hf with Yeltsin.
bye

ye this gonna be epic

hashahq can't wait :)

EPIC

FAIL

NO GAY

never in history of the world
russia BEGAN a war

ermmm...remember winter war ?

Will anyone give me a non-American perspective? I've very interested in world events and mostly I get my non-american news from news sites such as Reuters, BBC News, and some others.

Aquashark, do you want to explain a bit from your point-of-view what the situation is?

From what I understand, South Ossetia won a war to gain their independence from Georgia in 92' but hasn't been formally recognized as an independent nation by the international community. I guess Russia is backing South Ossetia and Georgia has EU/US backing? So it's kind of a proxy war between Russia and western interests?

O my, I love those hungry bastards. :D

looks like they all lol'ing

it's only a small offtopic, but if i read anything except polish news sites (there are quite many, but sometimes, or maybe even often if there are some tragedies, they focus on wrong things), that's usually bbc. i don't have anything against usa, but cnn looks like a total crap :-( often when i open it and see headlines it looks like some gossip site :D btw. i am surprised that we don't get that much photos/videos from the 'battlefield', maybe it's just 'too hot' right now

and about that whole thing... maybe russia pretends that georgia is 'a bandit'/agressor and it can be a step back in their way to nato and european union. situation is kinda complicated, so i cannot definitely decide who is right, without any deep knowledge, but atm i would rather support georgia

they are recalling half of their contingent from iraq but it's nothing against such a powerful country like russia (enough for ossetia though)and i think (and hope) this conflict will end up soon. they also asked americans for their help but i think that might lead to a quite bad things... (if both russia and the usa involve)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhhyZjNApBg&watch_response

A little biased towards Russia information, but it will give you a bigger view...

Son living in US u must know that the bad guy is always russia. I have learn it by now.

Citation: Hollywood movies

You sound like you'd fit right in in Hollywood...

They're looking the other way, quick invade! China must be absolutely pissed about this, it's diverting lots of the news coverage away from their silly ceremony.

I bet no one in China even knows about it behind that giant firewall :-P

Georgia-who????

I hear Putin was at the opening ceremony. Somewhere around the middle he must've ordered the attack, cause you can only see so much epic gay crap before you really want to start blowing shit up.

Cool picture. Looks like something the Wachowski Brothers would do...

socialism racer?

I'd go see it.

not worth a plus son

maybe all the red flags got him thinking about the glory days?

Heh thought the choreography was amazing - granted the athletes parade is always shit !!

Putin isn't the president of Russia anyways, good one though :) [+]

not the president but evidently still very influencial for a prime minister

http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373270

Yeah, so what is going on out there? It seems like even CNN is all "i dunno if they're at war or not what's going on with these missiles"

Is Russia the bad guy or is the Georgia? I'm an American, I need a clear bad guy in a war or I don't know who to support!

Short story: South Osettia wants independence from Georgia to be part of Russia. Even though they are almost independent, the UN doesn't recognise them as a country.

Now, Georgia invades the region to try to regain its control and Russia goes in with their troops supporting South Osettia.

Now, while it may seem that Georgia are the bad guys (and they *might* be in this case) it's doubtful when you take into account past relations between the two countries and the importance of the zone for Russia. Russia wants those regions and they have been sabotaging Georgia for years, because that's what they do when they want something so the international community doesn't get too much evidence to criticise them.

Edit: I forgot you need a good and a bad like in American films: just pick on Russia, you'll have much more fun in this thread if you do so. Also, they are communists who threat your country with nuclear weapons.

"A valid question. We know nothing about their language, their history or what they look like. But we can assume this: They stand for everything we don't stand for. Also, they told me you guys look like dorks."

They look like dorks!!!

"The Elders tell of a young ball much like you. He bounced three metres in the air. Then he bounced 1.8 metres in the air. Then he bounced four metres in the air. Do I make myself clear?"





Simply the best episode for quotes, ever!

pimpmobile!

its likely that russia is the bad guy (although i could be wrong). From what i've read and seen this is basically an attempt to keep Georgia from joining NATO because they are right next to Russia.

News networks have been remarkably slow on this instead focusing on some crap about John Edwards even though he's been out of the election race for well... many months now.

Wonder how they would solve the problem if they need peace keepers to have a neutral party between the russians and georgians.. Most of the peace keepers usually come from Nato countries which I doubt would be a good idea around Russia, especially since Georgia wants to join Nato. Hopefully they'll be able to settle it quickly or this could turn really bad.

peacekeepers never do jack shit (if you mean the guys with funny blue helmets). What they need are peacemakers, and in this case it can only be nato, but that's hardly a good idea.

http://tskhinval.ru/english/

yeah, right

i've seen interviews with some people leaving to North Osethia..
they looked a bit concerned, but in no way desperate or outraged as if some horrible things happened or were expected to happen based on past "atrocities" described in your crappy Kremlin propaganda

the refugees were mostly women and children, hinting the men would remain in their place for unclear purposes ;)

that link you posted reminds me of the drama with Estonia from last year when the propaganda machine started spreading exaggerated stories about how russians are persecuted in Estonia.. it was heartbreaking really!

You've seen jackshit.

one word: BULLSHIT.

more like good old russian propaganda :D

aka bullshit

Why am I not surprised to see this?
IT'S RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA OMFG!!!!!111

You e-kids didn't even know shit about this before you saw it on TV. Keep trolling about this and showing off your knowledge (or lack of).

did you even read the OP link? or are you just that clueless

"Is this the same Russia that refuses to recognize Kosovo because it is a 'breakaway' region?

Hypocrites!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

Notice the difference in Russian rhetoric when talking about separatists that want to break away from Russia, and separatists that want to break away from thier own country to join Russia."

QFT!

also: Russian jets attack Georgian town (outside of South Ossetia). pretty gruesome :|

And you believe to this circus? I feel sry for you. Internet is full of such staged porn. Watch moar bbc lolol

i've seen similar comments, wrote by chinese guys before the olympics

obviously you (countries like russia and china) think that whole world is wrong, you know better and it's only about that nobody can unsderstand you

maybe it's really like that, but i doubt it

the whole world versus you and china. who do you think is right?

I would like to point out to the internet that just because a majority thinks something is right it does not make it right.
But in this case it is.

But basically, Russia, Muslims and China are the three biggest things the modern western world need to keep an eye on as all 3 have a desire to enter the modern western world and all 3 insist on living in the past. It simply does not work in countries like the UK/US/OZ and most developed parts of europe.

Beware. You give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

Why thank you for recognizing Australia :D

Alf stewart was a big influence on me growing up.

Jeez, every post :O)

The whole world versus US and its puppets (europe) hello. And you support Kosovo? All Europe will suffer now with this albanian animals and their freedom. Ye blame Russia, US goverment is saint lol

i didnt say our (usa) government is good, in fact, its pretty pathetic and quite dysfunctional, but it still far better than your government

"All Europe will suffer now with this albanian animals and their freedom."

Wow. Just wow.

does "albanian animals" qualify for nuke or inserting fuck somewhere is needed?

good question.

but remember, only in the western countries people get censored not it Russia!

The horde of course.

This 'attack' looks like crap. Red army all they can do is blow some guy's apartment and harm two grandmas, after that it's back to drinking vodka and abusing and beating draft youngsters.

lmao @ russia
way2ruin

What a bunch of brainwashed teenagers =\ Just watch more propaganda and masturbate coz its all you can do. Dont even want to argue with such a bs. Have fun Russia haters and other trolls.
Georgians will suffer for genocide of russian people in South Ossetia for sure.
PS: Aquashark you are just a cripple.

after siding with the Nazis and forcibly annexing parts of other countries (Poland, Baltic States, Romania, Finland) in the beginning of WW2, after fucking up half of this continent for 50+ years with communism and setting the world on the brink of WW3..

I'D SHUT THE FUCK UP, you brainwashed imbecile! how can anyone trust you?

you're against Kosovo/Chechen separatists, but are pro-Osetian/Abkhazian ones..
how do you explain that with your backwards logic?

well I actually support chechen separatists coz Chechnya is fucking cancerous growth on Russia's body, so it actually would be better for every russian to forget wtf Chechnya is, to give them their omfg sovereignty and so all, and even build the New China Wall at adjacent frontiers. Indeed, no russian actually knows why does Russia need this super-small land that causes so much problems, especially if chechens are totaly on the different page, got totaly different culture and stuff, an so on.

As you could find, that all about oil - same shit as "omfgwtf Iraq is missing teh american democracy, lets bomb them with our super-democratic missiles to death!"

