ww3 nao!!

(we can be allies.. until you start losing, keke)

Hell yeah, Axis Powers 2.0

:D

Sooo, you are greek or?

Timezone:
Europe/Vienna

Im KIDDING, everyone knows Q-Tip is american.

Economics is far far more in-depth than you know or understand.

Actually, not really, economics is a lot simpler than all the macro aggregate lies you constantly hear about. And I'd say qtip has a good understanding of the current european situation.

I don't think he does, seeing as he doesn't seem to understand how not helping the Greeks would lead to a much worse situation for the other states in the eurozone.

while helping them shows we do not really care about maastricht criteria and we are helpless against cheaters like the Greek. sure improved the situation.

Helping the greek government sends a strong signal to all european governments that no matter how much debt they amass they will get bailed out by the taxpayers of other governments who are not indebted as much. This is a huge moral hazard issue. Why be responsible then? Just get in debt and let other people pay for you.

Bailing out Greece is not a solution, it's just a temporary fix which will lead to more problems later, more inflation and a bigger recession down the road.

Greece's government expenditures are not sustainable. Artificially sustaining them does not make economic sense, and stealing other people's money for doing so is morally wrong. This is a typical political decision however, made by democratic politicians for whom their next election and their big european bureaucracy are more important than the long term path our decaying civilization is taking.

What you say is essentially what Angela Merkel said for a rather long time in regards to the Greek situation. The fact that she eventually agreed to bailing out Greece (albeit with the help of the IMF, while others like Trichet and Sarkozy prefered a European-only solution) is precisely what COST her votes in the regional election and made her coalition lose its majority in the Upper House. It's the exact _opposite_ of what you would call a political calculation to get votes, since it was the unpopular decision to make.

Regarding the first part of your post, the different austerity plans adopted by Italy, Spain and Portugal are a clear indication that they want to avoid going down Greek's road. They are not behaving like if they thought "it doesn't matter, others will pay for us". So bailing out Greece certainly did not result in others thinking they could be careless (this is again something Merkel was afraid of).

About the impact of the bailout, I disagree with you, I think it was much better to "save" the situation in Greece rather than let them crash and burn and possibly exclude them from the euro. This would likely have lead to other exclusions and a loss of trust in the euro by the markets, resulting in much bigger difficulties for the entire eurozone. I'm not saying everything's fixed with the bailout, since Greece (and other states for that matter) obviously has a long way to go, but I think it's a much better choice than what the results would have been for the eurozone if Greece has been abandoned. I think I'm far from alone on this.

Finally regarding the moral aspect, from where I stand showing solidarity is hardly what I would call a "moral hazard issue". And it's certainly better than letting Greece and its population crash and burn. I also consider that our taxpayers still gain from the eurozone not crashing so... Solidarity at the European level is a good thing, and in a rational choice perspective it is also a good policy since it can give confidence to the markets.

I'am not so sure, but ain't investing (lending) a shit load of money to something that with great risk might fail really hard, can lose even more trust in euro by the markets?

I remember back in the day there was a interview with some normal Greek in which he was asked a question - "What did Greece gave for EU by joining in?" And his answer as funny as it was made me a little worried about current situation.

He said that before Greece entered EU, if EU gave some money to a country, for example to build a highway - it was given and later the highway was build, that it. But the problem with Greece was that the money was given, and the highway was not build. So after the Greece joined in, EU started more checking about what is actually made with a given money. And for him that was the input that Greece gave to EU.

Now, considering that most of the Greeks working for the public zone rater know that they cost more then they actually produce and years by years voted for the same people who would not take from them, we can assume that there is a small chance that instead of spending that loan money on reforming their current situation, the government can keep speeding that money on the things that they are so much used to - the social benefits of working in the public zone.

I don't think Greece failing to pay its debt/the money that was loaned to it is a likely scenario. If they have a hard time doing so they will probably spread out the repayment but I don't think there's any chance of them actually defaulting on the debt.

Wouldn't be somthing new.

"Greece, however, has existed in a “perpetual state of default” since its independence, the economists write, having spent 50.6% of those years in default or rescheduling, easily tops in Europe."

http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2010/04/26/defa...-judgment/

I had someone argue that in the UK we should DEFAULT rather than cut back public spending, suggesting it would be beneficial for us and that the poor wouldn't be adversely affected by this.

If you default nobody is going to lend you money anymore... Look at what happened to Russia after the Bolsheviks defaulted in 1918 :)

Good point about Angela Merkel, she indeed had to surrender to the pressure from the other governments. Germany had to live through hyperinflation and its consequences not that long ago, they'd rather not see that happen again. Other european govs, however, don't seem to give a shit. For them, joining the eurozone is a ticket to some more years of fun expenses left and right.

You mention austerity programs, do you know what they're about? It's like "ok, our budget has an annual deficit of 8% GDP, so let's freeze our expenditures for 3 years", that is exactly the french "austerity" program. And already after such ridiculous action, you have employees from the public sector protesting in the streets.

It seems like everyone is completely high on public expenses, stealing your neighbour's money has become everybody's favorite past time. This is not solidarity. Solidarity is volontary. If you want to send your money to some greekish kleptocracy, go ahead, I will not stop you. But if you point a gun at my head and force me to give you my money to send it to the greek gov, you need to have a seriously leftist fucked up brain to be able to morally justify this obvious theft.

What happens now is the ECB is moneytizing governments' debt, therefore increasing the money supply and diluting everyone's savings, this is the most insideous form of taxation, but economists payed by the central banks will of course tell you this is good for the economy. Evil is always disguised as good.

Giving confidence to the markets? Is that always a good thing? Say I'm a banker, and I have a central bank behind me assuring me that no matter how much risks I take, no matter how much leverage I use, no matter how much money I lose, it will bail me out. Yes that gives me confidence indeed...

Governments will have to face economic reality eventually, and the sooner the better. This whole democratic keynesian paper-money debt-driven socialist experiment has been going on for too long. I'd rather not live through a hyperinflation, or a war, or see my savings taken away from me to pay for a broken retirement con; but considering public debt, public expenditures, demographics, and the widespread of leftist ideology, I don't see any good ending to this mess.

The only reason to pay is because greek owes some banks huge amounts of money. In other words, the tax payer will be paying for the banks not to lose money. Again.

"But there be greater fools. Iceland, after committing financial suicide on their own, now actually wants IN on this sinking european fail-Titanic, for round two. Its almost amusing."

No we don't, one party of the government wants in but e.g. a referendum on it now would be a landslide 'No' ala Norway 1994.

Anyway you're completely clueless on Greece, but that's to be expected from someone who uses Vanity Fair blogs for economic insight. :-)

The longer the EU waits to help Greece the bigger the bill they're eventually going to have to pay. It's already having an impact on European markets and it will get much worse. They're just scared of the precedent it sets for the imminent collapse of Spain, Italy, Portugal... Indeed, the unity and compassion within the EU is a wonderful thing. Germany's reaction in particular has been interesting.

Not that I have much sympathy for Greece voters with their ridiculous riots and vandalism only sinking them deeper into recession, or their treacherous government. Whatever happened to the Greece of great literature, philosophy, athletes, generals, mathematics and political science?

kratos fuckin killed em all

That motherfucker!

and he's gonna start all over again it seems

An Icelander lecturing other people about economics, and complaining about irresponsible greeks. Who is going to take THAT seriously.

