Nice !

Mine was better.

The AGP will be sponsoring 24 online tournaments in 2009 in Duel, CTF, and CA.

what? online and ctf/ca instead of tdm? you gotta be kidding me ctf with those maps we have right now...

lol? and what tdm maps are there?

6, 7 and 14 but you already knew this... compare to what's left in ctf and realize what i meant. i used to love q3ctf :|

CTF has more good maps then TDM, DM6 and 7 are poor excuses for a map :/

ctf and tdm ftw!

the most important link is neither in the news, nor in the official announcement http://www.agptour.com/competitions/

You should already be used to eat that PR BS with them.

so here's the answer to my question "what happened to agp?".

no money whatsoever =(

“The AGP is the next step in establishing Quake Live and first person shooters as a true professional sport.”

>>>

AGP Duel Open - $250

i dont mind the prize money. its a regular few bucks and the whole structure seems fine.
i mean, its a start.

but your right, when i read “The AGP is the next step in establishing Quake Live and first person shooters as a true professional sport.” i was laughing hard.
seriously, quit this shit. e-sport isnt sport and thats fine...

well i don't even know is it reasonable to expect any sponsors whatsoever to put some money into it

There are sponsors and they will be announced with the tournament details shortly. The prize money listed is from the AGP directly sponsoring the events.

ok

http://www.agptour.com/competitions/

so tournaments will be different from that? why would you make an initial announcement like this without mentioning the sponsors? looks weird to me

The sponsor of the tournament prize amount listed is the AGP. Additional sponsors will be mentioned soon.

Please, consider the ESR crowd when posting news and do less PR stunts and more info like this and some other that you posted in the comments. Or at least comment on it just after you post the news, I'm pretty sure you'd get a whole new, better impression.

"e-sport isnt sport and thats fine..." - depends on where you live

when it comes to quake, it doesn't matter where you live.

starcraft in korea is the only thing in what you can refer to.

eSports in an official sport in China too, any game is. I think it's the same with Denmark and a few other countries too.

how much they earn? I dont really think eSports is a real consideration as a career compared to real jobs... After all, you will benefit more from real job and you will get payed better.

It's not a sport because they earn salary or because you can make your job out of it (as you can play football for example without it being your job, it still is a sport), but because their government has said it to be a sport

same applies for the vast majority of people in regular sports

thats not what i meant . its not about the definition. i just hate to see ppl compare e-sports to real sport and try to structure it that way and make it look like it is a real sport. its not. e-sport has its own structure, community and broadcasting. just built it up from there and dont try to force something onto it...

absolutely true, e-sports aint really a real sport, atleast from spectator viewpoint which makes it impossible to fund..

so the hundreds of thousands of spectators that have been to eswc, wcg, esl, and hundreds of other events were not spectating?

they spectate because they play the game. They dont spectate just because spectating is fun like in REAL SPORTS.

.

Poorly done and stolen from noxene (only the text is mine), but feels about right


Edit: On a second thought, would've changed the FFFFUCK to a facepalm if I had the time and skills :)

HAHAHAHAHAHHA :D:D:D::D:D

awesome ;d

hahahhahahahha

2v2 in CA out

Clan Arena?
WTF? It's not a serious mode, how could they pick it over TDM?

in NA almost nobody plays tdm.. ca is way more popular here. I can't speak for EU tho.

For fun, maybe.
But CA for competition? IMHO it's too primitive and lacks any depth to be considered a competitive mode. And also, it's extremely boring to watch.

sounds sick fun to watch to me

The euro "events" could be TDM.

TDM has not been forgotten. As a players association, the players can easily vote it as a branch like the others. In fact, something will be presented to the community about this very shortly. Even 2v2 is possible with the AGP.

Cool.

why say "even" 2v2 tho? Considering the state of QL TDM as of this day, I'd say it's at least as good of a choice as TDM is, if not better considering how American TDM scene sucks.

I actually like the idea of CA in a competetive format, should make for some entertaining matches

americans.

Cool stuff.

cpl ?:)

ca go

200$ and payout to top 8?

#8 gets a cookie.

and #7 get's a hug.

You guys have this all wrong:

First prize is a new Cadillac El Dorado.

Second prize is a set of steak knives.

Third prize is you're fired.

Patel"? Fuck you. Fucking Shiva handed this guy a million dollars, told him "Sign the deal!" he wouldn't sign. And the god Vishnu too, into the bargain. Fuck you, John!

<3 that film

haha yeah, it definitely has some great lines. :D

just love how it's driven by the speech

little plot, just amazing dialogue :D

Well yeah, but a lot, if not most, of Mamet's stuff is that way. :)

"What you are here to do is to help us...NOT FUCK US UP. Does that seem clear to you?...you company man."

"But...my daughter..."
"FUCK YOU."

lol

"Membership prices for the 2009 season are $29.95"

if u devide by the number of tournaments its rly nothing.

Considering the current situation with sponsors, this is quite nicely organized. So gamers can self sustain them self. its basically only depends on us. The larger the number of members the better it is. And additional sponsor contribution is then imminent...which then starts a great circle.

lol that's like 5 euro. are you poor or something?

HAHAHAHA, an American says $29.95 = €5 :D

selfowned

really?

This is the USA $, isn't it? The official currency isn't 6:1, even in recession.

not you god damn it

lol, kinda the wrong guy to reply to, even tho I do that too :)

well i was commenting on your post about the guy above =/

yeah, as I said, I do that too, its just a bit awkward considering the reply system.

hardly. i'm not the poor bastard who can't afford $30. and you're from lithuania... that's like being from alabama.

He's saying WHY he wouldn't want to pay those 30$.

And no, being from Lithuania isn't like being from Alabama, I bet you hardly know anything about Lithuania. Some of you usa ppl always like to point out how every country that you don't know much about is poor, shitty or just 3rd world, but seriously, you should be #1 for that kind of attitude to be at least understandable. And no, USA isn't #1, not anymore, that's why I thought an american pointing out that 5 euros are about equal to $30 was funny in the first place ;)

i bet he even dont know where LT is on map :]

Considering he compares it to Alabama, that is to be expected.

hahahah you're as ignorant as you accuse me of being.

Care to elaborate?

you're being trolled by vorpal

:(

This will help support Quake in the future and give the players the rules and maps that we all want, and not end up with maps we don't.

We need to support something like this, these steps (even if some are small) are necessary for Quake in E-sports. We can do better then one LAN a year.