Kosovo/Chechen separatists are just terrorists. They are all about selling drugs and kidnapping ....its the only business they have. They basically cant even work like normal people . And yes we are pro-Osetian ,Abkhazian coz its RUSSIAN people living there ffs its not fucking georgians.

"Kosovo/Chechen separatists are just terrorists. They are all about selling drugs and kidnapping ...."

Priceless.

Putin would be proud.

you should just shut up before you make your country look even worse than it already is

Google "chechens sweden" "chechens oslo" for example etc and read the titles.
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/ - their main site. (banned in sweden as far as i know) - http://www.edri.org/edrigram/number4.9/chechen

"Kosovo/Chechen separatists are just terrorists. They are all about selling drugs and kidnapping "

So they are just your average russian then?

Just watch more propaganda and masturbate coz its all you can do.

hmm, i am thinking which countries are known for being the most propagandist, hmm...

Seems to work :D

It really does. I sometimes wonder if it's possible to sustain a free society while still having contact with authoritarian nationalist states (who, surprising as it may seem to most westerners, are not so divorced from the opinions of their people).

mozhet sam podro4ish? samomu 18 let i razgovarivaesh o tineidzherah =/ da esho i v to uebanstvo verish, 4to govoriat po ntv i 1omu kanalu. glupo.

Ja udivlaus kak u hohlov eshe naglosti hvataet 4toto kommentirovat....vi v svoem govne ne utonite....Nikakogo vesa poleti4eskogo eshe 4eto vakaet tvoe pravitelstvo.....ot Usha svoego prokazu ne podcepi smotri

a u tebya 4to est krome atomnoi bombi? kotoraia nafig i vzletyet ne mozhet navernyaka. vot tak silnaya derzhva! idi sluzhit, raz tak lubish putina, na nego i dro4it ne zabivay. voobshe "davai lu4she vmeste yebanyom po tbilisi vspominaetsya".

Esli u nas racketi ne vzletaut 4tozh vse vokrug tak ssut pered Rossiey? Esli idet takaya propaganda so storoni shtatov 4to u nas plohoe pravitelstvo i zhidi tak silno ego nenavidat (hota usa eto tezhe zhidi) , zna4et pravilnoy dorogoy idem ....nikto zhopu lizat nikomu ne budet. I kto skazal 4to demokratiya eto luchshiy rezhim? U nas svoya doroga srali mi na democratiu v takom vide

idi v pizdu, rasist :D

idi v pizdu, rasist :D

epic.

keep it english please :)

sorry it was the point - to talk in way when nobody understands you so you can say everything you want. and it helped :D

glad you feel better but its against posting rules :P haha

finally someone with clue

By tzz +' - Reply to #14

Short story: South Osettia wants independence from Georgia to be part of Russia. Even though they are almost independent, the UN doesn't recognise them as a country.

Now, Georgia invades the region to try to regain its control and Russia goes in with their troops supporting South Osettia.

Now, while it may seem that Georgia are the bad guys (and they *might* be in this case) it's doubtful when you take into account past relations between the two countries and the importance of the zone for Russia. Russia wants those regions and they have been sabotaging Georgia for years, because that's what they do when they want something so the international community doesn't get too much evidence to criticise them.

Edit: I forgot you need a good and a bad like in American films: just pick on Russia, you'll have much more fun in this thread if you do so. Also, they are communists who threat your country with nuclear weapons.

Thats correct, but there is a little detail:
South Osettia's population are mostly russian-speaking people from ex-USSR, most of them got russian passport and that means Russian Federation's concerns are infringed.
So don't think like "omfg teh russkies do fucking shit again", this armed conflict was initiated by Georgia, especially with violation of traditional Olympian non-aggression world-wide understanding.

yes, cause Georgia had the impression it could restore its province in a full blown war with Russia

you are pulling the exact same shit like in Transnistria (Moldova).

"Russian military forces have remained on Moldovan territory; since 1993 they have been stationed in the breakaway territory of Transnistria against the will of the Moldovan Government."

well, Georgia is just a pawn in this world-wide game of chess. As long Georgia is not NATO's member, I dont see how stupid their leader should be to initiate the war without any attempts to find out the peaceful settlement of this problem in the first place.

I doubt, this turmoil will develop into any global glaring contradiction, but all these geopolitical pipe layings will become the new symbol of 21st century, thats for sure.

it appears to me that russia gave all these people citizenship in russia in order to give them a good reason to attack south ossetia and further damage georgia's chance of joining nato. obviously i have no proof of this but i have the suspicion that russia's motives are alittle more than meets the eye or what they try and tell people on tv

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/news/default.stm - Russia: "The capital of South Osetia is free"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ - reading the title "Russian jets attack Georgian town"

Georgia thought they will make a fast "blitzkrieg" and take over Osetia in 1 night, and Russia wouldnt be able to do shit later on if it happened....and it would happen if Russia wouldnt pull in. Just the way it was with Adjara and that other region of Georgia(cant remember the name).
The bet was made on that Russia wount dare to intervent, but as the bet didnt work out, Georgia is fucked now and will have to deal with heavy consequences, there military infrastracture is being destroyed, the region is destabilised, and politicaly there chances to join NATO and EU have gone to minimum..no one will want such a problematic region put on there back.

Georgia had to act in a more diplomatic way imo, bombing a city with artilery and aviation at night when people are sleeping, especialy in eve of Olympics is over the line barbarism.



What will happen further...imo the situation will just go to pre-war state, Russia wil take over Ossetia and both sides will cease fire, western peacekeepers wount be let in to Ossetia - cause that would mean a loss of the region for Russia - though there is a possibility they will be dislocated on Goergian mainland territory...

Mother Russia is a saint, we know the drill

so Georgia basically blew its chances to join NATO with an unprovoked/unnecessary intervening force (albeit on its very own territory with no evidence of killing "russian" civilians)..

don't you think this whole mess somehow favors Russia 100%? amazing..

that's only because everybody is dumb and underestimates glorious mother Russia who of course is peaceful like a lamb!!

again
russia did never started a war
america starts like one every 2 years
....

l2history.

> russia did never started a war

wow! pretty bold statement sir, would be damn hard to defend it from a couple of facts - nevertheless, good luck!

where are the facts?
just give me one where they started first

damn, so you really want me to do it! but remember that I wanted to be good for you and gave you a proper chance to save your face, too bad you didn't make use from it

anyway, here we go:
Anglo-Russian War (1807-1812)
Caucasian War
Polish-Russian War of 1792
Red Army invasion of Georgia
Russo-Persian War (1722-1723)
Livonian War
Russo-Swedish War (1495-1497)
Russo-Swedish War (1590-1595)
Russo-Swedish War (1656-1658)
Russo-Turkish War (1568-1570)
Muscovite-Lithuania War (1492-94)
Muscovite-Lithuania War (1500-03)
Polish-Soviet War
First Chechen War
Second Chechen War

BTW does Soviet invasion on Poland in 1939 (which was a part of a deal Soviet Union made with Nazis) counts as a starting a war or was it done to make peace?

You know, if you actually read things by yourself rather than follow funny links, you might get a more balanced picture of the world we live in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

Yet russia is my favorite country.

holy shit @ Casualties and losses

you finns don't fuck around ;D

It's not us, it was our fathers and grandfathers (not to mention collective effort by female population). In Finland today's youth and post-war adults are just as worthless as everywhere else.

you're right

Putin with a higly specialized army could take over Europe where people aren't so hardened anymore

luckily nuclear weapons on both sides keep things in balance

God damn right we do. Thats how we stay number one ;)

*joking*

Russia violated Georgian territorial integrity. Case closed. Nothing to see here. Another small country gets raped but this time I bet there are no deportations coming stalin style.

Russia has been pulling this shit for centuries now...
It's just that time of the year :)

Let Ye not believe of those that cometh and saith "We cameth to cast a peace upon you".
Let Ye not be fooled by cunning fox which lurks for a rabbit.

OK. So we have lovely little country desperately trying to live up to democratic standarts and get into NATO, EU and so on. On the other hand we have mighty RUSSIA.

Russia lied, killed ppl, lied even more for ages. They are actually still denying historical facts like Katyń.

TBH I believe Russians are just trying to take over that poor, little country. And nothing except "idiot americans" can stop them, only usa got balls to. EU with frenchies in office will just cry for peace and... surrender XDDD

i can guarantee that bush has fucked up our chances of saving georgia from russia or retaking it in the near future if russia completely takes over the country due to our war in iraq. in short, we do not have the balls or resources to fight russia right now.

never at any point in american history did we have the balls or the resources to fight with russia, our government has always found them more useful as a tool to make the public afraid and therefore get to them to support increases in military spending for the war with russia we will never actually have

now that the bush administration has replaced communism with terrorism as the new boogeyman in the pipes all our government could really care less what russia does as long as it's doesn't go off and nuke all of europe for some reason

i seriously doubt america will do anything but wag its finger over this, the UN might flip out but we're too fucking tied up in iraq obviously but more importantly afghanistan (which has been in desperate need of reinforcements for months now, which is pretty fucked up because it's where the terrorist network actually is) to help them even if we really felt like it

exactly. well put.

