CTF

TDM

TDM ftw

CTF

CTF.

TDM is more fun to play though.

So you're suggesting one is more fun to play, but the other is deeper and requires more teamwork etc.?

Elaborate please.

In my opinion, CTF is a "deeper" game because you need to do the following:

- escort the flag carrier.
- give your team mates accurate calls on where the enemy or team flag carrier is on the map.
- accurate calls for powerups and other items.

TDM on the other hand requires:

- time powerups and other items.
- accurate calls on where the enemy may be positioned (not a big issue if its a cess game).

Both game modes require similar amounts of team work, however CTF has more going on in the background. This is logical seeing as theres 2 extra items (the flags).

Still, I'd rather play a game mode focused on fragging, as aposed to objectives (flags). Personal preference I guess.

Anything that supposedly makes CTF deeper is also present in TDM:
- You need to escort and protect players
- Give accurate calls on the enemy
- Time items
- Co-ordinate
- Survive

The importance of surviving in TDM is so shockingly underrated it's amazing and the importance of surviving in CTF is restricted to certain situations.

There are more options from both the strategic and tactical point of view in TDM than there is in CTF which makes TDM the deeper game.

.

Good points.

TDM

TDM

TDM

btw did they ever give reasons for lowering the spawn time on weapons in QL?

(god, I hope I got the question right)

Not as such, it was just so newbies could get a weapon.

Are you on drugs?

I just didn't know if they lowered or raised the respawn time limits.

Drugs... pfff Does Fish Oil count as a drug? ;)

Nope :(

tdm ofc.

tdm

i like ctf more. i like ql tdm more then ql ctf though

TDM is a lot deeper than CTF when considering the dynamics and the players individual role within those dynamics. in CTF whilst teamwork is strong, it must be equally strong in TDM - and in TDM, it's rare that any one player is ALWAYS doing ONE job as it is in CTF. It's each players ability to be smart enough to guage the current scenario and to try and create the best possible outcome. As such, more skillsets are required overall to be successful in TDM.

Another way to look at it, if we take the three game modes:

Duel : Here it's nothing but you, one opponent, the map and the items on the map.

TDM : You, 3 team mates, 4 opponents, the map and the items on the map.

CTF: You, 3 or 4 team mates, 4 or 5 opponents, the map (which is symmetrical), and the items which are on the map (of which do not require rigorous control unless it's base or mid, and you spawn in base, and mid is normally just aiming eachother out to prevent attackers from reaching the flag with much HP or items.)

I'm not dissing CTF at all, as it's definitely very skilled too, but I still think that it's far more elaborate than duel and tdm. But then again I've never played proper high tier ctf. CPM CTF doesn't count because it's broken as hell.

In duel and tdm nothing is elaborated upon - the decision you make from the same position at the same time of a game could be correct in one game, but not the other. The dynamics are constantly changing, which is why static tactics are good to begin with, but the best players know how to adapt whilst maintaining strong teamplay.

Also another comparison in CTF and TDM - although I may be wrong, it'd be nice if someone could correct me if that's the case. In TDM you don't necessarily want 4 aim beasts on your team, you require each player to be smart to enable cohesive teamplay. In CTF, it's easy to have one player whose job it is to secure mid to just be an aim player, or likewise with flag defense. But I think depending on the map, flag defense requires some good brain too. But I would still contest not as much as TDM :-D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxHNhE5fPMg

on topic, having played both tdm and ctf on a (relatively) high level:

aim is MUCH more important in tdm, i'd even go as far to say that it's pretty much impossible to win a tdm game when you get outaimed since the goal is to get more frags whereas in ctf, good fc support and smart synchronized attacks can win you the game, even a defender doesn't need to have beastly aim, good positioning is very important

team play is so much more important in ctf, p1mps even won the 5th Q3TDM EuroCup just by cessing all the time!!

also, more communication is required (synchronize attacks, reporting incomings / escaping fcs / escort routes) and its very dynamic: positions aren't necessarily fixed, you can just as easily go 4 att 1 def one moment and 3 def 1 mid 1 att the other, fixed positions work to some extent but you get the best performance when all players (just as in tdm) can adapt to many situations and get a feel for where they are most useful on the map at any given time

yes, armor/weapon management is far more important in tdm but with the current 12s weapon respawns we have in ql, it's nothing but a mere team ffa

agreed!

he just raped each one of your points, you better agree.

team play is so much more important in ctf, p1mps even won the 5th Q3TDM EuroCup just by cessing all the time!!