Let's go!

And what maps do we want?
I doubt you will ever get a community that agrees on that subject.

Seriously tho, if there's not enough of TDM players in America, go for 2v2. Otherwise, TDM ftw!

Isn't the prize money basically coming out of our pockets from that 30$ entry fee?

$5000/$29.95= 167ppl
So they really just need ~200 people from NA and ~200 ppl from EU to sign up and they are covered for 2009. But imo that is really unrealistic, so I guess I could be wrong. I suppose just decent portion comes from the fee.

Sounds fun though.

theres nothing wrong with that, but if they don't get enough paying signups the whole thing will quickly crash.

or hey it might just be a big scam to get money and they never pay out :)

nah, jarod is behind this..so u can at lest be sure that there are nothing but good intentions behind this.

and as i said be4:
if u devide by the number of tournaments its rly nothing.

Considering the current situation with sponsors, this is quite nicely organized. So gamers can self sustain them self. its basically only depends on us. The larger the number of members the better it is. And additional sponsor contribution is then imminent...which then starts a great circle.

.

uve gotta be joking if u think 200 americans are going to sign up to have 30 bucks go down the drain to a bunch of guys whove all been playing quake for 10+ years.

i would much rather pay id that much if it means they actually start doing some work on this fucking game.

you must have missed this part

"But imo that is really unrealistic"

As 2GD mentioned in his post a while ago, we need more hype!!!

If people idolize the top players and would feel priviliged just to play in the same tournament as them, maybe even be lucky enough to play an actualy match against them, then they would show up for these LAN's. Even though it would just be a certain expense with no chance of winning.

Every minor CS-LAN is asured a much larger attendance because of this. As soon as top team announces its participation the word spreads and minor teams that maybe were in doubt if they wanted to go suddenly shows up just to play and meet them. People have their favourite teams and players which they are proud just to get their ass handed by, or maybe just get a shot at. Who knows, if they will actually put up a good fight against them. It usually brings them attention and new clan offers. Allows them to move up the ranks in the community.

This sort of approach would be nothing but beneficial and very healthy for the Quake community. Would perhaps allow people to organize minor LAN's with much higher chances of succes.

thats all very good and nice. and yes the basic idea behind the whole thing makes some sense. its just how hes gone about doing it thats just stupid.

if his plan is to take this big with lan events etc in the future, then he shouldve waited until he had a sponsor for a big event (of the scope of the ESL IEM us duel thingy lets say) and then announced the tour along with that piece of news. if it isnt going to be a big thing he shouldnt be putting idiot words like professional and gamers together in the first place and if its going to be another cevo type deal he should just work on getting a few sponsors for some minor online events and fuck the membership fee, cos it isnt like his current website or the tournaments warrant full-time work anyway, a bunch of guys have been doing it part time fairly decently at clanbase etc isnt it?

CA is teh shit give us TDM

You know what the saying "the shit" sounds like in English, right?

gief 2v2!

can't wait :)

This is naive. How many people here are willing to throw away 30 dollars to play in some lame series of turnaments with minimum payouts? After all, the majority of people suck at quakelive. How can you expect the suckers to cough up 30 dollars when you offer them nothing in return? The website sucks, it's boring, doesn't make the tournaments or organization look the least bit interesting. Why would any sponsor ever invest in a series of online tournaments with no platform for them to advertise/make money off their investment? I'd pay money to see their sponsorship proposal...assuming they have one. Just for giggles.

Truthfully I don't want this to fail. It would be cool if something constant like this could exist. It's impossible though, with their visible model being so shit. I hope I have to eat my words, but I would never pay 30 dollars to sign up. Alright maybe I do want it to fail. Yes.

It's an entrance fee for tournaments, so you would have to pay just to play, and $30 a year is a GOOD deal.

Even if it was just that, is it really THAT expensive? AGP is funding this, and if more sponsors come in, that's only going to ADD to it. It's not like they have Intel, but Intel doesn't see a huge return, so they remove money, and it ends up being worse. It can only get BETTER at this point.

Plus, your membership would allow you to set a standard for Quake rules, etc. That way, when a league is sanctioned, they use the map pool that the community likes, not what they like. This would avoid dumb map rules like the ones at Quakecon 2009.

You act like you exactly know how this is going to play out, as if you know their model and advertising strategies. You know nothing, stop making such poor assumptions.

You act like you exactly know how this is going to play out, as if you know their model and advertising strategies.

One word: seventeen.

I have a pretty good idea. They want this to be self-sustainable clearly. Asking for players money so they can cover the initial investments that sponsors have made. How many players do you think are going to pay 30 to play? What do you get for that 30 dollars? Login to a lame site and play in some typical online tournaments that you could play in for free elsewhere. The website itself offers nothing to the player. There is no place for user-generated content, similar to esreality or even youtube. This is where self-sustaining income comes from, the users themselves and their ability to create content to build a site that they are a part of. Memberships allow users to create this content. In the case of AGP you pay 30 dollars to be a part of their hopeful money-making scheme.

Really? A free tournament? Yeah, clearly a free tournament is better, because we've seen SO MANY of those with MONEY. No, we haven't. There's been only ESL so far that's been free, and has given prize money. That's one tournament. God forbid you PAY to win something!

You do get things for the $30, I just told you. You can contribute to the process of deciding maps and rules. Don't like the rules? Your voice is heard, if you're a member. When other tournaments like ESL are sanctioned by the AGP, and you as a player don't like it, you have input for it. Not a member? Zero input.

It offers plenty to the player. It cost $40 to compete in ONE WSVG event (LAN) and if you went to ten of them, that's $400. $30 a year is a good deal for that many tournaments.

Obvious you read nothing, because there's no other sponsors, only AGP at this point. Yes, I'm sure there's ones in the working, so prize money would only go UP at that point.

All you negative assholes bitch and complain about zero Quake tournaments, yet when one comes along and doesn't fit your JESUS ruleset, you bitch and complain. Companies are coming out of recessions, and it's not easy to start something in this market, especially something like this. So asking for money is completely understandable. The hypocrisy in this community is fucking ridiculous. You want tournaments, yet you bitch on this.

Maybe it will be free in 2010? Who knows?

All the assholes here did this with Gamebattles. Bitch and complained about PAYING to WIN money, and they removed it and stopped it. That probably 100% removed ANY chance from MLG (A very profitable league) from using it in its PC circuit. None of you think before you speak, or think before you do. You just [b]do[/], and we're all being punished for it. Sorry Quake Live isn't like the fucking shitty CPM community where you have literally 17 players playing in zero tournaments.