Yes, bailing out Greece has some short term benefits, and we can probably afford it - although it costs 120+ Bn when all is said&done. We can probably afford Portugal too. Spain, probably not.

What we can't bail out is Italy. They are one of the biggest sovereign debt issuers, only second to Uncle Sam. This is just way too big. When Italy goes, there will be a lot of trouble, not just for the EU. And beeing vaguely familiar with italian culture, its prbly safe to assume that if Greece hid x Bn of debt, Italy hides x^2 Bn.

Bailing out Greece solves nothing. The other fail-countries are boing to be tested anyways, and we cant save them all. We are wasting money for an already dead project (the Euro), that noone but a few bureaucrats wants anyways.

I thought TBone already pointed out that the economics seem to be a bit too complex for you and everyone else here (and before anyone asks, that of course includes me).

Here are some small facts you need to consider.

noone knows where the sum will end up, your 120 billion are probably just an estimate from a newspaper.
the aid will be given in the form of credits, therefore if Greece is really saved in say three years (and that means it needs few enoug new credits that they can get affordable deals on the financial market) they will start paying back those credits. That means the other EU countries will actually earn money!


Bailing out Greece combined with getting them back on their feet fast can solve a lot of things, as it would reestablish trust in the other countries and enable them the renew their credits on the financial market just like every other country does.

And there are several more things I can think of and probably a ton more, that I can't.

Hey! That goes for you too!

oh :(((((

120 Bn is an estimate from IMF.

As for earning money on the loans, its the same story they told us when we bailed out the banks. It isn't happening, not until today at least. At any rate, taking on all the default risk for a few % in interest doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

And how exactly will bailing out Greece instill trust into Spain and Italy, when they are clearly too big to handle them in the same way than Greece?

Economics appear to be too complex for a lot of people, including all the learned experts. If they are allowed to make crap predictions, so am i.

who are you to judge the experts?


/e

also, as you seems to not realize it. We are already carrying the risk of the default with 45 bn of two banks that are "too big to fail" and probably also debts from Greece to German companies.

An Icelander lecturing other people about economics, and complaining about irresponsible greeks. Who is going to take THAT seriously.

A German lecturing on allowing countries to collapse and that it's time to move on to other territories. I hope people take THAT seriously.

The germans do have some expertise in moving into other peoples territory, do they not?

most of those attempts ended rather badly

they succeeded in moving in for the most part, they just failed at staying there

tbh everything Germany does is pay pay pay for the EU. some kind of scepticism towards this is very acceptable.

why exactly do you think we didn't nuke you in ww2?

You mean 'we' as in 'the soviets', Towarischtsch?

nozdrowie!

nice own

are you hitler?

noobs poland economy > all :)

I volunteer Croatia to help you fight the war against Greece. that'll only be EUR 50 Bn, thanks.

sure, we give it too you with a 4,5% interest, you can forward to Greece for 5,5% but you take all the risks of a Greek default.

i sense a mention of me here

dunno, are you a hdz voter?

lmfao


no.

oh a kerum voter, my bad.

second fail in a row




on this topic only, of course.

oh a dalmatian, that still qualifies.

matter of time when we go solo and give you cunts the finger.

please giev exact date k thx.

how would i know?

i just pity the rest of you guys cause there ain't gonna be no cash for you anymore.

cash? what cash?

the cash which makes our capital grow bigger and bigger

you mean in those three months when you pretend to work?

the fairytale about people simply not working here is cool till you turn 12 and realize what's happening around you.

also the fact that 99% of the money made HERE goes to you-know-where kinda helps creating the eventual unemployment part. that is, if you have half-a-brain to understand the simple logic of things.

what is you-know-where? also, do all croatians hate each other? =)

heh

well, i wouldn't say we all hate each other in general, but the country is so centralized that issues must emerge. among other things.

you-know-where is our capital city which gets 95% of money made within the country to make it look nice pretty and shiny, while the rest of croatia is going nowhere, and our beloved government is, on purpose or just by being retarded, constantly destroying what's left of once pretty solid number of workplaces on the coast, which makes the unemployment rising every day. regardless of the crisis today, it's like that since....well, always.

the biggest strength here is obviously tourism, that's where the money's at, but again, that money is never invested here, where it is actually made. every company has an HQ in Zagreb, every company elsewhere is controlled by, again, our beloved Capital City.

So instead of being eternally grateful for not having huge problems and independency ideas (yet), you can hear things about people here being "lazy", or whatever.

i think that's the basics for you :)))

hey I found 101 dalmatians. they're all on my block doing NOTHING.

your tragically lacking sense of humor aside, don't you live in istria anyway?

I wish, it's about the only civilized place left in this shithole.

hm. i was sure you were the guy who lives in pula. you moved to zagreb?

or i somehow mistaken you for someone else?

you're trippin brah. more work, less briskula

you missed a letter there, and that's a game played by 65-year olds in average.

anyway, i'm currently busy with finishing college so i quit my job, but would strongly suggest you to try anything out of those two. would make you less bitter and give you less time to waste.

yay another idle dalmatian I have to feed.

you should move to some island in the middle of nowhere dude, that way you'll have an excuse for doing nothing

if I ever get the need to become dalmatian I will consider it.

lacking sense

give you cunts the finger

I lol'd

the sooner it collapses the better, too bad fuckers cheat at their own game to stay at the through a tad longer

2015 coming.

MOVE AS SOUTH AS U CAN WITHOUT STANDING ON ICE

can we not just call bill gates a terrorist and that oil guy and sieze there money to sort the economy?

we could always ask them for a loan ?

Sounds like you are mad.

the only thing i would like to know is if we (as in we germans) give the greek ppl the needed money, do we still have to pay at a greek restaurant in germany?

!!!!!!!!

Doppelte Pommes, Gyros m. Metaxasauce für lau für immer.

!!!!!!!!

mein reden :D

metaxasauce is $$$$$


Also very easy to make yourself. Bought a bottle of metaxa just for that and already used wo thirds :D

before even starting to make the sauce?

nope got other stuff for that :D

Made the sauce six times or so, friends demanded it.
Put it over gyros cover with cheese and put it in the oven, it's awesome!!

sounds interesting, what is the recipe

waht you need for 4 people (student type eaters)

1kg pork
4 garlic cloves (less if you have a date that evening ;) )
2 onions
basil
thyme
rosemary
salt+pepper
paprika spice (dunno the english name, the rew powder stuff)
400 gr tomato paste
400 gr heavy sour cream (German: Schmand, Crčme fraîche should to the trick)
100 ml metaxa (doesn't have to be the original brand, which is twice as expensive)
500 gr cheese, gouda or emmentaler you can replace 200 of that with feta.

some for of vegatable, usually 300 gr mushrooms and 4 peppers for me,
rice for 4 people

Cut the pork into pieces and put it into a bowl with the cut up onions, crushed garlic cloves, salt+pepper and the spices you like (if you don't like rasemary leave it out), cover it with quite alot of olive oil and let it soak for at least 6 hours a day is better. Put it in the fridge if it's for a day.

After that put the contents of the bowl into a big pan (a wok is actually great for that if you have one) until the meat is just done. If you have mushrooms add those after 5 mnutes or so. Then add the peppers if you have those.
Right after add portions of the tomato paste, the sour cream and the metaxa. Mix it so you get a orange colour and a sauce with medium thinkness (like sauce hollandaise). If it's too red add sour cream, too white add tomato paste and too dry add metaxa.

