oh hey its someone with common sense, nice.

^^ true

bring new maps, not new old maps.

nvm :D

more cooller?

nomadic isn't destrukt

lol, yeah i got it confused somehow

Americans are all the same anyway

you dont god! >:(

Hub rox...dot

T O X J Q
O
X
J
Q

NEW MAPS

bye bye ztn please
bye bye dm6 please

U re loony? U want ztn out??? My favorite map ever?

p.s.: I agree with Toxjq. I always thought so. I agree better with a blend of old and some new maps. Only some old maps, like ztn (classic and untouchable!). And MORE, MORE, MORE new maps!

I just think ZTN is very very stale at this point.

well, its not really stale and its the best duel map vq3 has ever had but.... its old, it just has to go at some point SO IM WITH GILLZ HERE

I agree, but it should be last to go :)

And because it's your favoritest bestest fuzziest map ever, it shouldn't be removed. Good reason.

bye bye ZTN
are you mad???

Sorry Rapha. Cypher will win now (:D).

Huhahauhuahuahuauhahuauhauhauh!! XD

Now tell another joke, dude!

Alright then.

Did you hear about the fire at the circus?

Rapha will win QuakeCon 2010. Believe me and have a nice day.

And let's not change the subject of this topic again.

Such a daring prediction. You must have balls the size of a planet.

I didn't change the subject. I was telling you another joke as you requested.

Do you want the answer or not? Retard.

I want the answer. :(

It was in tents.

:DDDDDDDDDDDDD

Oh man, I actually laughed x)

What do you get if you divide the circumference of a pumpkin by its diameter?

I don't know, what?

j0sh_ said it :D

pumpkin pi!

Give us the answer !!!

#44

New maps sure, but they should be ones people actually enjoy playing. My knowledge of the early history of quake is a bit lacking, but I don't think anyone demanded hub/ztn or whatever map to be played. People played them because they enjoyed them. Forcing people to play crap maps, for the same of being new, does not seem like a sustainable solution to me?

"but I don't think anyone demanded hub/ztn or whatever map to be played."

Every other post on this site was demanding the inclusion of ZTN.

he said early history of quake, not early history of quakelive

I actually agree to a degree.

Just not as far as dm6 ;)

if they are good enough yes.

Just pay hubster to do 3 maps

hm well yes, but the fun mostly comes with getting to know the map better and better i think;P i actually hate hub because i never bothered to learn it and get raped by way better players who know where the teleporters end... :]

Yes, the reason you lose is because you don't know where teleporters lead to. If you did, you would destroy all opposition with no fuss.

lol ;p

toxjq seems like a really nice guy.... but won't ever be as nice as fazz xD

as always, tox giving another nice interview
gg nomadic and gg toxic

fantastic interview.

great interview

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toxic from poland? trololololo

are u stupid by nature or learning!?

why u r so rude? :(

He sees your flag and rages. Don't take it personal.

fuckin fail

too many q4 related questions but still cool

quake 4 is his game, what would you expect.

as a new(er) player.. its nice to see an oldschool / famous player like this echo my thoughts and sentiments about the maps situation.

tox > qlr

penis > u

no u

toxjc will win rapha but won't win Quakecon :)

anonymous will write in English but it won't make any sense.

Let's hope he can win some English!

toxjq will win rapha('s hand??), but he won't win quakecon.
I guess thats what the anonymous is saying?

cool, so after neok and tox somebody should also find paul nelson and ask him some stuff too

He's kinda right about the maps.

However, maps like ztn or hub are all times classics, they HAVE TO stay in the mappool for like 2-3 more years at least imho.

And i don't think that maps like t9 are high quality standards. Only T7 is nice from the new duel maps.

Dm6 could be an excellent map with some tweaking, cuz atm it's not really balanced and sometimes even random especially with the "new" spawn system. Basically, if you're not playing quake for like 5-8 years and/or if you don't get monster aim, you can't win @ dm6, as simple as that. I personally enjoy aim based maps, but when it's getting old and when so many people complain about it, well, i guess that something has to change. So, as i said, if they never plan to tweak dm6, then simply remove the map for duel, and let it be played only at pub CA or something lol, cuz it's still a fun map anyways :).

Won't talk about dm13, this is probably the worst duel map atm.