.

4. He's an idiot

.

Oh no, maybe I want to see e-sports grow, with Quake. This helps it. You hurt it.

.

E-sports exists whether you like it or not, sorry.

.

MLG and ESL just proved you wrong.

.

MLG does, and it's the most profitable and best run league for E-sports outside of Korea.

.

MLG is not cashflow positive! MLG had their third round of investments.

http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Art..._aid=97881

10 + 25 + 7,5 = 42,5 mill usd

shutting down gotfrag and cutting back on other stuff for this year´s season kind of makes it obvious that they are saving money.

This just proves how well MLG is doing, and showing its positive future. It just proves my point =)

you are not in finance are you?

it would be a good thing if the rounds of financing would increase every time (stakes given out remain at the same size and valuations of those stakes rise). this does not really look good. they do not increase anything but more like cut back on a lot of stuff and look to get cash flow positive.

eswc got more rounds of financing too and in the end was owned by the bank. maybe you have a way to find out how much percent of the company was acquired by investors each time.

Online traffic grew 1337% from the prior year

Just wanted to make sure everyone else saw that.

BTW, MLG started making money in either 2008 or just this past year. I remember reading about it months ago. An additional 10 million in investments means they plan on growing even bigger and faster within the next year or two, It's a sign of success, because nobody would give more money to a failing business.

nobody would give more money to a failing business.

Clearly not aware of America.

yeah 1337%, that is like when other organizations increase their numbers by 666%

there is no way these numbers were fabricated to entertain a specific crowd. afaik there is no statement on record that they will be cash flow positive this year or next year. so far there is just the word spreading they might be cash flow positive this year or the next but given the economy in the US it will be very tough to get there.

you can be 31337% sure that they will release another press release once they start to make money and do not need investments anymore. the EA deal looks good for them, cutting down gotfrag to volunteers only, and having less events might help them to do so.

ESL do charge, you need to be a premium member to play in any of their cash tournaments

Where did you read that?

I run a team, I cast their events, I cover their events any number of these three reasons tell me you need to be an ESL premium member to enter their cash tournaments, its something like 4.95 euro a month and you need to be premium for the duration of the event.

The last Q3 EMS didn't require Premium. Maybe you shouldn't generalize too quickly.

Its hardly a generalisation if 99% of their cash tournaments require a subscription, you may have found the exception to the rule!

How about the IEM QL 1v1 American Championships or the EMS5 QL TDM?

Is it really a problem if ESL requires premium for it? Besides the fact that you get other stuff like high quality stream with it, ESL has at least proved themselves.

We know ESL isn't a scam, we know ESL will remain and provide high quality tournaments and that cash prices will be paid. An organization like AGP can't boost with that, at least not yet. ESL started to produce tournaments before they started to charge for participating in them, AGP does the opposite, it charges before it has even started to run tournaments.

That's only me trying to annoy tosspot, don't worry :)

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2.50 Euro a month via credit card iirc needed for Pro Series, Masters, and .. i do not remember

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Dude, i'm surprised you haven't figured it out yet.

Gillz has high hopes of being recognized as one of his e-heroes in a non distant future.

You should see how much effort he puts in his pro gamer character on facebook.

Amazing !

all while he shits on people who play for fun and still rape him blind.

You obviously play for competition if you're competing in a league like ESL. Like I said before (Which you refuse to understand, or flat out don't) is that I critisized your play style, it's nothing personal. You should either be valueing opinions, or take it as a grain of salt. Don't judge people that maybe offer some advice. Many people agree that your play style is questionable (mid-high tier players) so it's not like I'm alone in it. Seriously, don't take it personal.

-I play competitively because it's fun to me?

-"Don't judge people that maybe offer some advice."
You did not offer advice. There was nothing constructive about it. No advice dealt out. Pure shit talking was what it really was.

-"Many people agree that your play style is questionable (mid-high tier players) so it's not like I'm alone in it."
I'm convinced you don't even know what is going on in a game and you just take your opinions from other people. Do I attack at dumb times sometimes? Sure. Do I go into fights knowingly down by 100+ health? Hell yeah. Exact science isn't an exact science. Maybe I'm pissed or trying to get a kamikaze kill. Who cares.

I was merely frustrated by being teamed up on a view I disagree with. Doing questionable attacks or w/e in a game is just another name for a mistake, and we all make mistakes. Simply put , you're in no position to critique other player's styles, but this is the internet so you can shit talk all you want. I'm just telling you I will write-off anything you say as comical nonsense.

LOL at gillz trying to criticize your playstyle

Do I attack at dumb times sometimes? Sure. Do I go into fights knowingly down by 100+ health? Hell yeah. Exact science isn't an exact science. Maybe I'm pissed or trying to get a kamikaze kill. Who cares.

Right on!

The best victories come form overcoming bad odds, not from slaughtering the defenseless!

Sarcasm? I hope so.

=\

My Jesus ruleset walks on water.
Its favorite map is qztourney7.

You get a lot for paying to go to/participate at a LAN, that is a different situation altogether. A LAN event gives you real social interaction with your peers. An online competition doesn't provide any of the benefits for players or sponsors that a Lan does. Leave that out of it.

Tournament organizers often listen to the community's opinion about maps and rule sets already, even without a player's organization. It would be nice to have direct input with voting, HOWEVER, no other tournaments are a part of the AGP yet. It would have been beneficial to announce that x, y and z tournaments are a part of AGP so when you pay 30 dollars you get to vote on the rules and map pools. That is not the case so as it stands you pay 30 dollars to do jack shit.

On top of that, even though it would be nice to be able to vote, it's stupid to put the map pool into the players hand. You'll end up with the same lame old maps being played for the next 10 years. Siiiiiick of it.

I think there are ways that this could work out. I just don't see any good coming out of their current visible model. They really should have taken a look at the GameBattles failure before going through with a nearly identical plan. It's even more expensive.

It will have to be free in 2010 if they want to continue Gillz. That is the inevitable outcome.

You can edit the post and change where the reply goes too!

nice!

