cool ! will test it :P

remove the tele
change the pillars YA to a RA

rest i like :)

looks pretty cool :D

I dislike the small wall on 2nd floor in mid close to pillars and the tele seems a bit lame aswell. But besides that it looks very interesting :).

It seems to me that you can make a total lock down from RL position on dm6r. You can completely deny your opponent access to RL, rail, both YA and to some extent MH (requires better timing now, of course, however it also seems to be a very risky move to take the teleport if you're not on perfect timing and can take some serious damage.

Edit: What dm6 needs is a shift of armor, health and weapons to make the map more leveled. As it is now, there's a line from RL through mega to lg. One side has ya, sg and gl, the other has ra, shards, rail etc. I don't think dm6 needs new architecture, it needs the item balanced changed, and that really isn't achieved in your version. For starters, YA should at least be replaced with a RA on dm6, and the map could probably also benefit from some weapon rearrangement.

So dark:/

I think noctis is right with a RA @ Pillars, will change that in the next build. Will keep the tele for now tho :>

Looks interesting. I agree with changing it to RA. I would remove the tele though... what noctis said :)

i dont see sharts, and the RA changed by YA ?! hmm?

check your pants!!

one piece of suggestion here, for all the people who wanna try a different dm6, why don't you guys make a test map for q3 with all these dm6 changes so people can test it on duel using vq

UPDATED // Same link, just replace the .pk3

1) Replaced YA @ Pillars with RA
2) Better teleporter 'exit' (I still think it adds some spice, even more now as theres a RA @ tele)
3) Darkness/Brightness fixed (there you go Fejl)
4) draven, what shards, where etc? 1RA 2YA not enough armor in your opinion?
5) @ ScarletFather, we will do a q3 version as soon as we are close to what we (all) want.

(L)

Not bad.
- Map is too dark for me in some sections, and too bright in others.
- Additional walls/walkways interrupt the flow when running items and basically force you to walk/move slower. I guess there was a strategic reason behind that?
- Too much armor. Two yellows should be enough, or if you must, one red and one yellow. Two yellows and one red seems like overkill to me.

+ I like the tele idea. Not sure about the direct dump into quad/mega area, maybe put it around the edge, so you don't immediately dive into it?
+ Some of the hallways/passages seem a bit larger. Dunno if that's b/c you actually made them larger, or b/c the different textures you used makes it seem that way.

Overall I'd like to see more open areas, especially around rail. For how rail-heavy a map dm6 is, there should be some risk going for it. Ideally I'd open up the rail walkway and get rid of that passage to the yellow armor over mid, along with that second wall jutting into mid.

Just random thoughts, sorry if they don't make much sense.
Loved your TDM map, tho. :D

"- Too much armor. Two yellows should be enough, or if you must, one red and one yellow. Two yellows and one red seems like overkill to me."

you mean as overkill as like ztn,dm13,t7?

yes, all those maps should be removed immediately and replaced with ca2 ;P

I meant overkill for dm6, not as a general rule.

Interesting...

Why is the map colours all different? It's darker and brighter than DM6. It should look the same. I use picmip 6, so I don't know what you did, heh.

I think the tele is unecessary. Most of the time you'll know if they're in that area, so I don't think it'd going to surprise your opponent. It's a risky move anyways to go through it, if they have LG in the right position you're fucked. I'm being a bit too critical here I think. I'm sorry :D

Interesting physical changes though, I honestly can't say if that will work or not, since we can't even duel this map. I wondering if ID can temporarily host this map for a week so we can test it?

EDIT: Just thought of the teleporter more. I'd remove it. You can go from RA right to Mega even quicker.

Screenshots!

Screens: RG // RA // MH. (800x600)

zoinks
+ Some of the hallways/passages seem a bit larger. Dunno if that's b/c you actually made them larger, or b/c the different textures you used makes it seem that way.

The only layout changes have been to create the new route from
Rail to mid YA, an extra wall at mid overlooking MH, and the tele at RA. The textures are all originals too, haven't touched those :)

Gillz
Why is the map colours all different? It's darker and brighter than DM6. It should look the same. I use picmip 6, so I don't know what you did, heh.

As far as I can tell, the original light entities are baked into the .bsp file, so when we converted it to .map there were no original light entities in there.

