"The only player who impressed me was Cyrus 'proZaC' Malekani, who, as far as I know, barely plays and yet almost beat Sebastian 'Spart1e' Siira and Andreas 'ArrW' Ihrfors. He is obviously more talented than us other participants put together, and still he chooses to focus on more important things"



for that sentence u just become my swedish idol <3

also please give the shaft a break, vq3 has always been all shaft and this has nothing to deal with cpma.

ye right

he meant on LAN so he's actually right.
also, it looks like LG is more important now because back in the early q3 days, most players didnt know this weapon is so usefull.

Exactly, in fact if you look at cooller the guy is a total shaft WHORE, he's really clever and has nice aim with all the weapons but he engineers situations so that he can get the jump on players with his shaft.

As everyone knows the Russian scene (especially in Moscow) had a heavy local LAN element to it.

Also check out the Swedish players/teams, they've been shaft whoring it up for years, sure aim has improved slightly recently but wasn't ArrW aiming shit hot in OSP the other year too? Sweden the country famed in the Quake scene for it's super low ping national scene.

Also I'd like to add that I think players are having to improve their dodging more than they have before, which can only be a good thing.

stealing my [+] eh? :)

Shared

:shakehands:

Hm, you got some points in your post. Though with vq3 as it is today moving forward, back, left, right, doesn't do much when your up against a good shafter.

That's what CPM was for.

That goes for cpm also.

so the cripple effect is just imagination?

There's other things in cpma:vq3, and they suck equally much in cpm.

agreed, watch this 'famous' demo from 2002

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1212207

Fat's LG aim is just horrible, if it is due to osp then omg what a shitty mod. mediocre modern players would have outaimed him badly this game.

you fkin ass lickah

i would say dodging is a lot harder thx2cripple effect - in an open battle with shafts there isn't a huge amount of dodging you can actually do vs a player who can aim.

Yeah but it's forcing people to maximise their dodging abilities which was my point :)

innit

Really? I remember Hakeem winning the q3test CPL event playing shaft-only most of the time. Is that early enough for you? :)

learn to read, i said most players, not all.
just think about it - it takes time understand a game deeply. back in 99/00 a lot of (noob type) people were claiming LG is stupid and useless weapon. they changed their minds soon enough and about 4 years before cpma vq3.

Shaft was nerfed between then and retail but you're right about Hakeem, he 24/7ed his LG before the event.

also 10 years ago mouses were shit compared to nowaday

Didn't stop zero4!

Ok, wasn't 10 years ago, but his mouse was that old!

No kidding. I have stats dumps from OSP on LAN in 2003 when I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with gauntlet and still 30% shaft no problem. Internet on the other hand...

lol? lg is broken in cpm, end of story.

Well, lets look at competitive games right now.

Counter Strike - Yes, easy to watch
Starcraft - No, you HAVE to play the game
Quake - Harder then CS, Quake 3 easy to spec, Quake 4 a bit too fast
WC3 - No, ESPECIALLY DOTA
WoW - ARE YOU KIDDING ME LOL
UT - More complicated then Quake, difficult to spec.

starcraft/wc3 : u watch some unites, u more or less see what is hiting what even if u don't understand
wow : 10 million people is enough to not care about people who don't understand
UT : still exist ? ok, didn't know.

CS is quite hard I think. Too many players, no visible projectiles, no hitsounds. SC is easy IMO, WC3 is a bit harder since the specs has to know the heroes, and magic classes may not be that easily understood..

nah, more than enough people understand how AK's and the like work to make CS a spectable (louzl) game. besides just follow the bomb carrier

not at all. especially if you see mapview with teams and tactics. if cs match are covered properly it's more fun to watch than q3 for someone who's not a q3 player.

Shoutcasting a game of Q3 is as easy as "GREAT RAIL"

"GREAT PREDICTION RAIL"
"GREAT PREDICTION ROCKET"

"NICE RAIL"
"NICE ROCKET"

man, djwheat, JAY I'm coming to get you!

You obviously have never watched Tasteless shoutcast StarCraft.

the point is still valid, you have to play the game, or be taken by the hand by someone who plays it, to get what's going on

anyway imo spectating rts is crappy cause you don't get to see the players actions (I mean something like "ho a building poped out here at a moment, I had no idea the player was actually moving his cursor in this area", this kind of stuff). really rts arn't spectator friendly unless you're yourself an experienced player

it doesnt make sense to spectate a starcraft player, you would see more of the game when you just spec whats happening from a spectator pov

I didn't mean following the pov of a player -which could anyway be and interesting choice-, but the possibility to at least see his mouse arrow and its related actions, and maybe have a stuffs like e.g. a menu reminding who build what and when, and whatever other obvious things like that
I'm not into rts and it could have changed since the last time I've spectated one, but I believe the spectator part could be eeaaasily improved on most of these games

anyway it's the same story again and again :
-some say irrelevant or plain stupid things like "put more money" (ye ? well.. where how who ? spectators doesn't grow in trees, and shits) or "let's promote guitar hero, it's the futur for mainstream™ esport (which is ofc obvious bs, and moreover been tested and failed hard), etc
-some keep common sense : start improving the GTVs platforms ; e.g. if QL is easy to download/instal, and spectate a match of high killed players is easy to spot/find from the front page of QL's site and just requier one click to get in ==> omg it's a win
simple as that

problem is : this industry utterly lacks of common sense ; at this point it's almost scary, and for sure definitely disappointing and annoying

I have to reply in order to see the plus symbol. Is this another ESR bug, or a rule that I am missing?

can't reply you, InDepther - Comment #70, cause the site is brokened

So you really haven't watched Tasteless' casts. From time to time, they show clips from the players POV, but most of the time its too hectic and too fast for non-players (and hell, even some players) to understand whats going on.

If you want entire games only from the players POV, seach youtube for FPVOD.

Carmac you forgot the all important question of, "So would you rather compete on OSP or CPMA at ESWC?"

fucktard

Correct!

I've watched a few short videos, and the beginning of a couple, but I'm just not interested in SC.

But you are right, I haven't watched any =)

I don't play StarCraft but after watching a couple of matches (with good commentary) I got the basic idea of what's going on and later on I understood the depth and that those units counter those units etc etc.

