"sure, we need more features than q3 gtv had to make it useful"

why

this was about gtv combined with shoutcasts.
so why? because its a pain in the ass currently and thus unsuited for events that target anyone besides the hardcore crowd.

HLTV had that, it never got used.

you need good bandwith for streams...lots of ppl are still on 1mb or even less.Some ppl just dont care about the shoutcasting and to be honest how will you attract the "non-hardcore" crowd if they wont even know whats the game about, I mean you want to attract a complete noob that maybe just heard from a friend or read from some forum about a game he has no clue about...A match like cooller-toxic would attract probablly every "hardcore" q player but it wouldnt mean a shit to a newb, gtv as in q3 version is all fine for me personally.

What was said on LO3? I only caught the end. I'd like to hear any good argument against GTV for QL.

The issue with syncing the cast with the game? You have to be a 'hardcore gamer' to figure that out? Ummm come on, it doesn't take a genius. Its not like that is some unsolvable problem anyway. It just will take some thought from the right people at id.

I see only positive reasons for having GTV, no negatives. Personally, I have very fond memories of watching awesome games in GTV. Streams are fine for now, but I hope its not the end-all solution.

And this is not to be taken as a whine/bitch post about why QL doesn't have this or that feature. I'm glad id has done what they have for the casters and streams thus far.

The syncing problem is even resolved if the shoutcasting would get embedded in the GTV.

To me though it seems like the Quakelive team is just dodging having to build a GTV. As all arguments seem invalid.

Yeah I agree.

syncerror was saying GTV is not pushing esports forward because observers can't hear commentators or some bullshit. Then one guy Slasher I think mentioned how HLTV even increased popularity of CS.

WE WANT GTV GODDAMMIT.

i agree it seemed like he was making a reason not to do it.

he was saying that they have many options.

i do understand the point about other organizations get to benefit from the streams. imo the streams have been shitty with low graphic settings. he qltv stream is ugly with the high contrast and intensity. atleast with a "gtv" feature we can watch the matches with our own settings.

it was kinda weird after sync came on he in the channel saying slasher was not supposed to bring up the topics that he did. I am glad slasher did bring up the topics. the topics he brought up are the hot topics that people talk about.

what i would like to see my self is a gtv like feature with shoutcasting embedded into it.

another thing that has always baffled me is why doesn the shout caster come on the gtv to cast?

he was saying that they have many options.

GTV > their many options

I agree, slasher should do stuff like this more, rather than shoutcasting.

Gotta stick with one's talents :)

imo this is one of the top reasons q3 is better than qlive (regarding the technical aspect of the games)

so true man so true. I'd give you a plus but then I lose popularity so fuck it.

Imagine watching QL matches on 1080p on your TV... all not really posible with the very ugly low quality streams

A website with something like a guide for upcomming matches / tourneys with TV support.. just click on a match you want to watch and the QL plugin startsup with 'embeded' sound from the caster. (ID can even incooperate ads and have more income because I guess it doesn't mather if somebody is playing or watching, the ads will be shown)

Everything could have been so much fun / pure quality if all good implemented in the quakelive website.

I just don't get the reasoning for not implementing such a thing.

And as more people already said don't see this as total whine.. Quakelive is really great, and the work done so far is also really appreciated ! and last update added some nice things for competative / spectators and such

For me it is really strange not adding a thing that is absolutly perfect fitted for QL

Exactly my point. I'd really like to watch this years quakecon matches on my large TV @ 1080p but I cant with the quality of the streams. =/

the finals @ qcon were projected on hd (i think 1080p) projectors, i've never seen quakelive look so damn good, seriously.

funny, ESL apparently just announced that they won't show any CS games via HLTV anymore and only via stream

hmm thats not entirely true...
They said that matches that are broadcasted via ESL.tv wont be shown on HLTV/WTV.

ah ok, just fast read the news

not to mention all the bandwidth savings

To sum up a bit the benefits of GTV:

- quality (those streams hardly let you even read what the players are typing ...)
- multiview (pick the pov you want and don't get annoyed by some silly settings like a CTF match with followkiller on)
- bandwidth (less lag)
- chat with other spectators (the Paco)
- own cfg

A stream doesn't even get close to what GTV can offer us.
There is also no contradiction between GTV and streams: You can always have both, no problem.

nice post :)

this.