The only lighting was from shaders. We're trying to replicate the original qzdm6 lighting as closely as possible, but it's tricky and time consuming work :)

It's interesting, won't say if it's good or not without some play testing, though.

Some things I do know right now that need to be corrected:
* add lights in the areas:
1. at the YA and the YA>SG stairs
2. directly at the RA
3. at both SGs
4. three of the four corners on the MH/QD area
5. directly above the area which I just mentioned - at the two corners that you see in the middle level when standing at the RL
6. at the LG>Shards door (on the LG side, the shards side of the door is fine).
7. at the LG ammo stairs

Some of us have got quite low-gamma cfg's (fox-like gfx), you can't see shit on this kind of config, I could see all of qzdm6 without any problems on the very same config.

* the new YA area needs to look visually nicer

* I really don't like the tele. Imagine a TDM game where all four players from one team make a Quad attack through the tele two seconds before the Quad spawns :))) It's impossible to stop them.

* wtf @ the plasmagun floor texture. Check it out at picmip 0. edit: also, check out the railgun-jump pad arch. It's got fucked up textures, too.

* why make the railgun wall so wide? There's no way to deny the RG when standing on the bridge from a player that's on the upper YA if you don't have an RG already.

* what #5 said might be proven correct, but I don't know it because I haven't played a match on the map yet. I'm not that certain, though, since the RG is at the higher YA. You might want to cut down on RG ammo - you probably should get rid of the RG ammo at RA. This will make holding down a map-lockdown much more difficult. That's good.

Overall, this is a nice job. You do need to work on it more, though. And we do need play testing ability :(

Btw, don't you think QL's dm6 would be more fun with the dm6tmp item layout than with the pro-q3dm6 item layout? It's pretty correct that the biggest problem of the current qzdm6 is that it's imbalanced - it's really hard to regain control. q3dm6tmp's item layout might change that without any really big changes. The map would probably get even more aim-based, though.

Some things I do know right now that need to be corrected:
* add lights in the areas:
1. at the YA and the YA>SG stairs
2. directly at the RA
3. at both SGs
4. three of the four corners on the MH/QD area
5. directly above the area which I just mentioned - at the two corners that you see in the middle level when standing at the RL
6. at the LG>Shards door (on the LG side, the shards side of the door is fine).
7. at the LG ammo stairs

See #15, last paragraph

* the new YA area needs to look visually nicer

Detail will be added once changes are final I think.

* wtf @ the plasmagun floor texture. Check it out at picmip 0. edit: also, check out the railgun-jump pad arch. It's got fucked up textures, too.

Yes, converting from .bsp to .map loses texture alignments, that too will be fixed as the layout changes become final.

by the way converting from .bsp to .map can make some brushes looks like this
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( 255 0 240 ) ( 255 0 208 ) ( -128 0 208 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
( -128 383.3600006104 208 ) ( -128 0 208 ) ( 255 0 208 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
( -128 0 240 ) ( -128 383.6100006104 240 ) ( -47.5930023193 375.9239959717 240 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
( 241.7740020752 111.3209991455 208 ) ( 243.1459960938 104.425994873 208 ) ( 243.8739929199 100.7640075684 240 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
( 166.8809967041 249.1190032959 208 ) ( 213.828994751 178.8070068359 208 ) ( 213.828994751 178.8070068359 240 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
( 213.8229980469 178.8190002441 208 ) ( 241.7760009766 111.3139953613 208 ) ( 241.7760009766 111.3139953613 240 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
( -45.1770019531 375.4429931641 208 ) ( -16.6790008545 369.7740020752 208 ) ( -16.6790008545 369.7740020752 240 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
( 50.8150024414 341.8260040283 208 ) ( 121.1119995117 294.8880004883 208 ) ( 121.1119995117 294.8880004883 240 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
( -128 383.6100006104 240 ) ( -128 383.3600006104 208 ) ( -45.1739959717 375.4429931641 208 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
( 243.1459960938 104.4279937744 208 ) ( 255 7.5010070801 208 ) ( 255 9.7949981689 240 ) common/caulk 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0
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which can cause bugs. so dont forget check .map file before final release

Nice. Didn't know that, how is it fixed? :o

Interesting!

Its lot more fun have new architecture , not just new items places.

Textues looks sucky - but ofcors it's just testing.

