on XBLive.

I think for Halo 2 and Halo 3 its more or less positioned to be a casual game that's propped up for tounie play by MLG. If it's something different and enjoyable for you, then more power to you. But I think you'll be disappointed in the long run since, from my perspective, Quake is very much more dynamic and interesting and complicated. And also, this may sound ironic, has a much more mature and intelligent community surrounding it than the Halo community does (even discounting the population disparity).

You bring an interesting point of view here.

You were spoiled in the opposite way coming from Halo first hehe.

Id say this discussion would be nice to have again in about a year, if i still play halo by then and quake live is out and blooming it will be interesting to see how the views have evolved.

On the commnuity level, i have yet to actually take part in the hardcore crew that would be the equivalent of ESR in the HAlo world. Mostly because I dont feel like i would belong there just yet both in skill and general knowledge of the game....

The demography is substantially younger on consoles I believe, especially if quake is the comparative value on pc, but all factors in , this place obviously still holds the most free minds...its just a shame all that comes to the price of gigantic egos.

XBOX ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....

I'd have read these 200-odd posts stating why people's opinions are really factual (well, at least a good handful of them), but I always thought that arrogant mindset was stupid, so I will just state this:

1) Consoles are currently still much cheaper than gaming-capable PC's.

2) Console components (ie, controllers) are always compatible and playable right out of the box with their respective platforms, and thus much more user-friendly than PC's.

3) Certain console games (and online hubs like Xbox Live) have crucial features for user friendliness such as matchmaking that PC games do not have.

Which explains to me why people got into the Halo series in the first place. Also, my theory is that those first games that you end up loving to play all day and all night for all eternity stick with you forever -- for instance, I feel that way about Q4 as do others, while more feel that way with Q3, UT99, CS 1.6, CS Source, etc. I'd guess that people feel that way with the Halo series, which hasn't really brought gameplay changes that significantly deteriorate from a certain aspect of the game without compensation, and so whether it be Halo CE, Halo 2, or Halo 3, they still love to play Halo.

Also, probably a good handful of these same people who play the shit out of Halo have probably gotten into many other games before, although probably on a casual basis, but still with the same sort of love that they have for Halo 3. Those people have most likely decided that, out of all the games they ever loved to play, Halo 3 is the one they loved to play most. Now, can that not be held true with the communities for all the competitive PC games out there?

So, as Freelance said, it all comes down to perception, with the kind that's been demonstrated repeatedly in this thread seemingly the most common. Therefore, if you're not going to convince the Quake community to play Halo 3, then you probably aren't going to do the other way around.

That's my logic anyways (probably with some flaws since I have to go pug Q4CTF now).

1) Consoles are currently still much cheaper than gaming-capable PC's.

$600 for this PC and my hardware is 10x better. Better yet, I can still upgrade for a small fee where you have to buy an entirely new, and more expensive console. I can also do more.

2) Console components (ie, controllers) are always compatible and playable right out of the box with their respective platforms, and thus much more user-friendly than PC's.

Never had a problem except on Linux. You're also generally stuck with first party peripherals or cheap LAZAGUN SHAPE off brands. Much better to buy a keyboard and mouse that contour to both my hand size and playing style.

3) Certain console games (and online hubs like Xbox Live) have crucial features for user friendliness such as matchmaking that PC games do not have.

AIM/internet/IRC/vent? what? Not only does PC gaming have just as many (if not MORE) features, it has more sources. I can post about quake on quake3world/esr/planetquake/etc and talk with people on hundreds of channels on hundreds of different servers. All different people with different opinons from different communities. You, however, are stuck with first-party bullshit.

Console gaming is like mac computing - you'd rather take away all the power you COULD have if you spent more than 2 seconds setting it up, in exchange for lens flares, bloom, and spoilers.

Your points are valid, but it all depends on the main objective...

I currently seek a gaming experience where my technological knowledge of the IT world is not required for instance. I also seek to play vs different people as much as possible, which requires a very vast and active demography.

I dont quite see whats so noble about paying 400$ a year to get better graphics with worse gameplay and even less community ...Although it remains a distinct "feature" of the pc world, its also one of its sharpest double edged-swords.

The very most important issue with Quake`s survival right now is its demography....you will not get any substantial growth if the game remains so innacessible, and yes, hardware requirements/knowledge is an issue. Same goes for the trillion options you all like to say helps you get a better experience while anyone with 100 IQ can realize its all in order to get "an edge"....

