Your suggestions seem to be from a newbie point of view. The problem isn't "instant spawn kills", it's spawn control. There is no proper way to do a spawn system that doesn't add as many problems as it solves.

Actually his first method is a pretty good idea, the only problem i can think of is that it gives too much power to the guy that just died.

How does that help at all? If you're good enough to know where your opponent will spawn in any of the locations that you'd kill him, you'd know where YOU would spawn when you get killed. All it does is dumb down an already dumbed down system.

I don't follow your logic.

"Your suggestions seem to be from a newbie point of view."

First sentence is ad hominem attack, nice :)

"The problem isn't "instant spawn kills", it's spawn control."

Very mysterious, the meaning of this... are you saying that because spawn control is a problem instant spawn kills should stay? Please explain.

"There is no proper way to do a spawn system that doesn't add as many problems as it solves. "

You imply that because every spawn system will have problems every spawn system is equally bad.

"How does that help at all? If you're good enough to know where your opponent will spawn in any of the locations that you'd kill him, you'd know where YOU would spawn when you get killed. All it does is dumb down an already dumbed down system."

???

In case you're misunderstanding, here is what would happen under my first proposal

1) You would die
2) The game would randomly select a spawn point from the 40% etc as usual. I assume right now it chooses it when you click, instead it does it when you die.
3) The camera moves to the randomly chosen point where you would spawn. If your opponent invalidates that spawn by moving it reselects and you see from there.
4) You can click, if there isn't a wall of plasma in your screen, or if there is you wait until it either goes away or five seconds have passed and you get full randomed.

All this does is eliminate randomness, which favors the less skilled player. I don't call that 'dumbing down'.

You take it as an attack, but it wasn't. You're clearly seeing the game from a lower level, and you're making mistakes on what you think is the problem.

Very mysterious, the meaning of this... are you saying that because spawn control is a problem instant spawn kills should stay? Please explain.

The problem is the ease of controlling where your opponent spawns. If you are good enough, you should know where you will spawn, and know that it is dangerous to simply spawn in. Giving away free information to people who DON'T know this solves nothing, and lowers the bar at which people are already using the current system. If you are not good enough to know about the spawn system, and your opponent does, this is a problem for matchmaking, not spawns.

You imply that because every spawn system will have problems every spawn system is equally bad.

Yes... and?

All this does is eliminate randomness, which favors the less skilled player. I don't call that 'dumbing down'.

What you believe to be random is not really random, just the lack of experience on your part. You're only looking to lower the bar on a system that DOES have structure. I'm not saying your system is bad, per se (as they are both equally bad), but there's no point in change just for the sake of change.

"The problem is the ease of controlling where your opponent spawns. If you are good enough, you should know where you will spawn, and know that it is dangerous to simply spawn in. Giving away free information to people who DON'T know this solves nothing, and lowers the bar at which people are already using the current system. If you are not good enough to know about the spawn system, and your opponent does, this is a problem for matchmaking, not spawns."

A premise of this argument is that a spawn cam only reveals information to lower tier players and that pros, having miraculous knowledge of whether they will get unlucky on a 1/4 chance, will be unaffected. Obviously this untrue since pros get killed this way.

Furthermore, it's not as if a pro player is much better at avoiding spawn frags than a high-intermediate one. Overall I would say they favor a player who is decisively better, but only because he kills his opponent so much more - in other words, it only helps the better player when they are significantly ahead and the point is moot.

" You imply that because every spawn system will have problems every spawn system is equally bad.

Yes... and?"

And that's a terrible argument. There are clearly tiers of badness. Would you like me to list spawn systems that are worse than the current one?

Obviously this untrue since pros get killed this way.

An impatient "pro" is not a pro. Even still, while a pro can know if a spot is not dangerous to spawn in, you can only delay your spawn for a short time, and your opponent knows this as well. How can this help newbs at all? With matchmaking, you should be playing a player of relatively equal skill, and shouldn't be fighting a player who knows how to do this if you can't handle it. Again, this is an argument for matchmaking, NOT spawns.

And that's a terrible argument. There are clearly tiers of badness. Would you like me to list spawn systems that are worse than the current one?