Very bad thing imo - YOU CAN JUMP FROM RL to NEW YA, now its more easy to have RAIL :( make some little wall or some shit..

AAANNNNDDDD bad thing is , that some ppl doing this remakes without PRO opinion. I can't work with map creating programs, but "screenshot + paint" could help with good ideas.

Textues looks sucky - but ofcors it's just testing.

All the textures are originals, untouched. Just need realigning.

i see textures are orginal,but new made "places" are sucky not completed.

need add some FLAG with skull, add skelleton, add torch :)

if things like this is to be taken serious by iD there might be few more QL maps that could be tweaked like this and actually get used then. for instance T6 etc.

They wouldn't even change dm12 TDM items to the dm12tmp set.

ah, ok. then such topics are just an academic exercise :)

Okay lets get some things straight:
1) This is a work in progress, means: dont go into details like lighting/look at the moment.
2) We will change the map from your suggestions, means if you have a good idea, post a mspaint pic or whatever so we can discuss it.
3) Its meant to be a duel map, maybe 2v2, NOT 4v4.
4) We will give you a q3 version once we are 'done' so you can play it vs real people.
5) @ GUARD > that some ppl doing this remakes without PRO opinion < What are we doing here? :D Every PRO can leave his ideas here and we will consider it for sure, thats the whole point of this.

Biggest discussion so far seems to be the tele (as expected) Thing is everyone seems to think its a disadvantage to the one who uses it, so theres actually no reason to remove it? :D

@ GUARD you might be right with to easy to get rail, I already have an idea. Will try that now

Generally MORE IDEAS PEOPLE!!!!!!

Camp at tele with armour + lead.

good point

but you will see so much nice frags! :DDD

you'd like to keep the tele?

if you insist on the tele, maybe place RA on one of the pillars, and put the tele where RA was so if someone is camping there you can at least see him/rail him

tho there might be a problem with the billboard

well I do not insist, if everyone is against it I will remove it BUT I personally think it adds new spice to the map plus nice frags, just imagine you have a rg and stand on mid level and kinda rail him into the tele and rail him once one when he comes out of it etc etc :D
I want the people to think about the tele a bit, what could happen in which situation before i remove it to quickly.
I'll think about your RA/tele suggestion now.
Thanks

Biggest discussion so far seems to be the tele (as expected) Thing is everyone seems to think its a disadvantage to the one who uses it

No.

"But we wont spend any time in new maps as long as they can't be added to QL."
isn't it exactly the same problem with this one ?

Yes it is, but its easy/fun to mess with a already existing map and you never know, maybe the map turns out great in the end and the whole PRO duel community wants to play it :>
The chances to get this added to QL is very slim tho, its a fun project.

Nice, I like it.

Please don't remove the tele, I think that's the most interesting change you have made.

It's hard to say if having the RA and mega tele close together will cause problems because there are many angles that someone can defend the tele spawn from.

Btw there is a small clipping bug when you move against the wall next to the shards while jumping.

interesting

Well done with the map! It's already soooo much better than the original one. However, I'd consider switching a tele with RA. Apart from that I love it!

really really nice...
i d really love this instead of the original one..i think its ok as it is now ofc with fixed and optimized gfx

dm6 and changes by me! 2gd

I've decided to write a small reply to the change yellack has made and dm6 in general.

Firstly DM6 how it plays is a very tense map, each fight means so much because the winner of that battle will most likely control the map and control its very easy to maintain so most pro's will only fight when they have one strong advantage to use. Control is easy
to maintain because of item posistioning and the routes you take to get them. its like (a to b, b to c (maybe) then back to a!) also on the defense of dm6 its hard to get a gun that makes a big
difference quickly.. picking up lg doesn't mean much vs a railgun player with position, and there is no spawn near enough to rl to allow you to pick it up before your enemy can get there with more
health and armour to cover it (especially considering most kills are made at mega or ra) RL is so easy to cover after you made a kill. and we all know how hard it is to get a railgun. So dm6 has become very stagnant imo.

My ideas I explained on the stream at esl tv, weren't all put into use, or even taken and used as i imagend, but that's not a problem, I just like the fact someone is changing stuff to the map.

But before i explain my ideas and what they can add to the map, lets look at dueling maps and some common trends.