In the end, I think the main goal remains unification and the surplus of choice only makes it more complicated. Just look at this very community for micro samples...too much freedom leads to smaller clans and destroys the synergy. ( CPM CQ3 OSP ) ...people cant even make the difference anymore...

Im not saying xbox live hit the ballpark with the perfect combo, but again, you guys are dreaming if you think the end result of mainstream gaming will be what you currently live with Quake. Simply using the game at an acceptable level requires WAY TOO MUCH knowledge in many fields.

Shit on me all you want for doing an essay in adapting and compromise, I still think im learning a shitload more about gaming ( and gamers ) in general while you guys overspecialse yourself in trolling and daydreaming about a world where every single joesmho wants his game to be open like linux....

Basically, you guys either need to accept to keep Quake on life support again for X years, or accept a substential "consolisation" of the series if you ever want the numbers to grow. Thats my current point of view on the series and gaming in general.

You misunderstand my position as one that was promoting Quake instead of PC gaming. I agree completely with your points on the future of Quake, and in no way defend the way this community is handling it. As a platform, I would say PC is far better than console.

i dont really like halo 2 or 3 myself (halo 1 was alright tho) however with as many people who play it as there is, theres no doubt there would be very strong competition. i dont think elitism is the reason the quake community is so small but the fact that it really is harder to play than other games and with so few people, its hard for newer players to play people at their skill level compared to something like halo 3 with its matchmaking (a hugely important thing which seriously needs to be in the next good dm game or quake live).

with that said. having a website that provides coverage of events and shit very well like mlg does (example: i got on there and theres a livestream right on the main page), not to mention theres lots of prize money, spectators, competitors, etc. something that i doubt will ever happen in quake again unless there is some serious turnaround in the amount of players and quake live becomes more successful than wow.

alright enough ranting now

Oh well,

as stated before in this thread, I try to bring the less bias possible into my opinions, so here goes ::

It seems like even the money from ads and sponsors like Dr Pepper could not help the quality of MLG Meadowlands event`s video stream after all.

They even had the nerve to logo it "the broadcast that changed everything".

Although they seemed generally more professionnal than what ive seen in the past ( WSVG/CPL ) in terms of presentation, the technology behind it was still shitty....laggy , out of sync and suffered from the same 4 ads all tourney. .

i dont understand why gaming events insist on live broadcasting rather than being 10-15 mins off air but with quality streams...it just beats me.

And for the record, those stating the mlg forums are a gestapo well its bullshit...there are many hate threads on their forum and i dont see how harsh someone needs to be to earn a ban considering what ive read so far :)

Its very hard to understand why we as gamers / spectators get a better picture of what needs to be done than the actual people behind the scenes, frightening to say the least....

eehm its been said few times but just to state it again.
i think what most people mean with halo being easyer is that halo is waaay easyer to get into than quake series.
i played halo 3 for the 1st time like 3 weeks ago vs some friends.. within few hours i understood most of the game and was an avarage player. friends playing any kind of quake game vs me get totally raped and still get totally raped after a few hours.. still get raped after a week... and quit after 2 weeks :)

ofc there will always be people with insane reactions and good strats in both games, but imo quake series got more depth than halo

Your right halo is easyer to get into than quake. No body with a right mind will deny that. But that doesnt mean that its way easyer to perform competitions wise. Most of the quake players still playing the game today are guys with mid to high level of skills and in halo you have everything simply because the game is newer and more accessible to anyone. Dont forget also that there is more casual gamers on the console than on the pc. Thats why its easy to become a decent halo player withing few hours. The thing that is magic in halo is the skill level. You have a rank (rank goes up as you win) and you have a skill level that goes up or down depending on your win/lost ratio and your k/d ratio. I have been playing halo for abour 2months now (im a quake player and never played console games except old GTAs here and there) and i reached a skill level of 39 in match making. Its like random pubbing. Now that the MLG playlist is out, its more of the competitive players that play it and trust me getting avreage is far from easy. I have a skill level of 19 in the mlg playlist and i cant go past level 20... even against skill level 10-20 i cant win half of my games and i get most likely get out gunned most of the time. Hell there is 50 fkn skill levels... Its just harder to play against ppl in the mlg playlist than random match making with noob guns and items...