Put everything into a gratin dish, cover with cheese and put it in the over for 20-30 minutes at 200°C or so, until the cheesy is molten and you see litle bubbles from the sauce.

In the meantime cook the rice.

Should take about 50 minutes from putting the meat in the pan until you can eat. If you want you can serve dinner serve baguette + aioli during the oven phase (yeah, I know it's Spanish, sue me ;) )

Hope you like it.

Just remebered I had a pic :)

what's with the flowers 'n' shit :(

the host is a teacher

tomato paste, the sour cream and the metaxa

ok gedit =P

What kind of human being does not like rosemary :`(

that looks freaking awesome, thanks

U CANNOT EAT. GO GYM FATTY.

if im fat, you're fat ;(

i dont want to get fat so dont eat it ;((

STUFFED CRUST

i still haven't tried that, i might go find some pizza hut and go berserk. if you gain a few dozen pounds in the next couple of days, mission accomplished!

gna bang a guy aka u gay

ffffuck

im gonna do gravity grrl

suicide!

[EYE]carrot

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/ViewPost.aspx?bpid...0898615941

gs will make a nice scapegoat but ostracizing them wont fix shit. regarding Greece, pointing fingers at others may buy US some time but ultimately, they are the elephant in the room.

politics on esr = LOL

Why are you so suprised EU wants to help greece. maybe take a further look into greeks history, and you will notice that their first king was a german. so it already started bad.

but under current circumstances you will need to think about the german (french) politicians, and ask why they are so eager to help the greek.

since 1990 greece has spent over 70billion euros in arm industry for their so called "conflict" with turkey.
and guess who benefits: german and french arms industry. now the next task is, go find out which parties benefit from the arms industry.

and btw its not the first time greece has gone bankcrupt.


greece is just the tip of the iceberg. and as long people dont realise whats really going on, and keep on trusting populistic news coverage on tv, and newspapers, stuff like this will always happen cuz those retards get voted over and over again.

becks fucked me up with the recipe, i forgot what this was all about and thought you're a jonesy-wannabe

damn.

glad to be of assisstance :D

yes, we profitted from Greece.

But if the French and German leaders are so greedy as you say, what exactly keeps them from taking their profits and leaving Greece to die?
The situation really isn't that easy.

Or to put it differently, knowing who to blame for a problem doesn't make it go away.

ofcourse the situation isnt easy. i was just trying to state some information you wont find in media coverage (newspaper, tv).

greece is a good market where the german and french industrie have been selling arms over the past decades.

and if you let greece die as a market, those sellers will lose a rather good income, and therefore "polticians" will do everything to keep it alive. (greece spends 2.9% of their GDP on military)

furthermore, if you let greece die, people will call out for panic (portugal, spain and italy are also not in good shape when it comes to their economic situation) and make the markets unstable, which could possibly will lead to a dying euro?
besides, the EU has been working over an tremendous time to releave the dollar as the anchor currency, and especially with the arabic-asian continent putting more trust into the euro than in the dollar.

so far, greece has always been in a bad ecomomic situation during the last 200 years, and it will not change, unless sth drastic will happen.
and calling out for the bailout for greece is just pushing out the real bankcruptcy. even after those suggested changes like the pension with 63 and the cut of civil service jobs, greece won't be able to pay back the interest rates of the IMF/EU unless they start on having a working economy.

greece should just get rid of their corrupt politicians, cut lose their military spendings (they are NATO member), and get a fresh new start without ridiculous interest rates by the IMF/EU.

the middle part of your post is exactly my point.

The problem is that a fail of Greece will hurt the Euro, so the EU has to act, regardless of who caused it.

Greece arms market may be a good market, but even if they did buy 70 billion worth of military equipment from Germany and France in the last decade or so, that is not a direct profit. That depends on the profit margin, and I doubt it amounts to the 22 billion we have to invest now, certainly not to the 45 billion our banks lose (or 75% of that) if Greece dafaults.

In any case, I believe a factor that is just as big is that 25% of their employed people work for the government and get paid 40% more than people in the industry for comparable jobs.

Yes, it can't be directly compared, as payments to your own people gets spend inside your country while money for imports (arms and everything else) is "lost". But still to pay those people they had to go in debt first and pay the interest to foreign banks. Also the Greeks will also buy foreign products so some of that money is "lost" as well.

There will be a day when the age of capitalism comes crashing down, and it is one of these days, thank god for that.

Communism and its flaws are nothing compared to the damage capitalism causes all over the world, good riddance

...

yeaaaahhhhhhh.

You may go live in North Korea any time you want, we won't stop you.

kim jong il might

only from freely walking around the country. But that's a small price to pay for living in paradise!

Sounds like the heaven (paradise) they preach about in the bible too !

Leave it to a capitalist to think my comment meant i was defending communism, it did not.

I merely said it was the lesser of 2 evils, not that i wanted it in any way.

I'm actually surprised ure german, u should be american based on your bigotry

hahaha.

you do realize the Germans got a first hand impression on communism vs. capitalism?

I'd argue u got neither, u got lots of experience in fascism yes.

But if u want to associate with your elders who defended that very fascism over communism be my guest i'd say, just dont expect to find much sympathy with me.

That's a lost cause for basing an argument on

Moron, facism isn't what he was talking about, he is talking about East Germany / West Germany. Now stop sounding like a retard.

Tbh mate, youre a south african who had nothing to do with any of it and you are simply reciting what you know from history books

Also you calling another person a moron will never ever bode well for your credibility. Intelligent people do not call others morons I didn't refer to him as such and neither should you to me if you want to gain any sort of credibility.

And yes i do know east vs west germany, and we also both know he was barely around to even see it let alone experience it, so the fascist argumant is pretty much just as valid, or are you really going to try and convince me - as a foreigner nonetheless- that his 5 year old ass really experienced east vs west germany?

I think not

Edit: i thought u were south african for some reaosn, ure apprently uk, same shit basically

My god, the mental gymnastics you are performing... Look, you can argue intelligently if you want, but that is something YOU AREN'T DOING.

You can't expect to make a stupid claim, not back it up, call someone a bigot, completely mistake a very valid fact, still not back it up, and then try to invalidate someone else rather than actually argue with points, facts and reasoning.

And yes I am from South Africa, and trust me I've experienced more politics and tension growing up in my country then you will in your whole life.

Communism in Eastern and Central Europe may have ended by 1990, but the effects were felt and still are being felt long afterward.

age: 29

Are you bad at math or do you believe the wall fell in 1985?

also the results of the division could be seen long after the wall came down, for example in 1993 when I lived in Berlin.
But I guess you could only know that if you had been to Germany somewhere around that and didn't take all you know from history books.
So, I'll excuse you.

Sorry but to really know what it was like in east germany you had to live there while it was still there...and as a youth you wouldn't see any difference besides materialistic goods anyways. I think east germany was great, if it hadn't been for the stasi it would have been my choice to live in I guess.

because let's face it, wealth does not equal happiness, quite on the contrary

never said I know what it was "really like".
But that I probably have better insight than a Belgian who is even younger.

Anyway, I guess you would have been one of the few who went their to live instead opposed to the many people trying to go the other way.

About the "Stasi", yeah that is probably the worst part, but it's interesting that all the "communist" countries that last many years had an organisation like it.