Firstly Redarmour, Red armour is a 1st or the 2nd biggest powerups on a map if its there along with mega. You may notice something similar trends with Redarmours posistioning on some of the best dueling maps.

Aerowalk - red armour positioned on a ledge with no option to leave but forwards, its hard to get out from RA without being hit, and you can be traped in there and killed.
DM6 - Red armour positioned in the corner of the map, once again only exits will be towards your opponent, and you can again be trapped in
ztn - red armour positioned on a ledge, you can be trapped in, and once again you will have to leave at your own risk.
phrantic (quake 4)... you know where it was! in the corner in a fucking cave!

the common trend is, if you want to get RA you have to put yourself in a position where your opponent can ambush you, its normally also in the corner of hte map so you have to fight your way out meaning your opponent (who has less armour) will have hte option to leave the fight first. or he may want to trap and push for the kill

Its more important to have RA in the corners because, it allows trapping and ambushing, but trapping is the most important, If you trap and pressure the player taking RA and knock him down to 20hp before he picks up RA you can still move in for the kill! so the cornered player can still be killed. this is why you don't see mega in corner of the maps, because if you trap a player to 20hp then he picks up mega hes still ok to fight back. and your hard work cant be turned into a kill

Also because RA is in these hard to get out of corners, you will have a lot of fights before the item is taking to try secure the area, like on ztn when you try push your opponent away from grenade launcher platform before you know you can take RA, a good pre fight! and the to the victor the armour!

Now lets look at Mega, Mega is normally positioned center of the map, with many different directions to it so many different ways to ambush it, its also a great powerup to pick up during combat, so mega forces a lot of fights and action! we like action! woof!

DM6 - mega is center, its at a disadvantage position to take because your bottom level. and your
opponent can attack from many areas
aerowalk - mega center, also disadvantage position to take because bottom level, opponent again
can attack from all areas
t7 - ledge, center of room
t4 - ledge same, center map
ztn - middle map, 3 options to attack from (ztn is one of the safest megas to take though)
t9 - middle, bottom level, similar to dm6 but no railgun, but pit is smaller so rockets become stronger

but most the time its center map or center room, exposing the player wanting to take it

So we can all see the trends with these 2 items, these items really dictate how the players have to play a map, where they need to be and why, and regularly force fighting or peeking.

So i believe dm6 had those 2 items placed great for a dueling map, but the map is too big, it doesn't offer enough variety in your routes and control is too easy because those 2 big items are very very close to one another, and the strongest weapon on dm6 is constantly available to the player in control! because its by ra + mega

So... I wanted to come up with some changes

My first change which got put into the map slightly wrong was the teleporter, I wanted it to be a teleporter rune! the reason a rune (useable on click like in FFA) is because a teleporter doesnt offer a fight over item and its too easy to camp and will be overused!
but a teleporter rune would offer a nice fight over item. Because i wanted 3 YA's on the map so then you lose the big fight over RA. so you need another piece of candy to fight over apart from mega, and that was a teleporter rune! it would force people to fight it would spawn every 1-2 minutes, and i think would be an awesome addition to spectating and playing.

Just think, a fight at pillars for a teleporter rune could result in someone picking it up with 2 hp and instantly having to use it!
that's exciting to watch imo. its a similar style of fight to mega where you want to pick the item up the second it spawns cus it could result in a frag, but this time a lack of frag for your opponent.

Also, if a player has a teleporter rune and is able to use it to escape a fight, that might feel cheesey, but it all depends on the exit which is why i wanted the exit to be above mega, level with railgun ledge in height, with a vertical drop down. Now this means if you have a fight at old RA or even pillars, you can still find your opponent rather quickly! hes center and failing! hes gonna take fall damage!

But this also means the teleporter rune can be used as a another way to steal mega, you can use it to fall on mega, but also means because your falling someone can stand below you with lg and own you badly.

But the position of the rune at pillars adds an extra something with the YA, it makes that side of the map still very important to get, so it will further extend a dm6 player in control.

So RA in the corner I wanted to be replace with a YA, and a second YA on railgun ledge, this means a player in control to grab that 100 armour would have to work for it. making his route to keep control harder and longer (longer is the important word) giving the player out of control more time and options to pick up armours and guns to be ready for the next fight!

But i also heard a teleporter rune only teleports you to a spawn point, and obviously there is no spawn point above mega, so it might not be even possible. but maybe even to a random
spawn it would still work?