That's a problem with VQ3TDM not TDM though, CTF restricts what you need to do and the team work involved whereas TDM doesn't.

how exactly does ctf restrict what you need to do?

The flags?

wow, you gave it some serious thought!!!

how about tdm: THE FRAGS? /facepalm

The flags narrow the strategic and tactical options available to the team.

explain

I'm not here to teach you.

good thing you ran away while you still could

Yeah, you're breathing down my neck with your awesome argument of how CTF is deeper because it is...

i never stated that you idiot

All your claims so far have been based around VQ3/QL TDM being shit rather than CTF offering anything more.

The things you claim are more important in CTF underneath are not more important at all. Communication and co-ordination are just as important in a TDM game in reality.

you just don't get it do you

i never stated that tdm was shit nor that ctf was better or deeper
both these gametypes are equally skillful according to me

stop hallucinating
stop trolling

They aren't equal.

one of these days people will realize that as long as games aren't very limited (e.g. tic tac toe) the depth in one match will always depend on what the players make of it not on what the game allows.

For example chess is a game that can be incredibly deep, yet a six year old can move the pieces.

The depth of chess decreases as you get better, though. =/

Go is deeper than Chess though :)

that is exactly my point: In reality, it is not.

However, it is somewhat difficult to explain.

the theoretical depth is higher, yes.
But the depth during an actual game is just as high as the players' (combined) abillity.

So, lets say the players manage a depth of 5 half-moves in chess which could be comparable to 5 stones placed in go. Then the games played have pretty much the same depth.

It doesn't matter that the go game usually goes on longer and therefore allows for more variations. You can't keep think them through anyway. And it also doesn't matter if the chess game will end in 8 moves or in 120, you cannot really cover that either.


Same in ctf and tdm, both allow for more depth than is actually done. For example you could plan every single attack to the extend of who takes what weapon, what route and has which powerup. And time it so that the ooponent is caught a little of guard because they were doing something else.

Of course, but that wasn't the question :)

I know it wasn't the question.
But imo it should have been ;)

Because imo it does not matter at all how deep it could be.

I was going to put in my reply to wch that depth doesn't matter as such but I couldn't think of a good way to put it.

A lot of the best games out there aren't all that deep as such at all.

While I do agree with what you are saying, what I wanted to say was that it does matter even less how deep it could be but more how deep it actually is (as in in a real match).


I disagree with your reasoning for tdm > ctf, btw.

Because in the end, just a impulse hinted, both modes only have a one-dimensional target function or rather one way to win. in ctf it's capturing more flags and in tdm it's getting more frags.

As a contrary example, in cs you have two ways to win: Either frag all the opponent or explode the target or defend (defuse, time's up).

I can't quite think how to express my view properly and concisely at the moment so I won't bother (I'm off to do stuff :P).

This is an interesting observation but I don't agree here. I want to stay on topic though.

Defining, talking about and settling on exactly what we mean by "complexity" is the first step, but I really don't want to go down that path of pedantic drudgery. We could talk about that for ages.

quickly though...

Just because a game is more complex than a player ever could play (or be) that does not mean the game CANNOT handicap the player in some way or on some level that another (more complex) game wouldn't.

So in a sense, yes indeed, the game being played matters.

NOW... CTF OR TDM?! ;)

oh sure it can handicap a certain player, but not in general.

Okay... moving on...

TDM or CTF?!

Personally I prefer tdm for q3. Though for the short time I played warsow I prefered ctf.

And in the end the game I love the most is rtcw, which is a more like ctf wiht frags not being counted and having certain objectives.


So my final answer is:

Yes!