I invite you to take a look on how sick stat tracking is in this game... It remembers everthing that happened in every games i have played... It registered so many things.... even where i died in every maps
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Halo3/Default.aspx?player=omgwtfm8

freelance i've been reading this over and over and through the past couple days. I am NOT an elitist guy as you already know but halo has depth sure as much as quake? Well your speaking about two different types of shooters. Tactically speaking, I would say quake but given the nature of halo its hard to choose esp since you have 2 weapons and you have to actually CAREFULLY choose which weapons and choices for the correct situation and position you are playing. The same as quake, really, just more weapons in your arsenal. Do you need to strategize in both games DEFINETLY. I could easily compare halo teamplay wise to quake tdm or ctf in a heartbeat as they both require an indepth amount of teamplay and communication. Honestly I love halo and quake just as equal because they are DIFFERENT in their own rights. Before playing quake I played cs and before cs I played halo :)))))) but now that i have a 360 i'll be getting back into halo and playin quake the best of BOTH worlds. Give halo a bit more time and it will probably be on the same playing field as quake. Given halo has had 3 installments quake has had what 5? thats including the differences between quakeworld and netquake and NOT counting CPMA gameplay.

Halo will be on the same level as quake just I think they have the base going for them atm realistically. Gaming PC=more expensive than a 360+hdtv. sides can anyone name a good game that has been worth playing on the pc in the past 3-4 years besides COD4, Quake 4? Probably not.

Halo 3 at high levels is very comparable to Quake at high levels

You use a controller, end of story.

I think he meant it as special olympics is very comparable to olympic games at high levels

how can anybody accept a gamepad for a FPS game?
it's like playing Street Fighter with a mobile phone numeric pad

Halo is to FPS games like Smash Bros is to fighting games: fun for the masses, but still retarded.

smash bros rules!

I'd like too say gj Freelance for bringing this all so nice and calmly.

What I have too say about this topic, replying too the posts and not really if or if not Halo is a good game (in whatever way).

The game is so popular because it's the game of todays kids. Quake was the game for us (kinda you guys because when I started playing games q3 was already old school) people played it a lot the community was active people discovered loads of things to get better or to do something better etc etc. The same is happening for Halo only with the 'next'-generation of gamers. My lil brother totally dislikes quake (1,2,3 and 4) but he loves Xbox360. For me it's the other way round, I really enjoy quake 3,4. The reason for this is that people just like A and it's only natural that people stick with A because if they go B it's all new and unfamilar. This 'feeling' (if you either have it concious or unconcious) is a feeling people rather don't have. (It's in the nature of people too not change something they like, or even try something else they way they tried the thing they liked before) People want improvement, improvement on what they already have or else it's no go!

Arcade games are the best anyway!

I referred to what you said earlier, maybe in a wrong way when i said most Quakers are afraid to make the switch to another game/platform....

but i think comfort in one`s abilities has a lot to do with it. It all chains up with the ego Quake helps create and how substantially harder it is to get recognition in a vastly larger pool of people.

There`s no denying pretty much everyone in this community is of competitive nature. Otherwise we wouldnt have an entire website based on hierarchies and stuff like ESR betting and + threads....

it may be seen as a completment to a whole, it remains one of the definitive factors...comfort that is :)

Believe me its hard to suddenly suck at games hahaha , damn mlg kids are kinda hard to beat , but im getting closer everyday.

if you lose 8 / 10 games when you just picked up the game... then that tells us a lot about the skill in the game...
The real good players have been playing halo since... well probably since halo1 (dunno when that came out though). They should be able to beat you (10/10) in the first 6 months easy.
And then theres the keyboard + mouse vs joypad. Since most xboxers will have a joypad... if you got a mouse you'll win from someone equally skilled who has a joypad.

That's where console FPS are atm... and imo it's not that interresting yet.
For the future though It kinda depends which games will be for the pc etc what will hapen. Since it's become posible to input a mouse + kb on your console, the aim assistent can go off etc ;) (dunno if that's on in online play though ;pp) Which will make the games more fun...
But the thing is I don't see myself sitting behing my tv being all stressed out because I have to win a game! Where I can see me do this behind a pc. (And I guess this applies to more people, even lil kids :P)

I obviously havent played any veteran in my first days either, thats the way matchmaking works.