If not you might want to consider 2 teleports in dm6, one going to the top of railgun jump pad to make railgun a easier to grab item. but this will make it a larger version of aerowalk, and i think aerowalk worked because of the size. dm6 may be too big for that

of the single teleporter at YA, put it higher so you have to plasma climb or rocket jump into, that way its not overly accessible and usable

Kind Regards

James!

can I have the "small reply" instead :x

Basically, he's saying that Yellack didn't do a single thing of what 2GD suggested.

nah, he did :)

2GD's versions doesnt work like that cause the tele 'rune' has no specific 'exit' (ie above mh) and using it with random spawns would mostlikely be a mess.
Thx for the suggestions, will do some!

My first change which got put into the map slightly wrong was the teleporter, I wanted it to be a teleporter rune! the reason a rune (useable on click like in FFA) is because a teleporter doesnt offer a fight over item and its too easy to camp and will be overused!
but a teleporter rune would offer a nice fight over item. Because i wanted 3 YA's on the map so then you lose the big fight over RA. so you need another piece of candy to fight over apart from mega, and that was a teleporter rune! it would force people to fight it would spawn every 1-2 minutes, and i think would be an awesome addition to spectating and playing.

Just think, a fight at pillars for a teleporter rune could result in someone picking it up with 2 hp and instantly having to use it!
that's exciting to watch imo. its a similar style of fight to mega where you want to pick the item up the second it spawns cus it could result in a frag, but this time a lack of frag for your opponent.

Also, if a player has a teleporter rune and is able to use it to escape a fight, that might feel cheesey, but it all depends on the exit which is why i wanted the exit to be above mega, level with railgun ledge in height, with a vertical drop down. Now this means if you have a fight at old RA or even pillars, you can still find your opponent rather quickly! hes center and failing! hes gonna take fall damage!

But this also means the teleporter rune can be used as a another way to steal mega, you can use it to fall on mega, but also means because your falling someone can stand below you with lg and own you badly.

You can't designate your teleporter destination with a Personal Teleporter holdable -- it randomly chooses between all available spawn points.

complain to programmers!

Before we all get too into this, could you tell us if there's any chance id will make changes to dm6 or will it always be as it is? Campgrounds redux?

new maps or GTFO

GTKRadiant & GamePacks :)

and we can then play our new maps with bots, yay!

Medkit!

"Just think, a fight at pillars for a teleporter rune could result in someone picking it up with 2 hp and instantly having to use it!
that's exciting to watch imo." and "but it all depends on the exit which is why i wanted the exit to be above mega, level with railgun ledge in height, with a vertical drop down." "... hes center and failing! hes gonna take fall damage!" thinking much are we?

what if mega is up retard? :)

what if mega is not up retard

then he failed

Stop trying to sneak out of this. You didn't think about it, admit it! =P

and he has to use the rune, cus if he doesnt hell die anyways :) sigh

Summary? :-D

Or an index perhaps?

swap GL with SG, and remove teleporter and make RA - > YA

i think thats good, but also put a gernade launcher at the bridge, centre of bridge. useable to spam railgun, rl and ya. bring back the gernades! was my orig idea :)

actually, i would replace pillar gernade with plasma gun, cus plasma can defend YA amazingly if used well, then i would replace plasma wiht a shotgun, cus shotgun can be amazing mid lvl to fight above mega. and lower shotgun i would replace with 2 (5hp bubbles) or summin, not a 25 health cus then you have 75 hp available over at ya.

We will remove the tele!! :,(
We will change some guns
We will make a harder new YA to RG jump, if you fail you fall down to SG (if its still there) :>

I think RA @ pillars will be good balance when we removed the tele.
Give us a few hours for a new build and lets retry.

Thanks everyone!

i woulda liked teleporter rune + ya, cus a single ya still keeps it pretty weak. but with a ya at railgun ledge could balance it nicely

the holdable teleporter teleports you to a random position in the map (i asume its a random spawnpoint but dunno about that for sure)

and with RA at pillars it would be the classic RA on one side of the map, 2x YA on the other side of the map and mega in the middle.

yeah its random spawn point

but i understand why a red armour, alot of fights are heavy armour fights, rocket vs lg, wiht little armour your maybe see alot of railgun fights. so maybe ra would counter the railgun nicely

Suggestion: add shards to where the pillars-shotgun is.