Your WSVG point is faulty, when it comes to WSVG you pay $40 for the LAN. This is online only, if they did like dreamhack and had a LAN then it would certainly be worth it.

use reply?
cyou can still click edit and change the "reply to" field

Oh I did, on all three of them I just opened it in a new tab and that apparently ignores the post that you want to reply to.

yeah well i could have guessed someone who signed up 04 knows how to use reply ^^
but well with less than 10 posts a year, you might have forgotten how it works ;)

Really? A free tournament? Yeah, clearly a free tournament is better, because we've seen SO MANY of those with MONEY. No, we haven't. There's been only ESL so far that's been free, and has given prize money. That's one tournament. God forbid you PAY to win something!

Tournaments without prizes don't hurt the community. The more people that sign up, the less chance you have of MAKING money. Consider the target audience, and the small size of the community who even play outside of a competitive scene.

You do get things for the $30, I just told you. You can contribute to the process of deciding maps and rules. Don't like the rules? Your voice is heard, if you're a member. When other tournaments like ESL are sanctioned by the AGP, and you as a player don't like it, you have input for it. Not a member? Zero input.

The only thing you have placed with value to this cost is a vote. You have created a solution to a problem that only exists because of your solution. It's the same as religion. Then you go on to say...

It offers plenty to the player. It cost $40 to compete in ONE WSVG event (LAN) and if you went to ten of them, that's $400. $30 a year is a good deal for that many tournaments.

...which is much like the female mentality that is inclined to purchase something simply because it's on sale, regardless of a need or use for the item.

Obvious you read nothing, because there's no other sponsors, only AGP at this point. Yes, I'm sure there's ones in the working, so prize money would only go UP at that point.

You are vehemently defending a hypothetical scenario. The prize pool isn't the problem, anyway.

All you negative assholes bitch and complain about zero Quake tournaments, yet when one comes along and doesn't fit your JESUS ruleset, you bitch and complain. Companies are coming out of recessions, and it's not easy to start something in this market, especially something like this. So asking for money is completely understandable. The hypocrisy in this community is fucking ridiculous. You want tournaments, yet you bitch on this.

What is it about this that you don't get? For one, this "organization" has NO leg to stand on at this point. Each failure of any organization only HURTS future sponsorship and game choice decisions. Quake is not at a point where it could ever work.

All the assholes here did this with Gamebattles. Bitch and complained about PAYING to WIN money, and they removed it and stopped it. That probably 100% removed ANY chance from MLG (A very profitable league) from using it in its PC circuit. None of you think before you speak, or think before you do. You just do, and we're all being punished for it. Sorry Quake Live isn't like the fucking shitty CPM community where you have literally 17 players playing in zero tournaments.

Trying to jump the gun into Starcraft proportions won't work. In order to get to a point where Quake could be even remotely viable for that would require seeding slow growth. Cash prizes, even with sponsorship, will still never be as good as a part time job with minimum wage.

Trying to jump the gun into Starcraft proportions won't work. In order to get to a point where Quake could be even remotely viable for that would require seeding slow growth. Cash prizes, even with sponsorship, will still never be as good as a part time job with minimum wage.

1. Then if it needs slow growth, what's wrong with this?
2. This isn't the "MAKE MORE THAN MINIMUM WAGE ASSOCIATION" and never said it was trying to be that.

1. Then if it needs slow growth, what's wrong with this?

This isn't slow. In order for Quake to be ready for such a venture, it would need far more players. You need to start by promoting participation (and general interest in the game), not by promoting competition and promises of spoils that 99% won't see.

2. This isn't the "MAKE MORE THAN MINIMUM WAGE ASSOCIATION" and never said it was trying to be that.

The point is, players will not make a profit on this, even if it had a $40,000 prize pool. You can't justify any prize pool that could possibly be offered for Quake with an entry fee. The value of a free to enter tournament (regardless of even the existence of prizes) far outweighs the media hype of something like this.

So you rather be lied to about a large amount of prize money then be promised a small one?

The prize money is of no importance. If they had to have no prize money, but no entry fee, it would still be better for the future of the game.

esl? fnatic? excello?

I bet that a few people would perhaps pay some small amount of money /year to play against/with the likes of coller, tox, fox, stermy, cypher and perhaps even purri... :) It's a good start! Not to mention all the community goodies that comes with it = United scene, our rules, our votes and so on.

In that dreamland,

idiots pay 40$ a year to get rolled 40-0 by their e-heroes, learning about 0.000005% of the game facets, all that in 10 mins.

Too early.
Not enough players to sustain it.

20 pros and 40 scrubs.

Thats my guess.

There's open/amateur tournaments.

I AM NOT GONNA PAY FOR IRC :<

sending a pm is so hard!

.

.

Funny that 99% of those cups offer zero prize money.

.

If we don't know that stuff, isn't that a bigger reason not to pay? When they make a transparent organization with all that info on the site then I'll pay.

true, website is horrible..

I'd say the $30 is just so they have some cash to pay for website hosting, refs and to encourage players to show up on time. Paying for organization and streetrunner's hours of work... a foreign concept.

Indoor soccer leagues are like $80 or 90 per player. Granted it's not online, and there are rental fees, etc, but $8 or $10 per tournament isn't that bad provided there's actual organization. It seems many people are justifying the entry fee by there being prizes. I think this is faulty logic... there are three players in most tournaments who should be willing to pay entry fees for prize money. The entry fees should be viewed as having a more reasonable use, such as covering organizational costs so players can have properly run leagues with one or two paid staff members.

If the players aren't serious enough or don't enjoy the game enough to put up $30 for a series of tournaments, why would anyone else take it seriously? It's not like they paid $60 for a box and are just recouping that cost by playing online.

i better play for fun cups than buy some membership to win MAYBE 100$ :/

gl :)

don't let THIS thread die...
The "I believe in e-sports" revival!

Nice logo. :)

hay guyz ive gots some spare issuez from Pro Gam3r magazine to donate for tha winnarz!!

The potential of a united players association vanishes in front of a entry fee

most professional associations have a membership fee

professional

i consider it first steps as it is not like they have a history at all

yet another full online event with prizes...
prepare your cheats (and learn how to use them :| )
if you need some $$$ (registration fees might help to avoid the issue).
prepare the spectators... oh wait ... can watch a match live only with 100x80 pixels streams
prepare the medias, the dramas and the Hall of Fame but will something happend to be memorable enough ?
prepare the moviemakers to make some great CA rail camp compilation with plenty of OMG 100% accuracy !

Maybe one day they will remember what made e-sport at its beginning.

This looks oddly familiar.

.