Correction we do have the balls and the power to, its just not in our best interests because war isn't favored atm because everybody thinks our president is a goof ball, and that is most likely the case ;).

Also I don't know enough about either side, to side or favor anybody at this point. So I am not saying down with Russia or Georgia. I am just stating we could take on another country if we want, we aren't really stressed at this point.

no we dont have the power to. the only power we have to do anything to russia right now is nuke them which is clearly suicidal

You really have misjudged our forces =/.

All russians internet sources, tv chanels, radio etc are baned now in Georgia... viva la brainwashing %) Ofcourse we cant win such mass media war......So enjoy Saakhashvilys lie and asskissing. I bet your chanels not showing any pictures from south Osetia. You get something like this .....so cheap and fake i just loled ....well done Saakashvily.
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/8fbdf560b...d5392a.jpg
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/3150ab368...f46b1c.jpg
http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&...0_PICTURE7
http://k.img.com.ua/img/gallery/756/0d4e3eba2...80f24e.jpg
Nice photos and professional acting xDD
Guys and you eating this shit =)

A guy living in a corrupt police state which controls all relevant media in his own country accuses Reuters of faking pics? Funny.

Dude we can watch every media in our country fox, reuters, cnn, georgians blablabla, euronews etc so i can compare and analyse. Nothing is baned.
facts
1)
BEFORE Russia entered south Osetia there were more than 100 killed Osetians !!!
2000 Citizens were killed by GEORGIAN bombing in Tshinvale.12 russian peacemakers were assassinated by georgians PEACEMAKERS .
2) CNN, BBC and other west channels inform public only from Georgian side. 90% of their infromation is MISINFORMATION. .Russian force entered the region 1 day after starting of conflict all west channels kept silence all this time!!! Georgian bombing completley destroyed Tshenvale....silence. 58th division entered south Osetia to help peacemakers and osetians.....all media chanels reacts instantly "RUSSIA ATTACKS LITTLE PEACEFULL GEORGIA AND KILLED MILLIONS OF CIVILIANS" with fake photos and videos.
3) All Russian channels are forbidden in Georgia, domain zone RU is blocked.
4) 30000 refugees moved to North Osetia under the protection of Russian piecemakers saving from Georgian genocide.Thousand Osetians escaping to the Russia!!! Why???
May be they run from Georgia ???
5) Russia wants south Osetia to be part of Georgia. We dont fucking need their land.
That's the truth...
Ok im done .....lots of stuff to do.... peace people.

Ok im done .....lots of stuff to do.... peace people.

tell that to your fucked up government

so, what about independent media in your own country? You know where the people don't fired or shot...

and how about independent media in your country? please pull your head out of your arse.

you're probably more brainwashed than the russians, and also there are probably more independent thinking people (including journalists) in russia than in XYZ (Russia is big, remember?)

what about independent media in his country?

Oh please, don't act as if the only criticism goes towards for instance Russian media. Berlusconi takes just as much shit for controlling a media empire and being PM in Italy.

replied to wrong post or conceding my point?

You sort of imply that people just swallow what Western media spout with the joy of a pornstar.
Media concerns that go totalitarian because of politicians are shat upon whether they're Russian, Chinese, Italian or any other nationality as far as I'm concerned, and as far as I read in the newspapers.

where exactly did I say I trust thge media here?

Can't find it? That's probably because I really don't trust any type of media that has to meet a daily deadline and has to be the first to publish something.

But sure you go on assuming I'm brainwashed by media I don't trust... No seriously, I find it hilarious that most people bringing up words "brainwashed" and "propaganda" are usually the ones who completely defend the viewpoint of a certain media group...

Are you laughing, too?

also, if that:

you're probably more brainwashed than the russians, and also there are probably more independent thinking people (including journalists) in russia than in XYZ (Russia is big, remember?)

would make any good argument, then China would be the most independent country of all. And America would have twice as many independent thinkers as Russia...

good choice you remained anonymous, really!

just one question

in your opinion is it true, that in Katyn russian solders killed polish soldiers, scientists etc. ?

Not to rain again on your parade, but Reuters is one of the most credible news agencies in the world.

The same corpse on first and second picture is rolling on the ground to make it more dramatic? Oh they have so little number of actors ...so the guy from second picture changed his clothes for the 3rd =|
btw i saw this corpse on your bbc news ......he was carrying by georgian soldiers :) And please replace this boy from 4th picture with Haley Joel Osment, he just sux!
ps: sry my english is small but....(c) carmac




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVrygbUzazA << you again? piss off xD

#1
http://s60.radikal.ru/i170/0808/46/8b5e766c30cc.jpg

#2
http://s61.radikal.ru/i171/0808/87/677b12e9e878.jpg

Same corpse at #2 from #1 now placed 5-8 meters closer to the lamppost.

Reuters lies !

You can't really trust anyone from that area.

Russians will do anything for a few rubels.

so, let me get tis right. because a media group buys and publishes badly(!) faked pictures everything they do and every other western media group is wrong by association, while the Russians are all correct?

It that what you are tryting to tell us here?

Look at the vegetation or his soundings to get an accurate guestimate of his location..

That being said its the same spot, different angle.

People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : www.1tvrus.com/ , www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , www.rian.ru/ , www.vesti.ru/news , news.ntv.ru/ , www.ren-tv.com/ , www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell is not present to WAR!!!

.

nah, they just go by bike wearing suglasses and khaki clothes, hoping to not get hurt in the progress

i thought they wear those blue with white stripe jogging suits you always see

that's a common misunderstanding

lmao ++++

Most British sources seem undecided as to who acted first, but most are unanimous in that it's unclear...

according to what sources? Russian or Georgian, local or independent?

I mean it's not really difficult to make a phonceall and say "oh god we are attacked, come help plz".

You're such a cupcake!

MUST...SAVE..ATLANTA...

Yea, I'm so confused. After four days of my PC not working I get back online, only to find out that someone started a war somewhere.
Sooo, why's the Russian army in Atlanta?

Why am i not surprised that there are people here defending russia's actions

in soviet russia, actions defend YOU

and all of them are russians or from russian puppet states

ya i dont expect to hear much support for russia from some former soviet bloc countries like poland

all non-russian speaking eastern bloc hates russia.. even from communist times!

it's only natural :D

I support Russia in this matter.
How's that? :)

failed trolling or exception of the rule :P

cause ur a fucking russian occupant!!!11!!

well, we are in 21st century right now, but russia behaves like we are still between 17th and 19th

haha and who fucking loves USA?

GOD DOES

seems the only one atm

fail

If the US goverment steped in military action, I promise you Georgia would.

sure he does. christians prolly think he proves that with tornadoes.

He proves his love by raping us with tornadoes?

sarcasm?

sif' i would be stupid enough to believe in god

i'm an atheist, so i kinda added the "christians" part cause of that.

Well they are all retarded, not just Christians.

The obvious difference between you and the Americans here on ESR is that they are usually the first to criticise their own government when necessary, yet you seem incapable of separating your own opinions from those of the state.

You cannot compare America's actions in Iraq, which have been widely condemned by most US citizens and will probably cost the Republicans the 2008 elections, to Russian actions which are likely to have no domestic consequences and are even seen as fundamentally justified by people such as yourself.

(And I'm not American, to pre-empt that inevitable response.)

tru dat
it's very interesting thing and never fails to amaze me - it's the same way with many chineese people, how they defend their government
I suppose it's a matter of a culture differences - in western countries freedom and democracy is one of the most important values and you never trust your government - on the east it seems to be opposite: government knows what to do, the most important thing is the order and so on, weird thing from our perspective

same you american lapdog you only propaganda. (just to'pre-empt')

The best part is that these Russians living in west do not want to live in Russia.

Do something about it other than whining!

I think nobody here denies that Georgia started the whole shit with attacking separatist forces in South Ossetia. Now, South Ossetia is still Georgian territory, so it shouldn't be Russias concern so much what Georgia does there.
Saying that there are many Russians living in South Ossetia seems to be a poor excuse, when Russian government gave them passports just before to make them "Russian".
The only proper reason I can think of is that Russia had peacekeeper forces stationed in South Georgia, but I doubt that Georgia was so stupid to attack these forces.
Russia is clearly overreacting and to me it is obvious that they do that on purpose, so Georgia can not become a member of the NATO. Russia was supporting the separatist forces long before, they simply dont want that this conflict comes to a rest. Russia is blocking the any action of the UN Security Council completely, which makes it clear that they don't give a fuck about peace.