Yes, there are worse systems than what we have. However, all the equally "best" alternatives have equally bad drawbacks.

"An impatient "pro" is not a pro. Even still, while a pro can know if a spot is not dangerous to spawn in, you can only delay your spawn for a short time, and your opponent knows this as well. How can this help newbs at all? With matchmaking, you should be playing a player of relatively equal skill, and shouldn't be fighting a player who knows how to do this if you can't handle it. Again, this is an argument for matchmaking, NOT spawns."

If so, then anybody a pro attempts to spawnfrag is, logically, not a pro, since if they were it wouldn't be attempted as pros never get spawnfragged. So we can just go down the list of people who have ever had plasma spammed at their potential spawns on ztn and take all of them off the pro list.

"Yes, there are worse systems than what we have. However, all the equally "best" alternatives have equally bad drawbacks."

This isn't a meaningful statement because it boils down to 'all equal systems are equal', which isn't actually an argument.

Again, if you delay a spawn, and your opponent delays his spam (or simply does it for longer), you still die. Now, if a player spawned in when he was vulnerable, that makes him bad. Being able to see this just makes it so you don't have to know to delay it.

This isn't a meaningful statement because it boils down to 'all equal systems are equal', which isn't actually an argument.

Either you can't read, or you don't understand. The argument is that ALL suggested spawn systems are equally "good" (relatively), but they all have equally bad drawbacks. Changing to these other systems when they're only as good as what we already have, but just as bad in different places, is pointless. Either offer something productive, or don't offer anything at all.

"Again, if you delay a spawn, and your opponent delays his spam (or simply does it for longer), you still die. Now, if a player spawned in when he was vulnerable, that makes him bad. Being able to see this just makes it so you don't have to know to delay it."

I honestly don't know how you can issue a blanket statement about anybody who dies this way 'being bad' when it happens to pros, as you can see by the fact that pros attempt these kills against other pros.

"Either you can't read, or you don't understand. The argument is that ALL suggested spawn systems are equally "good" (relatively), but they all have equally bad drawbacks."

And the logic/proof behind this is...? All spawn systems are bad/have issues, we all know this. That doesn't imply in any way that all acceptably bad spawn systems are precisely equal.

I honestly don't know how you can issue a blanket statement about anybody who dies this way 'being bad' when it happens to pros, as you can see by the fact that pros attempt these kills against other pros.

Yes, and it's only possible to delay your spawn momentarily. A good player should delay it unless they are CERTAIN that it is safe. However, a good player who has killed another player can still delay his spam, or continue his spam longer, if he is sure of the spawn point. I don't know why I'm having to tell you this 3 times, in different ways. What is it about this (very basic) part of the game that you don't seem to get?

And the logic/proof behind this is...? All spawn systems are bad/have issues, we all know this. That doesn't imply in any way that all acceptably bad spawn systems are precisely equal.

Many, MANY, years of debate and testing. Welcome to Quake.

"Yes, and it's only possible to delay your spawn momentarily. A good player should delay it unless they are CERTAIN that it is safe. However, a good player who has killed another player can still delay his spam, or continue his spam longer, if he is sure of the spawn point. I don't know why I'm having to tell you this 3 times, in different ways. What is it about this (very basic) part of the game that you don't seem to get?"

That you can spam longer and still kill somebody who delays disproves my point how...? What exactly is the benefit of partially random spawnkills?

"Many, MANY, years of debate and testing. Welcome to Quake."

Yeah, sure. Welcome to debate 101, if you can't cite your sources don't bring them in.

That you can spam longer and still kill somebody who delays disproves my point how...? What exactly is the benefit of partially random spawnkills?

There is no partially random to it. Either you know where you will spawn, and the danger of spawning in, or you don't. I never said anything about this system being good, but merely that your suggestion makes it even worse.

Yeah, sure. Welcome to debate 101, if you can't cite your sources don't bring them in.

If you can't use the search function on ESR, don't make posts. You're not going to last long on this site. With your knowledge of the spawn system, I wouldn't give you very long in QL, either.

edit: typo

"There is no partially random to it. Either you know where you will spawn, and the danger of spawning in, or you don't. I never said anything about this system being good, but merely that your suggestion makes it even worse."