The "perfect" duel mappool would consist of :

ztn, hub, t7, 1 new map, 1 new map (5 maps then)
or
ztn, hub, t7, new dm6, 1 new map (still 5 maps)
or
ztn, hub, t7, new dm6, 1 new map, 1 new map (6 maps)

But pls, get rid of T4 (as good as the map can be, and it's either loved or hated), T2, dm13 etc... These maps are sooo 2000-2002's...

And pls remove T9 (tired of this tele camp/spam/luck/back & endless plasma/rl spam spam spam, no brain YA cycling etc etc)

"He's kinda right about the maps.

However, maps like ztn or hub are all times classics, they HAVE TO stay in the mappool for like 3-4 ymore years imho."

[citation needed]

edited :D

also note his comment about 5 second weapon respawn time.

idk why its only 5 for duel. It simplifies the game a lot, but on the other hand 15 is not noob friendly. How about...10

Yeah, something like 8-10 secs could be interesting imo.

ye, we should have a pro-mode in duel with 10 or 15 like it is for tdm!

"Quake Live is mostly about timing and controlling the items like RA, MEGA, YA. But if you look at Quake 4, it was just as important to control the weapons of your opponent as it was to take armors and megas. Since the weapon respawn is 5 seconds in Quake Live, it’s impossible to keep your opponent from getting the weapons he wants after a period of time. You can be successful for a while, but in Quake 4 it could be better to give your opponent an RA if you could take the lightning gun or rail or rocket. Because then you would win the next fight without any trouble at all. But in Quake Live you are pretty much forced to take all the fights at all armors and megas."

would be really interesting if there would be a change like this. would make for really nice ways to comeback for the out of control player. old and stale maps like dm6 could be played in new ways!

If there would be a QL II (based on Q4) tox could advertise it pretty good to his fanboyz and Q4 haters :D

interesting and not because of all the maplist bullshit that always comes up, its because of the interesting meta game discussions and the chance to catch up with one of the best quake players

nomadic: I think it was obvious to everyone that Quake 4 suited your play style best. Do you feel your game can be adapted to suit Quake Live like it did in Quake 4?
tox: I think the key is to always find a new way of playing, and it’s all about making your opponent unable to play as he is used to, or how he has been practicing to. It doesn’t really matter if you play aggressive or defensive, just if you make your opponent off his game style and his “plan” he brought to the game.

Well, I haven't played Quake for the past 10 years, so every map is quite "new" to me :P. People gonna hate me for this but just take a look at the 1.6 scene and his five consistent maps over the past years. It might be the same shit over and over but yet people find new "tricks", tactics and playstyles. Still ESWC Final had about 50k viewers!

Imo get five or maybe seven decent maps into the mappool.
Get rid of dm6 (for obvious reasons :P), dm13 (corridors and +back -.-) and maybe t9. Add hub and phrantic though I don't know whether it fits ql. I prefer a mappool consists of five maps over seven maps because imo 5 maps it grants tense games if pros concentrate on less maps in their preparation. A bo5 final would have a bad taste if each of the contenders dismiss one map.

you cant compare a 5v5 team game with a duel shooter when it comes to the mappool

People are still finding new things to do with those 5 maps though so you can't really compare CS1.6 to Quake.

With Quake, there's not a lot of difference you can do tactic wise that relates to the map

just shows you how far CS is behind quake...

Could take that view, but you can still make tons of new strategies and plays according to certain players strengths, other team's players or strengths or map knowledge. The maps in the 5 pool of CS has been done to within an inch of it's life, but you'll still see interesting stacks, ninja spots or spam spots

Yeah and Quake is the number one shooter oh wait -.-

First of all Quake needs balanced and spectator friendly maps and imo we have only two right now.

