Henning Mankell was on that ship. I was like o_0.

and yeah, fuck them.

You actually know who that is? I thought he was only famous in sweden :o

Yeah, my favourite crime-books tbh. I like how sweden is portrayed (sp?) by him.
Guess he's pretty big in Germany in general.

News just in, it was a setup!

Not my problem.

you mean ... a conspiracy?

whatever floats your boat.

From what I saw they had every right to be shot at.

Did everyone else miss the bit where as soon as the soldiers landed, one was thrown overboard and several other were beaing beaten with iron bars?

Regardless, its not really worth caring about what goes on in that part of the world, it makes no difference, its a gvt issue now and the rest of us are merely specs with no rcon.

The soldiers violated international law as soon as they landed and the people were fighting back with every right to do so.

Noone should miss that part.

i do not wish to justify murder.

and let me say in advance that my opinion is biased towards israel and the israely people. not that i do not feel empathy towards the palestenian people and their situation.

but saying that those people are heroes who died defending themselves in international water is just ridiculous.
their intention all along wasn't in fact to bring aid to gaza. if they wanted to do just that they could do it peacefully through appropriate channels. they just wanted to get to gaza strip. (and by doing so they would probably break a million international laws, but that is really not the issue).
by letting those boats reach gaza strip you enable them (the bad people) with more means to get unsupervised supplies. and as gaza is a place ruled by extremist violent people. you really do want to supervise.

you interpert the israely soldiers landing on the boats as an "invasion". from my perspective it is a justified means to preserve a blockade that is rightly put on gaza.

what happened as a result of those soldiers landing, is just tragic. but as i see it , it was a provokation from the so called heroes on the boat from start to finish.

the Isreaelis broke international law when they entered the ships in international water (if it really was international waters, but afaik Isreal has not disputed it).
Thus, they were not allowed to be on that ship.
So the people on board had every right to throw them out.

Just like you would have the right to throw military commando from a foreign country out of your home in Isreal. But instead they want to confiscate your belongings and move you to their country to put you in jail for at least some days. If you then take a kitchen knife or a steel tube to try to stop them from doing that, they shoot your son or your brother. Afterwards they say they thought you might be a terrorist and might have had bombs in your home. Would still defend the commando in that case?

Of course it was stupid and not peaceful at all to pick up weapons. But the situation is simple: The Israeli military actually brought guns and had no right to enter the ships. They can't just go and claim they wanted peace.

to say that the israelies just broke international law and that this alone justifies violent behaviour (life thretening, actually) is just too narrow point of view.

if a ship is going towards your teritory with all claim and intention to do so. you have every right to stop them before things get worse. of course there is a law that you shouldn't invade ships (and that you have a right to defend yourself) but just as so - the israelies have the right to defend themselves against ships intending to cross their own borders.

the israeli military commando did not board those ships becaues he wanted to "invade" them. he just wanted to control the situation. those ships were going towards gaza. they actually landed on those ships with paintball guns! (they had a few pistols on them, which by the way were stolen and used against them,this caused the situation to become lethal. but the equipment they mainly carried was "crowd managment" equipment or whatever.

"But instead they want to confiscate your belongings and move you to their country to put you in jail for at least some days. If you then take a kitchen knife or a steel tube to try to stop them from doing that" - no. they wanted to bring the ships to israel, peacfully. ship the equipment to gaza. and release everyone to their homes (on their own expenses).

How do you know what happened on the ship? The short clip of violence from the activists? What about the shooting? Why not show that? Why not release all the video available and clear all doubts?

Considering the international water, i'm sure there is a law about what is "intention to cross border" in the strict sense and what is allowed to do in this case. I don't know the law, if you do give me a quote otherwise don't spread bullshit.



Give me a map with the internationally accepted insraeli sea border in that specific area.
Give me the entire video of the operation, including the shooting.
Give me the law that describes what is "intention to cross border" and what is allowed to do in the case a civilian shiip tries that, while it's still on international water.

-
It''s fascinating the difference in coverage between american media and that of the rest of the world.

if a ship is going towards your teritory with all claim and intention to do so. you have every right to stop them before things get worse.

wrong.
For that you get the territorial waters, which offer more than enough room for such actions.
Thus, Israel directly and knowingly violated international law.

It really is that simple.


