I had the same story with DA. Ridiculous lift-off distance plus very poor tracking at 450 dpi made me to look for better mouse. Now I'm completely satisfied with A4Tech X710-FS. It is pure gold, although shape could be better.

most promising shape I've seen, coming from the IE 3.0/D.A. preference, is that ikari optical. I think the shape of that thing looks quite promising..

And specifications are quite good too. It looks like it was made by people which have a clue. Unfortunately I will allow myself to buy another mouse only after my DB, DA, WMO 1.1a, IE 3 and X710 will be broken... :(

Hehehe. Did I really tell that? Since then, I bought:

A4Tech X-705FS
A4Tech XL-730K
A4Tech X-748K - my beloved one
A4Tech XL-740K


At least, no more dollars were spent on Razer junk. :)

what's so good about that A4Tech X-748K ?

ADNS-3080

why not just get an mx518?

Being there, done that. Me and her did not match each other well...

so it's not a sensor thing but a shape thing you imprecise russian.

No, it was a sensor thing. For some reason it had worse tracking then X-748K.

how would u compare it with DA, other then what u already mentioned. maybe a small review?
coz i was looking for a DA (3.0) shaped mouse with more buttons.

Tracking: very fast, around 2.7 M/s in 1600 DPI mode and around 4 M/s in 400 DPI mode. Lag free, acceleration of 15G is kinda enough.

Prediction: present, cannot be removed. After extensive using of MS IME 3.0 one could really feel it.

Shape: a bit lower then DA and a bit more narrow. No such a big hump on the back as DA has.

Material: texturized plastic which reminds of black WMO 1.1a plactic. Feels fantastic If you have sweating hands, unlike DA and IME 3.0.

Wire: quite thick, but flexible.

Scrollwheel: reminds one from WMO 1.1a by its feel.

Build quality: average (poor?) Big buttons are shaking when you shake mouse in air. Because of this, mouse click feels not as pleasant as with DA. This problem is typical for all mice in the familiy, including XL-740K. Also, after 3 months of use shiny plastic under buttons started cracking, although I was very carefull with this mouse. Hope that I just had bad batch.

Oscar: fantastic feature. If all mice were configured as easy as this one...

heh, u didn’t quite sell it:)
it being smaller isn't that appealing to me tbh, i would rather go for different x7 then, a bigger one. (I am fully satisfied with mx/kone shape).
Plus the pure quality as u say :\

Dunno now

I did not tried to sell it. I'm no paid by A4Tech, so why bother? I just told you my impressions on the mouse.

This mouse is quite good performer - but not ideal.

didnt mean that. just that when u said "my beloved one", was hoping for more:|

It is quite good from POV of tracking and handling... The only problem is average build quality.

and the other a4 u had?
did u maybe have 710?

thing is nobody is holding them in croatia anymore so cant test them out.

Yes, I have 710 too. Somewhere. Anyway, was unable to be accustomed to their specific shape, so traded it very fast for other A4Tech mice...

It has ADNS-3060 sensor, so it is quite decent performer. Prediction is enabled. Never measured it's speed, though I remember there were no lags.

bah, dont think i'll risk with ordering one blindly.
maybe i'll just go and buy the DA again, maybe this time the mac one (white leds, lunar smth)
it says its pc compatible to. prolly the same thing as the normal DA..anyone know?

yes, go for it.

I've heard alot of bad things about the ikari Optical.

Stick with an IE 3.0, best bet imo.

Only negative I've heard really is the liftoff distance. That alone is enough to make me rethink it though

DA>>>>>Ikari

i received ikari (optical) but i was so angry that i gave it to my brother :)

ikari optical and laser lift-off distances

http://www.fragyou.net/2007/11/29/lift-distan...i-optical/

marketing bullshit.

my DA has less then 2mm lift off distance and it uses a low light source (infrared)

Low light source? Is the energy of the light low just because you can't see it?

Low-Light-Source going by whats said about the ikari in that article. says they have high lift off distance because they choose to use a low light source instead of a high one.

It is a low source of light.

You are reaching to far into the meaning of that phrase my friend.

High lift off is because of a large amount of power in the light source, which in turn gives better tracking. Having a high powered lightsource is a big part of what gives the DA it's excellent speed before it gets negative acceleration. It is also why quite a few players complain about the high lift-off distance.

Laser lift off distance is because the light is so focused and they limit the power for eye safety reasons. However this gives bad max speed which makes laser unsuited for most medium sens players and pretty much all low sensitivty players.

time after time its been said to stick to ms wmo 1.1a or ie 3.0 yet noone believes it until they get caught out themselves

Great deal of time and experience is needed to understand this.