RTCW <3

CTF would benefit greatly from being more like RTCW.

every game could :D

and yeah i also think QW or CPM tdm is miles better than VQ3 or VQL tdm

i agree.
and alltho i am basically a cpm tdm player, i have to say that compared to qw tdm, cpm tdm is shallow

Because of the lack of uber weapons?

because its very important which team gets the first RL for example, or how many rocket launchers your team has.
in cpm, it doesnt matter that much

What about q2 tdm? I haven't actually played it too much, I have just heard some (prolly biased) opinions about it being good, and would like to hear an experienced player's opinion. If you have one.

i never played q2 in a very good team but the games i played were always very fun, weapon/ammo dropping was nice, and controlling locations was much more important than in vq3tdm

Which is the most enjoyable in your experience? And if you had to choose one, which one would it be? TDM or CTF?

can't choose between the 2, seriously, but that's a good thing because i get bored easily if i play the same gametype for too long

i like the teamplay/communication involved in ctf and scoring caps with your team is very satisfying

i like the pureness of tdm and the bigger importance of controlling items

Why is CPM CTF broken? Ive played CPM for some time and switched over too QL. (Mainly/Only becouse of my friends)

And I must say. CPM CTF is trillion times more fun then vq3 CTF.
vq3 CTF feels like 50% aim, 30% Arsenal, 20% Brain.

"(Mainly/Only becouse of my friends)"

Me too. This time I could actually tell a few friends (gasp who I actually KNOW) to "download" a free game, and the clowns actually did it. This didn't seem to work with Warsow. I have no idea why it didn't, but it didn't.

That was my ONLY motivation for the cross-over from Wars/CPM to QL.

Of course I have to stick up for QL because it's simply BETTER than VQ3.

qw tdm

and as to what gametype is superior: this is a silly question, just play what you like best, we've seen great, skillfull matches in both tdm and ctf in q3, and it would be a big mistake and insult to label one gametype superior to the other

same with the whole promode vs osp debacle: we don't need these discussions!

for every reason someone lists why some gametype/mod is better, another person comes along and has his own valid reasons for disputing these claims

apples vs oranges, ofc

no, _everyone_ knows oranges are better

good old tdm oranges <3

I thought orange was ctfers preference ? everyone else switched to apples when angel said so

Not a silly question.

If I ask a bunch of people about the merits of a game, that is hardly a silly question. May aim is "input" from various sources. You're all telling me what you like better and why. In this case which is deeper.

You (and ddk) gave me the first "why" which I forgot to ask for.

Thanks

if you seriously believe that you are gonna get an answer as to which game or mod is the deepest, here on ESR of all places, you're sorely mistaken

people here will most likely just vote for their own favourites and (if they're not lazy) slap on some fabricated reasons why their game/mod of choice is superior

as you already know the whole point of promode (CPM) was to make vanilla Quake3 a deeper game, and they gave it some more thought than John Doe making a random and inherently biased post in this thread

You are wrong sir.

CTF

CTF once was a really nice game. Back in the quake 2 days. But ID came to the idea that removing the GRAPPLE would be good for the CTF community. Q3CTF was a pile of shit to be honest. It was DM with a flag.

Q2CTF was by far the best mod imo. Grapplemonkeys vs AIMwhores...so nice to watch :)

That's what I always thought. OSP/CPMA Vq3 CTF was always TDM+2flags.

q3cctf! \o/ q3cctf \o/

cpmctf

u

Decent TDM players can excel in CTF with little practice. Great CTF players with little TDM experience get utterly humiliated.

Good observation (if true).

Why do you think this is? You don't think AIM has anything to do with this?

Ok, but I'm not talking about q3 tdm and not ql tdm. -

TDM is more about being collective and intelligent. How and when to engage on certain areas in collaboration with your team mates.
Tactical possibilities with regards to weapon placement, powerups and armour on a given map are endless.

More on certain maps(DM14/OSPDM5/OSPDM6/CPM4) than other cessy(DM6) maps of course.

With each death you are punishing your team. A single weak link in a TDM team is immediately exposed as a huge liability. If all you've played is CA, FFA, Duels and CTF, you don't have certain important aspects of TDM in your playing style. The appreciation of having a strong a weapon for instance, but most importantly not dying in vain.

Getting the proper mindset will take time and more skill than you're used to. Meanwhile you're getting raped with a net -35.

A weak link in a CTF team can easily go unnoticed. Deaths usually aren't punished. Any idiot with proper movement can be an excellent CTF attacker. Any idiot with good aim can be a excellent CTF defender. As iniiiii pointed out, and impulse didn't grasp, the trivial strategies that are limited to just concentrating on the flags and bases in CTF greatly narrows further tactical possibilities as evident in TDM.

The "joke" that is QL TDM has now reverted back to the 30 sec respawn time for higher tiers btw.

