At any rate, if all you're worried about is getting “shot around a corner,” the effects aren't that big of a deal. You can get used to that. Just remember that Unlagged helps other people hit you in exactly the same way that it helps you hit other people.


Technical Answer

The answer isn't much different. You, as the target, were backward reconciled to the point where your attacker saw you, which was in plain sight. There's nothing buggy or weird about it – it's just a side-effect. Lag compensation by client-side hit tests has exactly the same problem.

so?

wait a second... i'm pretty sure neither cpma's nor ql's netcode falls under the 'unlagged' category. why do you keep posting that link?
no matter what the author says, 'unlagged' means some sort of clientside hit detection and if i'm not completely mistaken this is not what quakelive does.

if you instead wanted to make a statement pro introducing 'unlagged' netcode this site gives the best reasoning why we should avoid it at all costs.

- getting shot around the corner:
whatever this guy says the point remains... you're getting shot by a non-visible target. of course you'd move earlier in time but is this is really what we want in competitive gameplay?

- weapon balance:
'unlagged' only works for hitscan weapons and enables them to be much more useful in comparison to projectile weapons. this is perfectly fine if you want a super-hitscan-heavy shooter... it's got little to do with quake though (go play ut/et/cs/...).

I thought QL used the unlagged netcode or at least a derivation. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

cpma however did not, that's why it plays fairly bad on a high ping.

as far as i understand it: 'unlagged' literally means 'no lag' which can only be achieved through clientside hit detection. ql obviously does not do this.

i thought (please correct me if i'm wrong) ql uses an updated version of cpma's netcode which was something arqon talked about in the late vq3 days. they removed the jittery stuff that was so annoying with smoothclients (aka xerp) and laghax both enabled. atleast to me it pretty much 'feels' like that too :>

ql obviously does not do this.

The fact you didn't realize it speaks for its advantage. It does use kind of a client side hit detection, the server decides over hits true, but it saves the data the client sees for an amount of xx ms and then decides upon a hit, that's a similar concept.

Read just a bit into the unlagged FAQ and you might see the similarities.

how do you know? are there any docs on ql's netcode?
i used to play xbattle for q3 and one other mod i forgot about which had 'unlagged' netcode and they felt a lot different than ql. not that i do not believe you but 'unlagged' means there's basically little to no difference between ping 10 and ping 100. ql is not like that at all for me!? :S

There's a bunch of problems with "unlagged" netcode.

One of the major issues is that it fubars shots with fast paced or movement intensive games (like CPM or to a lesser degree QL), like zealot said, shots around corners or thru walls become much more pronounced. There's nothing more annoying than evading an enemy by ducking behind a corner and still getting hit with shots. This is something that'd happen EVEN MORE in unlagged than already happens to high packetloss or high-ping players against LPBs. Maybe in some noob mod of Q3 the unlagged gameplay can be pretty interesting with low-skilled players, but vq3 and cpm are a bit different than unlagged instagibbed/freezetag gameplay.

Second problem is that client side detection opens up a whole new can of worms for hackers/cheaters to exploit it that much more easily. See CS:Source.

ix/arQon would be a better authority on this topic, though. But since netcode is something that has been talked about over and over and over a million times on ESR, I doubt they'd waste their time reiterated the facts again. Though arQon might show up just to talk shit.

CPMA has a 50ms "laghax" built in with the cvar cg_laghax. More than that, xerp is extrapolation of player models so you're opponents position is more "smooth" and defined and therefore you get many more LG ticks on a moving opponent.

I used to play xerp 0 for the longest time and while my RL was strong, my LG/RG suffered because of it. It's one of those trade-offs and since CPM has been becoming increasingly more hitscan based, it's just a smarter choice to play xerp despite the whine about xerp. Which, btw, CPMA has easily the best netcode out there of any quake mod. period.

It's not really a question. CPMA is playable without adjustment up to 80 ping and above 100 that's when you need to start adjusting your play style. But your statement about not being able to play CPMA at 30 ping or below makes little sense to me. Maybe because half my experience is with 60 ping locally, but 60 to 10 ping is sooo negligible that it makes really no end-game difference.

id has already made a great move by bringing arQon onto the QL project. If arQon can achieve half of what he did for CPMA, then I think QL has a bright future... netcode wise, at least.

I felt a huge disadvantage in osp/cpma when playing with higher ping, say 50 higher then my enemy(ies). Dunno why I wrote 30, scratch that. QL feels superior in that regard. You say your hitscan suffered, now you can have both good hitscan and good prediction weapons at ping 60, isn't that better, for the cost of a few shots that don't feel right only with the old habits in mind?

You know that the enemy now has the benefit of faster reactions, or let's say the possibility. The game plays more like LAN in that regard, which is a good thing. You are not save running in straight lines behind walls anymore only because a ping 100 player has less reaction time. The trade-off is sometimes you get hit when you didn't see it coming, still there is no hit detection when there shouldn't be *(and here the FAQ comes handy).

I too think id did a smart move bringing some of the best mod developers on board, it's win win for everyone.

I don't understand why CPMA and/or QL didn't implement the ping similarity command like QW has. If a player is always pinging 40 to NYC and the other gets 10, then you could do a cg_ping 40 (Or whatever the command is in QW).

This would arguably make it more fair. I just don't know why this isn't in CPMA.

I've heard about that "fake ping" thing QW has though no personal experience with it. Though I'm sure arQon had his reasons for not implementing it in CPMA netcode.

IMO, CPMA is the most complete mod with few exceptions (the rocket splash problem on stairs/ledges and total lack of a mid-air mode for CPM -- a travesty! -- and better demo playback capabilities). Sure, ezQuake/nQuake have these insane customizable cvars, but most of them are too novel (like having smoke = blood or glittery exploisions).