/edit
upon looking at some laws linking below, I will admit, it is not completely clear where they had a right to board the ships in international waters. But saying "every right" was jsut as wrong as "no right".
In any case, the laws I saw say nothing about capturing the ship!

no. they wanted to bring the ships to israel, peacfully.

forcing people to go where they don't want to go in an area where you have no jurisdiction is abduction, nothing else.

do we really have to get in to such subtleties ?
look if they didnt want to come to israel they wouldn't be forced there this is by no means an abduction. just an attempt to "control the situation"
they could turn around and go back to turkey
they were warned a thousband times before they set sail that if they wont be allowed into gaza.

It's not subtle.
You took them from international water, to a place they didn't want to go and held them in jail.

What would you call that? A friendly invitation?


Just look at it this way, what if someone tried to move a lot of Jewish people to a jail in a different location. Would you also call that "just an attempt to control the situation"?

that depends. are those jews trying to breach a blockade ?

A blockade is not legal if the damage to the population is too great. The un reports 60% of the children have anemia and their economy has collapsed.

people just assumed the jews had a bomb in their house.

Who cares if there really was one?

they actually landed on those ships with paintball guns! (they had a few pistols on them, which by the way were stolen and used against them,this caused the situation to become lethal. but the equipment they mainly carried was "crowd managment" equipment or whatever.

Most professional army EVER :D

yeah, but those are loaded with pepperballs. i once saw those in action and trust me they work. there are lots of youtube vids on the topic if you want to see what happens when you get hit.

oh sorry, i wanted to say that i DO feel empathy towards the palestenians people and their situation.

I'm sure they feel very relieved by that fact.

The blockade is illegal, regardless of what you think is right. Additionally, they were still in international waters when this happened.

in law terms the blockade is legal by all means, it's also unimportant if they were (still) in international waters as the commander of the ship clearly said they were heading towards gaza and were dead set on breaking the blockade ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKOmLP4yHb4 ).

see here (67a-f): http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c4...1f002d49ce

i don't think that is what this is really about though.

both sides need to get their stories right. 'peaceful activists' do not look like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo or that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE or pack this kind of stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAMFnu8ZBwk

on the other hand heavily cut video material by the idf isn't exactly an unbiased source in this case.

The blockade is not legal.

I wouldn't look peaceful, either... if I had been shot at, and then boarded. This is the logical reaction to being attacked by pirates in international waters, REGARDLESS of your destination.

again, i seriously doubt this is about international law and its understanding and application to a certain case. 'free gaza' was there to prove a point and i'd rather discuss their cause than international law.

yet i'd still disagree on your perception of 'pirates capturing a ship in international waters' based on this (link above):

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b)-(f) [...]

...in your opinion: is this really what this is about?

The whole reason they went there was to get a message out to the world. I'd say it worked, since there's already talk of bringing Israel up on war crimes.

what was the message they were trying to get out to the world? that israel commits war crimes?

This is exactly the kind of reaction that proves the need for the aid to begin with. It was a win/win for them from the start.

true.

"If ships reach Gaza - victory, if terrorized by Zionists - victory."
(Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas)

...but what is their message?

That Israel are the bad guys.

It all seems to come down to the legality of the blockade http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8715000/8715428.stm

I'd search more for info about diseases, starvation or any other impact on the civilian polpulation in palestinian but i don't have time.

Also, the full video of the operation would have been nice.

That guy says he thinks it MIGHT be legal, if the blockade was legal. He obviously just doesn't know about international law.

Regardless of if it would be or not, the blockade itself is illegal - it doesn't even need to go beyond that.

you shouldn't forget to read points 68 and 69 of the San Remo Manual.

It is also a code for "armed conflict at sea", and while one can certainly describe the gaza conflict as armed, I wouldn't be too sure it really is "at sea".

People on this site: http://www.safetyatsea.net/ Don't seem to be so certain.

uh oh I better warn my neighbor then. he's got a garage full of those weapons.

sorry the only bad people i see here are the israelis. there is self defense and there is paranoia and this was the latter. you should consider voting for someone capable of leading the peace talks and making compromises, not a bloodthirsty populist.

the "they would have broken some laws too if we did not invade and murder 9 of them" excuse is an insult to any intelligent human being.

No one gives a fuck what goes in Wales, either, but if you were killed for no reason we'd still be pretty shocked.
I mean, we'd get over it quickly, but still...

It was in international waters, idiot. Hell, you obviously didn't even see the full video.

So?

If someone breaks into your house, points a gun at your face and tells you to open the safe do you start trying to convince him that he's breaking the law or that jesus has given you super human abilities to take on an automatic with your bare hands or the nearest lampshade?

At that point, its upto you whether you want die for certain by attacking, or whether you want to take your chances and swallow your pride.

It dosn't matter if the soldiers broke the law, it was stupid to react that way to people with helicopters, automatics.