I would pay.

i would pay!

I would pay NOT

I would pay for cooller.

BTW, why 24 tourneys if the prize money is only few hundred bucks? Would be better to have fewer tourneys, but with more substantial prizes.

isnt streetrunner the son of that piece of shit guy that fucked the entire gaming community over with CGX or whatever that piece of shit tournament was called. I wouldnt thrust this guy for one bit and I have a weird feeling that AGP is some bullshit attempt to get rich off of gamers again

If streetrunner isnt the son of the CGX guy nevermind what I said

Basically this is a CEVO type league for Quakelive. Like so many have said above, you can't expect a bunch of lower skilled players to pay $30 when they know they won't win money. I foresee around 50 people total max signing up for this in NA. Europe I'd just be guessing.

I'm not knocking the idea. I'm just telling you what anyone with common sense could deduce. Hopefully AGP planned on having a small community base. Even though $30 seems cheap for an entire year, as vampire pointed out, what does someone who is lower skilled get out of joining? Someone who obviously doesn't have aspirations of playing quakelive as their profession. The top ~8-16 elite will sign up just to contest over the petty prize money no matter what. But the real trick for AGP will be to figure out a way to entice lower/middle skilled players to joining the AGP.

Stay tuned. This was only the first announcement in a long line. Like the site says, on start we are sponsoring all of the tournaments ourselves. It is not a huge amount of money, it doesn't require sponsors.

The Duel tournaments that we will announce details for in a few days will be separated as Pro and Open. Next year, with proper support, we will separate this further as well as in the other game modes. Separation of the skills. That is one of the benefits of the AGP Rankings.

New players will be able to win money for the first time ever really because they won't be playing the better players until they are ranked high enough.

i really like the idea of having a continuous competition on a mid skilled level, even if it wouldnt be for prizes at all

how is it different to what ESL and Clanbase are offering? it is quite the same without the payment to start playing or did i miss anything?

well clanbase has devision, but they are badly seeded (yes, even worse when you go down in divisions) and they are over a long periode of time with sceduled matches. its not a tournament.

and i dont have any idea what the esl ahs to offer in that direction. hope your not talking about ladders ;)

Feel free to join Clanbase as an admin, they are always looking for people and are very nice guys. in general those mistakes happen but good clanleaders know how to fill out the signup sheet properly. we have never had any problems of that kind and played in clanbase for several years.

I happen to know that ESL is starting a few qlive competitions in October.

PS: I hope you are not in nor referring to the team of the infamous guy called "mute"! ;-)

nope, i was talking about duel in the first place ;)

Did you just say CB don't run tournaments? I wonder what they've been doing these last 10 years ten! : )

tournament as in 1-day tournament

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There are methods for this to never happen that will be discussed by the association very soon. Punishments will be voted on as well. Understand this will add an additional safeguard to cheaters of all sorts.

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Until you see our rules, I would suggest refraining from assuming impossibility.

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i suggest that if u are seperating by skill you have some kind of rule to say that players must have a minimum playtime on quakelive, say 5 hours, to help avoid fakenicks.

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Or: "Haters get buttfucked with AGP success" Im all for that one.

Age: 32
gg sucker

it is unlikely to work out in Europe as players do not have to pay for any online competitions in ESL or Clanbase

this scheme usually works that you let those famous people in for free so people think that the thing is legit because those guys paid for it. you do not want to lower the fees to join at any point nor end up with a very low number.


forecast of things to come:
in the end it is going to be some invited guys and a very low number of people who paid so they will announce that a sponsor joined and waived the fee for that reason.

in general the qlive scene is kind of too small for these kind of schemes to work out. sponsors will be very difficult to get as soon as you mention the numbers - ok you can always bullshit people like cpl did with numbers for painkiller.

you will see similar stuff (pay to participate) with MLG and their gamebattles site and they will drop it soon if they haven´t already once they realize the scheme does not work due to low number of participants.

oh well good luck!

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I play for fun and I'm decent at the game, maybe enough to place top8 in the open tourney if I put some time in...but I'm still sure as hell not paying $30 to play the exact same thing I play for free at night when I'm bored.

Your freebee playskool tournaments don't give you money for winning. Sorry.

lets be honest, there's no point in discussing this before the sponsors jump in, so we can see exactly how much prize money are we talking about.

250$, 1-8 place payouts? you're aware of the fact that if half of the top players go for it, they'll get it all, each and every time, and noobs will finance their prizemoney?

why do you compare this to wsvg, look at the wsvg prizemoney distribution.

god gillz, stop it!
i want the agp to succeed, cause it would be good for the game and community i love, but that doesnt make any critizism wrong.
there are a lot of players who like to play in tournaments although they have no chance of winning (like myself). if they want this players to sign up, they have some work to do. being able to make your opinion matter a bit more and to support this is nice, but its not worth 30$ for someone like me.

now the agp has some interesting ideas, like the ranking that could lead to decent amateur tournaments aside from the "pro" cups. i would love that. but the problem is the start where i would just pay 30$ for (in my situation) alsmost nothing.if it would be 10$ id maybe say, whatever, lets try it out, but for 30$...

and this might be an eu/us thing, but there are quite a few prize money tournaments here. you should be aware of that when you read all esr news.

its 2x WMO1.1a ffs!!!

im a poor student. ;)
if i had the cash (=would be working) i probably wouldnt think so hard about it, but im kinda in the target audience for the agp anyway, so i guess my view on things is still valid

i was trying to say how you can get 2 x epic mouse with that money :(((

i'm so misunderstood.

if i was emo i'd ragequit and listen to evanescence now.

thought you were making fun of me about how i think so much about 30$ ;)

noooooo

I'm focusing more on North America with this.

Yes, I understand we should wait to see what sponsors can commit to this, and what we can see for increase prize money, but all I'm doing is trying to help things. People bashing it just hurt it, there's no reason to bash this at its current state.

i guess it would have been a better move for them if they waited a couple of days, and then announced this with the sponsors prizemoney in.

cause people see 200$ + 30$ signup and...its not good.

yeah some posts here arent construcitve at all, but hey, welcome to the internetz
but concerning the rest:
i dont think it helps the agp not to speak about how their target audience feels about it and just let them alone with few signups and no feedback

what the hell did you expect exactly?
I remember how the CPL whined that ppl bashing it hurt it and whatnot, especially with their "$1,000,000" Halo 3 tourney. a sad excuse that covers over the cracks.
Clanbase dont charge for tournaments. AGP doesnt have to charge for tournaments

Where did I say I play for money?

also: Please remove Streetrunner's cock from your mouth

MLG does the same, I support it, ESL does the same, I support it. Now this is doing it, so I support it.