QL does use a form of unlagged netcode, pretty much the ET form of it. Every online game does use the unlagged ways nowadays. And no, unlagged doesn't do any client side calculations.

Every online game does use the unlagged ways nowadays.

really? what about qw/q2/q3/q4?

And no, unlagged doesn't do any client side calculations.

somehow i believe we have a different understanding of what 'unlagged' means. to me the term goes back to what xbm for q3 did. clientside hit detection for hitscan weapons with lots of sideeffects on gameplay.

somehow i believe we have a different understanding of what 'unlagged' means

Yes, Jal understands what he is talking about, and you do not.

"Unlagged" in the context of the q3 mod with that name, which released its source and so was used in other mods (incl xbm q3 I believe) really does not mean client side hit detection. It means "backwards reconcilliation" on the server to determine where clients saw the other players.

fair enough, i was probably thinking about zpm ( http://www.zpmode.org/ ).

Obviously, with the exception of Q4, the games you mention are older than unlagged and they don't use it. But every game on source engine, recent unreals, CoDs, ET, ET:QW, new Wolf, etc, etc, use backwards reconciliation antilag methods, or, if you prefer it, "unlagged".

thanks, this means that quakelive for me is the first time experiencing an 'unlagged' netcode apart from the bits of ET i played. i had stopped playing before it was introdocued to the unreals and warsow and i never cared about CoD or CS.

now with all this settled (again thanks for correcting me :p) is there a possibility that the complaints about ql's current netcode can be taken care of? when reading the unlagged-faq i got the feeling the author mentions the glitches as a necessary side-effect of his work.

Some glitches, like corners shooting, will be there until internet becomes instant. The most frequent complaints at QL are about the late-shot hitboxes, tho. That one can (and I bet will) be fine-tuned. But of course glitches will keep happening when the connection isn't stable. Unlagged doesn't fix internet. ;)

if both use unlagged, whats the difference between QL and warsows netcode jal? Im from Brazil and i often play on USA servers with pings ranging from 150 to 250, and even tho some nasty prediction errors occur in both games, warsow is playable with that kind of ping while QL isnt.

Well, I don't know. I only know they use backwards reconciliation cause I recognize its effects ingame and in demos. I don't know how their implementation is. Maybe their reconciliation time is limited to a smaller time range.

in ql its effective only up until 80ms i believe, from your post i'm assuming warsow's limit is higher. by playable, you mean that you dont need to lead shots at all even on 250 ping?

yea in warsow i can shoot at the model and the shots will hit like my ping was 0, obviously its harder to predict rockets and some other stuff, but my LG accuracy doesnt drop if i have high ping, unlike QL. But i dont understand, why QL uses unlagged if its limited to 80ms? Isnt the idea of unlagged to make the game playable at any ping? I mean if u want to please LPBs u could use the CPMA netcode, which is actually better for me with pings around 200, and if u want to please HPBs u would use unlagged to make it playable up to 450 ping, but if QL actually uses unlagged up to 80ms, u have the worst of two worlds: u can get shot around corners, and the game is not playable with high pings because u still need to lead ur shots.

Well, antilag is not necesarily for any range of pings. It works best for the 50-100 ping ranges. With bigger pings is when the glitches show up on the opponents side. Actually we limit it in Warsow too, but to 150ms. I consider 150 too high for my taste, but given we don't have many populated servers outside of europe, and it's frequent to see people playing with red pings, I decided to keep it high.

I posted the link because it explains almost every single problem people have with the QL netcode. Some are even explained to be a result of q3's original programming, like the hitboxes, the railing behind if enemy on jumppad and so on.

I find QL's netcode far superior to cpma, because you can actually play with a ping higher then 30 and stand your ground against lpbs. People from half across the world can compete against each other, impossible with cpma.

inb4 rat demo...I meant cpma netcode, not the gametype

not trying to start an argument here :p but pings ranging from 60-120 used to be playable with cpma's netcode. i even remember some north american players asking to join european teams to play in the clanbase cups. an even better example would be the promode tdm and duel cups that happened from time to time.

We have an entire different interpretation of 'playable' then.

Exactly how many times have you actually played CPMA?

538 times.

Is that in seconds?

"I find QL's netcode far superior to cpma, because you can actually play with a ping higher then 30"

baseq3 isn't called CPMA.

Meh,wrong number

QL does unlagged, but it calculates it serverside. It does this by maintaining a cache of snapshots.

source?

It's been stated many, many times. If you are really interested I can try explaining, or just google around a bit.

Here's one source:
http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35270

Techincally speaking, all hitscan weapons are unlagged server-side.

wait a second... i'm pretty sure neither cpma's nor ql's netcode falls under the 'unlagged' category. why do you keep posting that link?

That link explains a lot of different things, many of which are related. For example, if you read the technical part of this question it explains how CPMA / and the "Unlagged" mod both have changes that allows cg_smoothclients to extrapolate (xerp!) as well as interpolate.

Ye, and QL also does backwards reconciliation, so the paper is perfectly suited for it.

gamers are such pussies. whine about anything and everything and do nothing for it.

if it were unlagged, then there wouldnt be such high differences in accuracy percentages with hitscan depending on what ping server you play on.

sry

Fair enough, but the problems resulting are similar to unlagged. I put unlagged in '' (what are those called?) to say how it's similar.

i agree on the fact that netcode is fucked. :)

Too bad

Those " signs are called quotation marks :)

netcode is great, stop whining.

I think netcode is good enough. I play usually with ping 64 or 100 or something. My aim is still decent but I usually still lose coz i suck. Btw what's the exact command to show ping instead of pressing tab key.
Like cg_drawping 1....

~ cg_lagometer 2

Very nice Sir.

Oh nice, thx!