Even if you don't play the game, it's not that hard to get in to, if you're a gamer that is.

"The fact of the matter is that since Quake Live won't have the same polished netcode as in Q3 CPMA, it might actually be a more suitable and fun game to play"

-_-

CONTRADICTION!

yeah, that statement looks ridiculous to me. Worse netcode = more fun? WTF

because instant hit weapons are overpowered in vq3, and having a worse netcode would balance them a bit with projectile weapons
would be better to balance the weapons for real in a patch bu won't happen, or this patch is called quake live

where have you been the past 6 months ? this is what the xerp and cpma netcode whine is all about

exactly, the problem is not the netcode. So why people blame it? I want to have a "lan like" experience whenever it's possible. And that netcode does that. If the GAME is unbalanced, that's not a netcode's problem (and it would be unbalanced on lan anyway).

hence cq3 (or cnq3, I don't remember which one is the good one)

so why don't people play it? well, maybe because every damn tournament doesn't use it... =\

well then you're another clueless xerp advocate.

xerp is not the point, then well, shut up.

xerp is the point. Moron.

Try again mate, one day you'll be right.

aren't you ini? Didn't I block your brainless ass last time this came up?
You're the same brainless dolt that will never get it.

Your opinion < fox, fooki, fazz and god only knows how many other professional gamers. Lemme guess, you're one of those idiots that keeps comparing it to LAN, when you have less than a tenth the LAN experience of the few that I mentioned (there are plenty others that agree, not getting into that again)

Ok, here goes again. Leaving it up this time, conscience be damned.
Refining the netcode alone is NOT a good thing. You idiots act like updating the netcode is automatically a good thing.
"Changing netcode breaks the weapon balance, it shouldn't be done unless coupled with changing weapon values (knockback, damage, other variables depending on the weapon)."- diabz

This is correct. An analogy I used to explain this to the denser esr'tards is a racecar.
If you up the horsepower of the engine 400 horses, making no adjustment to the drivetrain to handle the increased torque to compensate, then it's a broken system and it's not going to work.
If you can only change the netcode and NOT the damage values then it's much better left alone than tampered with.
a better netcode with no other adjustments is NOT a good thing.

Good netcode + changes > Good netcode > Bad netcode

The thing is, cpma netcode with xerp isn't a massive change from how VQ3 has always been played on LAN.

yes it is.

Wrong.

that analogy is dumb. Raising horse power would be like raising weapon damage, which is NOT what CPMA did. The damage dealt is exactly the same.

A correct analogy would be leaving the car the same, but it just responds to you after let's say, 100ms (ping). So EVERYTHING YOU DO, especially turning, accelerating and breaking would be "lagged" (for the sake of argument, 100ms ping with osp netcode). [Even tough I know the netcode doesn't affect YOUR movement @ q3, but that's not the point, keep following...]

But then comes the beautiful netcode (cpma's), and almost all you do with your race car works instantly, even with 100ms ping. Then well, "all the sudden", you and everyone else with that netcode start to make much better laptimes, especially when you have to pass a car (because now it reacts instantly).

The point is, changing the netcode alone IS a good thing. I mean, It's much better then not changing it. Period. Now, if there are flaws in the game BALANCE, they must be corrected (reduce horse power maybe), or people must learn to deal with them.

It's kinda the same thing as LG or rail before and after optical mice. Should everyone use ball mice because "when they made the game, ball mice couldn't be so precise", or should the GAME be changed? Or just get used to it? I think it's either one of the last two, or both.

"that analogy is dumb. Raising horse power would be like raising weapon damage, which is NOT what CPMA did."

Wow. You missed the whole point. And no, improving one without adjusting the other is not a good thing.

"The point is, changing the netcode alone IS a good thing. I mean, It's much better then not changing it. Period."
Wrong.

Was it broken before? If you're gonna talk about "getting with the times" then stop talking about optimization, because that's not the same thing. If you're gonna say "ball mice blah blah rail" then I'm gonna say FINE, have it your way. Everyone uses Laser mice and TFT LCD's on Vista. There, now it's probably balanced right back out. But we're talking about actual optimization, aren't we? So, was the game broken before, when EVERY EVENLY had to deal with the lag? No. It wasn't. It was part of what you had to learn to overcome, just like everything else in the game.
Now it's all LG. And everyone knows it, and only the exceptionally stubborn are even in denial anymore.

Was it broken before?

This just in: Yes.

So, was the game broken before, when EVERY EVENLY had to deal with the lag?

Yes, yes it was. The broken physics/netcode of OSP/VQ3 gave variable results in ALL situations. If you enjoy dice rolling so much, you'd love WoW.

So, was the game broken before, when EVERY EVENLY had to deal with the lag?

Yeah it was really fun having to be FIVE TIMES AS SKILLED to play with a high ping when others had low ping. That was certainly even gameplay. Especially in a game so heavily biased towards heavy shafting. LG fight, Low ping vs High ping (say 30 vs 60) in OSP this is 9/10 going to be won by the low pinger in CPMA it's more like 6/10.

The accuracy of players hasn't even changed, just the games ability to register that accuracy. That's why LAN has always been pretty much the same as CPMA VQ3 is online now (I'll concede online is a tad more MG/LG/RG biased because it's difficult to get a feel for the projectiles).

Well, these two above me already said what I could say about those things, but maaan, you're incredible, you contradict yourself!

"Everyone uses Laser mice and TFT LCD's on Vista. There, now it's probably balanced right back out."

Right, so following your very nice logic: everyone uses that netcode and xerp. There, now it's probably balanced right back out.

LOL

"The point is, changing the netcode alone IS a good thing. I mean, It's much better then not changing it. Period."
Wrong.

Arguments would be nice, or I can just say "wrong" to you too... ¬¬


"So, was the game broken before, when EVERY EVENLY had to deal with the lag? No. It wasn't."

YES, it was, but not beeing able to be accurate (due to the shitty netcode) made it more difficult to realize it was broken.

the big issue is that xerp isnt just about netcode, it also has a big effect on LAN environments

Well, ok, but xerp is not the point, and even if it was, again, by his logic: "everyone uses it. There, now it's probably balanced right back out."