I think both sides lie through their teeth, but what makes me really wonder is that some of the russian people here dont seem to be aware at all that their media is heavily controlled by their own government.

The only proper reason I can think of is that Russia had peacekeeper forces stationed in South Georgia, but I doubt that Georgia was so stupid to attack these forces.
from what i've read - they did, and killed 10 of them, giving russia excuse to attack

yes, but if we really want to talk about propaganda, fake stories and so on, then a "10 of our soldiers died" report is kinda easy to do...

if you ask me, i wouldn't be surprised if russians killed those soldiers themselves...

nah, i wouldn't go that far. just show coffins and say they are closed to respect the victims, etc.

it's an age old recipe. as long as there's one russian in another country they'll say he feels threatened and invade it.

nah, i wouldn't go that far. just show coffins and say they are closed to respect the victims, etc.

Now Russia wants to nuke Poland =/

check this out

Well, war is full of propaganda and nobody here can be sure who are the "bad guys" and who the "good guys", only those who are directy involved can tell.

exactly

the bad guys are the enemy

Hooah

Try living near Russia a few years before blaming Georgia

.

You think that war is a sport or smth so the amount of units must be equal?

Just 1 John Rambo makes fun of numbers.

I think its kinda funny the state of Tennessee where I am from is bigger than Georgia in size and population. I also thought it was funny that the USA is bigger than Russia in population.

===God bless America===

http://tinyurl.com/5w7l4y

Clearly fake, but still hilarious nonetheless.

called trolling, but its funny :)

The United States invaded Panama in 1989 when one it's MARINES WAS SHOT DEAD BY THE PANAMIAN ARMY. Every story has two sides to it! Remember it was the brutal dictator Stalin (a Georgian despot) that persecuted peoples of the former Soviet Union inculding Poland.

we know it's you yeltsin, give it up.

sif, Yeltsin thinks Stalin was the best man ting that ever happened so russia.

which is why they're

RETAKING GEORGIA FOR MOTHER RUSSIA!

stalin would be proud

muppet

Du weinst so viel. verpiss dich

raged muppet.

haha nein ich liebe dich meine nette Dummkopf ^^

ich dich nicht, sry. :-[

No problem. I have a lot of german friends anyway ;)

we're great people, aren't we?

hehe yes i like german people really , to bad i was in Erfurt in 2002....i remember this tragedy so clear =\ I was lucky i wasnt at this school.

ye, that was bad. stupid cs players innit.

don't now how good your German, but you might find it interesting to read this article: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,571144,00.html

which definately is propaganda.

and then the reader's reactions here: http://forum.spiegel.de/showthread.php?t=4830

Just saying, it's possible to be critical, without agreeing that Russia is completely innocent in this matter.

No they will not sorry.
Very nice song in this vid btw.

So... Do you agree that Russians killed Polish soldiers and intelectuals in Katyn?

How should I know?

; DDDD

good question, haha. even better since they just don't mention such "irrelevant" historical incidents in your TV and press, do they? :)

that's actually interesting. don't understand how anyone can deny something proven by a lot of documents and people

As far as i remember it was Yeltsin (piece of shit drunker) who gave Poland all the documents about Katyn. But polish lost them or it was stolen smth like that....

ahahhahahaha :DDDD

ahahaha great innit

That's maybe not best argument in the history, but somehow that simple fact that Russian media deny Katyn makes them irrelevant as source of any information. So I think it's quite reasonable to assume that they lie about Georgia as well.

lol there were not only polish people....and why should i know your history so good, do you know anything about Russia except Katyns massacre? http://www.topix.com/world/russia/2008/07/doc...-in-poland < nice ....it was Putin im 100% sure , then he killed Politkovskaya and poisoned Litvinenko right? lolmao

*facepalm*

the problem is not in some documents lost in Poland but in the fact that Russia doesn't want to qualify murdering of 22 000 people as a crime against humanity - and this way keep a really valuable documents (those that point to the people responsible for the crime) in secret

I know the history but why you asking me the facts then? I wasnt there i swear you!

BOOM-V-V-ROOOM !!!!! :P

WHERE IS LENNOX?? :EEEEEEEE

"why is no surprise that there are people here defending russia"
"omg russia is bad"
"omg georgia is bad"

I don't really think it's possible to understand this situation without a basis, unless you're directly involved in the conflict to an EXTREME degree. almost anything posted here is going to be mere speculation, and I'd wager that you're all just as guilty as the people you accuse.

one thing is for sure: war is not black and white. there are degrees to everything, and that's the second time I wrote degree in this post, and who or whom is in more deeply than any other I cannot reliably know, so I imagine that such supposition requires as much blind faith as any other political agenda recently debated on this site does.

many lulz at ignorance @ ESR! i mean, quakers are supposed to be the elite of the world, right :/

google to the rescue!

guys, don't bother to argue with Salima. he is a racist and he thinks democracy is wrong. at least not for his country, he says so.

as the things stand now, with the people's mentality and all, i kinda agree with him

I love how you're so sure that democracy is a good thing.

I just watched "Russia Today" a english language news program thats aired on PBS in in san francisco occasionally and if thats how all the news is in russia then its understandable why they're all brainwashed idiots. Like every other image had "OSSETIA GENOCIDE" all over it among other things

And you know how much of Ossetian genocide, Georgia, or the region? Do you have evidence that counteracts witness reports being used as sources in reports of this ethnic cleansing? Do you, by any chance, know what sort of war people of Caucasus wage and what they do after they take over territory? I think you should have your own TV station in Russian, maybe you could unbrainwash the poor idiots who know less about whats going on driving distance from them then you, oh great Venim of the sunny state of California.

says the ruskie living abroad and enjoying a high standard of living..

how are you exactly less biased when?
1. you're siding with the Russians based on your ethnic background sensibilities
2. you express soviet nostalgia in some of your journal posts
3. you are apologetic for that respective era without experiencing it first hand

???

What the hell does bias have to do with first hand knowledge? You're right though, he can see things way better from California wearing his unbiased scopes unlike all these biased commie ruskies living on the ground. Thanks for the breakdown cupcake :)

i'm sorry but the freedom of press (or lack thereof) and general level of nationalistic brainwashing in Russia doesn't really shine a good light on the subject either

plus the events are taking place in Georgia, a very low profile region.. how many Russians know people in Ossetia? or have ever been there once?

first hand knowledge.. yeah right
now ruskies are sending troops in Abkhazia to start some shit there too. how convenient! did Abkhazians turn into Russians overnight too, like Ossetians did?

"i'm sorry but the freedom of press (or lack thereof) and general level of nationalistic brainwashing in Russia doesn't really shine a good light on the subject either"

I can say the same for western media, but I don't because saying that doesn't put fourth any argumentation in form of fact or logical derivation.

"plus the events are taking place in Georgia, a very low profile region.. how many Russians know people in Ossetia? or have ever been there once?"

Not only they know, they have relatives there. Ossetians have relatives in Russia. I've been there a number of times. Here's a big clue. North Ossetia is officially a part of Russia.

"now ruskies are sending troops in Abkhazia to start some shit there too. how convenient! did Abkhazians turn into Russians overnight too, like Ossetians did?"

haha, this just shows you have absolutely not clue about the region. Abhazia and South Ossetia had a pact about mutual protection. Abhazians attacked right after Russia did.

so the western media is brainwashing me to believe Russia is not a democracy and doesn't have freedom of press?

Putin must be the new Gandhi or something then.. how can i reach the light?

"haha, this just shows you have absolutely not clue about the region. Abhazia and Ossetia had a pact about mutual protection. Abhazians attacked right after Russia did."

a pact that shouldn't concern Russian troops.

As you can see, me saying so would not convince you. You should not expect the same of your nonsense. My point being, get back to the facts.

get back to the facts?
the facts are pretty unclear besides Russia overreacting and seizing the moment to take over the breakaway regions

"the facts are pretty unclear besides Russia overreacting and seizing the moment to take over the breakaway regions"

Russia overreacting is a fact? By what merit?
Russia take over the breakaway regions? That's also fact?
I see. You're going down the right pathway, comrade Aquashark.

"Russia overreacting is a fact? By what merit?"
by invading another country with yet to be revealed evidence of violence against "Russian" citizens

"Russia take over the breakaway regions? That's also fact?"
they're the main occupying force, so why not?
there's no democracy in Russia, what stops them on slapping a puppet administration in that area too?