There is not a single thing there which can not be achieved using streams

- quality : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P2PTV
- multiview: use multiple streams
- bandwith: see quality
- chat with other users: Oh the greatness that is gtv chat, a bunch of 20+ year olds acting like 12 year olds. Anyway you can have a chat app below the stream like the fnatic tournament had last week, or you can add chat to the streaming client or whatever.
- own cfg: Well okay this is the only thing which would not be possible using stream, then again all the streams I have watched used something sensible. And quake is pretty unique in that it allows you to tweak the graphics to such a high extent, so for other games it's not a issue at all.

Higher quality means higher bandwidth. Many people still pay for capped internet, and they can enjoy PERFECT quality on extremely small bandwidth using things like GTV.

- Quality: I've yet to see a stream with good (!) quality (that comes close to GTV).
- Multiview: So instead of just hitting a key you think there should be how many streams for a match? For example, 3 streams for CTF: 1 for each team and 1 with followpowerup on? Or even 9: 1 for every player and 1 with followpowerup on?
- Bandwidth: Not a problem for me, but for some people.
- Chat: Yea, you can add this. But most of the time it isn't available.
- Own cfg: Maybe not an issue for other games; but then again this is not about other games, this is about Quake.

And even if there are people who want to watch streams over GTV: Who is holding them back? If you want to watch streams, go ahead.
As said above: There is no contradiction. I for one - and a good many others - prefer GTV.
Be happy people like GTV, because it helps your stream lagging less. ;)

well put dude.

A stream is a simple solution which works for all games. Imagine if the WCG decides to pickup quakelive, and they had to broadcast every game using it's own type of gtv / whaagtv / hltv etc. It's a lot more work as simply having everything broad casted from a couple of streams.

Also gtv requires that you have the game properly installed and configured on your computer. Again if your watching something like the WCG from home and want to check out a couple of different games you don't want to have all those games installed on your computer just to be able to watch them.

A stream allows the creators to do some intresting production, like ESL for example. How is that going to be better with gtv?

And about bandwith savings etc, video compression is improving all the time, you have things like distributed streaming, fast internet is getting way more widespread and this is only going to continue in the future. I don't think it's that much of a issue anymore.

I think gtv was a smart solution in a era when bandwith limitations prevented realtime streaming, but the technology has improved and frankly it has become obsolete.

Also gtv requires that you have the game properly installed and configured on your computer. Again if your watching something like the WCG from home and want to check out a couple of different games you don't want to have all those games installed on your computer just to be able to watch them.

GTV itself is a third-party program. It's difficulty was almost completely removed when it was built into CPMA, and could just as easily be put directly into QL.

Nothing is stopping those big tournaments from also streaming the GTV or as they do it now, just spectate alongside the GTV and stream that. The argument of missing files is irrelevant as Quakelive is always up to date.

which part of "organizers dont HAVE to use gtv" did u not get?

Well then the people streaming should really make higher resolution / beter quality streams because at the moment I find streams not really enjoyable.. :(

Video streams will never get near the awesomeness of GTV:

- only with GTV you have max. video quality
- everybody can set the look of the game to his own preferences (fov, picmip etc)
- you can watch the pov you want (especially important for tdm/ctf)
- low bandwidth usage -> lower costs for provider
- gtv chat entertains during boring matches

The only real advantage that a vid. stream has is the synced audio commentary.
Audio commentary can improve the viewing experience in following ways:
- add excitement to the game (djwheat)
- explanation of game situations (2gd)
- jokes/banter
- background information / anecdotes about players (is rarely done)

but also worsen the viewing experience when:
- casters dont understand the game very well
- casters dont pay attention to the game and are babbling about smth else
- casters are shit at casting (repeating phrases, just say what players are doing)
- casters have annoying voices or fucked up mics

If you are not pleased with the audio commentary you can't turn it off in a vidstream because then game sound is also turned off and you miss a lot of the game (hitsounds).
This is why I never watched the stream of quake-live.tv longer then 2 minutes.

Personally, I really could live without any audio commentary if there was GTV, I dont really need to have the game explained to me, nor do I need 2gd joking around when I can have GTV chat.

Best solution would be GTV with synced audiocast, but as it seems, id software likes to disappoint the fans once again.

The only real advantage that a vid. stream has is the synced audio commentary.