Support it as much as your little heart wants to. Making money from playing games comes far and few between, and it is really nothing I want to spend money to support. If it happens it happens, if it doesn't then fuck it. I could really care less, this is just a hobby. Even if I was rich as hell I would not spend $30 to compete in this league.

are you seriously comparing a new leauge supporting a shitty remake of a flawed 10 year old game with a well established league with 3 million active users (needs confirming) across an array of immensely popular games one of which has over 9 million players?

don't mention south korea while you're at it either, that'll never happen (regardless of the game).

Has this been approved by id? If the cost players are paying isn't directly put into the prize pool 100%, I believe that would be a violation of the EULA.

Prohibitions. You, whether directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:

d. in manner and through any medium whatsoever commercially exploit the Software or use the Software for any commercial purpose;

I'll might pay but damn that's a bad timing for me :/

Gillz' retardation hurts me physically.

Using logic and respect for supporting a league. OH NO

Yeah, that's the reason, mate. :D

yeah, all those facepalms are really starting to show on my forehead.

None of you have yet to prove me wrong, so keep it coming.

None of you have yet to prove me wrong

you got that right.

god forbid people actually use their money for something useful to the quake community instead of throwing it away on world of losercraft or the dozens of shit no point games that come out every year that every other regular camping noob faggot plays because they can't figure out how to move and shoot at the same time!

haaawhehe

I'll gladly throw some money at quake live by buying their premium subscription.
However, I do not exactly feel the urge to pay to play in a tournament when I'm pretty sure I won't win anyway.
I'd rather save up and buy a World of Warcraft Cataclysm expansion pack.

As if that premium subscription will be available anytime soon...

players would probably pay money for services that are well established and proven to be successful and that offer some kind of return even if it's not in the form of money

keep up the good work, this is exciting stuff.

Europe

North America

Meh.

2v2 TDM is more fun to watch than 4v4 spamfest aka Clan Arena.

2v2 TDM maps:

DM6
DM7
Tourney6
Tourney7
ZTNtourney1

i think that's a fairly good map pool.


2v2 is easy to set up too, you only need 1 buddy to make a team, not 3 other people that may not even like you :p


in any case, Clan Arena is the most UNcompetitive gametype in my whole gaming career, and i come from Call of Duty, that's got to mean something if I don't think CA is competitive.

-dm7
+ca2

better imo

sure, still, there's a 5 map pool of amazing 2v2 maps.

true +ca2 for 2v2 is quite nice! new dm7 can go die.

2v2 tdm

LET THE PROS VOTE WHETHER THEY WOULD WANT 2V2 OR TDM INSTEAD OF CA LET'S SEE WHICH TYPE IS ON TOP.

oh and don't let americans vote

why should the pros decide? if u want noobs to signup ca probably has more than tdm. both would be the best option, perhaps remove duel and give more prizes to other tourneys :)

agp site really needs some themes, i really don't like the sharp black and white contrast.

remove duel and noone will play this shit cup

duel has always been the most boring gametype, only used because it is the easiest tournament to run and cheapest.

Who said anything about wanting noobs to play? I don't care about noobs and they don't care about the scene, They'll end up by playing some other game anyway.

And the reason why I'd rather want to see the pros decide, because NOONE will pick CA, it's so obvious that tdm/2v2 is the far superiour mod/gametype.

Wow now I finally understand why politicians, CEO's and popular artists have absolutely zero interest in contact to the outer world... it's unbearably full of stupidity...

Stay on!

good effort but I don't see how they will be able to compete with the SS5D.

Srs reply:

Fuck man, someone actually makes a DECENT EFFORT to get something REAL going for the competitive quake scene, and what do we get? People whining about having to pay $30.

If the quake community wasn't as cynical as fuck maybe just MAYBE something might happen. At least Streetrunner cares enough to get off his ass and do something. But rather than pay $30 to get a guaranteed year of good online tournaments, the majority of ESR will sit back and go 'OH MAN THIS IS A STUPID IDEA I CAN'T WAIT FOR IT TO FAIL SO I CAN RUB IT IN EVERYONE'S FACE'. YES it is a risky concept and YES odds are that it'll struggle but the ONLY reason for that is because the community won't support it. Quake's community is large enough to support a venture like this and hopefully create a self-sustaining competitive scene and most of us are >20 years old and should have jobs to support it at least slightly financially.

But again the overwhelming troll cunt mentality which spawned a million "QUAKE LIVE IS HORRIBLE AS SHIT ITLL FAIL I CANT WAIT FOR IT TO FAIL OMG ID FUCK YOU" threads rather than 1 to support iD's effort to bring us a free, updated quake with a chance to revive a dying scene will prevail and might just succeed in bringing AGP down as well. NICE.

/rage

Regarding the "QUAKELIVE IS GOING TO FAIL SO BADLY", I had such huge expectations for it, and all the comfortable commands, variates should already be in this game, and hey first of all let's get one thing straight.

It's not like they're making this game for the community, I bet the majority of the quake community wants:

gtv,
7-7-7 lg,
lockteams,
timeouts,
hitboxes(netcode).
And loads of other commands.

To be able to play LAN whenever and wherever without ID Software staff sitting next to you.

And the game is still in beta, ofcourse we should give them our opinions on how to fix the game and make it as good/competetive as possible.

And fyi, if we didn't have any of the trolls there wouldn't be such interesting discussions to read :o).

7-7-7 lg? Why? (it's a serious question, actually)

It's consistant and not weak like now, when pg is a very dominant weapon vs lg(which is great for lowpingers)

Dude lg is fine. It doesn't need anymore tweaking

Okay. Let's see your stats. LG usage = 24%, PG usage = 5%. So clearly PG is not dominant overall. If you are trying to say that PG is not good overall, but specifically vs LG it wins, then I don't see how it can be possibly considered a bad thing.
Also, I don't see how LG is weak in it's current form. I've checked numerous top players' stats, and LG is, with very few exceptions, a top 3 weapon, and for some it's most used, for some second most used, for some it's at 3-rd place - just as it should be for a balanced, non-dominant weapon.
Also, even if it's weak (of which there is no indication whatsoever), why shouldn't it be weak in favour of other weapons? I.e. why can you accept without any debate that PG (or, for example, GL) is weak, but cannot live with weak LG? Why must it be strong? I'd rather see more PG action, for example, as it's not a hitscan weapon and requires more skill to aim, and is generally more "interesting" weapon (i.e. produces nicer-looking frags :)
Can you explain, what's wrong with LG hypothetically being weak?