UPDATE // NEW VERSION AVAIL // SAME LINK

Changed:
1) Removed teleporter
2) RG to new YA is a jump now which is visible from bridge pov
3) Other way round - new YA to RG only possible with Plasma-jump/climb
4) Removed Midlevel wall with 2 pillars (should be useful against RG)
5) Changed several gun suggestions from 2GD
Replaced GL with PG
Replaced PG with SG
Replaced SG bottom floor with another PG
Put the GL on bridge

I love it, hf!

(nevermind the GL @ Pillars please, it will be gone in the next build)

i approve, make the new area look a bit nicer and get it into ql and tournaments
;P

Just tested your "updated" version with the gap between rail and YA.

One thing that makes no sense, is to make it so risky to get the upper YA. Now you can either take this YA from rail, or from RL. From rail it's even riskier than getting the railgun; you can either go up the jumppad and along to rail then expose yourself again to jump across, or you can do b2r then another jump, exposing yourself twice to a potential railgun snipe (a single QL rail would more than remove the "reward" here). Or if you take it from the RL, then it's just begging to be railed and drop down to the bottom, or even machinegun or LG can push you. Even getting RA on ZTN is simpler (and the risk-reward makes sense there).

No offence, but it makes much more sense to just remove that whole new YA room section (nice creativity, but it doesn't work), and put a YA in the area between the shards and the lower shotgun.

I'd usually when you go for that area, the opponent will probably not even be around cause RA is on the other side of the map and might spawn at the same time.

well, all you just said adds quite a lot to the map dont you think? Many oportunities, moves etc if your enemy has a rail and sits @ ya/bridge you just shouldnt do the jump from rg to ya :>
It was to easy before when you could jump from rl to ya and then get a rg all protected from the wall. IMO

My issue is with the risk-reward logic. For RA & Mega, it makes sense to put them in vulnerable positions, and then you get the big 100 points reward if you get it undamaged, or even if you get quite damaged then it still leaves you "roughly" even from before you picked it up plus denying it from your opponent. That makes the gameplay "balanced" and logical. But what if you put a lesser reward like shards or YA or GL in a risky position, you can claim this makes it interesting/unique but actually this just makes the map retarded; the item will get mostly avoided anyway because the reward is so little compared to the risk.

(look up on what arqon has written about risk-reward being fundamental to almost every aspect of the game)

I think you overrate the risk of taking that jump cause atm lots of fights are in the bridge area due to RA being there, i'd say its less dangerous on this map cause the enemy won't be there that often.

Replace dm6 with a better map.

wtf i cant load it -_- i cant even run the earlier version witch was working fine earlier (just get cant find map ...)
ok now its totaly fucked up ;d i renamed it orginal name and left update version with difrent name when i load qzdm6R i get updated version (even tho its named qzdm6R2 :DD)

you didnt rename the map, just the package containing it

i think u should be able to jump from YA to RG, maybe add some stone in the wall to land on or something. i also think airstrafing from the jumppad to the upper YA is a bit too hard to be used effectively

do a skilled plasmaclimb :> It rox!

i wish id was able to let us test it and mod it after its played....on paper it should rox tho :D

I would love to test it in some games ;)

Havnt tried it yet, but if it hasnt been added yet. Weapon respawn 15.

er.. I'm pretty sure id's server settings control the respawn times :/

No they don't. It's 15 sec on rail on t4.

as guard said, it would that just favor the player already in control
why would you want it to be 15?

Because then weapon control becomes a factor. Why do u think it was 15 on all maps besides hub in vq3?

it sure adds another thing players can focus on to get an edge. but the main problem with dm6 is that it is so easy to playon when in control and 15sec respawn would just make it worse imho

I thought the thread was about a remade dm6. Not the old one.

ztn 5. hub 5. nodm9 5.
t4 15. dm6 15.

I stand corrected. In QL, there is the possibility of having different spawn times on different weapons. And would sure be nice to tweak it on some maps.

uh the problem with dm6 was control in the first place, you're just possibly recreating the issue by having 15 sec wep respawns..

ITS A NEW MAP WERE TALKING ABOUT. READ THE MAIN POST

i think people are saying by changing the weapon respawn time to 15, you stand the chance of negating any effects the physical changes of the map have on the in-control player.