Like in my case. :)

Hm my copperhead is starting to die after 2 years of beating it down, and i was looking to buy a D.A. but now i'm rethinking....although my copperhead has pretty much same mouse engine and i don't notice any of this so...

only if you have the "3g" sensor. Also, really the movement isn't bad. I can still do my defrag maps in CPM and Warsow, but the button click is slow to register by about a half second or so. Noticeably slower than the 3.0, even at 125hz.

I dont play any quake games atm but i am also noticing this button lag now that you mention it.

it happens all the fucking time in COD4. Ill be using the sniper rifle and I have a guy dead in my sights and pull the trigger. he winds up killing me before the shot fires and the shot takes like half a second to fire.

You say you dont notice this with the MS 3.0 right? i might have to order one soon.

Have you done any tests like comparing reaction time test values on a DA vs another mouse? I use a DA without the crappy razer drivers and it's really good.

Well, really I've had this thing for awhile now, I didn't just give up right away, but no settings or updates or drivers ever helped fix the issue.
It's possible that this is a hardware, rather than a software issue, but I'd think that it would not be so apparent as it is when the drivers are not installed. Keep in mind, I've not done a registry clean or anything, just removing from the control panel 'add/remove programs' list..
Trust me, if there is a way to get that button register as fast as the 3.0 (instant, as far as my human mind can tell) then I'm all for it. I'd hate to think I'd wasted money on this mouse and the mousefeet for nothing.

Yeah I use a copperhead without the razer drivers and its been flawless up until recently when the wiring inside started gettin fkd up and disconnected. But pushing it in and taping it like you suggested helped it for a time, tho its starting to temporarily freeze again. So you like your D.A.? I really like the shape of it and I've been very satisfied with razer so far, so I'm gonna try it.

Well I like pretty much everything about the DA but I just did a quick side by side reaction time test to check what focus said and my DA times were 20 ms slower. I thought I was just slowing down with age but my MX500 gave me a 160ms average with very low variance while the DA gave around 180ms with higher variance so focus may be right.

Edit: bleh just spent a while playing with the MX500 and it's definitely quicker but the negative accel is horrid. What is so hard for peripheral makers to get right? 20ms isn't just bad it's fucking awful but so is all the negative accel BS.

:((

Where is this reaction test you speak of...I also use a DA, but own an IE3.0 and would like to test side by side.

My rail isn't great to begin with, but it's never felt quite right. If it's the answer, that's great :)

http://www.gamefudge.com/Reaction-Time-Trainer

I believe part of the problem is the buttons and how the finger touches the button. With DA the button is large and slow to press down since your finger is almost flat on it. On the MX518 you have only the tip of your finger on the button. I get pretty much the same results with both DA and MX518 with aprox 195ms with around 185ms on the big dot (about average score). My scores were also quite a bit more consistent with the DA. Should be noted that I use microswitches with higher resistance than the original ones (about same resistance as side button switches), but I doubt there is any electronic lag added. Could be mechanical though, as I do get off more clicks per second with the MX518 thanks to the shorter click distance and more solid click rebound.

The correct way to test hardware latency would be to have the computer send a electrical signal to one of the micro-switches (would only need to terminate the correct pins on the switchboard) and time the value from when it sends the termination signal until it registers a mouse click. Doing it on a response test that measures the users abilitiy to react fast with the mouseshape in question as well as the electronics doesn't give a definite awnser.

Yep, I think it's about the button shape, it makes no sense for there to be meaningful lag in an electrical switch. MX500 consistency:
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/9312/11608...160tp1.jpg

Tested a little more and by pushing the primary mouse button slightly behind the wheel I managed to lower my reaction time with the DA about 10ms (aprox 185 average). It should be noted that lowering res so the circle isn't a tiny dot on my monitor shaves another 15ms off my reaction time (aprox 170 average). It pretty much comes down to human error and grip for the reaction time tests.

guess you got bad luck

No, long fingers. =) DA's fine if you press in the middle of the button but the upturn at the end slows it down if that's where your fingers rest on the mouse.

k, thought you meant some inbuilt lag.

i don't use the drivers either. I only used them to install the latest firmware, still notice button lag. haven't tried another mouse though.

well, I can only say that it's the only mouse I have that does it. I have the Logitech G5 (which I use at the office) and it doesn't have that button lag, nor do the I.E. 3.0 or MX518 I've tested, all on the same computer.
The easiest way to notice it, as I keep mentioning, is railing in Q3 cpm or in Q4. I can see how it would be hard to notice or assume human error if you don't have a handy basis of comparison, but I'm a human railbot normally, but I'm nerfed into an average player with the D.A. in instagib.

my da runs very good. that stair step effect in paint is caused by adjusting the windows sensitivity. you should never change the windows sensitivity, very bad for gaming. leave it at 6.

i experience the staircase effect and i use 6/11 windows sensitivity.