Yes, looking at communism from a theoretical view, I too, would like to live there. But looking at what it seems turn out to be: a state of equals, with the people in charge being a lot more "equal" and those who don't bow getting far less opportunities, with shitty environmental laws, causes production facilities and the government are one and the same, and many more details.
Nah, I'm happy where I am, with all the flaws our system has.

Yes, looking at capitalism from a theoretical view, I too, would like to live there. But looking at what it seems turn out to be: a state of equals, with the people in charge being a lot more "equal" and those who don't bow getting far less opportunities, with shitty environmental laws, causes production facilities and the government are one and the same, and many more details.

capitalism never ever claimed that everyone is equal in what they can achieve, it was always about whoever doe more gets more. But, there have been protection mechanisms put in place like unemployment payments, etc.

Communnist systems did claim they wanted to make everyone equal, and for that reason often to away things from their owners, but as it turns those in charge in the system were the owns who got lots more sutff than the average person.

those thng in capitalism that did the unemployment benefits, they come from communism

yes, and?

I always though that Communism in theory is great. Just that as a real system it has never worked as well for the people as capitalism, and I doubt that it ever will.

Who wouldn't with your fine automobiles like Trabant!

omg those cars are so funny :D

Russia made them do it!


But yeah, being able to tip over a car with three 13 year-olds was kinda funny :P

How comes you lived like everywhere?

haven't.

lived in west Germany, for most of the time. In Berlin for 1,5 years. when my dad worked on a porject there.
Half a year in America and two months internship in Romania.
My dad worked in Tunisia for 7 years, so I have been there a couple of times, but never really lived there.

But I did travel to quite a few places both with parents and later with friends.

yeah, if only there were a country that was divided with one having a communist and one a capitalist system so one could compare the two....

And even better if the comparison was recent enough so it happened during my lifetime.
Well, I guess your mention that we have more to do with facism, really shows your open-mindedness...

How about you go sell some blood diamonds, Belgian.



Meanwhile, you might want to think about which systems in the world actually allow their citizens to complain openly and continously about their leadership.

Same as to tbone above, dont you go cry tio me about knowing communism vs capitalism , u were barely out of the cradle when the wall fell for crying out loud yet you think living in germany makes u a goddamn expert on the subject. Its laughable

Also the fact that you feel inclined to personally insult me only enforces that truth.

So i'll retort at the same level, gtfo

According to the age in your profile I'm older than you and have several friends born and spending at least ten years in the the GDR some other and some more than that.

And here you are telling me that you know better.

doesn't that sound a little stupid to you?


/edit: and the "Belgian" remark comes from your facism insults, that are nothing more than assuming the worst based on my nationality. I just thought I'd respond in the very same way.
Seems you don't like such remarks when you are on the receiving side...

I'm sure you actively experienced all the repercussions of the existance of the wall pre 1989 at the ripe age of 9-10.

including the socio-economic plusses and drawsbacks etc etc

Ehr no oh wait u were 9 years old and playing with your lego, just like any normal 9 year old

So why u may have valid points in some regards u sure as fuck dont know a thing more about the inherit merits of capitalism versus communism based on being a 9 year old german at the time.

Stop kidding and deluding yourself

Edit: "friends" do not really matter in any aspect of this, i can have plenty of friends telling me i will burn in hell for not going to chruch every week, and i do actually, doesnt make it any more realistic

Yeah, but have your friends actually been in hell?

'cause some of my family and friends have actually lived in the GDR and i trust their judgement.

lol, your points really are non-existent.


funny thing is: If you had visited the GDR in 1989 or East Berlin in the folowing years, we would not be having
this discussion. You would agree that there are impressions that kids of that age (and especially teenagers can remember).
Same thing if you had trustworthy friend who lived in Eastern German, went to school there, possibly even university and have encoutered the restrictions imposed by the system. Then we also would not have have this discussion.

But since you don't know or remember anything about the matter and have some weird friends you simply assume noone else could remember either, despite being much closer to it.

Here's a challenge to you: Go to a 18-year-old Belgian and ask how much he remembers about 9/11, that is not from history books.
Then go ask an 18-year-old from New York.
As a bonus: Ask someone from the states surrounding New York that has friends who lived in the city.

Have you looked much into the effects of the proletariat revolution in Russia on the rest of the Europe since their inception? Looking at what you're comparing, you really have no perspective on what communism is, what was going on in GDR, what was going on in Germany economy wise BEFORE the war economy wise, why, and what the people though of the results.

"yeah, if only there were a country that was divided with one having a communist and one a capitalist system so one could compare the two...."

Yes, If only. Except you cant compare two halfs of a country, let alone those used primarily as a geopolitical battle field.

you are right, one can't compare them that easily.

The capitalist countries actually helped rebuild, while communist Russia took production facilities away. Yay, communism.

you're brainwashed and have no historical knowledge, capitalist countries did the same and much worse, and that was always their intent. i.e. economical exploitation, tenant of capitalism. S.U. had absolutely diffrent intents, and rebuld, but also bult infrastructure in diffrent way.

or you are brainwashed... ;)

Have you read Marx & Engels?

no only in short. However, I already agreed that it is a great system in theory.

And how could Marx and Engels have possibly evaluated the existing systems hat were supposed to be based on their ideas?

hahaha. nice job owning yourself there.

"... elders who defended facism."

oh lol.

From who I've met pretty much everyone who experienced communism first hand thought it was shit. (Like REALLY shit.)

Meanwhile capitalism is FUCKIING AWESOME!!11 And I have shit (that I have bought) to back it up!

Of course I do support a bit of regulation here and there, but at the end of the day you need a bit of competition and evolution eh?

yeh.

capitalism is far from perfect, but so far it worked best on a large scale and in reality.

Like the mumbai slums? There is much more capitalism there then any where in Europe.

They could do it like Stalin and kill 6 millions.

You might also try to visit China or North Korea to see how people live there.

6? more like 20.

tbh I don't know how big the Mumbai slum is exactly ;)

Or they could do it like England and kill 40 million. I'll move to the first communist country, gladly. Neither of those are. North Korea, also, even if it was "raod to communism", is getting sqeezed from all sides while having almost no resourced. No fucking wonder it would be starving.

difference is that however horrible it was what England did thy not kill their own people and claimed it was for their own good.

on the other hand such a move seems to be quite frequent for wannabe communist systems. China doing exactly the same. Honestly, it is beyond me how anyone can defend a system taht knowingly sacrifices millions of their own people. And I will bet that (next to) none of the high government officials lost anyone of their family to famine.

I guess it's ok to slaughter innocent people for their own good, who are under your rule if they aren't white Europeans...

no, I explicitly wrote horrible!

But implying a comparison is not allowed because both are truly horrible events does not lead anywhere.

wars, massacres and genocides of people other than your own have been done by countless countries with all types of systems. Even when you rule over a group, as soon as they are killed it becomes very obvious that they are no regarded the same as your own people.
Sacrificing millions of their own people and saying it's all for the good of the country has not been done so often.

Russia was hardly one group of people really though.

yes, neither are the british. But I think you know what I mean.

I don't think it's right to make a distinction between the two when they both acted with the same thought process of "It's good for you that we do this".

I believe there is a fundamental difference.

One side is doing evil against another group of people, with the intention to gain a profit for your own people. The other is doing evil against your own people with the intention to gain a profit for them.