The point is that logic is completely flawed...

Wrong.

So you believe that players couldnt hit 50% shaft in OSP because they just werent good enough?

Who said they couldn't hit 50% shaft on LAN?
Who said they can now?

The problem is, the top players go from strength to strength in terms of movement, aim, tactics et cetera when they are active and playing, so it's only natural that we have seen a small jump in shaft percentages recently.

CPMA has a small affect on LAN (note to diabz, not no affect) that doesn't drastically change the way the game is played at all.

OBJECTION!

You're an objection to life then.

Hmm, cant get on sk-gaming.com site? ! is it down

works fine for me

"Pro-gaming is a pipe dream"

Yea and that wall paper is bang out of order...

fooKi's real home.

You reckon he has a jump pad to get into his bunkbed?

nah a rocket jump

Plasma climb?

I hope he has "cg_drawdecals" set to 0, otherwise his room will be a fuckin mess!

Tumble Weed.

Well it's all just for fun. More than can be said for you i would say.

you sure do take this 'fun' thing seriously

If it works in South Korea with starcraft...
It can work with Quake in europe

Counter Strike - Hard to watch too many players ect...
Starcraft - Hard to watch too many action...and not verry impressive
WoW - Hahahaha
Quake3/4 - IMO Duel are is the most easy thing to watch in Gaming
UT3 - IMO Duel are is the most easy thing to watch in Gaming
PainkilleR - IMO Duel are is the most easy thing to watch in Gaming
Ut2k4 - So fucking slow and not easy to watch


And Quake is easier too watch than Ut3 PainkilleR...


I think Quake 5 can be THE game... :)


Ps: the money that win Toxic and Fatal1ty...is it a dream too ? :)

Wait and play...when football was created it was only for fun and none could think how it will grow :)

If it works in South Korea with starcraft...
It can work with Quake in europe

Apples and oranges.

Counter Strike - Hard to watch too many players ect...

Tens of thousands of people disagree with you.

Starcraft - Hard to watch too many action...and not verry impressive

STAR Invitational brought in over 1,000,000 unique English speaking viewers (plus the korean audience) and continues to receive tons of hits for the new English GomTV site. You obviously just don't know the game.

Ps: the money that win Toxic and Fatal1ty...is it a dream too ? :)

A dream? You dream of making minimum wage?

Tens of thousands of people disagree with you.
Millions of ppl dont like football =]

STAR Invitational brought in over 1,000,000 unique English speaking viewers (plus the korean audience) and continues to receive tons of hits for the new English GomTV site. You obviously just don't know the game.

I can say same for Quake most of ppl dont know the game...


A dream? You dream of making minimum wage?
Toxic and fatal1ty won a lot more than the "minimum" :)

Millions of ppl dont like football =]

The difference is that millions of people also do.

I can say same for Quake most of ppl dont know the game...

So? You tried to say that Starcraft is hard to watch with too much action... despite the fact that it is doing better than any other game in the world.

Toxic and fatal1ty won a lot more than the "minimum" :)

Fat has had iffy ups and downs, but he is now working on sponsorship alone - enough to get by, but nothing special. Due to the unstable market, and the loss in earnings for Creative , he already has to fear for everything he has worked up. In the end, the bills catch up, and the industry won't support you. Toxic, however, no longer has income at all. Great career choice, that.

Their website states "more than a million unique viewers(visitors)" (visitors!=viewers, why is it in brackets?) but I don't think that's accurate. I don't doubt that attention has been high for their GSI, but one million unique viewers outside of Korea doesn't seem right if you take into account the numbers of TSL for example.

TSL was nice, but it wasn't an authentic Korean tourney with all the big names. Much like Quake, if high level players like Fox are involved, people are mildly interested, but if you have top level player like Cooller or czm, everybody wants to see it.

edit: The viewers/visitors part was to note that this did not mean 1,000,000 viewing the live stream at once, but a 1,000,000 total unique viewers who watch both the live streams and the VODs.

BLASPHEMY

fox is top level

Still never taken first place, so he doesn't deserve such a title.

eswc 2004? cpl italy? every tdm tournament ever?

You're right. People tend to forget he won the deciding map in 2004 and keep saying he's never won anything. I don't get it.

"People" are dumb

I had forgotten ESWC 2004, but CPL Italy wasn't that big of an accomplishment. TDM accomplishment are team efforts, not individual.

at cpl italy he won ahead of players like jibo (winner of cpl sweden and 2nd at cpl finals", killsen and noctis

Jibo is awesome, no doubt about that, but with fox being a "top contender" for so many years, Jibo, k1llsen and especially noctis shouldn't be a problem for him. No offence to those three players, but k1llsen and noctis, at least, are not nearly the same class as fox. Jibo was, but if you ask me that was before CPMA came into the picture. I think he rocked more in OSP.

now I'm curious, how many top level players do you think there are?

Haha, tough question. Im thinking Cooller, Cypher, Av3k, fox, Jibo, czm, maybe fooKi--though we'll have to wait and see how well he does. Those are the established names and then there are players with alot of potential who have yet to prove themselves; noctis, Nike, k1llsen (I know), GUArd, rapha, killmas.

ah ok, I thought you were agreeing with vedic that fox isn't top level, my mistake!

Actually, i do pretty much agree with your list, except for avek. He hasn't shown anything special in q3 as far as I can remember.

Nah, I sort of took q4 into consideration here aswell, which might have been a mistake. Cypher has shown some flashes of brilliance in q3 by beating cooller (and Nike iirc) but I guess Av3k has only placed well in online tournies. Let's see how things work out :>

Jibo is pretty good, but again, how many tourneys has Jibo won? You can't count tourneys where the very top players aren't present.

I'd say fox is a top contender who has always bottled it at that last hurdle (ok so you could argue that doesn't make him a top contender but that's fine with me).

Doesn't "top contender" mean that he places well in just about everything he enters? In that case of course he is.