Whether you die or not is partially random, no matter how good you are or whether your opponent delays his spam, since however well your opponent forces there is a chance you will spawn elsewhere.

"If you can't use the search function on ESR, don't make posts. You're not going to last long on this site. With your knowledge of the spawn system, I wouldn't give you very long in QL, either."

I know perfectly well what the state of discussion is on the spawn system and I've never seen anything backing up your absurd claim that every possible playable spawn system with every possible set of tweaks is equally bad. All bad, yes, but equally?

Whether you die or not is partially random, no matter how good you are or whether your opponent delays his spam, since however well your opponent forces there is a chance you will spawn elsewhere.

No, it isn't random. At all. Where do you get this idea?

I know perfectly well what the state of discussion is on the spawn system and I've never seen anything backing up your absurd claim that every possible playable spawn system with every possible set of tweaks is equally bad. All bad, yes, but equally?

You don't, as you have proven that you don't even understand the basics of the current spawn system.

"No, it isn't random. At all. Where do you get this idea"

If he is wrong about the spawn system being partially random please explain to me why I can force a spawn for a couple of times but at some point my opponent is spawning somewhere else even if I don't move?
Just from my experience with the game I'd say you're going to respawn on a spawnpoint that is one of the farthest away from your killer which does make the spawnsystem partially random. If you are still convinced that the spawnsystem isn't random at all please record a demo where one spawn is forced at least 50 times in a row without the killer moving to prove your statement.

No, he's saying that dying is random.

Oh, my bad. Thought he was referring to spawnkills when he said "Whether you die or not is partially random"

what? No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Whether you die or not is random because whether you spawn at the vulnerable point or not is random. Good lord how can you not get this.

It's not random - we just went over this. Christfuck, pay attention.

I guess I was right then :)

But that still doesn't make your suggestions worthwhile. Your first idea would actually give more disadvantages to the killed player than advantages even for medium skilled players. This system probably wouldn't even give an edge to the killed player on a noob level since as soon as they figured out how to force spawns they know when their opponent is forcing a spawn onto them and start to delay spawns rather quickly + it takes away the opportunity to see itempickups when they just died in a fight for RA/MH.

From your second idea you'd probably expect almost the same spawnpoints to be chosen as the current spawnsystem does minus the spawns that are in the killer's line of sight, why gather any data then? (I know the percentages are made up but still that's pretty much what it'd turn out to be. And from an business point of view, writing an algorithm to calculate a spawnpoint by taking killer's possible routes into account would generate so little revenue that no game-developer in the world would bother doing that.

But I don't know what all the fuzz with the spawnsystem is all about anyway, as far as I'm concerned it is just fine, kills within the first 30 seconds after respawning will happen no matter which system you will use and I think that the current spawnsystem is quite good for 10 minute matches since forcing spawns can make comebacks within short timeframes very possible.

Just because you can't think of one it doesn't mean it can't be solved.

How can you sit there and call people noobs, then make a massive statement like a problem cannot be solved in a game whilst demostrating no professional game development expereince-because I assume if you were REALLY qualified to make such a statement then you would be hot property in the world of game dev?

Did you really mean to say the problem can't be solved by you and is therefore impossible to solve.

Or do you mean the problem can't be solved by anyone and you're encapsulating the entire knowledge of everyone who works with videogames because you're that qualified?

I just curious to see what we're dealing with here.

By all means, prove me wrong.

Well that's not what was said and I'm not going to publically solve a holy grail issue of game design.

What I will say is the spawn code itself needs to employ two major things which no one is even close to doing which is why if you're thinking along the conventional route you'll never solve it.

Firstly, it needs to stop working volumetrically and gain a better understanding of how long it takes a player to move around a map on a map by map basis instead of assuming that distance = success. That's simply not true in the world of quake.

Secondly, it needs A.I. type features which analyze several important feautres such as...

What weapons does an attacking player have.
What health/armour does an attacking player have.
How long will it take a player to get to a weapon assuming competent play. This is all logic that chess programs have had for decades.

Once the spawn code thinks more like a player, it can make more informed choices on a map by map basis, as opposed to a one rule fits all.

Spawn code should not always give you the best possible spawn, all it should do is give you a fighting chance.