Not really true. The real advantage of a stream is ease of use. And connected to that, the abililty to reach people who haven't installed the program (or can't be arsed with setting it up). Of course, a really well built stand alone gtv could solve that to a certain extent, but at the same time, most problems about streams are due to bandwith constrictions, which lessen constantly.

You are right, I completely forgot that you can use a vidstream when you dont have the game installed - this is indeed a big plus for video streams.
Though this still doesn't make GTV obsolete.

asif it was so hard to go to ql.com load the plugin install it and connect it <: almost the same effort is needed to watch a stream if you dont have all required codecs ,no ? :D

I think you are forgetting that QL is already a web-browser delivered game and can be installed in that same web browser that you use for streaming. That pretty much kills the ease-of-use argument for the stream.

"most problems about streams are due to bandwith constrictions, which lessen constantly. "

maybe, but still pretty much every stream I have seen had to buffer from time to time. Especially when obnoxious roomates decide they really want to use the internet, too. :<

I hate obnoxious roomates

yes, they should just pay rent, provide beer and stay the fuck away from our my internet.
Especially, those informatics PHDs, they got no business, there :<

Innit :(

Can't stand those computer degree dickheads. What do they fucking need internet for, they can just make their own...

Another advantage is that anyone can set up a GTV. If you wanna watch a bracket game of an opencup you're not gonna get ESL or QuadV to broadcast that. But you might well get a GTV with a nice audience of 20-50 people. Really, people that say gtv is "obsolete" are living in a fantasy world.

That's exactly the most important reason for making something like a QLTV happen.

Doing a video cast requires resources, in HSTV's case it is a studio that you have to provide for, hardware worth tens of thousands of Euros, servers that cost quite a lot on a monthly basis, and, at least two people in the studio at the time of the broadcast that will definitely not work for free.

My point is that no one will bother to use such resources to stream a final of, let's say, the third division Quake Live Clan Arena Open Cup. I know it from experience. And what I also know, this time from a players experience, is that there would be people wanting to watch it.

One huge argument to make GTV with added shoutcast possibilities is that if you noticed the last QLTV tournament they actually had some AD's going on, though because of the low quality stream it was impossible to read what the AD's said. So certainly it should be in id softwares interest to do a GTV+shoutcast over any stream.

Exactly my thoughts, GTV and embedded shoutcast would be the best :)

you just can't replace gtv with this, never. i mean, yeah, shoutcast is nice, but seriously, gtv is also about participating and writing down shit, spamming huge blocks of smileys, swearing, insulting people and good stuff like that. not to mention using your own cfg, and having the same in-game graphics.

stream is like a theater from the back row. things are nice and silent (boring) and you don't really see that much...

who the fuck can spam "FATAL1TY = LAKERMAN ?????" now?

fuck the stream. there must be a different way to fix the shoutcast, if it's so important...

gtv is epic win, a priority.

I think it should be easy to get the audio commentary stuff via internet radio stream. Its just a question of money in my opinion.

I wanna watch gtv and your voice over yahoo mess meanwhile, can you do that? thank you

I just dream that they could implement something like a gtv system to spectate a ql match (not only for big event but for all public servers too). Like that we could watch some pro matches without denying someone who want to play to enter in the server. We would just have to clic on the server / join as spectator.

laff @ ease of use for vid stream

not on shity websites that decide to work and not work at random times, after installing shitty plugins and having to allow a ton of different sites to run scripts

i had more trouble getting ESL to work than I ever have GTV

yeah

Another drawback of not having GTV is that we can only watch one match at a time. So we will miss a lot of interesting match-ups in the early rounds :(

I agree Nukm, but I don't think anyone at ID will read it right now, because it's QuakeCon time and I can only imagine how much work they are doing right now :))

The most important advantage of having a GTV, from ID's point of view, would be that it would undoubtedly boost the numbers of people viewing the Quake Live site, not to play but to watch the GTV. Maybe it would not be so important at first, when there's a lot of media hype and focus on Quake Live. But, in the long run, it would make an enormous difference.

Notice that there are tons of local leagues, internet tournaments, or LAN Parties that do not have any possibility of streaming or even sometimes obtaining a private server (on current conditions), due to it's small size. But, there are players playing there, sometimes good players, and there would definitely be people wanting to see them play.