Fooki is down to earth and he basically states how pro gaming is, end of the day its for fun, theres no long term career within it, your just meant to enjoy the competition and just hope that 1 day (if ever) gaming will go pro competitive. I dont think it ever will, people say when will it be big? well in what terms? gaming consumer wise is huge!


let us remember it took cricket, football, tennis etc 100s of years to come about on a pro circuit.

quake is a real elite game, we can tell to someone to watch. like many sports in the world that you have to get a really impressive skill, but nobodys like to watch.

the key is not in the media, someone has to think in another way to make money for

can't you just fucking play for fun and not modify the game or its community for the sake of earning some $ you greedy bastard ?

;)

You CAN....But isn't it nice when people get paid to do something they love and have fun at (sports for competition can still be fun / still played for fun)?

Money, money, money. Must be funny, in the rich man's world

blahrg
also, as a spectator, I don't mind if the players are payed or not in a way or another, I just hope they don't suck (and it has nothing to do with skill) but provide quality game

You said it yourself, you enjoy watching people playing when they don't suck.

To get to a top level, especially in quake where the game is 10 yrs old and people had 10 years practice, you have to put in a ridiculous amount of time in practicing.

If I, for an example, had to pick up quake 3 now with the purpose of getting to the level of the likes of czm, cooller, fox or whatever, i would have to practice 24/7.

Since you have to work, that's not possible. I mean your house and food don't get paid by theirselves.

So either you quit your job, either you sacrifice the already scarce amount of free time you have.

If you quit your job, you have to get paid by gaming. And that's not possible at the moment, at least not in quake, because if you're not at least top 3 on every single tournament (when there are tournaments) you won't make enough for a living.

And feck, even when winning you still get around minimum wage.

That's just my pov.

so what ? I don't care about the "guys who would like to compet with czm and such players", at all ; I could totally watch the same actual highskill players stay on top for years and not see new blood in LANs until these dino players go do something else of their lifes

moreover it actually doesn't really matter to me if I spect a top of the top high skill of the death's edge match, or "just" a div 2 one ; there are other factors than just skill to entertain my spect pov (and money/fame prize, among a bunch of other factors, is rarely one to bring good things to the show imo)

I think people should be rewarded for efforts, plus cash at stake adds to the spec possibilities...It creates something that people can be interested in - most of the time, you don't get to know the players (though AGP tour may change this), you don't see their reactions or their anguish (except for the shakey-mouse trick).

I don't see why people push so strongly against the "eSport" or "pro gaming" possibility - it turns something that people like into something that they could make a job / career out of...

you don't really need money to do itw or use a cam in a lan
can be achived by fans for nothing
although large video bandwidthes is another story (but so far most "pro" video stream bandwidthes have been full of shit, and anyway p2p stream is the future -actually it should already be standard for live streaming-)

btw you're doing it wrong, it's more like
"I don't see why people push so strongly the "eSport" or "pro gaming" possibility ; it's just games, not finding aids cure" (hohohobvious like a captain, right ?)

Yes, just games - so is pro football, soccer, basketball, motor-racing, films, music.....Should everybody abandon their professions for the common good - sorry, the world does not work that way.

People are more concerned with entertainment until something like that hits close to home.

And yes, the broadcasting can be done cheaply - so go do it if you are tired of seeing "buffering" and lagging. Doesn't mean it will be good though

I'm not against "mainstream going esport" or whatever nerd wannabe pro something's fantasy
I'm mistrustful, see #32

anyway, I'm out of this internet arguing, will go nowhere now I guess, all has been said more or less, would just turn into stubborn shit

I get your point, but face it, most of the top players play for the money, not the fame.

Try to organise an international top Q3 event without cash prize and highly doubt you will get a lot, if any top q3 player.

My point was, although it was maybe not that relevant as an answer to your post, is that if you want the playerbase to grow, you have to put money in it.

But the money won't grow if there's no interest. I think it's a vicious circle, but all in all i repeat, i don't see it happen, at least not with quake games. It's too much of a niche i guess.

For players to grow to a top level, they have to put incredibly stupid amounts of time in it. Who has so much time to put in it? 16yr olds? They'd rather play halo on the xbox i think. Quake 3 is like the stone age for them "zomg look at these crappy gfx, did they program this on a psp?"

that's why I wonder why some want to force quake (or any other leetzorwanking game) to be über successful
it's a niche game, it's nice that way (exept for the total failure of q4 for obvious reasons which I guess id soft will not make again with q5arena. same goes with ut3, this genereation of projectile shooters is a big letdown, but that's not because "the genre is dying" and this kind of bs -anyway that's another story, I get lost a bit here with my train of thoughts)



-inject more money !
-let's do some guitar hero world tour !
-let's dumb our games to reach the masses !

>> not gonna work, just harm

so I'm mistrustful when someone seems to have another one of these "bright ideas"

fine if e.g. intel wants to sponsor some lans, but don't expect more than what it is : just a bunch of hardcore gamers as add's audience, kind of nice for intel since even if we arn't numerous we're the core of gaming and the loudest voices in this community (also companies have to know they can't bring us adds for a bs product cause we would shit on it with our loudvoices as we're nerds aware of what's good and what's crap, but that's ok with intel's cpu at the moment cause c2d are THE BEST -loud voice, see ?)
so, it's interesting for intel, but that's not really the big part of advertising ; sponsoring a lan with niche games isn't as effective as an add in the superbowl's final in order to sell stuff the next few days ; but on the long run it's interesting to gain respect from the core of a community, not in order to directly sell products but to have a good image in the eyes of the hardcore nerds, who'll then do unconscious free advertising (cause geeks like to talk hardware things, so intel is named -"THE BEST atm man, you should buy one, trust me I'm a geek, I know"- and happy, etc)

tl;dr :
companies are interested in gaining respect/interest from hardcore gamers, but they won't inject more money in this than in regular adds
niche games, niche sponsors, niche money pots
fine that way and will only grow/develop slowly
the player base will grow cause video games interest is growing, and then the money injected in this will grow ; if one think the other way around, he shoulda stop coke. you do not inject money in lan in order to make the player base relevantly grow (see PK's failure if you arn't a close friend of captain obvious)

in the end : don't broke games for money, fame, or whatever lousy reason

Not really much to add, i think we're pretty much thinking the same. +

practicing 5 hours a day on a game consistantly isn't pure fun imo, it would get very boring im sure

when something is organized and supported by companys, its turn to be professional, or semi-pro. you bastard have to improve your knowledge in busines.

so, what do these companies get in return ? 200 quakers whining and trolling on the intel add everytime it's aired on the live video stream ?
get real, there is no business to do in here, yet

If how many quake addicts has in the world?(doenst matter). Because most of these players like to use professional equipmments and good desktops. Do you really think that these companies had never think about that? the proppagand is too big. If you see just the 4fun players they already have some good stuff to play. So.. many people in the world like WoW addicts has just a simple stuff to play. Imagine you have a company, you really like to invest money in tournaments? or in proppagand to these players get a good stuff to play? So, i said: we have to think in another way to get support to events and etc.