But you can also argue that spawn raping isn't a problem becasue if it works for one then it works for the other.
So the "problem" balances itself out.

you can also argue that its not worth writing so much code just to "fix" problems that appeal to such a small userbase and only then to high skilled players of it.

So its definitely solveable in the deepest sense or possible to make it acceptable, but do I belive it ever will be?

Not for a long time because unless its hideously designed game its only a problem for a small group of people.

You also need to esnure that the people designing the maps are able to play it from the eyes of a top player.

Most simply can't.

Yes, and it also needs to cook, clean, and do the dishes. It's easy to say what would be good, but you've even admitted that you can't come up with even a single example of how. Not only that, but the vague "just do this" examples you have given have been the subject of failed discussion for years.

All this ignoring the fact that the examples you have given are extremely terrible.

And don't really solve any of the problems with respawns and would simply make them slightly less shit.

What are you and your merry band of trolls talking about?

I gave very real and workable examples of the direction that needs to be taken to address the issues you're talking about.

FACT #1 If the spawn code had a real understanding of how the player could move around a map, as opposed to working on nothing but volume, it could therefore place a player in a better position.
It could do this because it would have a conscious idea of how long it takes to get places, instead of drawing flawed conclusions.

FACt#2 If the spawn code kept track of other aspects of the game such as health/armour of the attacking player, upcoming spawn times, its more than possible that the game could quite easily make informed decisons as to what an attacking player is going to do next.

Watch any pro demo, when someone dies, pause the game.

Look at the attackers health armour, consider the upcoming spawn times. Are you telling that based on those factors alone there is not enough information there for the game to somehow determine if a spawn frag is likely?

Anyway, I'm not getting into a discussion on this like people like you.

See one the major differences between us (apart from me having done something with games aother than talk shit about them on forums) is you argue with the person before the point.

I don't give a shit about you, to me you;re just another troll on a forum who thinks he knows everythign because he's behind his keyboard and he has the following of a few equally dysfunctional people to buy the perception of being right.

I didn't say I was going to solve the problem, I said I was offer some direction with regards to how it could be solved by addressing certain aspects which would have a big impact on how the spawn code would choose a start position.
Its al ot more noble than you saying it can't be solved because it exceeded your level of ability. So you draw a line under it as its easier for you deal with the fact that you just don't know as much as you think.

Go and read some books on fuzzy logic, then perhaps grasp an understnading on shortest path algorithms such as A* and Dijkstra.

Then, when you have a fucking clue what you're talking about and develop beyond a 15yr old child, I'll welcome your input.

Bye.

You basically said it yourself though, it doesn't prevent the problems it just makes them less likely to occur.

I didn't say I was going to solve the problem, I said I was offer some direction with regards to how it could be solved

... and you have done neither.

then perhaps grasp an understnading on shortest path algorithms such as A* and Dijkstra.

ROFL. Trying to show off while talking about basic stuff STUDENTS learn at UNIVERSITIES. You never provide anything remotely insightful, it must suck to be so fucking stupid and jobless.

Jamerio is right....[wait for it...wait for it...nope, the earth didn't open up and swallow me, must be my lucky day]..at least his first sentence. I've stopped reading the rest of his blabbering after i came across "no experience in gameplay design".

Anyhow, point is, if you acknowledge that there are worse spawn systems than the current one you acknowledge that not all systems are equal as well. And since you cannot know every conceivable possible spawn system (and probably do not claim to) you can't claim that "there is no proper way to do a spawn system that doesn't add as many problems as it solves" and as such it's a non argument.

I'm gonna let "prove me wrong" slide since it was clearly flaim bait for jamerio.

I was specifically talking about all the alternatively "good" systems that we could use. One step forward, and one step back. It's the same as the arguments between 10 or 15 minute duels.

edit: also, jamerio is never right.

what if jamerio decides to lie about what he thinks and say the opposite?

Even if Jamerio lied, or said something at random that was accidentally right, he's still wrong.

I think i know what you're getting at, a variant of the Novikov self consistency principle.

We'll call it the Jamerio self consistency principle, which states that even though there is a theoretical scenario in which Jamerio could inadvertantly say something right, the possibility of such a scenario occuring equals zero.