I still think that a consistent map pool of five maps would work. I remember a move from k1llsen on dm6 were he spawns at red, picks it, rocket jumps up to rail and then to yellow to catch the opponent off-guard. I never have seen this before in a official game from any other pro and dm6 is probably the most played map ever. Even 2gd was surprised by his move and I think purri was like omfg after he got a rocket into his face :D. If you watch games from players like burnedd, draven and all the other semi-pros you always will see the same predictable shit. No offence intended :P.
Cooller said that for the first time he prepared with watching demos especially for eswc and I think that a lot of pros still don't "waste" time for it to actually prepare for a explicit opponent. If they did we probably would see some closer games. I might be totally wrong but I don't think that five maps for at least one year would hurt ;) and for new players it wouldn't be bad either :P.

imo the reason for ql not being the most popular shooter is because it is too hard to learn/too hard to do.
Most ppl get a rush out of winning a game, it makes them feel supperior to the nmy. Now in CS no matter how shit you are your team win win at least a few rounds on each map, cuz of the random aiming stuff and lack of movement skill required. And when you win you are not only supperior to 1 guy, but to an entire team.
So the easier game to play is often the most popular game as well.

This tunrs into the reason it's more popular to watch because ppl like to relate to the game and cs is just more realistic and has the bigger player base.

No offense but I've started playing 1.6 a bit more seriously and have to disagree with you on some of the points.

No matter how shit you are, a Quake TDM match would be as forgiving/punishing as a CS match coz your team will score points, if not mop the floor with the opposition completely. In CS, your movement and speed is governed by the weight you're carrying, which Quake is apparently independent of. Example, switching to a knife makes you run faster in CS. There's strafing as well and can be very crucial in some situations. No wonder it's annoying coz it makes obvious shots go amiss but it's very much a part of every pro match I've spectated so far. When you win, a Quake TDM match is again as rewarding in terms of making a team feel superior to the other one. CS is by no means an easier game if you actually study the elements like weapon recoil which alone can take quite a while to master and the obvious shot-registry problems that occur even on LAN (something that we often see only for higher pings in Quake, like Toxjq mentioned).

It's spectator worthy because it's centralized around an objective - planting the bomb and defusing it. Quake TDM is more about denying the other team the items that they wanna get (Quad, RA, YA or a crucial weapon). People consider item timing as brain damage for obvious reasons, something that CS doesn't involve at all. Inclination to watch/play CS is therefore only natural.

really, is quake too hard for you...?
In CS you seriously have to try to fuck up stuff for your team if you're noob. In quake it follows automatically, it's not just that you die, but noobs can also take a red / good weapon / quad and just waste it... hey they can even give away a good weapon to the nmy team without putting up a fight.
Compare that to CS where a noob can maybe just block a teamie once in a while, and he might even get a frag onto someone cuz of the random aiming in CS....

And seriously man mastering the recoil of the weapons in cs is just always moving your mouse in the same way after you started pressing fire.
And omfg when I take out a knife I can walk faster this must mean movement is a part of the game? Where is the skill? I press this button I walk as fast as a turtle! While when I press this button I walk as fast as a snail.....

Having an objective makes the game a LOT less dynamic (see the neok i-view). Because really man when I watch a cs game (and mind you I never really played it at all) the ingame sounds are shit on streams etc. Yet my prediction of what the nmy will do after like 5 rounds of watching (to learn the map) them play is perfect.

In CS you seriously have to try to fuck up stuff for your team if you're noob.

You can't compare pub scrubs to tdm/ctf -.- Wrong shitty flashbang and the round is lost, even one missed shot can mean the end of a round and you don't have that pressure in quake. A kill in tdm or ctf isn't the end of a game in cs it could be.

it's not just that you die, but noobs can also take a red / good weapon / quad and just waste it... hey they can even give away a good weapon to the nmy team without putting up a fight.

You get dropped a weapon at the beginning of a round and do nothing with it, lost money but hey this can't be compared to quake ;)

Compare that to CS where a noob can maybe just block a teamie once in a while, and he might even get a frag onto someone cuz of the random aiming in CS....

Yeah every noob can hit kill someone once in a while and you can't do this probably in quake, but a noob won't kill anything in a serious 5v5 game. Quake aim is different but by no means harder.

And seriously man mastering the recoil of the weapons in cs is just always moving your mouse in the same way after you started pressing fire.

The spray differs but thats spraying isn't that hard but if you have 3 guys rushing a spot I would like to see how you master it :D.

And omfg when I take out a knife I can walk faster this must mean movement is a part of the game?

Faster walking yeah you probably didn't knew it and most of the cs gamers don't know it either. Cs movement can be complex but isn't really required on a competive level and necessary like in Quake.