Excellent.

if you have shit aim you can be as intelligent/collective as you want but you will never be good at tdm

tdm is ultimately about making more frags than your opponent, and having good aim is necessary for achieving that goal

I didn't say you would, good aim is important in all the mods. All good players are good aimers. But I wouldn't agree pure aim wins over intelligent play, team collaboration, map knowledge and strategy. Great aimers coming from other mods get owned in TDM time and time again despite their aim, simply because it takes time for them to get in the collective state required to have good results. (IC/p1mps are banned from this discussion)

closing your eyes from teams like p1mps proves my point

"Great aimers coming from other mods get owned..."
examples? or are you just making stuff up

So is this how it was with deegrollers matches in the eurocups, better aimers usually won?

What sort of example can I give you? I'm just saying that for new players, even if they have great aim from ctf, take some time getting the hang of tdm. Hardly news. Same deal for players new to ctf, only the transition will be easier since the gameplay and strategies are far simpler.

you cannot give examples yet you are so sure that transitioning from ctf to tdm is harder than vice versa :))))

I assumed this was common knowledge. And I suspect you agree but you're too stubborn to admit it. What sort of examples are you looking for anyway? Fine. In the fall of 2001 my friend Matthias was a great CTF player. One day he got the crazy idea in his head and registered for a TDM pickup. The map was CPM4. Despite his superb aim he had optained from playing CTF as a defender in his clan, The Railers, he totally sucked in the CPM4 match. He died a few weeks later.

and yes, i do think that the reason why deegrollers / gunk were able to reach a couple EuroCup finals was because of good tactics/teamplay, because everyone knows our aim didn't (and doesn't) match up to players like fox, toxic, stermy, prozac etc...

Precisely!

but we were never the best because of lacking aim?

I never said you could be the best without good aim, infact I said to be good you'll need good aim. To be the best you need (obviously) good aim but also and more importantly brains. Fox/toxic/Belth/gopher weren't just all-aim tdm players. Neither was unmatched.

My objection was to your comment that it would be "impossible" to win a TDM match with lesser aim than your opponent. I can't agree with that. Deegrollers were a top european TDM clan and like you said reached EC finals due to your teamplay/tactics. I'm sure you faced better aimers somewhere along the way. Or would you say that for most of the matches the better aimers won, regardless of brains?

ofcourse ic / unmatched etc were the best because they had both godly aim and superb tactics

all i'm saying is that tactics can only help you win a game if your aim also falls within a certain distance from your opponent's aim
and that distance got smaller and smaller the longer quake3 was played, nowadays aim is so much more important than tactics, its unreal

good thing that control seems to be more important in quake live

That's always going to be the case in a game where the primary method of interaction is shooting.

I can agree with that. My view is skewed to the point that I stopped following/playing TDM in 2003-2004. Wasn't all aim in the glory days.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I don't recall iC the best TDM clan at the time winning any CTF lans or cups. Look how well they did at qcon. :\
Clan 519 did well, but they practiced ctf a lot. Well and took advantage of a shit rule about flag hold time. They ended up losing though too. :D
Best fraggers/aimers are not going to win you a ctf game.

I agree, but you're deliberately exaggerating my view and then responding to that. Of course the best ctf clans beat the best tdm clans in their mod. Though it won't be as one sided as if it would be if it was the opposite.

Your Quakecon example is interesting. In quakecon 04 ctf, iC got to loser semi bracket final losing 1:2 (0-1, 1-0, 0-1) against Clan519. Clan519 would advance to lose (barely) against Cloud9 who finished second. iC was a strict tdm clan and still they managed held their own against a strong CTF team. The euro teams don't even play 4on4.

didnt you read what i said. Some of those ic guys actualyl played on ctf teams. Not strictly as you say. at quakecon there was a rule that if you had most flag time you could advance and win the game. Ya tdm teams could stack up play reallly good d and hope to grab flag and hide to make sure to have most flag time.

Like i said earlier and others said, which mode is your favorite you will argue with. I just think ctf is TDM + two flags.

Ya tdm teams could stack up play reallly good d and hope to grab flag and hide to make sure to have most flag time.

Yes, I've played in dozen LAN tournaments where flag time was the deciding factor. Unfortunately CTF can be that simple that way.

ya but tdm is even more simple. Because when you have to good teams going at it, all it is a cessfest. No real control. So keep spitting out this theory of how and what is wanted to be controled in a tdm game, but in reality, this stuff is not going on.


I mean look at dm7 games going on. Rush ra room nonstop for 20 minutes LOL.