Okay. Let's see your stats. LG usage = 24%, PG usage = 5%. So clearly PG is not dominant overall. If you are trying to say that PG is not good overall, but specifically vs LG it wins, then I don't see how it can be possibly considered a bad thing.

-I don't play alot of duels, and yes that is correct I don't use PG alot, when I play tourney9 specifically use aaaaaalot of pg, spam-weapon which now isn't hard to use with lowping vs lg.

Also, even if it's weak (of which there is no indication whatsoever), why shouldn't it be weak in favour of other weapons? I.e. why can you accept without any debate that PG (or, for example, GL) is weak, but cannot live with weak LG? Why must it be strong? I'd rather see more PG action, for example, as it's not a hitscan weapon and requires more skill to aim, and is generally more "interesting" weapon (i.e. produces nicer-looking frags :)
Can you explain, what's wrong with LG hypothetically being weak?

-imho it's about consistancy of the weapon usage, LG being stronger would imo not have the same randomness like I said before you didn't see alot of pg vs lg and pg coming out as the top weapon in vq3, I think it's more FFA and random now, just get a weapon and rush, since now lg+rail are weak, the weapons are more balanced = more random in fights.

In vq3 it was more about controlling a certain area rather than rushing with PG even knowing your opponent is more stacked sitting with lg(which you never do in vq3)

Just to make this clear, I'm not suggesting to make the game exactly like vq3, just a consistant and a bitter stronger LG, and plz fix the hitboxes.

Have you played TDM btw? It's Team Free For All, every weapon is balanced, and you hardly see, for example in dm6 more 2 on RA 2 on RAIL kind of situation. We in our team have been trying to work out tactics in every map, and we've come to the conclusion(despite how we played in vq3) that we just base our tactics on the opponents current position f.e:
"There are 3 guys on red NOW, RUSH"
2minutes later:
"They're on rail NOW HELP"

You can't have 2/2 situations with 80damage rails(much harder to hold rail), weak shaft and moved to a shitty position(dm6).

I would much rather play a game where the guns are more powerful and you have to syncronize your attacks(meaning the lower skilled teams would be punished) so the tactics of dm6 would f.e be more about controlling a certain area rather then just cessing and hoping to hit with superrandom sg/anybody can rape lg if their pg is 20% if their opponent is semi-far away.

Well summary of this arguement, just want to have a bit more powerful shaft/rail and fix the hitboxes so you actually hit the model. And some TDM insights(ql tdm is not as fun as q3tdm)

LAST BUT NOT LEAST, ID RELEASE SOME QLTDM MAPS ALREADY

Edit: and lol at you basing your facts on my % usage of the guns saying that LG is clearly not underpowered based on that.

I agree that balanced weapon design is not the best for tdm, (which is why QW tdm is the best tdm imo), but it really makes duels more interesting imo - what weapons do i have, which weapons does he have, and how can I force a situation where my weapon>his weapon rather than just GET LG, RUSH, KILL

7-7-7 lg? lol? :DDDD

?

wake up bitch, we dont want again xerpwars 2 :)) vq3 was ruined by owage lg, in ql its perfect!

I thought you were whining about the LG yourself like 2weeks ago, suddenly you change your mind, and first of all, in vq3 it was 8-8-8.

no i didnt whined :) but netcode in ql even better to hit, so 8-8-8 would be 0.5 for 200/200 .. atm lg balance is good, more rocket in action, more fun!!! rail and lg not intresting guns to spec! QL is not for players ir for SPECTATORS!

I specifically remember you saying ql was 30% luck and q3 only 10% without any logical information.

lamer :))) ask any pro , he will say same about luck in ql and q3. luck , i mean random. in even better player can lose 5 games in a row, for lower skilled player, in q3 it would never happen.. if you

btw, so low of you caring more about how spec(noob)friendly the game is rather then the flow of the game itself.

believe me, im more player then spectator, i care game itself, not for spectate, but it is now and imo will stay friendly spectator mode..

if they buffed lg strenx would be able to out aim to win even more than he does now.

Have people forgotten about toxjq? or playing with theiR BrAin nOT aiM?

RBAOTM?

first google result for RBAOTM just confused me even more

"Rbaotm sorry for free gay personals so oral sex personal adult videos even if free dating love site after chat christian speed dating in hampton roads"

It's pretty clear for me know.

Nasty little Icelandians.

Yes we are nasty Icelandians ...

What is love?

AGP is really a joke, it started out with different 4 games and various LAN competitions all around the world (or atleast Europe and NA), then it turned in to QL with LANs and now it's 24 online cups where you have to pay 30USD to enter the competition. This is a big fail.

The LANS are still being worked on, that is what the AGP Tour side of things is. If you haven't noticed the global recession has seemed to hurt every form of pro gaming (CPL and CGS going down) and lack of anything related to DM besides QuakeCon and ESL. Sponsors almost all went on freeze and my company is new, not with 10 years of tournaments like the CPL had or $30 million dollars like MLG has so it takes time. The online tournaments are part of the 'extra' benefits an AGP member gets. A players association is completely being ignored by most in here because of thinking this is a league. It is not a league. We are just sponsoring some additional tournaments and not all require membership. An association requires money to run, look any of them up. Trust me, this isn't about my company making money, that would be near impossible in the AGP side of things. Remember it isn't about what you can always get for free. I didn't expect this to be easy with the ESR crowd because it is very new since it IS the first international players association. The only other one in gaming is for Starcraft in Korea. So this is simply a step. Within the week you will have more details on the tournaments.

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The G7 is not a players association lol. It's a company organization. Nothing even close to the same thing.

uhm, g7 is a organisation of teams.

That's like saying the bosses GM, GE and Ford got together and founded a labor union.

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Companies and labor unions also both consist of workers.
The way both function is also very much down to the members, but the people who steer is are very different.
Their impact is irrelevant.

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well, imo the difference that it _could_ make is that the G7 will always prioritize the benefits of the teams (read: managers first, then players) where the AGP could take the side of the players against the teams.