Does anyone know for sure where the stair step effect, you're implying from the smoothing stuff Ikari went on about I guess, occurs? Is it in the driver or the mouse itself? Would running a normal gaming mouse with an Ikari driver avoid it?

just ordered an MS IME 3.0 off newegg. they got them for $25.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826105188

question for focus because i know he used to use the 3.0 alot: did you overclock the usb port when using your 3.0? and did it make a big difference in input lag?

25.99 what?

Overclock the usb port, it does make a difference in input lag but not a massive difference (1/125 of a second max compared to 1/500 of a sec max, theoretically). You can get some negative accel if you use low sens and dont overclock.

$25.99 usd, my fault for not being specific hehe.

I've only used it at 500hz. I personally can tell if it's not running at that, and is running at default (125hz), and I go change it and hop back in game.

What are you using to change your sampling rate? I used some shit back in the day, but I've been using mouse drivers long enough to have forgotten what's most useful.

I'm at work so i don't have time to hunt down the link, but I'm pretty sure either myself or someone else has a link to the one I use in Jamerio's "Useful" thread.

the name of the usb clock program that only overclocks the port which has the mouse plugged into it is called, Hidusbf.

link to it is in the mousescore2007 article here

its in the 1st page of the article on the bottom, right before user comments.

Awesome...my searches weren't finding it. Thanks!!!

guys what's the problem with installing drivers?

well some people report that using drivers causes the mouse to have a bit of input lag thats really noticeable.

no lag here

specs? and OS?

1000hz 450dpi on XP for awhile and recently switched to vista

latest drviers/firmware

also used the max dpi (1800 i think?) for awhile but I like the feel of 450

btw what is this "stair effect" you're talking about? do you have the latest firmware (1.27) installed?

it's a side effect of the auto-correction on the mouse tracking.

This was drawn in Paint with the MS IE 3.0

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6333/ie30rz4.jpg

This was drawn in Paint with the Razer DA

http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rzrdano5.jpg

so the 3.0 has absolutely no prediction or is it like a really small ammount of prediction?

I don't think it has any. I could be wrong. I do know that it's never affected my aim negatively.

Latest firmware is 1.27 install it if it's not the "factory default" (most likely factury default is the 1.25, if you haven't check it through the firmware updateter or drivers, you should update)

Then might try stopping the drivers from booting up with program like Autoruns (microsoft program) as the drivers adds horribl latency to the mouse. (Feels like having it 30ms slowers then intended etc)

If you've put on some hyperglidz (mouse feet) and put them on, and NOT removed the original mousefeet, that makes skipping occure on ALOT of pads. The DA needs to be as close as possible to the surface else it won't read correctly.

So do the following things if you are going to put new mousefeet on them:
1) Removing the original feet
2) Washing the socket more or less clean with alcohol (the with pad comming with moust mousfeet) and wait for it to dry
3) Apply the new mousefeet into the socket and wait 1 min or more before using your mouse (else the feet might not stick good enough)

I've correctly installed the mousefeet, and did of course remove the originals.
Concerning the firmware, I had 1.21 I think, originally. I've had this D.A. for nearly a year, I just haven't used it much because of that latency.

Now that I've updated to 1.25, and then to 1.27 (which it is showing in the tray icon as being 1.27 on the fw), I'll try removing the drivers to see if that helps the latency.
Thanks for the post

should have never gave it a chance in the 1st place.

Well it depends on how you do it :) have used it on a icepad v2. black now for 7 months without any problem.

what a surprise! shitty razer mice dont work

i never had any problems with my da..

then again i dont beat my hardware like most gamers do

Same here i have no idea where all this is coming from.
www.ffs.dk/db-tracking-func.JPG

This is my DA tracking, and it does wonderful, no skipping, no high-lift distance or any problems what so ever. There is one negative thing about it, and thats the slippery sides so i applied some mousegrip to that and it works like a charm.

either we got lucky or these guys are nubs!

tried the salmosa and the da, the salmosa was squeeky and just felt really cheap...didnt really have any probs with it other than that

the da felt pretty nice, liked the feel of m1 and m2, and the scroll felt nice...just wasn't the right shape...was fun to try though:)

UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM HALLLOHHHHHHHHHHH check Razers website for the new firmware the REMOVES PREDICTION. i have been using an intellimouse 1 and deathadder on and off until this update came out. intellimouse because of persicion and deathadder because of its great clipless tracking. Razer totally answered the woes of countless gamers when they released this. i use it for CS and HS are much easier. can only imagine what it will do for railguns in quake. hope this helps...