Yes, there was later a consensus in the TDM community to abolish DM7 for that very reason. DM6 usually turns into a cess fest too, although keeping RG/RL/LG there is extremely important. In other maps coordinated weapon/YA/RA/MH control is always very important. Your description of TDM as a chaotic Blue vs Red FFA fits with TDM pickups but not organized LAN or teamspeak clan matches. And particularly not high level play in the old days. If that's all you saw you didn't get it.

oh and please describe some of those intricate tdm strategies you hint after, you will see most of them (if not all of them) can be and are being applied to ctf as well:

"How and when to engage on certain areas in collaboration with your team mates.
Tactical possibilities with regards to weapon placement, powerups and armour on a given map are endless."

the same for ctf m8

Weapon control is non-existent in CTF. Armors and MH are in your own base for your grabbing. The emphasis of controlling those areas aren't of the same nature.

people do time and control their own base powerups as well as time and try to snitch the enemy's powerups

granted, weapon control is of less importance (it's not non-existant, see rail@mid on wcp9), yet area control (mid, powerup rooms) is still very much so

of course they aren't of the same nature, they're different gametypes with different goals after all

It was you who said the strategies were the same. They're not and I don't think they're of equal depth. Cheers.

"It was you who said the strategies were the same."

you can't even prove this, let alone make one valid point

I can't prove what? Try reading your own posts.

i didn't state anywhere that strategies are the same in tdm and ctf...

anyway, this is going nowhere

bs


mega and armors are timed to the T by both teams. The other team is trying to get ur armors and mega health in base.

not really :} at least not as much as u say it

ICE CLIMBERS was destroyed by CTF teams in QuakeCON 2004 in LAN, thank you, next.

No, see #118. They finished fifth. Beating Negative Influence 3:2, with near losses against top CTF teams Clan519(1-2) and Cloud9 (1½ - ½). Mind you those are American clans and the game is 4on4. This should've been quite an advantage seeing that european CTF has always been 5on5 . Bringing up Quakecon only helps my point. You'd never see comparable results from a strict CTF team in an elite TDM tournament.

They lose 17 to 0 in q3ctf2 and 10 to 0 on cp9 against 32nd 1 week before QuakeCON. And if you actually understand something about CTF you will know that 4vs4 (2 guys less in the map) it's more aim what IC had in that time.
Have you ever really watch a real CTF tournament in your life?

lol

http://clanbase.ggl.com/news_league.php?nid=124147&lid=1355
http://clanbase.ggl.com/news_league.php?lid=1355
Pretty sure that's a strict CTF team taking 3rd in an elite TDM tournament, including a win against the consensus best TDM team in the world at the time.

aAa were playing Q3TDM with good results as far back as EC III. So no I wouldn't call them a strict CTF clan.

I could be wrong, but i believe thefou, raoul, and appleseed were all "strict" CTF players, and their traditional TDM lineup had been scrapped, and it was basically their CTF team plus kazuyama playing TDM that eurocup.

A quick glance through CB pages it seems aAa have had a variety of rosters, but still none of those players was new to competetive TDM during EC IX. But of course you're right in that they're more CTF oriented.

They weren't strict CTF players by any means and were very experienced TDM players by that point.

Edit: All of them were playing TDM for aAa by ECV.

i'm unsure about raoul but the other 3 played a lot of tdm and some duel so they weren't strict ctf'ers by any means.

thefou was the last to appear in a TDM ECgame during ECV.

did you move ?

same yrim from c9?

ql tdm just got enjoyable: http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php?p=170471

Alright ini. There you go...

Switch over, and play us!!! (us = me)

Are you sure you aren't on drugs? :s

Just giving you a slight ribbing.

oh cool, I actually wondered if they should split those servers.


sync should give me a plus, imo :P

ctf is better, but tdm has the better players =)

ql has a lack of good ctf maps, otherwise i would say CTF (q4ctf tbh tho ;p)

Iron Works and Siberia is pretty decent I must say. Altough im not a CTF'er

yeah but that's just 2 maps, kinda sucks to only have 2 good maps in a mappool of 5 maps (e.g. for a league)

I bet Inner Sanctums could do a good map without the runes, and with rail in the middle of the bridge to prevent camping at top base entrances

that would certainly improve it by a lot

ntf

It seems all the tdmers are talking about theory. Because every tdm match I see they are just ffa around. Maybe there is some control in the chaos, but I rarely saw anybody ever controlling weps like it's being said in this thread. Armors yes. Certain areas yes. But not to the depth that is being represented in this stupid thread.