This is why they really died, if you want to go back to the source you can shift the blame all day.

The bottom line was that situation was only ever going to go one way if the people on the boat reacted with violence. And it did.

What does that have to do with

they had every right to be shot at

Shooting at them, then boarding them, then shooting more... in international waters.

If they shot at them first (before boarding) then fair enough.

I seen two videos that only showed the soldiers landing and getting beaten up. And then firing.

Whichever way you cut it, you can't take on people with helicopters and automatics if you have no arsenal.

that jesus has given you super human abilities to take on an automatic with your bare hands or the nearest lampshade?

Depends...is my name Rapha?

rcon?

Those soldiers executed people that were sleeping on the ships, and they shot people in the back of the head.

Also, from what I've heard, it wasn't iron bars, it was batons made out of wood.

unlawfully entering with military force, searching and confiscating, using against those you stand in the way and taking people to prison.


this sounds familiar.

bunch of muzzies looking to aid a bunch of nigger muzzies got shot. big deal.


also I would like to mention that I really like sheep.

Well done you sir,

Have a bafta.

Still chipping away at you huh.

I think of the time you put into gaming, then i think of your aspirations, then I divide those by what you got out of it.

Its only natural you need to let off steam. You do what you have to do.

stop projecting pls

Whatever helps you at these times.

I know you are but what am I

What kind of "commando" is this btw? Takes minutes to board the ship and then they pull their paintball-guns?

Jews? Hello?

The Zionists strikes again..

Is it really that surprising for ANYONE? They don't want peace and you would think that the Jews would be one of the more peace hungry people.

Have u ever heard of jews doing something else than run away from something last 2000 years ? now that they have some firepowa and balls to do something they have to show off to ppl who are much more inferior to them :)

they are propably pissed off.

please fear me, i'm 2000 years old and tired of running away.
right.... :)

thats the case, yup.

jesus?

time to change your flag, pledged allegiance one time too many

[not from concentrate]

let's make concentrate camps

think my friend almost died laughing that episode, then smiled for weeks afterwards

wat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zb7_2EiZGY

.

seeing the videos.. i have mixed feelings about this
what kind of people attack special forces with steel rods in that manner? of course the israelis had to fire. just look at how they were clubbing one soldier that fell down.

also turks seem pretty fanatical in everything they do.. they have this disgusting aggressive nationalistic attitude (only on par with russians and americans). can't say i sympathize with them at all..

Why did they have to fire? They could retreat or surrender.

activists were hitting a fallen comrade? or they threw another overboard?
still.. it's really fucked up since a victim was shot several times from close range in the head and chest. they couldn't aim for the legs or what?

again: really fucked up..

You miss the main point: They are well trained and experienced soldiers. If they shoot to kill is because their orders allowed to shoot to kill. You can not empatize with soldiers as you'd do with any civilian, the excuse of "they were attacking my mate" doesn't work there. No one blames the soldiers themselves, but the ones who gave the orders in the first place.

yeah, you're right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-2TxIcdaOs

israel is a brutal terrorist regime, what's new?

masochism

don't taze me, bro

So according to netanjahu, hamas is behind this convoy (IHH - they have been workin in Gaza since the beginning of the israeli blockade in 2007).
But if that was the case, why did the IDF storm the ships with "paintball guns" ? WTF is the IDF doing with paintpall guns anyway?
Furthermore, all the ships and the load was controlled by the turkish customs. (ofcourse, now people will say you cant trust them for whatever reason)

With this incident Israel can chose the easy way to justify this act with the typical arguments of "Hamas" or "Terrorism", and is following a path of isolation. Internationally, Isreal is not in a good position (well actually they've never been). But this incident just showed that Israel is more likely not interested in obtaining freedom in Gaza, nor with any other countries.

Would be a good step by Israel if they actually stopped blocking gaza, in order to let some help through for those people living there.

They were going to use the paintball guns to mark the ones they were going to arrest.

It wasn't piracy because in international law "piracy" cannot apply to states or their armies. It was still illegal to board the ships in international waters though, it's just not called piracy.

Didn't Israel say they stopped the ship because it wasn't a humanitarian mission but a weapon supply for Hamas?
What weapons did they find? Some knives?

probably even found some axes!

Saddams invisible weapon of mass destruction cache, it does not exist but you can still pretend it does to push your agenda.

Binoculars, some bullet-proof vests (seems to be fake, though), a few knives from the food area, some tools from the repair area, and some wooden sticks.