18:27 CDT - 392 users online

That about sums it up.

only in ESR, imagine how many russians like to play kind of quake.

edit: i remember the last asus cup had a lot of specs and quake players.(if i can remember well)

ESR is quake.

almost

Good interview, seems like a nice guy...

Quite realistic when he says that Quake 3 as a pro-game is a pipe dream...Is Quake in itself popular enough to be supported (suppose QL with numbers and metrics will tell!). And it isn't to everyones taste but I hold out hope!

Except for SC in South Korea, no game has any spectators anywhere, just players who only like to watch their own game. You'll only ever get pro-gaming when there's a game that even people who don't play it enjoy watching. The "my game isn't dumb enough to be popular" attitude is self-glorifying and dumb in itself. Pro-gaming will come when games are controlled by motion-capturing - then people will enjoy watching it and be impressed by the skills.

well quake is defintely better to watch and more exciting as 99% of the sports
i mean soccer boring as shit , tennis i could shoot myself ever more boring etc etc
when someone would spend some amount of money in it , when magazines would start to write about the stars im sure it would get a big fanbase

i mean i never even touched painkiller but i liked to watch it on tv (giga games germany) cause the players where interviewed and the game looked fun although i didnt eveb knew the weapons

now i lost my point na whatever :)

To each their own really - all sports have admirers and despisers...

I don't think motion capturing is a necessity. I think first establishing a critical mass of players enjoying and playing the game day in day out is. Then mouth-to-mouth advertising will kick in and a lot of new people will join the community.

I think that may be true of SC as well but so many people have played SC in Korea that it can pull large audiences.

"The lightning gun is just ridiculous now and it just ruins the game completely in my eyes. "

Sad but true :(

Sad, but fun to use! lol

very very sad true -- but changeball
please arron or any other who can change something lower the lg damage please!!

Interesting quotes from fooKi. Good to see him back for now, as he is a talented gamer.

But I don't agree about everything that he says. I believe that it can be said about every 'sport'. Following a sport event and not knowing the sport is usually a problem and a step to take for a person who wants to follow it. But I have been to plenty events myself, to experience that Quake3 did get most of the attention from spectators. Sometimes even more than Counter-Strike (in the early days). Even Counter-Strike players like to watch Quake3 matches. The matches in Quake are barely boring and the players who compete are good personalities for the 'sport'.

The only type of games which are easy to follow by the so called mainstream public are the games based on existing sports and racing. But then again I rather see football irl than virtually.

Several players, among them myself, have lived solely off gaming ever since graduating school. That is the definition of pro-gaming, making a living off of playing. What fooki refers to, I believe, is a life-long career as a pro-gamer.

Heres there thing, and I don't know if you did college or not, but.. When you finish "pro gaming" and you hit 28.. 30.. 32.. whatever age, and you decide its right to quit the gaming scene and get a job. Are you going to put pro-gamer on your resume as job experience? I don't know if you know, but experience is almost as important as college these days, because it seems everybody has college. So you get a job your lacking 10-12+ years of work experience putting you 10-12 years behind what you COULD be making. Granted, you might get lucky, and get a "in" with your sponsors, or another company that sponsors gamers, but that too is a "pipe dream" and not a very promising one, I would think, because they would probably still pay you at the bottom.

Not to sound rude, or pessimistic, but its kind of a reality.

No offense to you, but..

Let him live his life, I'm sure he knows what he's doing.

It's wrong for someone to tell someone else how to live their life.

You're still 19, so you still have the same mentality that he's talking about. He wasn't telling him how to live his life, he was pointing out a very real and obvious flaw to the idea of trying to make a living off of "pro gaming." Even IF pro gaming ever really took off, you'd probably be dead before it happened, especially for Quake. Better to be realistic and play games for what they were intended for - entertainment.

Look at Fojji, and the money he's gotten, and the potential he has.

He could easily get into any university with prize money. Plus, how do we not know he's in College/University, or has already gotten a diploma/degree?

Plus, he can get on a good sponsored team. With flights + hotel paid for, he pays for food, then wins $10,000.

There's still potential for Quake.

a friend of mine sold his world of warcraft account for 3500 euro, that sounds alot but when he took it out in hours he realized he earned about 1 euro an hour.

what people dont realize is how many hours "pro gamers" put in their "work" compared to other types of living, i do 8 hours a day and then im done to do whatever i want. also, if you live off gaming i think you lose the fun that is when you play for entertainment, dont get me wrong here, i still think they enjoy it to some point. i used to know some top counter strike players and they always complained how they hated the game and that they only did it for the money, this was like in 2006 aswell. imagine what it's like now.

there is nothing better, than enjoying your work. Almost half of your time you will be working. Life is short.

exactly, and i think that a job like "pro gaming" would take away the fun of games. i'd love someone who lives of gaming to reply to this to say otherwise but i highly doubt they enjoy it like they did when they started out playing...

Unfortunately I cannot speak as a pro :) But I do think that it would be like any hobby that you can turn into a job (provided you aren't playing the game just for the paycheck - looking at many Source players with that one).

Many sports players seem to enjoy it - obv. a lot more when you are winning (but even the most casual players will want to win!). Sometimes I supopose you need to be able to turn off the "full-competitive" mode and just be able to have a laugh if gaming with friends / playing other games that are built solely for fun (Mario Party) or playing with kids, etc...

I am also curious to see it from a pros perspective but I suppose it would change from person to person...

He could easily get into any university with prize money. Plus, how do we not know he's in College/University, or has already gotten a diploma/degree?