To give a tangible example, can you imagine the EQLT Quick Cups being streamed every single time that the guys are playing? I can't, there's just so much to show. And people would surely watch it, because world-class players are attending in those tournaments almost every single time.

During my playing time in Quake 3 and Quake Live, I did organise both some minor Polish events and some really big ones too, a Polish WCG Qualifier, for instance, so I think I know what I'm talking about. And I cannot imagine how denying the access to something like a GTV tool would be good, both for the event organisers and for ID, who should care about people visiting Quake Live, after all.

When I started playing Quake 3, there were loads of tournaments set up in internet cafés, without or with little prizes, where people came to meet other players, play some games face to face, and have much fun while doing it. Right now, there are less tournaments like that (at least in Poland, in Quake 3/Live), but they still happen a couple times a year. And when I think about them, I cannot possibly imagine streaming some of them due to both technical or organisational reasons.

I think that ID doesn't realise that there is *much* more to Quake Live than the biggest events and this is what made games like Quake 3 or Counter-Strike what they are today.

edit: one last thing I forgot that rebut some of the things that Sync said in LO3. When the internet TV station I occasionally work for (HSTV) go to an event, every single time we sign agreements that we have rights to broadcast the event. Most of the time these are exclusive rights.

What I'm getting at is that if you have GTV, you can chose to either make a stream, showing ads of your sponsors on the it, make a nice show, put up a big effort to make the viewers really wanting to be there. But, if you don't have the resources, you can always set up a simpler GTV. With no GTV, there's no real choice. And it can backfire, because if you cannot set up a stream, due to whatever reason, you cannot show the event at all. And then everyone loses. Both the event organisers, the spectators, and ID.

Also, you may introduce something like a super-duper-premium account only for people that want to stream an event via GTV, that would cost a lot of money but you would buy, for instance, a 1000 slot GTV for, say, five days. And, you can still show your ads on it, ID. How isn't that a good deal?

I can't agree much with you.
Please post that on the official forum. I don't know if id's staff is reading the suggestion forum, but if only they could heard us, they would probably do something great. I hope :)

So... you mean you can't disagree with me aka. you can't agree more with me?

Or is it the other way around, I don't get it :))

I just full agree with you :P
Bad english inside :)

I obviously agree to most of you. GTV is needed. However, if you did not watch John Carmac's keynote yesterday, then please do so. He actually explained a bit why QL is at it's current state and that they will keep supporting it and also his visions/goals with it. Google it somewhere :)

I watched 3/4 of it, doing some breaks for little naps... damn, I knew I'd miss all the most important things. Murphy's laws ftw ;x

do you vaguely remember what he said? i cba to watch ~3hours of carmack talking about his iphone and voxels/polygons...

He did not talk long about QL. Perhaps 7-10 minutes? I was seriously tired and lost track of time. And I could not finish it either... I will however try to watch it when I have more time at a later stage!

But overall he said that he is happy with QL project. He did not think that it would take such a long time to develop it. But he explained why they have been so delayed. If I recall correctly the biggest delay they had was with the scoreboard/back end/performance issue. If that was not the main problem, at least it was a problem :)

He also explained that they will keep supporting the project and the 'pro settings' should have been implemented a long time ago, but they simply have been to busy, and also running into the back end problems that I already mentioned.

There was also a part of the speech where he mentioned that they will know in ~1 year if this project will be successful or not. They have not even started the markting for QL anywhere yet since it's not ready. When they are ready with most of the stuff they will start to promote it as well. When that happens we can probably see a significant increase in player numbers, and if they play their cards right hopefully many of them will stay. He finished the speech with his hopes that QL will be played for years to come.

Overall it was a positive feeling when he talked about QL and at least I was comfortable while listening to him. I only saw ~1 hour of the whole thing, but he really is a machine when it comes to talking :)

Perhaps someone can fill in the gaps.

thanks :)

np!

one reason give for it taking longer than expected is that they did it the standard "web" way and partnered with someone who already had bits to bolt together to make it easier. They have since gone bankrupt so id have had to go back and reimplement this stuff themselves. I got the impression he wished they had done it themselves in the first place

We should add another aspect to the list of benefits of GTV that might be important:

We're talking here about this from our perspective, as people who know Quake since a long time. But let's try to see QL from the viewpoint of a newbie for once.

