Oh and I just got informed that quoting the changelog could result in me getting banned from the focus. Didn't think of that for 2 reasons:
1- 3 days till release
2- its just one change, if somehow it changes back at the last minute, then so be it. Up to the developers.
I play WoW alot these days and everyt change in test realms gets posted there without any sort of bans. Everybody also fully accepts it might change again, so I didn't see the big deal at all in this case.
Other developers do this. It's probably a PR deal when the open beta is public enough to potentially harm the game's reputation if they screw something up horribly. Screwing something up horribly is pretty much a guarantee when you don't have internal QA, typical of small developers or at least small development teams.
"harder to hit" is for every weapons. the new hitboxes aren't only for rail.
you really think that the only way to take back map control is rail ? wtf ?
let me guess, you're a fucking rail whore with no movement & track/"battle" aim.
what you like is basically this : "okay, let's take a good positioning with rail, let's predict
the opponent movements, and let's pixel rail, woohoooo i'm toxic, i'm 2gd, woohooo, he
had like 200 200 and know he has 40 25, niiiceeee, now all i have to do is +forward him
with ssg or 3525264 ups rox".
seriously, learn to aim with lg. and i'm not speaking for myself when i say "lg is too weak",
just watch pros matches ffs, you'll see what i mean....
all the weapons are fine i guess (maybe sg is a bit too strong but hey, could be a good
thing in fact), except the fucking senseless 7-6-5 lg....
If the opponent has 200/200 and you need the RG because you obviously can't take any retaliatory damage, you shouldn't be coming back... you should be getting destroyed.
No. If that was true then why can a skilled player always retake control on maps with no rail? And on maps with rail, the guy in control can just as easily have a railgun too and also chip away at his weaker opponent. Rail is just the way that "some" players retake/retain control (mainly people who hit high rail percentages and it's their strong weapon). There are many other ways to play.
100 dmg was always FAR too large of a reward for a one-click unlimited-range hitscan weapon. Other weapons put you in significant danger, so there is a risk-reward balance. The machinegun in QL is also a joke (it should be strengthened for duel), which makes the railgun totally dominant at longer ranges.
Yes, but it's supposed to be dominant at longer ranges. However, just how much damage the Rail should do is where I break-off and separate from the theory elite. Its range and functionality is enough. That alone makes it matter; and that alone is enough to make it ALWAYS MATTER, even at reduced damage.
We've heard the argument before (Argument X): The damage has to be upwards of 80 (or more) for the gun to have an impact - a reason for existing. Any less, and the integrity is now in question.
Welllllll that depends. I think a strong case could be made for less. It comes down to a question of what kind of gameplay is one promoting here? There certainly isn't any absolute resolution of such inquiry. Design decisions are made for influence in the direction of design goals. Change goals, change design, change rationale and finally change argument. All of this flows into my next point about the MG...
Now we can get back to a portion of Argument X. Now we finally have a decision here. The rail's "reason to exist" finally starts having less reasons to exist with a stronger MG. And on and on we go... down branching paths of complexity.
Summary:
Stronger MG does more damage to rail's integrity/gameplay (as well as a plethora of other things) than reducing rail damage. In a sense, I'm railing against the norm ;)
There does come a point when the rail damage CAN go so low as to be mathematically and functionally broken - when other guns will do equally as well. But I don't have all day here...
So how does it feel with all the other changes ( the main one being hitbox changes; I presume there are some other changes as well?)? Does it feel balanced? And is the LG weaker or stronger overall now? I liked the strength of the rockets before :(((
I would be incredibly surprised if it remained 7dmg for open beta. For some reason devs seem to be infatuated with this range-based scheme. Have to keep the "+back and weapon 5" alive! :/
1- No I honestly didn't know a single line in the changelog would get me banned. after reading about the hitbox thread. But I do admit one line is the same as the entire thing. I just thought "if they posted the hitbox change on esr, why not this?"
2- I thought it was bs that I would get banned after Noctis told me over qlive chat and decided to let this thread stay instead of deleting it. This isnt a government project or anything.