Well, being afraid of recreating that issue isn't valid since we don't even know if the new version is better in the first place. Impossible to know without playing it. If we are trying to theorize the map to a good balanced state. Why not build it around weapon control as well? IMO key weapons should always be risky/hard to get, or controllable.

Examples where change would be welcome:
Rail @ ztn(wr 15 on that would be awesome)
lg @ dm6 (rail is already semi risky)

if a weapon becomes a key weapon on a specific map, than there is something wrong with the map itself .. imho

Agreed. But it's more likely that ID will add a weapon respawn fix than actually rearranging the map layout.

If wr15 then tl15 would be necessary.

Err, no? T4 is fine with 15 sec on rail, and only rail.

Yeah, but t4 is a completely different map. It's a lot more open, action-packed and it's virtually impossible to hold on to the control for more than for a minute or two when the two opponents play an equal game. Also, only the rail on t4 spawns in 15 secs, all the other weapons spawn in five.

I wouldn't be surprised if I got that kind of response from spartazord, foox, or some other new player, but from you? Why am I explaining that to an experienced player.

I wrote that it was only rail...

And on t4 being an more open map, I just don't agree on that. Smaller yes, but more open. No.

It's more open if you like having slugs to the face.

So, you insist on all weapons spawning in 15 secs on this new dm6? Or is it just about the rail, as well?

T4 is smaller, more open, and the way it's constructed makes much more direct challenges between players happen.

The main difference between dm6 and t4 regarding this discussion is that you can defend a weak position on t4 much more easily than on dm6. Interestingly, it's by playing a semi-aggressive or aggressive game - there's so little armour on the map that a player in control can usually withstand only 2-3 of those fights without dying or losing control. That is, if the opponent plays them correctly, of course. That's mainly why the rail respawn time was changed to 15 seconds instead of the standard 5 - to make the defence a little bit harder, to force a more strategical approach on the attacks by the weak player.

Dm6's problem is quite the opposite - defence there is rather impossible if the attacking player in control plays it 100% correct. So, when a map developer thinks about creating more balance on the map, he ought not to make it even harder to defend. That's why I'm rather opposed to making the weapon respawn time 15 seconds without giving more time for the defending player to work on his position by changing the timelimit to 15, as well. I'm not completely opposed to the idea on that new map, but I'd be really cautious about doing that anyway.

edit: typo

I insist on keeping it in mind when making new maps. It adds a new factor to dueling which I enjoyed in q3 and q4. For example keeping LG away from toxic on phrantic. Making it possible to win vs him without needing a 50% acc.

<3 lol

mav i think that what fazz is saying is that in old dm6 surely making the respawn time 15 would be worse.....but in a new map like this that the commuity made to reduce to possibilites of having total control for whole match changing weapon respawn would get a deeper tactical environment to the map that can help mind oriented players vs random aimers :D
u shouldnt consider this as adding 15 respawn time at the dm6 we all know...its just a completely new map and its something that should be tested imho :D

Okay, heres what we ll do:
As no1 seems to have any map changes, we ll do a Q3 version for you guys to test and discuss the wr times after that again.

(the new ya area and general gfx polish will not be done yet, so dont bother about gfx please)

Good idea. Wasn't there a gameplay setting that was more like QL? cq3?

Yep.

/cv gp cq3

Mode details including weapon damge and physic parameters.
http://www.promode.org/wiki/index.php/CQ3_Tec...Tech_Sheet

Edit:
btw. CQ3 has superior changes to Quake3 it's a pitty it never had chance to be standard. It only needs fixes to LG which has 10dmg and lower hit frequency because it doesnt give enough pleasure of hitting. We used to wonderful tiititititi sound of LG which indicates current accuracy so in CQ3 you feel like a lightning noob :>. Also interesting thing is that BFG is much weaker so it could be introduced to duel and TDM games. This would be awesome fresh breath.

Get five players of high skill but various types for feedback, along with two more people (who aren't quite elite players, but have a strong sense of game theory) for feedback. Have them play the shit out of it. Argue. Try everything. Argue some more. Rinse repeat.

Ignore everyone else.

ok we ignore you

Don't take it personally. It's not as if I'm telling everyone here to NOT give feedback. I'm in the same category as you.