"by invading another country with yet to be revealed evidence of violence against "Russian" citizens"

Russia doesn't have to reveal the evidence to you the moment it does this by military logistics.

"they're the main occupying force, so why not?"

Russia is not occupying any break-away territory. Occupation and operational dislocation are entirely different things. South Ossetia has asked Russia to intervene. Russia simply wants Georgia to get out of the South Ossetian region and cease military action, as the UN decree of 1996 requires.

"there's no democracy in Russia, what stops them on slapping a puppet administration in that area too?"

Oh, I see. No democracy in Russia? Is that also a fact? Well, if so, I guess that means there is nothing from stopping them! Thank god there is a democracy in United States, stopping it from sending Georgia 30 millions to buy weapons, 127 Department of Defense employees, and all the other cozy sunshine goodness.

don't discuss with that moron man. it's pointless. he's got soviet flag in his avatar. he's prolly one of those russians ive mentioned before, who believe there were no Katyn and that they rescued Poland from nazis during WWII.

dunno about your country, but in Poland t-shirts with soviet/nazi flags and such stuff are banned. that guy is a maniac, intelligent maniac who got power over esr.

fact that he nuked by post with movie about warsaw uprising in 1944 shows clearly who he is.

actually they did rescue us from nazis during WWII, the fact that before that they invaded us and during that they installed their moscow-controlled government (against the will of Poles) is a different story

and I don't think that soviet t-shirts are banned in poland, nazis are for sure, but soviet ones - don't think so.

Art. 13.

Zakazane jest istnienie partii politycznych i innych organizacji odwo&#322;uj&#261;cych si&#281; w swoich programach do totalitarnych metod i praktyk dzia&#322;ania nazizmu, faszyzmu i komunizmu, a tak&#380;e tych, których program lub dzia&#322;alno&#347;&#263; zak&#322;ada lub dopuszcza nienawi&#347;&#263; rasow&#261; i narodowo&#347;ciow&#261;, stosowanie przemocy w celu zdobycia w&#322;adzy lub wp&#322;ywu na polityk&#281; pa&#324;stwa albo przewiduje utajnienie struktur lub cz&#322;onkostwa.

Article 13

Political parties and other organizations whose programmes are based upon totalitarian methods and the modes of activity of nazism, fascism and communism, as well as those whose programmes or activities sanction racial or national hatred, the application of violence for the purpose of obtaining power or to influence the State policy, or provide for the secrecy of their own structure or membership, shall be prohibited.

from our Constitution. Article about parties, shall I find you proper article in our law for other activities (like propaganda via t-shirts, lol)?

I actually searched for it by myself and indeed it is prohibited to preach nazism or other totalitarian regime (communism included) but in practice no one cares about t-shirts with che, lenin or cccp (stalin might be a different case as he is a cleary hitler-like figure) and the likes - mostly because those t-shirts are not really serious, hardly anyone in poland really preach communism
but, see for yourself

Hmm people who wear this kind of clothes are kinda strange, for example most of them doesn't know shit about Che (I mentioned him as he seems to be the most popular).

I would be more bothered if they actually knew more about Che and still wear those clothes ;)
Those kids wear such t-shirts not to advertise communism but simply because Che (him mostly), hammer and sickle, or CCCP are a part of pop culture

yes i agree

""haha, this just shows you have absolutely not clue about the region. Abhazia and Ossetia had a pact about mutual protection. Abhazians attacked right after Russia did."

a pact that shouldn't concern Russian troops."'

Why shouldn't it? It concerns them a great deal. They'd like to help out!

yeah.. what does international law say about intervening with force on other country's territory? Abkhazia had nothing to do with Ossetia in this chain of events.

are you attempting a pre-emptive campaign now?

also a pact between two unrecognized breakaway regions means nothing.

"yeah.. what does international law say about intervening with force on other country's territory?"

It says peacekeepers are required to do so. Thats what Russian troops are.

Abkhazia had nothing to do with Ossetia in this chain of events."

It has a lot. Abhazia attacked Georgia after Georgia attacked South Ossetia, fulfilling its obligation to South Ossetia and to International Law which obliges all peacekeepers, which are made up of Abhazian forces, and Russian forces, and Georgian forces to attack in preventing any attack of another group and thus keeping the peace.

"are you attempting a pre-emptive campaign now?"

It's a lawful reaction to Georgias violation of 1996 agreement and UN decrees of non-aggression.

"also a pact between two unrecognized breakaway regions means nothing. "

It means a lot when the regions have own armies which they use.

wow really?

Haha, no I'm shitting you! lewl

So, just hyopthetically speaking, russian forces advancing into georgia beyond the breakaway regions would be what?

peacekeeping :D

A military action? Every military should, and does, including US, Israeli, and many others, militarily answer to attacks from any territory by a direct response to that territory to prevent the original actions.

well at least that way we would get rid of overpopulation, fast.

If you say so.

no it only makes sense, whenever you neighbor is attacked you should better make sure you attack the aggressors, before they come to you!

Next up, let's kill all intellectuals, cause they are far more likely to cause a revolution. Also people that wear glasses.

You forgot a clown.

no need you would easily find other bullshit reasons to justify anything.

But the clown helps so much :\

"So, just hyopthetically speaking, russian forces advancing into georgia beyond the breakaway regions would be what? "

Preemptive non-agression, unlimited freedom etc.

I'm glad that there still is objective and unbiased journalism that hasn't been corrupted by 'western corporate media':

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/09-0...asaviour-0

ahaha, nice find :D

"Russia: Again Savior of Peace and Life"

again? what? are these people fucking kidding me?
they couldn't save their own men from a sunken submarine, refusing international help :/

it's really sad to see how a nation controlled by a blatant oligarchy and ex-kgb structures is still so eager to chew on that nationalistic demagogical bullshit, going into drone mode even on the internet to defend their immaculate Mother Russia

wake the fuck up!

I bet if a Russian went against their country in a forum post, it would be their last post =x.

After having offered a cease fire in hostilities, the back stabbing Georgians immediately violated the cease fire

lmao@unbiased "journalism"

"after the savage, brutal, criminal attack by Georgia on South Ossetia. After having offered a cease fire in hostilities, the back stabbing Georgians immediately violated the cease fire, invading South Ossetia and causing massive destruction and death among innocent civilians, among peacekeepers and also destroying a hospital"

damn you baby killers! SICK EM YELTSIN!

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=w1dZCUVqj-s

i got nuked so i will repost it.

demiurge you moron, this is a video about warsaw uprising 1944. RELATED to this topic, like nothing else. this is just another proof that germany and russia will remain liers and aggressors. germany will do nothing about georgia even tho they could, becouse of russian oil.

are you fucking kidding me? what does germany have to do with anything?

just another proof that germany [..] will remain liers and aggressors

shut the fuck up, stupid nationalist idiot. remain liers and agressors ... geez.

dude, that was 64 years ago - get a life!
i might not like current russia or german politics but bringing up historic arguments, especially in such poor manner (germany and russia attacked poland 69 years ago so they will remain liers and aggressors??????) is a utter nonsense
my suggestion: go to berlin, drink some beer and have a lot of fun with a cool people living there, those "liers and aggressors" as you call them

civil ppl got nothing to do with that.

there were, are and will be many germans who do not like what they gov. is doing.

there is huge difference between germans and germany, russians and russia. i like russians but hate russia.

and if you think that something has changed since wwii check out what's happening with gas and oil in europe and what is russia's role in that matter.

oh please go ahead and elaborate on the gas politics. I have good contacts to that business, they might be very curious about your insights.

and don't forget to mention the gas pipeline being built that goes south of the black sea and around Russia with the idea to make us more independent of their gas?
You know the one the Gazporm etc. don't really like but the European companies build anyway.

OK, that's too much for me, have fun alone with your obsessions

Edit: not exactly :| But still amazing:

http://www.google.com/trends/hottrends?sa=X&date=2008-8-8

Check out the 50th one.

All the plain "Fuck You" posts without any other points will be deleted or nuked.

oh noes
why the sudden change of heart when ESR was about freedom of speech?

touchy subject? did the ruskie implant activate?
"main directive: blindly protect Mother Russia at all cost!"

There is no sudden change, honeybun. I and other admins always deleted all plain "fuck you"s before when we came across them, and will continue to do so. The reminder is for extra thick like mfx, hes now on Probation for lack of comprehension.

im not surprised you nuked my comment. just another reason esr is fucked up. oh and nuke this one too while your at it, you seem to be pretty good at it

oh and it wasnt a plain "fuck you". i also mentioned you look into what the soviet union and stalin have done seeing as how you jack off about them in your dreams

Uh no, that's same stupid hate mongering and insulting shit.

and you expected something else after

... Oh Great Venim of the sunny state of California.