3- And finally, what is with the hostility in this thread. I posted some info, decided to let it stay, id software or syncherror went by the rules and banned me as punishment. What are you guys so sore about then?
Not deleting this post is actually my way of showing I dont give a shit?
My argument isn't even based on whether I give a shit or not. It's based on my disagreement for a need of secrecy in this matter as I believe that more discussion will bring greater good to the game instead of some weird secret ring that will supposedly reflect everyone's opinion.
I don't agree with it either but it doesn't change the fact that it's closed for some reason, possibly because it's a risk of someone fucking up and ruining the game, which would be worse than the majority having to wait. well I dno, whatever reason you had, sure you didn't have bad intentions.
Thank you for seeing that I don't have bad intentions in the matter.
My train of thought can be weird sometimes but in my core I am the same as the next quake lover. I honestly want what is best for the game based on whatever way my opinion sways me to. Same as everyone really.
oh come on, they probably told you that you have to keep it a secret before letting you in, didn't they?
I mean I sure appreciate the news, and I don't think tests like that must be secret, either.
But I also disagree with going against your own word. Should have thought on your views about secrecy before joining, imo.
Why tell everyone here? It's going to result in a bunch of whine from people who haven't even USED the new LG damage. It's useless to frustrate people over nothing.
Also, the hitbox news was official QL news, made public by QL. The new hitboxes wasn't a secret.
I didint see it was a news item. I just saw the article on esr and assumed. ppl make mistakes right?
Also what does using the new lg have to do with anything. Its math. Not some netcode change or anything.. Also they DID use the "new" lg. Everyone has... Why? cause 7-7-7 is basically back to q3!
No, people dont know how exactly aiming will be affected by the hitbox change. Lg damage change is just math and comes down to how fast you can potentially kill a 200/200 opponent versus the old value. And considering the closeness to the original q3 value It isnt too hard to guess.
how fast you can mathematically kill an opponent is not very important... the fact that LG cripple is gone has a bigger effect on the LG's strength than 1 dmg reduction imo...
i hope it'll stay as it is when the new update comes out.
7-7-7 ftw.
cuz 7-6-5 =
close range -> rox > shaft
med range -> ssg > shaft
long range -> rail >>> shaft (which is ok, but still, impossible to +forward someone with rail, and don't tell me "use your brain", pls....)
you said useless shaft ;) ? the shaft is useful only @ t9 & dm13 lol. and i'm gonna love the
"out of ammo"... okay *shaft battle, 150hp/100ap, fight !*, *hitsound hitsound hitsound*,
*47% accuracy*, *out of ammo*, *80hp left*, okay, let's +back & restack....
@mirror5 : it's your logic that doesn't follow...
It's obviously the same thing now...
And in a range fight, shaft would be overpowered versus a 80 rail damage.
At least, SG and RL should be fine now... In fact I hope -_-'
No it's you who doesn't get it. If a player uses railgun at close-range, he deserves what he gets. Every weapon has its optimal ranges and bad ranges, but the difference is that you should still be in some danger from another weapon (risk-reward is the key to weapon balance). That's why LG vs RL battles happen all the time in almost every game, and sometimes plasma, grenades, etc. get tossed into the mix as well. But at long-range, the railgun is virtually uncontested (with only mg to be a nuisance).
Good choice not replying again, at least wear a helmet if you're going to attempt to bang your head against the wall in future (see spyte and beck's replies)
Hopefully id is not completely clueless, and knows that they have to significantly increase MG damage for the revised hitbox.