True, but then how do you pay your bills while going to college? There are far better ways, including loans, scholarships, and grants - if you're at all serious. If you're going to play games to go to school, you might as well donate your body to science for money. It pays better, and they'll take you even if you're homeless.

Plus, he can get on a good sponsored team. With flights + hotel paid for, he pays for food, then wins $10,000.

If he wins first place, and the prize money is actually $10,000 - once, maybe twice a year. Or maybe he chokes, just gets outplayed, etc, and brings home a sad face. At absolute minimum wage at full time, I could pull in over $12,000. No college or even highschool degree required. The average entry level hourly wage of a bachelor's degree graduate is $16/hour (about 3x minimum wage), with benefits.

There's still potential for Quake.

Why do you think the pay has always been such a joke in pro gaming? Real sports pay well for someone who was born tall/large/nimble/etc. Things that you can't really learn or get better at, you just have to be born that way. Anyone can pick up and learn a game, and I'm sure some people learn faster than others, but there is no barrier that practice can't break. While there may be possible potential for professional gaming, it probably won't happen for another 10 years. Even then, the potential will never reach what could be done with education.

Sweden is one of the most advanced countries in the world, with a lot of social oriented policies

he could live on social wellfare for all he cares and gain extra money from gaming.

Quite the accomplishment.

as opposed to yours? well.. YES

Oh, hey guys, I'm the best in the world at this game that nobody plays, and I live on welfare. I smell like cabbage.

your dim analogy makes sense.

it is. Being one of the best at anything nowadays isn't something easy. Not everybody can and it doesn't matter if you practise all day long.

Before 50 years you could be top in many things and it didn't mean shit.

not everyone lives in the us

that's right. African, for example, they don't live in the us.

Meaning what?

he assumes that everything is like in the us, where in sweden (at least) you can change course of work if you get a proper education which you can do at any age.

dumbass, that's why he said it wasn't a long term career

Getting a job is neither only nor the best way to make money.

Btw, at time when fox will leave pro-gaming, it may turn out that he will continue to make money from it, but this time, teaching others to play. :))))

I'm in no rush to spend my life as a drone behind a desk. Why the hell should I quit something I enjoy?

serve the overmind, drone

I might be wrong because I don't really know you but you probably pretty much do the exact thing already it just happens to be something you enjoy doing

True but which would you rather be playing with: excel or Q3 :P

but you do work behind a desk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i still don't get why Q3 isn't considered spectator friendly. it has the best readability and pace for mainstream gaming audiences.
you can understand the game in a 3 minutes presentation tops, so you can follow it with ease..

people say it is confusing because it's fast when it isn't fast enough compared to CPM, QW, PK etc.

when i watch CS/COD4 or whatever.. i instantly get bored because i know most of everything what's going on.. how can people get satisfaction in watching some simple, slow shit that has no secrets or no impressive action to get an insight of?

feels exactly like watching myself play that very same crap game.. there's nothing obviously skillful standing out that i would go about "fuck.. i couldn't do that in a million years, this dude is awesome".

i got into fighting games by watching Daigo parry every hit of Chun Li's super with no life left and make a crazy comeback, not by watching some gaytards exchanging basic punches and kicks in DOA4.

what the fuck?

Agreed. I like watching stuff that actually requires an extreme ammount of skill and that have incredible depth. That's why I enjoy a lot watching SC even though I don't play it and I love watching Q3 top level matches.

There's nothing to do with being simple or not, once you understand the basics of the game you understand the skill it takes.

This SF video is amazing i love it!

totally agree. I watched demos of good Q3 players with ppl that had never played it and they wanted to show them more, some of them even started playing it.

The impress factor in q3 is unmatched by anything.

Besides the discussable fact that most games are way too special to be followed by a non-player audience (the whole thought is absurd imo) I really can't understand how some people expect esports to 'take off' (whatever this means) when I have to register or pay for content (such as streams). Not to mention that very often there is no decent coverage existent or the stream I get is lagging like hell and has a horrible quality. I only see some folks trying to make a fast buck out of what is already given (not the players).

I was under the impression that most games are quite easy to follow - could be made a little easier by broadcasters but that will come with time. The CGS breaks things down to basics just so people can get to grips with it.

Broadcasting in general (quality, etc.) will also get better with time with advancements in technology, an increase in investment, a slightly more business focus (to make the idea sustainable and to be able to invest in it), etc.

RTS I have found difficult to follow but I don't think you need to be a player to follow - same as other sports...If you watch, you get more used to it. I watch CS and CoD without having ever played them and having no problems.

Whenever I look at my bank account I donçt suddenly wake up! So not a dream ÑP. Maybe for most, but there are quite a few that definately earn their living with it.

-- Vo0

vo0's bank account containing a note saying IOU $100,000 - CPL and a spider's web?

You're mean.

some say the reason starcraft became so popular in korea was because it was cheap entertainment in the country and came about at the right time. had it not come about when it did, it's speculated it wouldn't be as popular there or inbuilt into their culture as it is today. i wish i could find the article where i read that :(.

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT FUCK OFF YOU INBRED CUNT &/!&(/"&/!##!&(/36872...33

I don't think that quake3 is particularly hard to watch.

I had a flatmate that was tv sports addicted but had no gaming exp. He started to sit down behind me and watch my ra3 CW. I mean, it was a poor show for sure, since it was only one pow, no comments - at least while I was playing - and no particular skill involved (I was just average). Though he staid there for most of the matches and watched; after some CW he started understanding what was going on and enjoied. He was the kind of guy saying that any sport is fun to watch, once you get into it.

It is not even a problem of speed. Think at the evolution on TV and movies. At the beginning things where slow and sequential. Now things are faster, multiscreen, and most of the people is used to read subtitles as well as the image. And this holds for jung and old people as well. However this evolution took some time.

I believe that mainstream gaming can have a place in a future where people are used to online technology, where the passive TV is repleaced by interactive choice, and where everybody grows up in and environment where videogames are just natural.