Anyways, you will never come to a true answer - those who favor ctf will argue for it and those who favor tdm will argue for it. If the proper answer is just who can make the better argument, well than so be it.

What TDM games are you watching?

I've watched pretty much alll tdm games from europe.

you seemed to have missed some stuff then. on dm6/dm7/osp5/osp6 rail is timed - on dm14 rl (at ra) is timed - on cpm4 shaft is timed.
timing armors and powerups is a given anyway.

[edit] this was an example for a team in control of the map. of course the items change depending on how the game goes... eg. you lose ra on dm14 you will start timing shaft and lower rl or on dm6 and osp5 you may start timing shaft etc. on osp5 you would also time weak rl.

two goods - it will be a kill/cessfest. random spawn find wep/team. Try and get ra/pu back.

in cess/aimfest games if your unable to aim as good or somewhat close to the other team you will most likely lose. that's pretty much when you'd go back to timing weapons to have a chance of getting back into control.
in my experience from past cb cups we had to do this a lot (or lose) simply because the other team would plain outaim us when we tried to just cess them.

The guy doesn't understand a thing about TDM, nor has he watched it much.

This isn't really AT you stunt, but you gave me an "in" - a spring board to say a few things.

Usually people try to discourage this kind of discussion in fear of getting their feelings hurt about THEIR game being talked down about.

I have my own philosophy about not FINDING the "old" threads and posting a few comments there. But that is for another time. Few would share my opinion on redundancy.

I noticed you got a +ed, and it seemed to share a general opinion that impulse talked about. Why?

Do they HATE talking about this? Do they not want to think about which mode is better or why? Is there any self reflection or even thought about how or why a "they" started playing or are playing a specific mode? Have they given another mode a shot to know if they like it or not?

See, I don't know.

You:
"stupid thread"

Impulse:
"same with the whole promode vs osp debacle: we don't need these discussions!"

or

"if you seriously believe that you are gonna get an answer as to which game or mod is the deepest, here on ESR of all places, you're sorely mistaken"

What's funny about Impulse is he was wrong AS he was typing the second statement. I kept my mouth shut, because god knows what kind of angry diatribe would come out from that guy. However, he broke his own rules thank god and contributed to the conversation. So props to him.

It's just talk. There is no right "answer." This is a FORUM. The last time I looked this is supposed to be about discussing opinions and other matters. In my opinion if we started this conversation ANEW every January, that would be fine by me. For any peeps that care the words are different and the discussion is different even though it's about the same thing. Opinions change, and I have more than once seen a player be stubborn about a thing, and then change his mind. Since this player has already posted on said thread, there opinion lies in limbo, and they will not comment again, or reverse opinion. Blah blah blah Let's just say I think redundancy is a good thing sometimes.

We all have opinions. Great. We all like our specific games. Great. No harm in talking about it. For each peep who reads through this, they may actually learn about themselves and the game modes just a little bit more than if they hadn't. Same goes for the people doing the typing.

More people read forum threads than say, reading a CTF guide. Collateral damage, but in this case... there is no damage.

you're wrong as in:

- i play both tdm and ctf, regularly, i think both gametypes have their own merits and none can be labeled as superior over the other

- you say i contributed to the conversation, i disagree: i was merely trying to point out that claims people make why one gametype would be superior can easily be debunked, i NEVER answered your question, hence i didn't break my own rules

"What's funny about Impulse is he was wrong AS he was typing the second statement. I kept my mouth shut, because god knows what kind of angry diatribe would come out from that guy. However, he broke his own rules thank god and contributed to the conversation."

- why would i be angry? i don't defend either tdm or ctf, im not biased and i think both are great, the only thing that irritates me are narrow minded people who go on a holy crusade trying to defend their choice as the only one that matters

"why would i be angry?"

I don't know. Perhaps you don't get that way. You just came across that way. No big deal... I just saw some "name calling."

" i play both tdm and ctf, regularly, i think both gametypes have their own merits and none can be labeled as superior over the other "

totally agree there

I played a few QL tdm and ctf pickup games and I rly have to say...
CTF sux in QL if u have played cpm/wsw(0.3) ctf or ntf
TDM is ok

or q4ctf :/

NTF - what a cool mode!!! I'm pissed off because I never bothered to play it, or pursue it in some organized manner. The same goes for CTF in general.