There's not really any evidence to suggest the British wouldn't have done the same to "true" Brits though, they were quite happy to fight people in the actual colonies too if it would gain them profit (USA) and there were British descendants amongst the Boers too.

It's just the nature of the empire meant it was 99% problems from foreigners.

the point is, they didn't do it in their home land, not on that scale anyway. Whether they might have done it is pure speculation.
And i think it is difficult to find an example where it happened, in other countries, other than old monarchies and tyrannies, maybe.

On the other hand finding examples in countries that wanted communism is easy.
China, Russia, Cambodia.

I guess it all depends on how far you go back, the Scots were hardly treated well for a long time, the Irish too (though I guess you'd count them as separate).

On the other hand finding examples in countries that wanted communismhad authoritarian regimes backed by military power is easy.

FTFY (African nations, Iraq etc)

Both examples, African countries and Iraq alike were formed by European forces with different tribes in them. And if you look at the conflict you will almost always find that it is one group / tribe / religious type going at another one. For whatever twisted reason they could find.

And the communists mostly targeted the former bourgeoisie or those who opposed their political beliefs.

They didn't go around slaughtering committed communists (caveat: who supported the leader) now did they.

Yes, those were the victims of murders, but very many people died simply because of famine because some people in the government decided they knew what would be best for everybody.
And I actually believe, that many officials really believed they were doing a good thing for the people!

I think very few things can be reduced to someone doing something they believed was bad/wrong.

true. But if you are attacking another group of people I think of the idea is that you are doing something good for your own people while the other will suffer.

If you "use violence" (As our lovely anarchic/libertarian extremist friends would call it) upon your own people you are thinking some will suffer but it's for the greater good.

Same idea just applied slightly different, I don't see a clear distinction between the two and I would expect given the "necessity" that those who start on "others" would be fine with doing the same to "oneself".

I feel we have been going in circles long enough,
All I can say, once more, is that history speaks for itself.

"other than old monarchies and tyrannies, maybe."

LMAO

when you are done laughing, I would appreciate examples of a capitalist countries where a sizeable part of their main population died through famine, and officials had the audacity to claim it was all for the better.

Please find at least three, to make up in the large number difference between capitalist and wannabe communist countries.

1. If your so historically ignorant, I'm not going to start your education now.
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishme...ed_Kingdom
etc
3. Nobody had "audacity", they were correct. Sizable population died every 5-10 years in Russia BEFORE this reform, for a CENTURY. Collectivization vastly improved yields, efficiency, infrastructure, enabled the industrialization.

Great list, but I didn't ask for a list of famines: I am completely aware that many of those happened and often enough were caused by a countrry's leaders.
I specifically asked for at least famines, where a capitalist system made a reform that caused millions to die and then was sold as a giant leap forwards.

Insulting me doesn't change that you have provided a single one.


Also, if you will look at your own list, many many more Chinese died of the transition than of the famines 50 years before that.
You also have Northern Korea that still has famines long after changing their system.
You also have East Germans having to stand in line for hours to get food, or being send sugar and coffee by their relatives in the west.


Also, it's great that the changes actually did make things better, but you can't simply take a leap from there and proclaim it was the only possible solution.
For example, the Irish didn't have famines in the 19th century, despite never wanting to become communist and not sacrificing millions. In fact, not a single country in Western has had a famine, except during times of war.

So, the only conclusion that can be reached is, that communism can be a progress from certain systems, but claiming it is the only or the best is a very big leap.

By eri
Wow, so you proclaim capitalism as being good because u have an ipod or a random gadget ? Just shocking

Good luck enjoying your i-wanker-pod in a world that isnt habitable any more in 25 years from now

lol

in a world that isnt habitable any more in 25 years from now

Do you know which country still has to clean vast landscapes from wastes, because the communist didn't have nearly as strict environmental laws as the capitalist counterpart had?


Also, remind me, which country had the worst nuclear accident in history?
And which other country loses workers in their mine shafts all the time.

Yeah, we have our fair share of disasters, too,like the current oil spill. So there is a lot to improve.
But seriously the safety measurements that are now imposed on oil businesses in Eastern European countries by the EU are much more strict and more seriously enforced than what they used to be.

I know that because my company got several projects in Romania that included modernising their safety systems and also stop the excessive flaring of natural gas.

again in no way did i state in that reply that communism does any better in that regard. No government form does a good job ecology wise.

But to say "Meanwhile capitalism is FUCKIING AWESOME!!11 ... " because you can buy shit?

I sincerely hope he was being sarcastic. If not hes exactly the type of person who's ruining this world (and not just environmentally)

and I am saying capitalism does a much better job at saving the environment than communism, even though there is still lots of room for improvement.


And I doubt he was being sarcastic, more like exxagerating.

The freedom to buy what you want, instead of being allowed to buy what some government officials think you might need is a freedom that capitalism offers. But I guess it's one of the things that people only miss when they can't have it anymore.
Especially those who love to rant about consumerism and how people are such sell-outs while carrying their brand-new laptop and talking on their iPhone.

I see what you're getting at, but "unfortunately" i don"t have an iphone nor a laptop.

In fact the only luxury i really have is this machine i use to argue with you.

And i do not miss it,for me happiness is eating decent food every day, sleeping in a warm environment and having my girlfriend support me and be with me.

I pity those who rely on consumer products to make them feel like they are content. And i do mean content, because even they will eventually realise that having all the goods in the world does not make them happy

I never buy stuff just to have it, but always with a certain aim.

Like for example I just bought a pair of used Skis for next season, so I can go skying with friends. And carving over snow in giant turns really makes me content. It gives me great meories as well.
Is that consumerism?
Or isn't that just my way to enjoy life?

Is it a bad thing that I am a very curious person, who feels the need to experience things? That I am just not the type who only wants to stay at home, eat food and feel supported?

Unfortunately i don"t believe most capitalists think the same way. They do buy stuff just to have it and be cool , even if they have no use for it whatsoever.

My dystopia would be a world in which everything was available but in a responsible matter. Which is simply not the case nowadays, people buy in order to own not because they really want it.

Which is both an insult to the planet as well as the people who have to make do which much less.

It's simply a waste, i guess i'm just too socially conscious

yes, lots of stuff is a waste.


But I have given up hope that that will ever change.

Yeah I only wonder how much better off, say, China would be, if no-one bought what you call "waste".

Let me exchange some words in order for your post to make sense.

Dystopia : utopia
Socially conscious : retarded

No.

A "free" market society like i described would still require a governing body of some form in order to regulate the sensible availability aspect.

Think for example the current rules regarding alcohol in Sweden.

Hence is it very much a dystopia , at least for most people.

Oh and the vast majority of Chinese people still live in poverty even today, regardless of their huge export market. So a crappy example at the very best. Why do you think Chinese people farm gold in WoW as a source of income? Oviously because the well paid jobs are theirs for the taking now that their economy is "booming" ...

Don't bother arguing when you are clearly not up to it.

I don't even know what I'm debating against, because all you're doing is cowardish stabs without giving alternatives of your own. It is amusing how you are criticizing capitalism in your first post, amusingly from a problem that is caused by public spending, and change your view completely in the next.

Gold farming might not be the most glorious job in the world, but I don't understand how on earth are those people off if you take away that option? For those people it IS a much better deal than kneedeep in shit on real farms in much worse poverty.

There is a huge difference between no holds barred capitalism and a controlled form of spending. As i also said in my previous post.

You've not really said anything at all.