Though, I saw a link on reddit earlier showing that at least one of the "weapon" photos is fake.

edit: http://i.imgur.com/u9Kul.jpg still front page. =P

lol nice find :D

binoculars and night vision equipment on a boat?

those guys sure were up to no good!

RailGuns, BFGs!

I knew it- they were camping the BFG.

=D

I wonder what other countries would do if a bunch of fanatical fucks, ( atleast on board the marmara ) who thinks they can brake a blockade on a terror organization which controls a not so small region just next to your front door and proving to be a constant threat on your civilians, would try to approach directly to your enemies.

It's really easy to judge israel actions and call them murderers after that kind of incident. but here are the facts -

1. Israel had the right to prevent the ship from entering directly to Gaza. the "fleet" was given the option to dock in Ashdod like other humanitarian ships which really looked to help the palestinians and not to make a big provocation, they were being warned dozens of times that if they will continue in their direction directly to Gaza their ships will be boarded and taken control of. If we agreed already on the fact that hamas constantly tries to arm itself, then if israel would let that ship pass then tommorow it could be a weapon ship from Iran, and here we go another channel for the Hamas to arm itself from. Israel action was legitimate. and the fleet activicts had no real reason to go directly to Gaza instead of passing through the common channels in order to provide support for the palestinian people ( a thing which is done on a much larger scale on a daily basis ), excpect for making a provocation.

2. The "Peace activists", at least on board the "Marmara", waited for the IDF special forces on the roof of the ship with iron clubs, knives, vests and even guns and shock grenades against "murderers"/"pirates" which were armed with paintball guns and anti-propaganda gear, along side with their hand-gun which were intended to be used only if the soldiers are in life-danger, and after the "Peace activicts" snatched one of the soldiers hand-gun and started firing toward the soldiers, only then the soldiers opened fire.

to conclude, This incident happend not because IDF is brutal, but because of the exact opposite. They weren't prepared to even be in a life-danger, they were suprised, brutally attacked with cold weapons right after landing on the ship, and only after being fired at, returned fired which caused the casualties. with better preparation and more aggressive approach by the Shayetet 13 like throwing shock grenades before landing on the ship, or arming the soldiers with real guns to threat, the outcome would probably be much less lethal.

3. Remember that the 5 other ships on this fleet were taken control of without any special incident, injuries or casualties. On the marmara they prepared an ambush against perhaps the best commando unit in the world and suffered from the consequences.

4. 15,000 tons of humanitarian equipment is being transferred to Gaza every week after being checked and reviewed by Israel for weaponry, You just don't know about it because nobody cares about anything until there are casualties and Israel to blame. The amount of humanitarian equipment on that "fleet" was only enough to fill up 30 trucks ( which already made their way into Gaza ), which is a negligible amount which only shows the real intention of this fleet. Palestinian people are not starving, and Gaza is not in a humanitarian crisis as it was 2 years ago.


I'm serving my second year in the IDF in a combat unit and one of the most basic and important values which are being constantly repeated by our officers and commanders is to respect human lives, and to use our weapons only after being attacked and in life danger. the emphasis on this value is so big in the IDF i just find it ironic that we are being called murderers and animals all around the world in every occasion. The world have to realize that Israel is in a reluctant and continuous war against the enemies around us, whether it's the Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and in war there are casualties no matter how hard you try to avoid it.
And yes my country isn't clean of mistakes and injustice toward the palestinians throughout the years but i can say wholeheartedly that IDF in it's approach and values is the most humanitarian army in the world.

terror organization which controls a not so small region just next to your front door and proving to be a constant threat on your civilians

Sounds like Israel to me.

Propaganda machine even reaching out to ESR, eh?

everyone disagreeing with you is part of the "propaganda machine" of israel? you kidding right?

anon + "I'm serving my second year in the IDF in a combat unit"

I can't tell - are you being serious?

actually yes, i had people telling me i was paid by the mossad before and they were being serious about it. if 'free gaza' is allowed to publish their stuff the 'other side' should be too, without getting attacked for being part of a 'propaganda machine' or whatnot.

Did you read his post or look at his name?

yea, because the world is so pro-israeli thanks to this propaganda.

If this gets nuked you'll get +100 respect by most.

Also, "A U.S. citizen who lived in Turkey is among the nine people killed when Israeli commandos stormed a Turkish aid ship heading for the Gaza Strip, officials said today. The victim was identified as Furkan Dogan, 19, a Turkish-American. A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency. "

k

A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest ...

Fail

Everyone knows it's 2 in the chest and one in the head

These Israeli commandos need to go back to CS school

but i can say wholeheartedly that IDF in it's approach and values is the most humanitarian army in the world.