My hope is that this mystery mode being developed behind the scenes for QL will be some iteration of NTF or some other class based game with "objectives".

The original ET is a masterpiece and I think Quake Wars has some really interesting gameplay. Pity the engine it runs on is ABSOLUTE DOGSHIT.

Team Fortress 2 is a really great game but the spy class just wrecks it for me. Some invisible noob running around eh? Total bullshit in my opinion. Other than that, the entire game is about as good as you're gonna find in this commercial industry.

u have to be joking. play a clan game and ull realize its the exact reverse.

Ctf is flawed as long as is doenst have a grappling hook.

Why?

I'm a total CTF n00b but I don't see why grappling hooks unbreak the mode.

makes the 3rd dimension usefull, opens up tight based and creates an entire new freedom of movement.

does the q2 hook have a delay? the further the point u want to hook on the longer it takes?

dno bout q2. Only played qwctf and q3cctf which both had that delay yes.

ah lol i thought it was q2ctf u were talking about :} for whatever reason

and i can't agree more with you that qlctf is just bad :/

there's always someone who mentions grappling hook

TDM is very simple: die less often then your opponents
and share weapons and items with your team members.

CTF is a lot more about teamplay. you need a proper defense who will make sure the flag stays where it should be and you need some guys who know how to get a flag accross the map.


TDM is a lot more about individual skill.
a good TDM'er can make a fine CTF defender. a good CTF'er is definately not automatically also a good TDM'er. Usually not at all even.

but still, anyone can play TDM. try to die as little as possible, play careful.. etc..... and you can win.
CTF you need to understand what to do and when to do it.. etc..

tdm for new players although is way more frustrating than ctf, e.g. because of the 5 second weaponrespawn

possibly, but i think a larger aspect of that frustration is the fact that in CTF its easy to score points
while in TDM is obvious if you suck since the scoreboard shows very clearly the amount of kills and the amount of deaths :P

while in CTF if you died 70 times in 20 min but still managed to make 2 caps, you did a very good job

My question is in general. Take VQ3 if you have to. Change spawn times around - whatever it takes to qualify YOUR personal idealization of the mode(s).

The problem with your argument is it requires that we assume TDM as a concept must play like VQ3 TDM (same goes for stunt.us and impulse here) and be a cessy ffafest where aim trumps everything.

You only have to look back to when VQ3 TDM was at its strongest to see that the most dominant team by far was SteLam, zyz, Kane and Slinger. I'm sure I don't have to explain what that team was famous for.

I'm sure I don't have to explain what that team was famous for.

for stelam's insane mg on dm7? :p btw i played kane last night and some of the old sk members are around again \o/

They had good aim of course, but it was their teamwork that won them games :)

Did anyone ever make a u/sk TDM frag movie?

q4ctf

Q2CTF!

q4ctf

Q2CTF!

Obviously the mod i play.

WAZAP WAZAP!

Phegget

CTF is just DM with flags in QL most of the strat has been removed with how powerful LG is in the mid game. Japanese Castles is about the only map left that requires some brain on where to be instead of just chasing kills. Players like id just stacking up and going rambo is nice, but it is what it is a very basic strategy. I more prefer the days when Yrim and cl0ck were like siamese twins on offense they played so well together but now the better strat is just stacking one offensive player. 519 really brought the style to CTF but not many people could execute it in q3, and good offensive teams could beat it like aAa and c9.

TDM is much deeper

neither.

Ive played both a lot, and even tho TDM is "deeper", CTF is much more fun.

ca ofc

CTF.

No one should talk seriously about team death match in 2013. If you want to play a team game, and you choose TDM, you are behind on pretty much every advancement in FPS team gaming in about 12 years.

CTF is reacher due to balance in individual play, team role play, flow, and positioning. Communications are much more meaningful and aim skill gaps naturally fade in this environment.

PS: I used to compete in TDM and with time and exposure to other games I realized how pointless 4v4 killing for points match is. Started to play CTF instead.

CTF

1. DUEL
2. TDM
3. CTF
4. CA
5. FFA

FFA >>>>> CA

TDM

Less posty, more streamy.
























Pretty plox. <3

Surprise, surprise..

CTF game is better but the TDM community is better.

euro = TDM / NA = CTF.. majority at least.