Your "happiness" is nothing compared with being content.

That's your point of view ;-) Being happy is different for everyone

I don't think you understand what being content is.

Perhaps the exact definition is slightly different in English, i assumed the word is used in the same way as it is in my native language.

But judging from an internet dictionary it basically means " satisfied with "'. Which is relatively close to what i wanted to say, perhaps there is a more suitable word out there though..

Anyway using linguistics against people who do not speak English as their native language is a bit meh. I'll be happy to argue in Dutch or even French if you want, we'll see who can act like a language teacher then ;-)

As far as I know, there is no "lost in translation" stuff regarding the adjective "content", so if it makes you feel better:

I don't think you understand what being [Insert "content" in whichever language pleases you most] is.

I'm fully aware what you meant, the problem is you seem to believe it is a negative. This is why you don't understand it.

You profess that you are happy with your life, but you seem far from being so. In fact you seem rather unhappy with life in general, you just have aspects that you are happy with (food, girlfriend etc.).

woe betide those who buy things and feel content

Yeah, I must agree with this statement, fuck those pricks who feel content through purchasing goods, how dare they, while wise heads like us shun that sort of behaviour and live happy lives eating decent food and having girlfriends.

Keep telling yourself you're happy, maybe it will come true.

So you think you can dissect my life and tell me i'm not really happy based on some comments on a website?

You have a loooong way to go in life mate.

Anyway i feel no need to even discuss my position since you seem to believe you are some kind of pseudo Freud guy who is going to tell me if i'm happy or not, just lmao.

I don't need to be Freud to work that out, unless you are suggesting that because these are comments on an internet forum that they are no longer your true opinions.

If that is the case, then please, just say so and we can all leave the discussion in the knowledge that you were just typing garbage because it was the internet.

While I'm sure you are happy with many aspects of your life, you are evidently unhappy with the many things (Capitalism, Materialism etc.), thus you aren't "happy".

I'm sure you'll just come up with another reason to run away from your failed arguments like you did with the others though.

Mr superiority :-)

Just because u fail to understand any of my concerns doesn't make them any less pertinent.

Also i am very happy thanks, no person is ever truly happy with everything in the world, you will figure that out eventually

What do you mean "you will figure that out eventually"? I think it's quite clear from my comments that I don't think anyone can be truly happy.

You were talking about "happiness for me is..." then listed off a load of things that you were happy with so you could narrow the definition down and call yourself happy.

What "concerns" have I failed to understand exactly?
You've said precisely nothing except "CAPITALISM IS BAD" and "PEOPLE BUY CONTENTMENT ZOMG".

Yeah its quite clear in your own mind. However the very thing u say right now could just as well be interpreted as backpedaling.

In what way could it be interpreted as backpedaling?

I kinda explained how it was obvious from your posts how you weren't really "happy" since there were things you obviously aren't happy about in my third post.

So basically all along I've been pretty consistent with my posts while you whined about Language and psuedo-Freud (now backpedaling) posts or other gibberish to avoid discussion.

If anyone reads these comments and thinks I'm backpedaling they are obviously too moronic to have a competent discussion with on any topic.

Always the easy way out obviously.

"if anyone reads these comments and they think i'm wrong they are too stupid to argue with"

Solid =)

That doesn't follow as the two things are different.

If someone disagrees with me, they'll disagree throughout the whole chain of replies since I've been pretty consistent (not backpedaling).

Ure very good at ignoring your own faults and shifting the problem onto others i'll give you that.

You really seem to enjoy doing it as well, does it provide you a sense of purpose in life ?

Just asking since i could tell u ad infinitum how misguided you are when it comes to certain things but you will never ever accept it anyway.

Stop being self-righteous and pseudo-enlightened for a second.

If you are so confident and capable of showing how wrong and misguided I am, why don't you make one post, showing how I have backpedaled?

My guess is you're afraid of being wrong, so instead you deflect that possibility by assuming that even if you spent infinity trying to show me the light I'd just ignore it.

Amusing how you think i'm self righteous yet you are the one who started condemning other points of view.

Again let me reiterate , you may well sound smart but you really just talk out of your ass mostly, grasping at straws in order to convey your flawed point.

You still havent grasped that being happy has exactly 0 to do with material belongings Like a true capitalist. You keep arguing about things that arent even relevant in my point of view.

I'm a capitalist now? Wow, I don't recall ever calling myself a capitalist or agreeing with the principles of capitalism and if I did, I certainly haven't done so here.

But hey, who cares, when you can make up your own definitions of words I guess you can make up other peoples opinions too!

for me happiness is eating decent food every day, sleeping in a warm environment and having my girlfriend support me and be with me.

I pity those who rely on consumer products to make them feel like they are content. And i do mean content, because even they will eventually realise that having all the goods in the world does not make them happy

Yeah, I'm the one who started condemning other points of view. Sadly, I didn't "condemn" any point of view, I explained how you didn't understand the terms.

I'm not the one acting morally superior or acting as if I know the superior way to live ones life and that is why you are self-righteous and pseudo-enlightened.

I guess when you make up your own definitions of words and concepts it's easy to not realise how you misunderstand things though.

You keep arguing about things that arent even relevant in my point of view.

Your point of view being that material possessions do not bring happiness?

Because they sure seem to bring you happiness.

Lets see shall we?
- Decent food brings you happiness
- Warm shelter brings you happiness
- Girlfriend brings you happiness

These aren't "material goods"? Oh no, wait, these ones are allowed because these make you happy and it's just the i-wanker-pods that don't make people happy.

What if buying an iPod did make them happy?

The problem with your point of view, is that you see contentment as a negative, so you don't pursue it, and yet are extremely anti-consumerist and environmentally protectionist.

You're like a Buddhist who goes around telling people the true path to enlightenment who then goes and has a banquet.

Or is your point of view merely that I was backpedaling? Go on, show me.

you may well sound smart but you really just talk out of your ass mostly, grasping at straws in order to convey your flawed point.

Classic arguing technique right here, deflect everything from yourself by claiming that the other simply "sounds smart".

If it's just me talking out of my ass, albeit making it sound smart, and grasping at straws it should be relatively simple for you to counter every single "flawed" point I make, yet you don't.

I must admit it's highly amusing you consider a girlfriend to be a materialistic property, perhaps you buy your lady friends affection but i like most people certainly do not.

As for the rest of your response, while certain parts of your argument do make sense i wont pursue it since we will never agree. It's just argumentation ad infinitum.

But huge props for calling a girlfriend a materialistic item, that's just golden right there

For something to be materialistic it must be purchased now?

But anyway, I didn't specifically refer to a girlfriend as not being a material good, I was just listing what you had said brings you happiness.

Perhaps I should have phrased "These aren't material goods?" as "Are none of these material goods?" but the point remained the same.

what do you mean by this?

.. and surely happiness is more active than contentment which is relatively negative in relation to it?

I can't be bothered to explain my view to be honest as I know where it'll go :DDDDDDDDDDDDDD

xPPPPPPPPPPPP

<3

It's not a particularly interesting point of view or much developed either :)

but mine is!!! heh, heh, heh!

actually, i've been thinking - dwelling on things you've thought before letting them all out might make them better anyway, oh shi-

so ur active again

im just pretending (shh!)

"and I am saying capitalism does a much better job at saving the environment than communism, even though there is still lots of room for improvement."