THis is wrong on so many levels.

Ok because you must know better then me about what's going on in the IDF. television and subjective reports are more reliable then someone who lives the army for 2 years now and served in oferet yetsuka.

here are some footage from the incident, do you excpect soldiers not to protect themselves when being hit by 10 people at once with iron clubs and chairs, or being fired upon? I guess the answer is yes just because it's Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O5N1Gh3tjo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24

ok, two things

1) Kinda embarrassing that the "toughest military" retreats vs a pipe, street police can handle it better (eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O5N1Gh3tjo#t=0m22s). It's either 4 shots in the head, or this.

2) Did the israel release all video of the shooting? Almost looks dishonest to release just one side of the aggression, wouldn't you agree?

1) they could shoot and neturalize them right at the start but then you would say IDF are animals shooting protesters with clubs and knives, they got no respect for human lives. I really dont know what the hell you want. they were armed with paintball guns which had no effect on the protesters and their last option was either to run or to fight them face to face when they are outnumbered 10 to 1.

2) I agree but i think it really woulden't change much to see the IDF soldiers shooting because the outcome of this shooting is known for everyone. what is more important is to show that IDF did whatever they could BEFORE they started firing to justify this in front of the world and that's what you see in the movies i posted.

1) So against aggressive civilians idf is instructed to either duck for cover or aim for the head?

2) Video is facts, don't edit or withhold facts.

I love it when idiot cogs in a murder machine think they're informed. HOORAH

What rawgue said. Where are the videos of the soldiers killing people with headshots?

Somehow they got lost, and besides I heard from reliable source from IDF that in fact the terrorist on the board committed self-headshots as the IDF where trying to stop them from hurting each other.

lol jew

because it's not the point. the point is you can see the soldiers doing everything they could to avoid using their handguns, even being stabbed and overwhelmed by 10 people at once, so they did shot at the end but only after being shot at. It's a fact that one soldier got his handgun snatched and the activict started shooting toward the soldiers they returned fire. there are also rumours that there were weapon fire from some of the rooms in the lower deck.

Agree with me that if IDF cares so little about human lives they would start fire right at the start of the incident and believe me you woulden't see any picture of soldiers running from people with knives and clubs.

Yes, i have no problem with the individual soldiers. If you get sent into a situation like this, you just gotta do what you gotta do to keep your ass alive. However, sending them there was an unnecessary act of aggression by their commanders and the Israeli government. Preventive hate sucks.

as i said that subject is debatable, I wouldn't call it an act of aggression because i just really can't think of any other way of stopping the ship ( blocking it wasn't practical due to it's speed a size ), besides maybe sabotaging it or something, but i don't know if it could have been done.

2) Did the israel release all video of the shooting? Almost looks dishonest to release just one side of the aggression, wouldn't you agree?

teenagers getting shot in the face kind of ruins the "preventive non-agression" image.

I had the pleasure of studying art history under Meir Gal. An Israeli artist who has been teaching here in New York for ~20 years. He was exhibited several times in Israel and gave lectures on his work. He was a great professor, everyday he would come in with 2-3 newspapers and we would discuss the headlines and try to connect them to the art world. Often though these discussions would have little to do with art but were enlightening in a different way. He was always good at pointing out injustices that often went unnoticed.

Although I had a good relationship with him throughout the semester, I failed to keep in touch with him which I have since regretted. About 3 months ago I was interested in what he was up to so I googled him. I found this interview to be a good read.

The Art of Crime: A Conversation with Meir Gal

An excerpt:

"...as long as I talked about the ethnic struggle between Jews in Israel, this was OK. But as soon as I trespassed and began to talk about the Palestinian as victim, everything changed. The Palestinian is thought of as a victimizer, not a victim. Almost all the Israelis I know think of themselves as the victims. At the start of the evening, Sami Shalom Chetrit said he hoped such gatherings would help bring about the Mizrahi revolution, which for some reason was slow in arriving. The busting of the slide projector shows why it's slow in arriving."

regard my profile pic

Same thing again..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12842...rrer=yahoo

No deaths this time. Its almost as if trying to club someone with a gun was a bad move!!!!

Don't care what rules were broke, the people who died had a choice and the made the wrong one.

It's almost as if attracting negative international attention was a bad move!!!

Israel = Jews

GET FACTS STRAIGHT

Jews don't have a gov't, Israel does.

http://www.culturesofresistance.org/gaza-freedom-flotilla

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wFKH9fu4UY

lulul, the norwegian talking at 39 min is a friend of my roommate :D