It goes so far beyond the mere input....

its a shame you guys dont see further than that.

because using a joypad means taking away a lot of skill (bringing slowness, triggerbot, etc), it almost only remains knowledge of the game (maps layout, items control, damages, etc) to the gameplay, so now wonder you get owned at the beginning : almost nothing from your "uberskills" you got playing quake will help you win games in halo ("your wrong the headshotz don't work wiz the boat ! omgomgomgomg". yeah ok. please..)

"most Quakers are afraid to make the switch to another game/platform"
afraid ? lolwut ?
when players stick to a game it's mostly because nothing good has been released since, simple as that
stop the bullshit pls
moreover basically nobody gives a fuck about graphics in mp games, so they can last ; why do you think cs is 2 times more played than css even if it got a "8 years old ugly engine" ? because only gameplay count.

hf with halo
just remember it's successful on console because there is no other choice on this platform

if you lose 8 / 10 games when you just picked up the game... then that tells us a lot about the skill in the game...
The real good players have been playing halo since... well probably since halo1 (dunno when that came out though). They should be able to beat you (10/10) in the first 6 months easy.

The nice thing is that halo has a skill level system. Its not a rank its a skill level and when your match making, it matches you with the same skill level as yours. So basicly loosing 8/10 when you play ppl close to your skill levels proves that its not as easy as many thinks...

k I didn't know that ;)

How do they calculate your skill level without ranking stuff?

Your experience goes up one point when you win a game. Skill level depends on how good you did ingame k/d wise, objective wise and if you got the MVP or not. Ranks are basicly a combination of the experience you have (total winnings) your your skill level. There is a chart that lets you see how ranks are attributed. http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Halo3/RankHistory...r=omgwtfm8
I dont know the exact mecanism in the skill level but if you do well in a game, even if you lost, but it was vs high skill level your skill will go up and the opposite works also. Personnaly i dont give a sh*t about my rank. I just want to get a good skill level to play better players.

So it's ranking?

Well, like any other tried tested and true matchmaking algorithms, there are ways to bias the results.

Quitters, people who manage to find ways to circumvent the proposed ranking algorithms etc

But honestly in the end, its safe to assume at least half your games in a day will be played vs similarly skilled opponents.

On a very synopsised analysis, there are 2 ranking methods in halo.
One goes up no matter how skilled you are, thats your grade, its based purely on exp and will eventually top out after you played x thousand games.

The other rank is unique to each gameplay type and goes up only when winning or performing well vs higher skilled people. This is in my opinion a better representation of the actual skill level of a player, but can also be cheated obviously.

So back to the original assumption, losing 8 games outta 10 at any given level does actually mean people are fairly good at halo in general at this point.

I sincerly hope Quake live will benificiate from such a matchmaking system, but I also fear it will be obsolete very fast due to the very low amount of people using it. Qlive may actually require a matchmaking algorithm based on its own demographic, which probably makes the tast twice as hard for the devs since they are using smaller samples.

I wasn't asking about that. I was simply implying that it's stupid to say that it's based on skill when it's clearly based on ranking. A stupid way of marketing the game to people less obvious of this. This is a boot in num3s' ass, not yours. =P

to be honest the game doesn't seem that bad
it's certainly more interesting than CS

so.. if a game as shitty and simple as CS can be played competitively.. why not Halo?

that's what i've been saying the whole time!!!

i wouldn't play 1st person game with a gamepad and i wouldn't play 3rd person game with m+k.

also, i tried watching some people play halo (?) once and won't do it again. this was funny though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KicJSFEgB_U

That was awsome! Goes into my youtube favourites. Thanks! =)

More funny stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmztxofZA9c should be watched before this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ulqp-NlnA

The best thing to ever come out of Halo is Red vs Blue.
Every little conversation in Season 1 episode 2 is worthy as a quote.

Private 1: "I thing it looks more like a puma."
Sarge: "What in sams hell is a puma?"
Private 2: "You mean like the shoe company?"
P1: "No, like a puma. It's a big cat... like a lion."
S: "You're making that up."
P1: "I'm telling you, it's a real animal!"
S: "Simmons, I wan't you to poison Griffs next meal."
P2: "Yes sir!

Hilarious stuff...

http://www.wegame.com/watch/Crazy_halo_3_betrayal_1_in_a_million/

that was some nice environment interaction right there along with: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KicJSFEgB_U (i see it's already posted)