This is fucking funny as hell, capitalism by NATURE totally and absolutely SHITS on the environment. It is an INTERVENTION into the natural capitalistic processes, definition of socialism, that attempts to save the environment. Most of the time just ends up moving the damage out of the eyesight.

Oh really?

People in capitalism have the option to buy only products of companies that try to protect the environment. the rise of natural food stores is a good example.

Another example is, that gas and oil companies in they Western world keep pigging their pipelines to find corrosion before a line leaks, because they fear the punishment. In Russia they only fixed it after a spill.

Finally, when the wall came down, we got a great first hand look at how well East Germany did with the environment. There are still people working on cleaning up the mess, after 20 years.

they don't have communism

true, there is no real Communist system and there never has been.

All those systems, that claimed to be so good, ever did was taking away freedom from their people.

thats what any system does
you're not an anarchist, are you?

no I am certainly not an anarchist (at least not for the last 12 years or so :P)

And yeah, all systems take freedom away, but it seems communist system have taken more than the capitalist counterparts.

Anyway, we have had this discussion a few times before, and I think at the very least we can agree that neither of us will convince the other one.

Economically, yes it takes away the freedom for free enterprise. Its a directed, diffrent economy. That's it. Most other things are a quality of the particular country. And you have to compare countries to themselves or at least at the same time. You can't compare freedoms in SU of 1930 to US of 1985. Pre-1917 Russia was a nation of freedomless exploited workers and their masters. As a result, USSR had more freedoms THEN, than any other capitalist country, with children slaving away at factories, women non-citizens, pretend-non-slaves, etc. The reason it was a dictatorship, and a result of which you get this view that there is oppression, is because only with that can you erase classes, *force* education of the poor, *force* industrialization in the face of the geopolitical situation of Europe.

but I can compare the freedom of East and West Germany in 1985 and the freedom of North and South Korea today.

I am not saying it has to be this way, but that is what can be seen. And I doubt that restricting people from leaving their own country or standing in long lines to buy food is what Marx had in mind ...


forcing intellectuals who disagree is also a geat move to force education. Makes me wonder what had happened if the German government had thought of that when two Germans were writing a certain book.

Agreed on the directed economy. Communists take from the rich, pay their buddies and distribute the rest to everyone. Keynesians take from everyone, pay their buddies and waste the rest. Politicians need to stop throwing our money at problems that only exist in their heads, try to make the best laws they can and let markets do their thing.

Keynesians take from everyone, pay their buddies and waste the rest.

O.o

That is what politicians do who like to call themselves Keynesian. They could do the very same and call themselves Austrian economists. It certainly isn't what Keynes proposed.

Austrian economics :/

just curious.. have you ever lived in communism? or at least post-communism?

I wish they had their own currency in Greece :l

so do they

I am Greek and I have to say that u r very naive, which is totally expected

I think our govt is very naive to try the futile attempt to bail out this trainwreck that is Greece. They didn't have the political will and discipline to reduce debt during the boom-years, how will they possibly have the political will and discipline to do so in a recession, which is 100x more difficult?

I think the option of reintegrating Greece as a province in the Ottoman Empire should be seriously revisited. This would be a win-win situation.

lol u r naive thinking that everything is that straight forward. Nothing happens without a reason. You think that ppl in Greece want money from EU? Nobody wants that shit! Only our corrupted politicians, who are doing what they are told to do from others and not us.

Everything that happens in this planet has one reason only. To get the money from the poor and give them to the rich. If you think that anybody is doing Greece a favor, u r dump.

Also there are other countries with bigger economic problems in EU than Greece. Greece was just an easy start to show the way. The medias' work is to handle ppl and you are handled very well. They try to handle us as well, to convince us that we need that money and that we have to suffer whatever comes with them; that we (the ppl) have to pay for the money that corrupted politicians putted in their pockets etc. And they are actually doing a pretty good job.

but lots of greeks working for the government seem to expect being paid by them.
And lots of retirees seem to expect their payments from the government, as well.


Please explain to me how that is supposed to work if the government does not have any money?

Greece doesn't need no stinking money or politicians, or pensions, or food, or services of any kind, just riots and stray dogs.

Yes, the problem is with the ppl that "work" for the government. They are too many and most of them are doing nothing. The private sector in Greece has to work twice as much in order to cover this huge productivity gap and in a lot of companies they are doing that. In many jobs they work from 8:00 to 8:00 and sometimes even the weekends, withought being paid for the extra hours.

If it was up to me, I would minimize the government jobs to the absolute minimum and make them not permanent. If you don't work, you have to be fired, like it is in the private sector.

I agree with that!

But even for that transition phase you will need some amount of money, to pay running bills.

the problem brah, is that you're just a bunch of Balkan imbeciles just like every other country in the region. you hate work, you steal like there's no tomorrow and vote for the same cunts that've been robbing you for the past XX years. you got no industry, no production, you just expect to rent rooms and live off of it indefinitely. (hi dalmatia)

lol hating aschole. Our economy is much better than other countries in EU. And the money that you actually give us, is not help, is business dumb fuck. It is a LOAN and you will take back more money that u give. How hard is to understand this? You take advantage of the situation that ur media creates in order to MAKE MONEY. Greeks are not lazy. Many work all day and in the weekends and there ppl that are doing 2 jobs. Why u hate so much and act like a nazi? You hide it like a cunt, but with every single chance you take the nazi hate out.

From when, lenting someone money with interest is called a good act?

Its a good act when you are that terrible that noone else will lend you money or only at 3x the interest-rate. And its not like Greece wont default on us or restructure in a year or 3 anyways.

oh if you're so good and hard working why are you in the shit now? could it be because 90% of you are lazy cunts who want to suck the government tit forever if possible? if you fired 70% of your buerocrats and started doing some real work, maybe people wouldn't be so skeptical. but nooo... let's just throw up a fuss and protest like little prima donas, yea.... that'll help.

we are not that good, but not that bad either. I just don't appreciate the hating.

no brah, you're the worst. at least the other Balkan shitholes like Romania and Bulgaria aren't asking for 300 bn, are they?

But they don't have riot dogs either...

In Bulgaria they have a cool saying:

Blame the Greeks.

I must admit riot dogs are pretty cool.

touche.. same shit here :/
but we don't have the Euro as currency so we're fucked on our own

at least you guys got oil and gas!

too bad it leaks in the pockets of companies and corrupt politicians
also we don't have the top tier tourism industry Greece has to cling onto..

we're the failmost country in the EU (possibly on equal foot with Bulgaria).. we deserve it.

they should make a contract for all Balkan countries entering the EU to renounce all their territory and governing in favor of Sweden.
I'd be the first to sign it, not sure about the Swedes tho.

haha.. funny how we share the same ideas
we have this fantasy of germany annexing us and putting order into things

Jim Rogers on frost over the world aljazeera May 14, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a1gnsh46yk&am...r_embedded


Being in the financial world ,i know that there very few analysts who know the truth/or are willing to tell it

markets are heavily manipulated,the biggest drop in history in a single day that happened a few weeks ago,was a market maker slip up,they didn't buy into it ,so the market crashed like it would have/should have,..also bail outs working is a myth perpetuated by the corporate media and the banking system

for fucks sake. learn to use a comma.
right now it's the 70% retardation and 30% incorrect use of the comma that keeps me from reading your stupid shit.

His, use of, the, comma, is perfect because in, the end nobody, can read,to make it sense of comma, usage.