At the moment, at least in Europe, videogames are associated with weird geeky kids/nerds playing them. The hope is that one day most of the poeple will be able to associate videogames to their own experience (as they do now with irl sports)...

i know there will be doom4 but does any1 know if there is gona be quake5 lol? ... but tbh if there is gona be doom4 then there is like 1.000.000% that community will produce quake5ish mod :>

ID announced quake5 at qcon 2007?

i thought they said they werent making another quake... iono too long ago

They hired a team specifically for quakelive and q5 lol

ah :p. i only thought quakelive

having been following q3 for years it´s not going anywhere fast.

games are changing and mmorpgs are hooving noob players up so only the old school players are left. why pratice hours on end for a few months when you can earn a lvl 70 character in wow or get into some uber pimp daddy spaceship in eve?

hence games become stale imo

"uber pimp daddy spaceship" that cracked me up :)

Nothing says "Pro-Gaming Expert" like getting your photo taken in Grandmas bathroom.

fewwwwwki <3

You people who devote your lives to this 'pro-gaming eSports' bullshit are pretty funny. I used to be the same way. Luckily I always cared about education and real life, important things. Now I make a very comfortable living having pursued a professional degree. Why can't you people focus on school, make some money, and leave the bullshit games to the 14 year olds? Are you going to be 30 years old and still be jerking off to demos and "pro" events? Wow, let's get serious for a minute.

hi

maybe there is a difference between studying a degree, graduating and working and playing quake3, traveling the world winning challenging competing events.


see? it's about dream, doing for life what you love to do.
it can be put in the same category as : air force one pilote, football professionnal player, fireman, etc...

And because some people like you don't dream of these things that there is more hope for the other.

Yeah

You go tell Tiger Woods to stop palying golf, because it's 'bullshit', and he needs 'a real career'.

Seriously, let people live their dreams, and do what they want. You stick to your 9-5 job, and other people will have been living their dream, perusing what they love.

When I'm 30, I don't want to have any dreams.

A dream is something you want to peruse, but haven't. I want to do what I want.

See, I wouldn't talk shit about Tiger Woods because golf is a time-tested, well-respected REAL sport. He and any other golfers can play golf all day and earn a living doing so for all I care. Golf involves more than just sitting behind a computer all day. I'm not saying it doesn't require talent or skill to be a pro-gamer. What I am saying though is that Quake and all this other bullshit can't be considered a true sport. Just look at the maturity level for the average eSports devotee. Just look at the comments on eSports sites like this and others. Half of the people can barely fucking string together a coherent thought. Maybe if kids stop chasing these bullshit gaming pipe dreams and started hitting the books or doing something productive then everyone would be better off.

Wow! Had a big response penned to this and it got lost in the ESR pipeline :( So, second attempt:

Many people would disagree with you calling Golf a real sport :) - Not me though, I prefer to avoid using the typical "is gaming a sport, well look at Golf and Poker" line! Golf was not always respected and I'm sure people thought the same as you do about gaming - it's just a pipe dream and they should get a real job (same as every other sport in the beginning).

Also, I think people should be less concerned with the label - players don't care if Poker, Soccer, Golf, Bowls, etc are considered sports or not...Why should gamers? The label given doesn't really matter...

Secondly, you speak of the maturity, etc. The typical demographic of gaming is quite young so naturally the maturity level (in most cases) will fall short. The medium that is used (the internet) is also a fault - everyone is given a voice, in many cases it is uncensored...Traditional sports use traditional mediums such as newspapers and TV - feedback is not shown to the public. When you use public forums though, you do see a similar vein at times. Perhaps a little moderation is needed - to keep things in check, etc.

Also, I find it a little ironic that you complain about people not being able to put together a sentence when you use swear words at every opportunity - not exactly a sign of maturity or coherence :D

Gaming may not be productive in the traditional sense but it does provide entertainment, just like other sports, tv, films, etc. In modern times, that is considered productive and is necessary - it provides an outlet for people...I mean, look at how many of us are interested in the scene etc. This site is dedicated to that! Kids should be encouraged to do what they want to do and what they will be happy doing...Some are suited to soccer, some to gaming, some to writing, etc. It doesn't really affect me or you or my neighbour what they do so just leave them off - they are causing no harm.

Just read MLB/NHL/etc. players' lips, wouldn't exactly call their dialog mature.

Poker has more than its share of immature fuckwits too, and they aren't even really filtered.

And look how well you turned - moaning, bitching and attempting to insert leverage to young people. Why would anybody want to become like YOU? Wow, let's get serious here for a minute.

pursue

quite honestly, jerking off to brilliantly executed warcraft 3 strategy makes a whole lot more sense than jerking off to people who dedicate their lives to running hundred meters as fast as possible

DENIED

ya one of them might even be night elf too which is fappable!

or one of them might be Grubby which makes it even more fappable (as long as his gf appears on the camera)

exactly!

Admins didn't approve my pic (WHY??????) or site messing around?

When you get over yourself and your perfectly executed master plan of life, you might realize that you will eventually need a *hobby* to not bore the shit out of yourself in life. I am working with a nice income, and have a two floor apartment.

Does that mean I can't enjoy eSports for ~1 hours a day rather than get fat in front of the TV?

PS: That you are making money after going the standard route, pursuing a degree, as opposed to actually developing something new, or treading new ground, makes you nothing more than a mediocre person.
And, if I might say it, unmanly.
Enjoy your estrogen.

Man you are so right, but he will find out later -- like I did. I was away for 3,5 years playing nothing at all because I thought my dream was to be found inside a university and in the "esoteric exercises" that I put my self through during this time. I later realized that the "gaming" wasn't the problem and wasn't in my way of "doing my thing" (Back then I allways talked down on it).

Acctually the insight I got from trying to live my dream away from gaming and computers, was so revolutionary that I today use gaming as my main exercise for developing myself mentally and emotionally.

The 3,5 years away from it all wasn't unimportant though, and It won't be for fooki either if he decided to put his efforts into studies etc. --- It will "hopefully" bring the insight and understanding that he currently doesn't have.

Everybody needs a hobby in the end, like you say, and playing quake3 isn't too bad at all :)

Interesting. I think gaming has helped me as well, as cheesy as it sounds. eSports is kind of a "rediscovery" of the male competitive psychology.
As well as being damned entertaining..

wtf?

this is obviously the rediscovery of the competitive mal psyche!

Excellent game, I already thought of a winning strategy!

what is it?

Cause from experience I know only one successful strategy, and some friends of mine are three times undefeated champions in this city.