Even before revising the hitbox, the QL MG is already badly underpowered for duel mode. Yes id was thinking about other modes like CTF, which is fine, but 1v1 balance got hurt in the process.
rocket launcher has become more important but in the broad view is still inconsequential, there are of course exceptional talents who use RL and even PG to great effect
i guess things will never change, come quake 5 it will be the same old shit
i do not care about the 16 best players and how they exploit quake
i talk about 99% of players in casual play using those 2 weapons since well before quake live came around
change for sake of change is not stupid if it revitalizes gameplay aspects that are stale since the y2k bug was a talking point
the effect of the new hitboxes on LG and RG use is a moot point, because in a couple of days / weeks, depending on how much effort the proclaimed top players put into readjusting their playing style / adjusting to the new circumstances we weill be back at square one
an adjustment to weapon damage i would highly anticipate, catering to the whiners across all skill levels
which will ruin a great thing...
the use of rg and lg is so bloody ingrained in all q3/ql players that changing it becomes nigh impossible
So wait. You first disconnect the top players from the discussion and say we need to nerf the LG because it dominates RL on lower level (which it doesn't). Then you continue saying that the top players will adjust to the changes and will continue having the same accuracy as before (which they won't).
Why do you mix casual and top players? Casual players never play versus top players and vice versa. Casual players won't have more than 20% LG and as a result the 7-7-7 will even prove to be less deadly than 7-6-5 before.
Stop talking about something you haven't tried and know nothing about.
Ok, I hope it will get fixed. I'm dying in all sorts of strange situations that I've never experienced before, not to this degree. So I'm not playing more until it's supposed to be fixed. Probably just me anyway though :(
I always thought it was just an large amount of backwards reconciliation; when you clicked to shoot, you were on target, and the server has to spend more time "reconciling" its logs, and then confirms the hit. Hence the delay of shot. Is there somewhere I can go to find an indepth answer to this; a quake live forum somewhere or something? Thanks!
Might wanna stop living in the past, aon is fine, and tele2 gives the best ping possible next to blizznet, since they even use blizznets infrastructure in vienna.
because upc connections produce the worst pings everywhere. Even at my familys place i got stable 30ms to germany with aon, and thats 100km south of vienna somewhere in the woods.
Excuuuuse me princess, but I played on foreign servers the last month where I pinged from 60 up to 100 and was still able to dominate players of my skill level with pings of 30 (not all the time, of course). No fucking way this would be even thinkable without the new, BETTER netcode.
QL netcode is great, you backwards persons who moan about changes weird me out!
I was in the focus group once, I was happy.. my life was full of purpose...
Then I was tragically kicked out for something as trivial as I don't actually play the game and there was no reason whatsoever to have me in the group.
the latter.
"different league" makes it sounds as if someone might actually be able to compete with him.
And he really destroyed that scale. Literally.
what kind of focus group is this? Why is raist in it? Does he even play the game? Why not get people who play it a lot and play pubs and what the majority play.
Did you rage over tf2 because it's a team game where you actually have to use gamesense and teamwork or maybe you haven't played it at all so your argument is nullified? I'll go with all of the above (If it was possible)
Did you just defend tf2 on 'not being a cunt game' by saying 'IT HAZ TEAMPLAY' even tho it clearly has a limited personal skill ceiling and even without it you can achieve as great,possibly greater teamplay in games with a high skill ceiling, like qw?
discussing this without knowing the full list of changes is stupid anyway
btw is there any argument against range based dmg besides "randomness" and not being q3 like? i personally thought it worked okay. mid range the lg dominates just by the way its designed and in close combat it helps to make the gun not completely useless.
and some personal whine: god, why are there so many asses in the focus group? i tried to get in and i am active and would like to help. but hey, great choice of members id...
Why not reverse the falloff? At closer ranges it would encourage switching to rocket and encourage keeping your opponent right at the tip of the beam, with the caveat that if you push it too far you will do 0 damage due to the range
whats with the flame, this is how balancing works.
its evident that the lightning gun is not going to do enough damage with the fixed hitboxes, so they change it. maybe 7 7 7 is overkill, but it's still up for chance.. and maybe the rate of fire time was decreased a bit? who knows...
Love it! - hated the fact they changed it from Q3 to 7-6-5. Love it now its back at 7-7-7. The old QL damage made the LG a less rewarding weapon at distance where at distance its more skillful/harder to use.
Now Cypher and Cooller are gunna own more so than usual :D I think they paid ID off just before the next big tourneys ;)