I'm simply outlining a better procedure (Edit: IMO) to create and/or test modified maps.

relax i was joking

I'd love to get that going and do interviews for it, etc, but there's literally NO WAY we can play other people on it. The only way it could possibly happen is if Syncerror would spawn a few servers with that map on it. The problem is that if they put the map on the server, it could be that everyone else needs to download it, regardless of other users (It could be how the content downloading system works).

It's a possibility!

Yeah, I was wondering how all that shit works myself, with ID having all the server control.

But really, building a new Map with so much random input just doesn't get anywhere. Keep it small, and tight. Then after much deliberation make it beta to a larger audience.

looking forward to running about on it

er.. btw... does anyone own a Q3 server where we could test it on?

I thought it was ace,. my only thought was that fighting for RA would end up a complete railfest. You would never go up the jump pad so you'd be trying to nick an odd rail from below or the RL doorway.

As a remedy you could mirror the new YA compartment on the other side or something similar, without the YA of course. But with the aim of opening into the RA room onto the pillar that's attached to the wall.

Mind that may make it a little complex, but the thought is you could attack the RA position better.

Q3 Version of the map is ready to get tested!

1) If you own a Q3 server please let us know!
2) If some PRO's test it, it would be nice to get a demo of it.

heres the dl link: http://web.bethere.co.uk/hosted/map_qzdm6RQ3.zip

the map is still named: /map qzdm6r

Have fun and report please.

(you can find me @ #2k.clan btw)

replace one SG with NG
and here another my suggestions
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1781211

i think ur suggestions would make the map even more controllable than now for the leading player :D

.

dont get it.. from RL to YA to RG to Bridge?

callvote map qzdm6tmp, gg.

just 1 ya instead of ra, remove mh.

this map was absolutely awesome to play competetively.
i think cpl holland was the last tourney it was used.

did any1 out of noctis 2gd spartazord guard fazz etc play a competetive duel on it yet?

i dont know any q3 server where we can test it :/

lame excuses, host it yourself and rape everybody on 0 ping

Was interesting to look at, for sure. I like the second mid level with the YA - seems like it'd make it more ztnish, and not so "run-the-map" style of play.

lol, i just noticed that we created a new gun, looks very powerful, the new LSG! http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9016/shot0096.jpg
:D

WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE

Any screenshots?:D

screens: http://web.bethere.co.uk/hosted/rl.jpg
http://web.bethere.co.uk/hosted/rg.jpg

Looks nice! where did you get the inspiration from?

hmm, nowhere tbh, wanted to add another ya and that came in mind, works out pretty well imo

what about something like this:
http://n.ethz.ch/student/gnoris/download/qzdm6_texture_copy.jpg

its ok but not needed :>

Finally have a Q3 server! Whoever is up for a proper test, please contact me @ #2k.clan

Thanks,
Y

just add teleporter rune and 5 shards to pillars area and dm6 will be peeerfect enought. IMO teleporter rune should work as other spawns work and if it would, it would be a great item to help you stealing a main item. You could for example trick your opponent to fight you @ YA and then spawn to RA and steal it or you can go out of position in order to grap mh or ra and then just teleport out.. it would make wonders to gameplay.

Generally i dont understand why items like firstaid kid or personal teleporter arent used in any duel maps? imo they would add more depth. Currently there are only these two great carried up items, but i am sure that pro players could think of more..

Reupload possible? Or was it taken down due to some legal issues?

b2r$§))§$)$§"U)U$$§()ß9394ß9ß23

New DM6!!! Please, revive this! Also, screens don't work anymore.

dm6 is perfect for promode but i always wished more space and more routes on the lower level. i would add a second main room behind the rl-tower as opposition to the main room. could be connected with shotty and ra

and presto:

6++

:D

q3dm6-ctf asking for it since 2008

Already a thing bro. Amazing map.

any screenshots or videos? dont feel much like downloading the map and playing it based on what has been said, but im still curious how it looks.

2009 thread ftw!
Sorry but we wont pick this up again, a tweaked version of an old established map wont have any chance to get into QL.
And I don't think thats a bad thing actually, cause 50 people will like it and 1000 will say "WTF HAPPEND!?!" :D

New map > change old

Sure, just was curious D:

you're right, especially considering you cant make pefect map any better