Just saying that it's possible, not that it is or will be reality.

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contracts, salaries, cut, etc.

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reply :P

You couldn't just wait to announce everything all at once in a comprehensive fashion?

That would have avoided the majority of the questions and some of the criticisms.

Seriously what was the rush?

so far the only person supporting this is gillz. where do I sign up?

i like the idea, but not sure if it will get enough signups.

do u have the support of id software?
if so it would be nice if u could use their skill matching info to seperate cups into different skill levels. it wouldn't be 100% accurate but it's better than guessing. of course it would require the players to have a certain amount of play time for it to be accurate.

$30 seems good for a year, but it's only for a few months, will the membership be more for 2010 i wonder?

.

agreed.

it works really good for me tbh.
4/5 skill matched duels i play are well balanced

but using it for a tournament?

I just know people will try to abuse it.

So you would have to make rules to prohibit that which in turn means checking details on the entered players.

I don't know enough about ql skill system to judge it. I did read that they are using an elo system now, so I don't mean just using the tier thing.

Well I can't think of any real soluton to create seperate skilled cups. Perhaps they will have to base it solely on performance in AGP cups, although that could be abused too.

yes, so one way or the other they will have to "guess" whether people actually fit in their division.

CGS went down because americans are retarded. Spoiling all the gaming nerds and CPL went down because of themself not because of the recession. I guess we will see people blame the recession for their own mistakes in any branche.

Donations from specs would be a better model. We have more specs than players. All of us could donate on a tournament by tournament basis to draw in bigger names (say a dollar from each of us) by extending the Cash Pool for winnings.

That, or set up a system where we sponsor a player with our donations to pay their fee for them - for the pleasure of watching some good games (a small addendum to the advertised model as is). Obviously this would take some organizational effort.

Despite my opinions, I applaud the effort, even if it can "taint" certain characteristics of brand image, and potential if failure happens.

Sometimes failure is progress. If we don't get it right, we try something else.

the guy is trying to do something good for the community. i'll probably signup, not expecting to win anything but i enjoy playing in tournaments...and i enjoy watching good matches. all that entertainment is worth far more than 30bux for me...

cmon support the community!

lol everyone wants PK cpl world tour for free :)) forget it kids! we need our self to build everything from begining!
most of u fags siting here in esreality, watching ql streams and talking about , how much you dont care it.. its so fucking funny :))
spent 1/2 life near pc and talking bullshit :)) fucking fags :)))

etc i would do new cup league with 200$ prize fund every 2 weeks and wouldnt take any fee (etc 30$). most of us would say "fucking nice, good games coming, skilled players will play, yeeee..!". And most of you will spend watching most of 24 tourneys by siting behind ur pc and eating pizza. if you watching it, its intresting to you! if its intresting to you is it much to pay 1 $ for single tournament even not to play - just spec!? i know some fatass bitches better would eat 1/2 sniker!
its like wow player playing 50 hours / week telling he is not addicted to wow.. WAKEUP!

ps. jokes about my english are old..


the guy is trying to do something good for the community. i'll probably signup, not expecting to win anything but i enjoy playing in tournaments...and i enjoy watching good matches. all that entertainment is worth far more than 30bux for me...

cmon support the community! (C) ^

actually your english is $$$. wtf happened?

I fink Guard right!!11!!

dude this joke is old as your gf..

12?

over 9000..

You can run a tournament without it costing $30.

my PCI-E > your AGP

Just imagine what could be done if the Quake community for once was united. For me, this is a step towards the right direction. Yes it might fail, but most likely not if more people actually thought more than 2 minutes ahead.

Our game needs us, obviously we have been waiting for years, but since everyone is waiting nothing ever happens.

What if 5000 people sign up? What if 50.000 people sign up? I am not saying there will be that many sign ups, I am not even hoping, but I am doing my part and that is to support it instead of flame it before it even gets a real try. Anything is welcome in my world with right intentions when it comes to Quake. Wake up people!

I have better things to spend $30 on.

wrote your pc SPEC here please :)

Why would my PC specification matter?

yes, be brave, wrote it!

Why and how does it matter?

But obviously you don't have better things to spend your time on.

Not at this present moment in time, no.

"What if 5000 people sign up? What if 50.000 people sign up?"

Streetrunner gets rich?

I am not saying it's necessarily a bad idea but a brand new "international players association" that's charging $30 for membership should be a lot more transparent.

Streetrunner says the company is not looking to make a profit, we should know exactly where the money is going then. Instead of giving people a mouthful of PR mumbo jumbo, the benefits of this AGP and where it plans to go should be explained.

On the AGP website they claim that "player unification" will stop leagues using newer games, tournaments not paying prize money, organizers using rules of their choice, sponsors not paying up and more.

I think the AGP should be clearer on how it plans to achieve these goals. For example, have ESL agreed to be "sanctioned" by this? Will the elected AGP council be free to spend the membership fees? If the fees are for prize money for the tournaments, wouldn't it have been a better idea to have a free-to-join players association with cheap pay-to-play tournaments? etc...

.

The damage a venture like this causes when it fails is far more dangerous than any potential small gain that you are hoping for with the risk. Quake has continued to fail because of the people who are trying to treat it as a top tier game, when it just isn't.

it would be better to do 1 year tournaments with NO fee to make a good name website etc... and then later mb start with a small fees like 0.99$ etc but u start in this time when much ppl dont have a job etc with 30$ for 3!!! months... not very smart imo

would be interesting whether it would be 120 usd for 2010 :-)

(assuming 10 usd per month like this year)

hehe thats crazy :P

Too much pessimism in the quake community and you wonder why there are no tournaments look at your attitudes they are absolutely horrible with the exception of a few. If I was a tournament organizer I wouldn't even want to put up some good money to invest in a community that has such as a blatantly horrible attitude.

Clean up your attitudes on how you feel about things and good things can happen....I may not be that great at quake live or even quake 3, but at least I have shown up to some lan events and competed in some tournaments free or paid.

Have a good one!

Spot on. But its the same on anything new/different. The masses cant take it at first. If theres enough "hype"(c)2GD and people starts to believe in it, it can success. Look at most things that really work, they depend more in marketing than product. I wish gl to the AGP, im glad they canceled the multi-game part and went for QL. Believe <3

2 things e-sports doesnt need
1. stupid name, its not a sport give it up
2. people like gillz

ur cute.

reading the comments in this article a reason enough for someone not to sponsor AGP