?

I expect you to embrace your greatness, my messiah.

now that's a clear "fuck you"

or do your own rules not apply to you?

I'm not seeing the lettaz. Perhaps you should check your goggles.

Really people... Dont belive in what you read or do :).

War is a war and there will always be lie somewhere in it. But as far I know, when zezenia did terrorist attacks on Russia, the school and meany more bad things, that is a good reason to start a war against bastards.

Like USA...
- "They have A-BOMB" and they did Terrorist attack on New York. Well what can be better reason to invade Iraq?

Same goes to Russia. Russia is beeing attack by Terrorist and other stupid shit.. now this. I think Russia reaction is ok.. but ofc they maybe have some other thoughts about what they gonna get from this war, but that we wil never find out.

IIRC terrorist attacks (school, theatre) took place after the war in czeczenia

So pure terrorists have no other way against "bloody Red Army" but capture civilian hostages !
It's ok. Georgians way to go.

what the hell?
i've just stated that it was not a terrorist attacks that 'caused war in chechenia and that those terrorist attacks actually happened after the war - as far as I'm concerned those are the facts - what do you want to talk about here?

don't bother discussing anything with these russians. they don't even read what you write, they just repeat the installed phrases over and over.

read more about the goings-on in Chechnya in early 90s. when the freedom-loving would-be terrorists were killing russians just for fun

what does that have to do with what I wrote?
it was not a terrorist attacks that 'caused war in chechenya, those (terrorist attacks) happened after the war - this is what I wrote, remember?
chechenya declared independence, russia started a war - simple EOT

Wtf are you talking about?

Lol. Poor Saakashvili. His own people will hopefully stump him out. What an idiot.

i can honestly picture you having a wank over how powerful mother Russia is...

disgusting.

Damn it, I forgot to put on my tinfoil hat :\

You are sad proof that nationalism alone can turn otherwise intelligent people into raving lunatics.

You are entertaining proof that CNN alone can turn otherwise unintelligent people into raving lunatics.

Actaully CNN seems to be pretty neutral on that case so far (as most of western medias, including Polish ones, I think) as they mostly report it in the manner: "Georgia said this, Russia said that" without stating any strong opinions on who is right, who is to blame etc.

On the other hand, judging from your posts, I assume CNN would be OK for you only if they would present Russian point of view only and as the true one

Not quite. First thing I heard when I checked CNN was a question by the dictor: "When will the Russian tanks get out of this sovereign nation?" As if the whole iraq deal just suddenly fell out of the guys brain. Next there was Saakashvilii interview. Next there was everything US commentators have to say, including primarily, obviously, US interests. Haven't seen Medvedevs open declaration of the actions once. Haven't seen background on the conflict once, as if there is absolutely no diffrence between South Ossetia and the rest of Georgia. No coverage of the UN council meeting that I've seen. On the other hand Russian TV broadcasted it live, in full, with all the criticism and the responses. Seems pretty one sided to me. And what do you mean "CNN would be OK to me" ? It looks like they are doing a great job to me. They're just working for the other side.

You won't get me into that discussion too far cuz I don't really follow whole case too much - I just wrote what I saw, maybe that was too little to make proper judgment on the quality of their work.
Fortunately, western countries have free media so when CNN fails to do their job properly, there is for example BBC who do it just fine.
For example http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm or
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm seems to be pretty fair journalism to me.

> And what do you mean "CNN would be OK to me" ?
OK in a way that you wouldn't accuse them of turning people into raving lunatics.

"Fortunately, western countries have free media so when CNN fails to do their job properly, there is for example BBC who do it just fine."

Fortunately, Russia is full of all sorts of media, just like, if not more so than the west. For example, I mainly listen to anti-government Russian radio stations and news sources as they have more commentary and they do a fine job of criticizing everyone and everything. No one there, unlike in Western media, disputes facts like who attacked who, and discusses just how evil Russian tanks are, because the audience isn't nearly as clueless of what is happening right in front of their eyes.

"For example http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm or
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm seems to be pretty fair journalism to me."

I'm sure those two do, to you, unfortunately the second piece is the first one in which I see no blatant manipulation of facts and terminology for a certain purpose, and only because it's an interview. Still, when BBC provides records of meetings it decides to drop key parts of speeches, such as in Putins speech:
"The cynicism of such politics isn't surprising, whats surprising is the sheer amount of it. What's surprising is the ability to present black as white, ability to present an aggressor as a victim of aggression. Saddam Hussein, as known, of course, had to be hanged for destruction of a few Shiite villages. But the current Georgian top government officials, who in a short time completely erased from the face of the earth 10 Ossetian villages, who, squashed children and elderly with tanks, who burned peaceful civilians alive in sheds, those - those heads of government of course need to be taken protected.""

What is struck out, has been simply left out of the BBCs transcription.

"OK in a way that you wouldn't accuse them of turning people into raving lunatics."

I don't have to accuse them. It's their job, and they're doing it well.

if you want unbiased media, you should not look for it in a country that is directly involved. Cause chances are they are more biased than others.

it really is that simply.

I mean I even have heard some obscure reports that even some of the critical, anti-government are somewhat being controlled regarding the degree of their criticism.
Which actually would be a smart thing to do from a propagandistic point of view.

But honestly, no one here has been quoting Georgian papers and said they are completely independent, and they should actually be closer than Russian paper's ;)

"it really is that simply."

I only want "media" when I want to know what "media" wants to say. Right now, when I want to know whats going on, I'm reading forums and blogs by people right from the ground, serving or covering. That way I get to know things in "human speak" without political twisting hours before they hit normal news sources.

"I mean I even have heard some obscure reports that even some of the critical, anti-government are somewhat being controlled regarding the degree of their criticism."

I heard the marsians invaded Georgia. Bottom line is that Russia is economically a free state now. Money rules over everything. A news station is a business like anywhere else. Also, everyone in it knows everything about everyone else. I hear the most extreme voices unobstructed on Moscow Echo 24/7, from separatists to just anything, and that's the most popular station in the country. And they're even owned by Gazprom. Fact is, they bring in money. There is an audience for this. And therefore it will be allowed.

"But honestly, no one here has been quoting Georgian papers and said they are completely independent, and they should actually be closer than Russian paper's ;)"

The thing is, BBC, German, USA, other media reports virtually mirror Georgian interpretations, as long as it doesn't involve the West coming to the rescue physically, the western media is fully behind Georgia on this one, and as expected, since it's a US fortpost against Russia.

so, how is your German, that you are so informed about their reports.

I mean just 40 minutes ago I read an item which quotes both the Georgian and the Russian view, without even commenting.

Therefore I call bullshit on that statement... again...

But I guess stating only the Russian side is much more independent...

I use translators, also www.inosmi.ru provides translated articles in real time.

I believe that, but translating German is hard if a human does it. Almost always fails if done automatically (verb placement fucks it up, etc.) Especially with the Konjunktiv, which is used to show that a certain statement is not certain but based on others.


Also what I completly missed before.
Do you really believe that a huge and rich company like Gazprom gives a fuck about the revenue of a radiostation? Especially if it would hurt their main business? I bet their pr department costs way more!

And when you then think about the new oil and gas pipelines that run through Georgia to Europe while avoiding Russian territory...
It could of course be completely unrelated, but when you bring money into the discussion, then annexing Georgia could prove highly profitable for Gazprom and Russia.

"Do you really believe that a huge and rich company like Gazprom gives a fuck about the revenue of a radiostation?"

Of course. It really is the biggest news radio station in Russia. But not just because of that. Mainly, because it part of a division of a division, in a company where success of its departments is valued by profit, so it's just an effect of capitalism that any profit matters. That's not however how I know they don't control the content, and I know from the obscenity of some of it and from the fact that the Head Editor of the station has said many times he has full editorial control and can leave the company and reform elsewhere at any hint of pressure.

"And when you then think about the new oil and gas pipelines that run through Georgia to Europe while avoiding Russian territory...
It could of course be completely unrelated, but when you bring money into the discussion, then annexing Georgia could prove highly profitable for Gazprom and Russia."

Annexing would be a horrible, horrible, expensive operation. Georgia is an economically failed state. The pipeline is already owned by BP, and it's unlikely it can be "annexed" even if Georgia can be. But there is simply no reason to. The best case scenario would be for Georgia to have anyone but the Saakashvili nutter in charge. Lack of his weird, politically suicidal aggression would be the only good outcome at this point.

then you really haven't understood how big companies operate, I'm afraid. They often pay insane sums of money for advertisement. e.g. gazprom paid 100 million to sponsor a German football team, wtf?