Heh, I figured each drinking 12 bottles at steady pace only slows the team down, so you just grab that crate and run, and start walking at around 2-3 kilometers before finish line because that's pretty much all you need even if you're not super fast drinker. However, I gather this pretty much evades the whole point of such magnificent competition.

well, it really depends on how long the distance is,
but walking is never an option except if it's really 10km!

for example the one here is "only" 3.5 km and a team consists of three drinkers and then you have to jog and drink at the same time the whole way and when the bottles are finished you start running faster.

There are two problems with drinking in the end:
You are out of breath so you can't drink fast anymore and the beer has been shaken the whole time so you can't drink it as fast either. Usually we open most bottles right after the start signal, but then spilling beer can become a problem :)

Ok I get it, the 10km did sound a bit much..

yes it does, running becomes much too important with 10 km.


btw, if you're into drinking games you should try flunkyball!

here's an explanation I found after a short google http://murawasa.blogspot.com/2008/05/flunkyball.html

and a youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDOAcYC0ma4

Does that mean I can't enjoy eSports for ~1 hours a day rather than get fat in front of the TV?

Why is watching someone play a game any better than watching TV?

Did I ever say it was better?

But, since you bring it up; yes, "most people"s entertainment source, TV, is reduced, harmless and simple, to appeal to as many people as possible. Is that a good thing?

Did I ever say it was better?

Does that mean I can't enjoy eSports for ~1 hours a day rather than get fat in front of the TV?

You offered this as a negative alternative to your view point. You also seem to think that you can get fat watching TV, but not with video games.

Is that a good thing?

No, it's an opinion. Games and TV are both equally good forms of entertainment for wasting time.

You offered this as a negative alternative to your view point. You also seem to think that you can get fat watching TV, but not with video games.

wrong. I never said one was more negative than the other (and I didn't need to, to make my point), but, of course, as you seem to have read between the lines, I think it is.

Whatever you say, fatty.

I'm truly sorry that you are still so full of hatred and anger towards the people living their dreams and doing what YOU once did.

The books you read and the education you got, don't seem to have made a change in you "emotionally" -- you are still that angry teen deep down inside :(

Fooki:"Are you not entertained! Are you not entertained! Is this not why you are here!"

*throws his rocket launcher to the sands of the colosseum*

And the crowd goes: "FOOKI! FOOKI! FOOKI \o/ \o/ \o/"

(by zeicon)

"My name is Maximus Fooki Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Fox Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next."

<3

best quote

these euros are gonna be pissed when rapha takes a huge dump on all of them

The shit talking season is officially open!

You're goddamn right it is. The demos from the euro qualies have been pretty lackluster so far. Nothing impressive, to say the most. The American players that many have seen thus far are looking extremely dominant, and that's not even accounting for czm, who hasn't been seen doing much practice on public servers.

can you link me to those dominant demos please?

here we only have the eswc qualifiers :/

are we watching the same demos?

czm is the only american overskilled player.
chance, rapha and zero4 will get raped at eswc masters.

true.

Eastern Europe is still Europe :)

Were you 519's official spokesperson before LA7?

you just stirred up a shitstorm :)

Guitar hero will be the next big competitive game.

N/A

no he doesnt.

Who cares about pro-gaming anyway? If money makes the scene worse, it isn't worth it.

The scene makes the scene worse now. Money just jumpstarted it.

Stupid sexy Fooki.

The problem with 'pro-gaming' is every asshole and their fuckface cousin wants to 'make a living playing video games'. All they aim for is lots of money playing a game they can tolerate. We should be using profits to improve the games... to improve the communities. It's a step-by-step process... but every cocksucking cuntlicking piece of shit just wants to get rich playing video games. It's such bullshit; is it any wonder things got so repulsive?

Thanks for making a lot of sense for once! :D

I just want to point out that when I said that slightly worse netcode would make QLive more fun than vq3 cpma, I had no idea that they were rebalancing the weapons. I thought they would keep the same weapon balance. Obviously the better the netcode, the better the game.

i dont think you should have brought up netcode period. just because the netcode exposes flaws doesnt mean we should use inferior netcode but perhaps maybe fix the problems with the gameplay? thats another problem though, the vq3 community is far to stubborn to even switch to cq3

I think I explained myself poorly. I'm gonna sound modest, but I've never been a real aimer. I get outaimed vs most. When I shaft with xerp on, my aim can compete with the other players' aim. Without xerp and in old osp, aiming becomes more difficult and some players stand out a little more(like for example Zamuz). It becomes more skillful and thus harder for me and others to compete in, like it should be.

Yes the netcode exposes flaws and it should not be blamed for it. However, if there wont be any rebalancing of weapons (which I thought was the case with QLive), i'd prefer if quake was played without xerp (in other words: with worse netcode).

I played quite a few games with spartie before DH. We played with xerp on 0 and the games were much more enjoyable. With xerp on, a lot of top players pretty much ignore RL on maps like dm6. On Pt4 some people rush with the spawnweapon MG (!) at times because they can hit 50%. Shaft,mg and rail is all you need and it is such a shame :). Of course it is a matter of taste and there isn't any right or wrong.

Sadly I can barely play any q3 duels now because it isn't enjoyable at all. I'm slightly nervous because people are predicting that I'm gonna do well at masters and I can barely touch the game. It would suck to disappoint people. On the other hand I wasn't too prepared for dh so it will be interesting to say the least.

ramble ramble

As for the emo attitude in the article, it wasn't my intention. I'm a very happy guy and I'm getting tired of hearing comments like "fooki was born angry". Its just a game, dont forget that ;-]

hah makes more sense now :)

i play cpm and i think everyones been using xerp by default for years now. i never tried games in vq3 with and without it for comparison so i dont really know :). i think still in the end that the vq3 community should just switch to cq3 (note i havent actually played cq3 just read about it) and it would hopefully fix some problems but theres a serious vq3 is flawless mentality (not saying there isnt with cpm either) that keeps it from happening

lol, that whole article screams cheer up emo kid.

Someone mentioned eSports struggling because of poor streaming quality and bad coverage. With QL there's the possibility of easy access to GTV as the updates/patches are browser based.

This could be the way forward :-)

Fooki bump.