=D

I like the first idea, very good. You go to a spawn, left click to choose it, right click to move to the next one. Shouldn't be too hard to implement either. However I doubt that id would test something like this, maybe Arqon???

I don't think it will be possible to do the second without building a system in place to measure it, I don't think it will be that easy.

dude.. they dont add new maps to a 10 year old game and do u rly think they add this spawn system??? come back to earth man ))))

they could also have a "pro version" where the different spawns get bound to a key and you can instantly chose where you want to spawn, if you have them memorized. Or the death screen shows little screen of possible spawn with a number, to help with memorizing, etc.

This would probably change gameplay a hole lot, cause it would make fragging when mega or ra is up a risky move.

However, I wonder if this might actually be a good change. People have argued for the advantages of hoony mode, and this might just go in that direction, giving the player who got fragged a chance for a comeback.

On the other hand, it would probably make playing +back more effective.

So maybe have spawns delayed by a certain time (e.g. 5 seconds) to allow the other player to pick up that power-up, first.

Or removes spawns that are near to power-ups that have spawned.

etc.


This stream of consciousness has brought to you by 2-cent-streams: "Get your wall of text for just 2 cents today!"

I am not so sure of a "choose any spawn" scenario, as you said it puts too much power into the hands of the guy who died. I think it should cycle spawns at random, and if the guy doesn't spawn in 10 (or less?) seconds it spawns him anyway. This also keeps a random element that is out of control of both players.

I am sure that if this was in place we would have players taking advantage of it, however at the same time, there would probably be players that choose a bad spawn. In that case, you can't blame bad spawns anymore... you chose it!

How about the player who died get to chose one of three (or two or four, depending on map?) spawns that are furthest away from his opponent at the time of death.

Those would me more or less the spawns he could get with the current system, except that now he can choose a spawn that can't be easily abused.

stop butchering the game

how about you die, you become a ghost and have to run to where you want to respawn

*how about you die.
fix'd

ye i do that a lot in my duels

Your not making the game better by trying to eliminate spawn frags. Spawn fragging is part of Quake.

The problem with the QL spawn system is that it's based on the killers location. It sounds like a good idea to make it that way at first, but it gives your opponent control over where they want you to spawn.

I wish they would go back to a system based on the location of death. I'm surprised not many people are suggesting that. Even if you think it was to easy to get spawn frags in VQ3, what was wrong with the idea of making the spawns based on where someone died? The difficulty in getting a spawn frag can easily be changed just by increasing the number of available spawns someone has.

"The first is just to set the camera where you would spawn if you clicked right now, instead of having it hover around your corpse."

I stopped my reading at this very line: some people (usually top players ofcourse) who just died fighting for an item, sometimes delay their spawn just to see the exact timing of the item the opponent will take.

So your idea is kinda interesting at first but maybe not the whole screen should be used to see the spawning location, maybe a little frame ?

I'll resume my reading now :-)

How about removing that hour long delay you have to wait before you can actually spawn? That way the fragger cannot induce your spawnpoint. Instant respawning ftw.

good idea :)

they can't due to the ad on the scoreboard

I miss CPMA VQ3

que?

lol go away with your cpm ideas.

In UT theory there are two respawn rules. First, you cant respawn in same zone as enemy. Second, you shouldnt respawn on his line of sight (shouldnt, because in many cases it still happens). The second one theoreticaly limits the possibility to instantly hit respawning opponent, however it may also serve to force respawns we want.

I dunno if this has been tried or not, but what about letting a person who is re-spawning have 5 seconds (or however long- but not TOO long) and a free-floating view to travel the map from the point of death, decide where they want to spawn in, and click to choose that spot. If they let the 5 seconds run out, the spot where they are when time runs out is where they will spawn. They could choose to spawn near a weapon, powerup, armor; or for position.

q4 was also based on killers location and that game was abhorrent - who doesn't remember standing in middle platform phrantic.

i probaly start fixing all the rest soon, with dual arena

I don't think anyone plays it, which is what it deserves.

everyone plays it, just no linux or proper rocket jumps http://q43a.org/

no.

wow "operamini" thanks for creating an account now everyone can finally just ignore you