Those beginners don't start off by looking for videos, tournaments or leagues. They don't know that QL-TV, GGL, ESL or Clanbase even exist. What new people do is installing the game and start playing. Sooner or later they will run into far better players, they will get slaughtered badly. Few people are realizing then that there is much to learn, but many will think there is something wrong with the game or their opponents are just cheating. Hence QL forums are full of cheating accusations - easily 99 % from beginners. They just don't know what can be done in this game. Most of the time they never listen to explanations that there are players who are just that good and playing this for many years. They think these stories are made up to hide cheating or something. That aimbot video on youtube is proof enough for them that cheats are there and they're sure that happened to them.

GTV could have a huge impact in this scenario. The main reason for all those accusations is that they don't know better. Best solution is to just show them what's possible. And the easiest way is to show them what top players are able to pull off. A simple GTV link next to "Play Online" and "Practise" is all what's needed. It could not only be used to broadcast QuakeCon matches, but also be active non-stop, and when there are no tournaments just connect to the server with the highest skill ranking for each gametype. That way newbies would realize what were done to them is just normal play of veterans. And they will see a lot of stuff useful for their game.

Discussions in forums would turn from "Did you see that wallhack video?" to "Just watched player X and the amazing stuff he does!".
Imagine you played soccer in some local league and never have seen anything else. Now if some world-class team dropped by and hammered you into the ground, you would also think they were all on steroids.
To make a long story short: The cheating accusations are mostly a result of a lack of information. A GTV button on QL's main page could have a big effect to turn sceptical people into fans.

Best regards

It could not only be used to broadcast QuakeCon matches, but also be active non-stop, and when there are no tournaments just connect to the server with the highest skill ranking for each gametype.

One of the best new ideas for Quake Live I've heard in a while.

Few months ago I downloaded some go ( a chess type boardgame ) client to play with friend, and it had that, I could just check some highly ranked game or a game where was some 160 spectators. And there is those games with high skill and pretty large amount of spectators at any given time.

Lower and middle ranks were given by some elo type of system, highest ranks were only given by the go network administrators.

If anyone wants to check how it works more closely, igs-pandanet,
or just download a client that works on the igs-pandanet ( like PANDA-glGo ) and experiment.

Please, forward RexCramer's suggestion and your go-game to SyncError - seriously!

well, i started playing quake because i saw a picture from fatal1ty on a package in a store around 4 years ago - so i asked myself "who is this guy?". i googled fatal1ty and i saw ingame videos from quake 4.

thats my story.

Kind of sad

thank you for sharing.

My deepest sympathies :(

gay

nice
[+]

quakecon sync audio commentary wasnt sync (funny to hear them but see them speaking delayed) and it sucks so hard. I wish I could turn it off. Except 2GD would have done the commentary.

2GD's commentary is $$$

Tournaments like Quakecon would definitely use GTV, but I wouldn't be able to see a company like ESL using it. It needs to push out as much advertising as possible, so they'd stick to streams. It's understandable, and I don't have a problem with it. I rather a tournament use a stream and remain somewhat profitable than to give out a free GTV, struggle, and possibly fail.

EDIT: Sorry, ESL would probably GTV the matches that aren't being broadcasted over stream (I forgot that's what they do with CS).

Yeah, but if you have a GTV, you have a choice whether to use it or not. If there is no GTV, you are completely unable to broadcast 99% of the interesting games occurring in QL on a daily (praccy games) or weekly (small tournament games) basis.

That obviously isn't very good for QL :<

Where can I see the lo3 speech by syncerror?

the fuck you need a petition for bitch , just make that shit

and bring me a sandwich!

lol

esl dubai used octoshape and it's fuckin awesome. best stream i saw.

poor chances a free stream this quality happen again in near future, it was a gift from esl because of special circumstance

are you nuts? that sucked ass!

it didnt
but esl wouldnt use gtv for their big events anyway, its for the smaller tournaments and matches that arent broadcasted

I would rather pay 30$ for quakelive, and get to have private servers and all the features people pay for. And have a GTV. People may argue that 5$ or whatever a month will make more money. But I'm for sure as hell not gonna pay per month to have a private server. So surely id would rather have my 30$?

GTV would get many more viewers than a stream. I for one can't watch the streams as my cuntry's(no spelling mistake) internet service sucks.

wake up ID, this is the shizzle.

We need it... Excuses? see my avatar u mongs!