So why not use an already owned station for a little advertising? There is so much more money in selling gas.
And it's not like they would effectively loose all of their revenue, just a part.

Letting political weirdos speak doesn't say anything, if they are weird enough that none actually believes them it just helps the credibility.

Also, do you think any editor would say: "I can't really publish everything that I want and if I did i would loose my job and noone would hire me again". That doesn't happen, nowhere in the world.


About the pipeline: yes, it is owned by BP but it wouldn't matter. With such pipelines they have contracts that they may send gas/oil through a country for a certain fee. But those contracts are between Georgia and BP not Russia. So those would become void.
And Russia could either demand enourmous fees or deny the transport completely, so Europe could only buy from gazprom and they really have no choice.

"So why not use an already owned station for a little advertising? There is so much more money in selling gas.
And it's not like they would effectively loose all of their revenue, just a part."

Well first of all, gazprom doesn't need to advertise, financing a football team was for the image. If they started doing anything, knowing the head editor, the people who make it up, I can simply guarantee they would not accept that. But most importantly, they will loose their audience. And they have competing "opposition" stations. It just wouldn't fly.

"Letting political weirdos speak doesn't say anything, if they are weird enough that none actually believes them it just helps the credibility."

They don't let political weirdos speak. Those who are weirdos in my eyes, are respectable people in their eyes and the eyes of their audience. Those are sovient intelligencia who are primarily USSR dissidents, wishing for destruction of USSR, Russia and "Putins empire" more then even mfx. Thats the primary voices on that station. Kasparov, Limonov, those guys would be on all the time. The extremes would be Chechen separatists, baltic nazis, etc.

"Also, do you think any editor would say: "I can't really publish everything that I want and if I did i would loose my job and noone would hire me again". That doesn't happen, nowhere in the world."

That's true, but the thing is, I know for a fact he would be hired in a second. They are a viable, profitable business and can leave gazprom any time.

"But those contracts are between Georgia and BP not Russia. So those would become void. And Russia could either demand enourmous fees or deny the transport completely, so Europe could only buy from gazprom and they really have no choice."

Anything is possible, but it doesn't make it viable. The stench alone, the damage to gazproms business reputation would make it not worth it. But the biggest problem is with the political and economical cost of taking over Georgia. It would be pretty astronomical, compare it to Iraq, and the benefit in comparison would be minuscule.

"Well first of all, gazprom doesn't need to advertise, financing a football team was for the image."

ok, "advertising" was the wrong word, I really meant image related pr management.

Actually, I thought I remembered reading about the station a while back and actually found the article. And their analysis is also, that buying a media station as a monopolist with good relations to the government is never only for financial reasons.

"They don't let political weirdos speak. Those who are weirdos in my eyes, are respectable people in their eyes and the eyes of their audience. Those are sovient intelligencia who are primarily USSR dissidents, wishing for destruction of USSR, Russia and "Putins empire" more then even mfx. Thats the primary voices on that station. Kasparov, Limonov, those guys would be on all the time. The extremes would be Chechen separatists, baltic nazis, etc."

Well, true it's arguable, but it really does wonders for gazprom's reputation, doesn't it? Imagine they would completely block all critical news! It might be a little bit like monarchs having jester's.

And no I do not believe that the people in charge would not lift a finger if the station would hurt their ambitions

"That's true, but the thing is, I know for a fact he would be hired in a second. They are a viable, profitable business and can leave gazprom any time."

Obviously, I don't know their contracts or how shareholding works in Russia, but I don't think they could just leave gazprom and start their own station. else paying money for shares would be kinda pointless.

"Anything is possible, but it doesn't make it viable. The stench alone, the damage to gazproms business reputation would make it not worth it. But the biggest problem is with the political and economical cost of taking over Georgia. It would be pretty astronomical, compare it to Iraq, and the benefit in comparison would be minuscule."

I agree that the cost of taking over could be very high and never pay off, just as I wrote that it could be profitable. I simply don't know the exact numbers, but what I do know is that the BTC alone cost 2,5 billon € which is a fifth of Georgia's GDP...
nabucco is 7,9 billion € and it's profitability could probably be hurt too.

About gazprom's reputation, their is no dierect link to Georgia for them, and also: Europe would simply not have any choice. They would have to buy their gas from gazprom!

As I said it's all speculation, but not something you can simply ignore. It would not be the first war fought for oil...

so, please enlighten me where are these reports completely copying the Georgain view:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,571380,00.html
http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/suedossetien186.html
http://www.faz.net/s/Rub97F2F5D596354F4BBE619...ntent.html

Those are actually three of the bigger German news sites.
So please, agian, show me where they are biased, I'm really really curious about your special insights.

Oh, and please feel free to note the extensive use of either qoutes or the Konjunktiv.


oh, before you don't reply: stop making shit up, idiot!

Well, I take back the mirroring by the German media. French, German, Italian media have been more neutral then US and especially UK. Only because I see there are those who are more neutral, but I saw plenty of those who just obscene. Especially a newspaper that used Putins picture and an image from a South Ossetian hospital/victim, with a title "Putin bombs poor civilians". Bold, and pure propaganda since the picture was of Georgians bombardment victims. I wish I was making it up, sigh.

ok accepted, haven't read us or us stuff, so can't comment on that.

onto russian media - strange is the fact that couple months ago, here on esreality, some other russian told me that there are hardly any media in russia that criticize the government and those existing are of small popularity and range
onto articles from bbc: what's wrong with the 1st one? 2nd one is not an interview, it's more like FAQ
onto bbc dropping part of speeches - can't discuss that, I only know about it from your relation, can't check if it is for real

.

Keeping my fingers crossed!!

Just one question.

Are soviet/nazi symbols legal in USA? Aren't they banned?

I mean: when you're walking on a street with such symbolic on your, say, t-shirt, is police on you?

Unfortunately not. Sadly US hasn't achieved the level of freedom and enlightenment that you're wishing for :'(

You, like many other modern nu-socialists-che-guevara-whatever do not understand idea of freedom, propably since it's such a new thing to you. Freedom doesn't mean I can harm you, that's obvious for you, right? What about telling you that I wan't harm you? That's a threat and you can get charged for that I guess, right? Just reconsider your definiton of freedom when it comes to symbols. Nazis and communists killed millions of people. Commies are more twisted than nazis, who directly encourage people to kill other people but more or less these ideologies are about the same: terror, system of terror. When you wear nazi symbol it's either you not understanding what it stands for or you supporting nazis. It's like saying "I support those who killed millions of innocent people".

I know you will laugh on that, but I strongly advise reading what John Paul II wrote about freedom and another very important word, which you do not understand: responsibility. I am not catholic, I am not a believer, it's not about that at all. The problem is that you have no idea what system you praise in your avatar REALLY were. You know perfectly what they did, but you just can't FEEL it. You can't imagine people torturing, killing other people becouse they were thinking different.

"When you wear nazi symbol it's either you not understanding what it stands for or you supporting nazis. It's like saying "I support those who killed millions of innocent people"."

Good thing I don't wear nazi symbols. Good thing I know exactly what communism is, what USSR stood for, and what the Hammer and Sickle is about. I find your devotion admirable but misdirected, or rather skillfully directed by certain political forces. You're an ant in a huge anthill, I'm not spending another iota of my time to teach you history. If you have the brains you will find out for yourself, if not, not my problem.

You think you're smart, but you don't understand, or don't want to. I don't mind as long as you're abusing your power to support your sick ideology. You know, that tickles my "polish rage" inner senses.

Do entertain me, how is Communist ideology sick? I take it you read Marx?

reminds me of fritzl

O my...look at our holy father!

speaking of theory: no private ownership - sick, "each gives according to his abilities, receives according to his needs" - sick, and so on...
practice: failure and sick

i remember empty shelves in food stores :/
and having to wait even hours in line for milk and bread

and this stupid ruskie fuckhead living in America enjoying high standard of living dares to be apologetic for a system that never worked and never will.. quite pathetic

this thread is more disturbing than the Hitler one.

I remember back in the day the KGB would come and make me exercise in the morning. If I didn't they would shoot me in the back of the head. LoL, you're such tools. Show you two relabeled pictures of nazi concentration camps from sixty years ago and you'll blame present day Russia for every single thing your incompetent Government is fucking up and crave evil ruskie blood. Keep entertaining me, tools.

weren't you the one who said first hand experience is always better than reading about somethine (which I do agree with).

Cause I might be wrong but didn't Poland and Romania live und like a certain regime that wanted to create communism?


how, you would try to connect Marx to the actual ideology of the Sowjets is beyond me btw.
Or did you read Aristotle before commenting on western politics?