You don't work in the financial world. You trade currencies from home.

That like a guy buying gas and resellin it in his front yard, saying he knows everything about oil production.
You said it yourself, the big banks almost always get it right. Still you insist of having the insight.
You think way too much of yourself to have a respectable opinion.

retarded comparison...check
putting the other guy down...check
blind faith in the system...check

You think way too much of yourself to have a respectable opinion.

so, you are calling my comparison retarded just based on your opinion or were you going to post some points to back it up.

Cause if you don't:

Judging something someone else solely based on your opinion...check
putting anothre guy down by caling ihs words retarded...check
assuming blind faith in the system, again only based on your opinion...check


You think way too much of yourself to have a respectable opinion.

you know, i would keep going but you are just trolling now so its pointless, remember me when germany leaves the eurozone. now i gotta go, i got a bathtub full of gasoline in my front yard that needs reselling.

aha, so I actually bother to make an analogy to show my point.

you on the other hand just go to call it retarded without doing anything to back my point, and i am the one trolling. Nice discussion style you got there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

aw gosh,becks going of on a tangent again

first of all,at least try to be a bit open minded,.. just try

second,banks do loose money,they are not always right,but unlike banks,i wount get bailed out if i fuck up

their education has nothing to do with insider trading,market fixing etc. nor is it valuable to traders in general ,sure one has to understand the basics but thats about it

obviously the financial world baffles you,funny how strong your opinion is about something you understand so little

becks becks :)

oh and by the way, what is this "system" you guys keep talking about, are there some exact definition floating around, or is it still just a term for the cool kids?

banking system in this case

aha. Interesting conclusion.

How did come to make that up?

I would love to hear you speak english irl.

english ist ze autopilot fur kool!

Traders know more about the economy then most economists do,why? because if we listened to the economists we would loose money almost every time

Ask a trader friend,how the economy works,you know way to little on the subject to form an objective opinion (such a surprise with you)

you said yourself that the bankers almost always get the trades right. Guess what their education is...

Judging by by the vast number of banks that had to merge, be bailed out, nationalized or even closed down, that asessment might be questionable, at the very least.

Not that economists/academia fairs any better. The dudes that do GDP-forecasts for the government (so that they can plan the budget) are notoriously wrong everytime. As they say, predictions are really hard to do, especially as far as the future is concernd.

just like mammon, you probably have not read r1ddler's own statement that I am referring to. This is about day trading of currencies.

your funny,grasping on irrelevant statements ,like a man holding on to a life raft for dear life (the raft representing your beliefs)

just let it go,..and open your mind,because contrary to your belief ,you don't have everything solved (nor do i)

I certainly don't have everything solved, but I do know that you claiming you have an open mind is ridiculous. You are mixing it up with being gullible. As proven by some many thinks you wrote.

the same goes for you buddy

No. You didn't prove anything with you laughable links and youtube videos.

You fail at everything. That goes for as long as you don't show us your backyard perpetuum mobile.

Just goes to show how closed minded and naive you are

You failed horribly at processing the information objectively

I proved almost everything,if your willing to see it,but your narrow minded views ,prohibit you from thinking for yourself

have confidence in yourself

I proved almost everything,if your willing to see it,

that pretty much sums you up.

And you certainly don't think for yourself, as you have proven with various things you posted, the part about evolution being a prime example, you seem to believe all the stuff you find online, without thinking about it.

Everyone else who looked at the text, thought about it critically and identified reasons why it can not be true. THAT is what is called being open-minded and thinking for yourself:

Reading a text, thinking about it and trying to identify reliable reasons why it can or can not be true. ("Trying" of course because most people are not experts and realize that, so they know the accuracy of their criticism will always be limited)

Finding a link online and posting it without trying to validate it, is the exact oppposite: being gullible.
You also claim to be able to disprove all of us, and experts of science who wrote the books and papers, just based on your opinion of yourself. Despite knowing you are not an expert yourself. That is a very bad appraoch if you ever intend to learn something for real.

You obviously don't want to learn for real, you just want to believe.

You must be joking,you can't possible be this hypocritical and clueless

That part with the evo being the only example.

Everyone else who looked at the text, thought about it critically and identified reasons why it can not be true. THAT is what is called being open-minded and thinking for yourself:
Everyone elso who posted (not looked,don't get cocky) on that evo thread did a good job,expect for you who just trolled and insulted as usual.

Reading a text, thinking about it and trying to identify reliable reasons why it can or can not be true. ("Trying" of course because most people are not experts and realize that, so they know the accuracy of their criticism will always be limited)


You still don't get it ,do you? You did not do any of this,you put your head in the ground and scream out your ingrained ideas,without even thinking,not one objective opinion

You most, of all,believe in your Micky Mouse corporate approved experts with complete blind faith. Your like a fanatic ,how do you not see this?

-i only fucked up in regards to Evo,as i have never been interested in biology and said it was flawed based on archaeological findings ,but as this info is not available on reputable web sites,i didn't have to courage to go deeper.



You obviously don't want to learn for real, you just want to believe.

Thats exactly what youve been doing from childhood on,complete blind faith ,without a single individual thought (at least as far as the thread goes)

wake the fuck up

You also claim to be able to disprove all of us, and experts of science who wrote the books and papers, just based on your opinion of yourself. Despite knowing you are not an expert yourself. That is a very bad appraoch if you ever intend to learn something for real.

I don't claim that,i am just presenting the other extreme of your beliefs(and other folks here)
I read scientific books and listen to experts,but not just the ones you know off,BUT ALL OF THEM.Its called forming an objective opinion.

Thats exactly what youve been doing from childhood on,complete blind faith ,without a single individual thought (at least as far as the thread goes)

rofl. From at least 5th grade on, I have always questioned what my teachers told me, has led to trouble from time to time. My parents can tell you about it.

And I am not the one here posting random shit, without thinking about it and latter admitting it was wrong.
That would be you, who are obviously completely incapable of forming an educated and reliable opinion, yourself.
Therefore you rely on whatever link you stumble upon on the internet.

With embarrassing results.

im not going to argue with you anymore,the fact that you think you question everything,i mean,im speechless,no words can make justice to the hypocrisy of that comment

Remember,you will always believe what you believe in,unless you start to questioning and if you think that you are already doing so,try much much harder.

Good luck to you

Your opinion on thinking and questioning objectively means less than nothing.

You repeatedly posted things that you had to take back as soon as someone pointed out the mistakes. You are only capable of doubting, not questioning.

I know it doesn't ,because you don't understand what thinking and questioning objectively actually means.

I posted and edited a comment once and admitted to my fault.

You are only capable of repeating,not independently thinking

rofl. And once again you manage nothing but insults based on nothing but your opinion.

When I accused you of something in my last post, I gave a reason, where I referred to something that can be verified.

You on the other hand, accuse me of your same thing but instead of giving a verifiable statement, you simply use your opinion as a foundation.
If you keep doing that, you will stay a moron forever.

bye.

lol,the amount of delusion and hypocrisy in your comments makes you look very naive and childish

think about what your saying before you say it becks

not really, I ask questions to everything I see and don't understand.

So apparently they get another EUR 120bn, because they wasted our first 120bn already. Can someone plz invade this failhole.

this is fun thread to read 12 months later :)

Shouldve given them 1k and told to buy rice and gtfo

I'm just glad the UK isn't paying these idiots again :)