Enjoying your burgers much?

you're funny guy - a couple of posts (like #268, #291, #299) you fail to dicuss and then you go aggressive ('tools'), attempt to be funny in a lame way ('KGB in the morning'), try to deny facts in a totally laughable way ('relabeled pictures of nazi camps'), change the topic ('present day Russia') and provoke others ('your incompetent Government')
so lame and funny at the same time :D

yep, because we all know USSR was all about peace, love and understanding, always!
:D

Didint know to who to replay... but will replay to you ^^.

I lived in USSR and its kinda wierd that I enjoy it.
We had food on a table all the time, house, 2-3 cars.
My dad had 2 bars that he was managering.

Didint had really a problem living in there, but there was people who had problems. Its in every country. There are people who are happy and thouse who are not.
Not talking about what Stalin did.

About the war that is going on... im for Russia.
Media is makeing money. If Russia wouldnt do anything to stop Georgia then media would write. "Russia dont care about there citicens etc" and they would blame Russia for not doing anything.

But then again.. cant make everybody happy.

fine, and what was the problems other people had? something about freedom of speech, human rights, KGB, political repressions, democracy, human rights? ah, nevermind - you had 2 or 3 cars so who cares about some unpleasant details, right? After all it's in every country LOL

Well that was a think... me or my family havent even notice that there was all thouse things. Only problem was that we didint get European stuff in store :(.

Now a day every persone thinks for him self :( that just how this world is working.

At USSR you were never afraid to go out at night, or thinking that somebody would come a rob your house when you are gone coz people say immidiatly who did it. Was kinda save.

Now if you go to Russia trye not to get robt :D

catholics have killed millions of people too, let's ban the cross

too much commies' propaganda.

it wasn't millions and difference between cross and nazi/soviet symbolic is that cross is symbol of christian (catholic) ideology of love, peace etc.

ever heard of the crusades?
ever heard of missionaries?
ever heard of the inquisition?
ever heard of the wars the popes waged?

Sure they took a longer time than the Sowjets or the nazis, but they are responsible for the death of million, too. And back then the population wasn't nearly as dense as today.

you didn't understand what i wrote, well. you are too stupid to get it so i'm writing it just to inform you.

:D

I like people like you, they make me laugh :)


A symbol is never what it is meant to be, but what people perceive it to be.
Swastika wasn't meant to be a symbol for killing all jews and laying waste to Europe, you know. (Oh wait, no you probably don't.)

And though it is not comparable the the swatika, the cross has over the years been a symbol of terror and suffering to many people.
For others, like me, it is a symbol of greed, lies and domination.

*sigh*

you're yet another german socialist, one of those guys who didn't want EU to accept Christian religion as fundament. this discussion leads to nowhere, so eot.

exactly.


and honestly Christianity had at least 1500 years to peacefully unite Europe, but instead they preferred attacking heathens, attacking the Islam, attacking protestants etc.
Then you leave the church et voilá: peace and cooperation.

Sure there was war in Yugoslavia, but there was religion invilved as well...


Anyway, you on the other hand are the reason why I'm not sure if admitting Poland was completely a good choice...

yes, but what Christian denomination?

The Eastern Orthodox Church is the second largest single Christian communion in the world. It is considered by its adherents to be the very same Church established by Christ and his Apostles.

surely our Christianity is bestest!!!11 everything else is degenerate and corrupted

religion = mystic brainwashing dividing people since ancient times

I agree with you. I think that idea of god is "irrelevant", my own philosophy is a bit more complex tho. Influenced a lot by fenomenology and Wittgenstein's works.

Yet it remains that christianity determined our culture. Our values, virtues, art and even science are strongly influenced by Christian religion. Most of Europeans were raised in Christian families. In western europe my generation is arleady raised in materialistic and nihilistic families.

It can be seen easily on this forum. Demiurge is one of those nihilistic and cynical intellectuals. They believe in unlimited freedom that is limited by power: freedom ends where your power ends.

i could argue that Roman/Greek culture influenced us more than Christianity in our everyday life..

i mean: Latin alphabet, Roman Law, fundaments of math / physics / biology / astronomy, philosophical movements, concepts of democracy / republic etc.

why not respect the Roman/Greek heritage and drop a word about Zeus / Jupiter Optimus Maximus in that EU constitution?

our numbers are from the arabs, human rights from the persian empire, most of science in the middle ages stolen from the islam and locked away by the church, ...

yes, let's give credit to everybody then! not only to the Christian church

that was my point.. a constitution shouldn't be spammed with useless information.

mfx is right, science was greatly influenced by the church it sure went downhill after Christianity came along... took us a thousand years to get back to the level the greeks/romans were at.

Medicine is a good example where advances were made only against the will of the church. And the aids / banning of condoms issue shows that not mcuh changed.

and you're just another polish nationalist who wants religion as a fundament for a state.

hence fundamentalist.

What's the popes' dick doing in your mouth?

I'm gonna write down on my shirt: don't bow, or I will give my penis smth to take care of. Is this looking like a threat to you?

No, why would they be

wearing a nazi symbol already does enough to make you look like a freak in public nobody wants to associate with, that's how this country works. as long as you aren't actively conspiring to break their shit or kill them then you can hate on anything as much as you like

the line is drawn at action. you can go on about how you hate blacks and jews all you like but when you incite actual harm against them that's when it becomes illegal. this interpretation of free speech in the constitution is actually one of the first things the supreme court did and will probably hold up forever

people wear communist propaganda all the time but ever since the soviet union fell the idea of communism has become more of a pop culture running gag than a legitimate threat to anything. there's one particular shirt i see a lot of people wearing that says "communist party" with marx, lenin, and stalin getting drunk on it

Good for you, in our "Democratic country" we got a few guys arrested due to historical WW2 reenactment today, they got fined for wearing soviet and german uniform during reenactment, and must destroy there uniform that they bought for more then 1000$...

And such flags would be illegal too in my country:
http://www.esreality.com/files/inlineimages/2...osium4.jpg
Cause they got that yellow thingy around them and doesnt meat etalon...some laws are so fucked up here

#2 gg :>

ah, come oh that was too easy.

I'm not into politics or anything of the like nor am I trying to sound like I'm some sort of analyst on the whole ordeal...

But doesn't the swift reaction of Russia to enter Georgian territory (South Ossetia) somewhat seem like they are attempting to set an example to other nations that they will do similar actions if they threaten Russian interests? (ex. the missile defence system the US and other countries wish to implement in the regions surrounding western Russia).

It just seems like Russia is flexing it's military muscle in order to show that they are willing to fight to protect their ideals... as shown in a previous post, the numbers for various units Georgia and Russia hold are so disproportionate that it seems almost surreal that Russia reacted with such force so quickly in territory that isn't actually theirs.

actually I thought at first, that the reaction was really fast, almost like they expected it...


(disclaimer: this was just me wondering a little)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/bakuceyan.jpeg

Russia has shown that they aren't afraid to threaten other countries in Europe that they would cut off gas. The pipeline through Georgia was built for BP and was built as a pro-Western statement towards Russia.

Maybe they were just waiting for a trigger to show that such a pipeline might not be as untouchable as thought? You know, let the rest of Europe feel that they still need Russia.

see bottom of comment #298

"it seems almost surreal that Russia reacted with such force so quickly in territory that isn't actually theirs. "

That region was never peacefull since 1989, and the tensions where heavily escalating for the last few months, regular Georgian spy planes flys over ossetia, regular ranged attacks from both sides, Georgia was arming intensively ever since Saakashvili came to rule + recent military maneuvers near the boarders, it was just a matter of time when full scale war breaks out... so its natural that Russia was well prepaired for this.

Officialy South Ossetia is part of Georgia, but in reality it was a russian muppet state ever since the fall of SU, so for them attack on SOssetia equals to attack on Russia.

Gotcha, I went ahead and read a bit more about the whole region and learned a bit more.

But doesn't the swift reaction of Russia to enter Georgian territory (South Ossetia) somewhat seem like they are attempting to set an example to other nations that they will do similar actions if they threaten Russian interests?

chage "Russia" for "US" and "Georgia" for Iraq, Iran or Latin American countries and you got yourself the same shit.

some photos worth a look http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/08/war_...setia.html

as always from the big picture

thought it was quite interesting to note that the news page I mainly visit, which isn't the most independent site, began their newest item on the matter with:

"What is war propaganda? What is the truth?"

and then proceeds to write down both Georgia's and Russia's comments. It is in German however, so no point in linking it.

spiegel-online süchtig? :D
geht mir auch so. und dem protagonisten in "Millionär" von Tommy Jaud.