Because really man when I watch a cs game (and mind you I never really played it at all) the ingame sounds are shit on streams etc. Yet my prediction of what the nmy will do after like 5 rounds of watching (to learn the map) them play is perfect.

The cs sound is by far better than the shitty quake live crap. I mean I can predict the next step of any dueler while watching a stream but this does't mean that I could do it while a actually play the game. Sry but you have no clue about competive 1.6 at all, there are maybe different skills required but that doesn't mean you need less of it. It's easier to learn but it takes quite a time to understand the meta game of a 5v5 game.

wait, you're under the impression I'm talking about pro level play in my whole post... that's not how I intended it and I'm sorry if I made it seem that way. I actually *am* talking mostly about random games (how the **** would you let a noob play in a serious 5v5 clan-match or a 4v4 tdm) :p

I'm mainly talking about the low - mid level public players.
I'm kinda assuming that you read my 2 posts (+this one) as somewhat of a whole vision onto CS, rather than 2 different posts ;)
The low - mid players are the ones that you need to build up a community / have good watched streams etc etc.

But I am still of an opinion that CS requires less individual skills as Quake does, and that the teamplay in it is so much less dynamic (not necissarily less skilled although my personal believe is that quake requires more insight from all players but I can't be sure cuz I'm not high skilled in CS :p)... And with this again I mean on a low - mid range skill set.

In all games you will have that to reach the top (aka top3 of the world or smth) you have to actually have skill (and lots of it) So the better you get the less difference in individual skill there will be. I can't say fatal1ty his his aim was better than heaton's or smth like that ;)

The only place where I did refer to pro games is in the prediction / tactics / teamplay kind of sense.... and here I'm not saying anything new, the maps in CS only have a few possibilities to move effectively. Most even only have 3 hallways which go through the whole level, and 2 spots to plant the bomb. This leads to just a few different type of playstyles for each map in terms of teamwise movement. (biggest part of tactics). And I say that because this is so, I can read the games as soon as I start to have a grasp on the map.... and I'm pretty much never wrong while watching a (highskilled) stream.

And I would seriously doubt that you're able to predict what the players next step will be in a duel because even on the insanest high level (see last world final) the nmy of rapha get caught off guard when rapha makes some strange decision and gets a huge payoff.... if you can predict him doing that then just prac a bit and you'll be top5 of the world np :)

Ah I'msry I missunderstood your first two posts then :P. Yeah publevel is nowhere near to a decent 5v5 level. The problem is that I haven't played on pubs for years despite some dm which is probably the only thing you can still play without getting flamed. Pub sucks, I don't get it how people can be so fucking dumb sometimes and apparently think they are good :/.

But I am still of an opinion that CS requires less individual skills as Quake does

I agree, especially in duel you need a lot of it. In cs your movement can suck in quake it shouldn't otherwise you have a huge disadvantage. I remember when I fucked up the rail to bridge jump twice in a duel and lost it because he got me while I was jumping vs the ledge -.-.

and that the teamplay in it is so much less dynamic

Yeah ofc on a low-mid tier range. People do the weirdest moves in cs and some are so fucking stupid it's unbelievable. Even if you follow the german eps plenty of players are far away from a good level. I once was quite good aimwise but the problem is to get into a decent team without knowledge and vitamin b. I'm not sure whether it is the same in quake. Cs is way slower then quake and you don't have all the time action, but in certain situations it is really dynamic. For example if the opponents enter a spot or faking it, but on a pub level those things are non existent :D.

And I would seriously doubt that you're able to predict what the players next step will be in a duel because even on the insanest high level

Well it depends on the player :P. What I meant was that I can say ok he will probably move to red and do as much damage without receiving any of it at the same time. Ofc I can't predict every move from a player like rapha and I probably will never be up to it but this is what makes duel so special in eSport and I can watch it all day long without getting bored.

But I am still of an opinion that CS requires less individual skills as Quake does, and that the teamplay in it is so much less dynamic (not necissarily less skilled although my personal believe is that quake requires more insight from all players but I can't be sure cuz I'm not high skilled in CS :p)... And with this again I mean on a low - mid range skill set.

Derp? How on earth is the team-play in CS less dynamic then say TDM or CTF?! In TDM there's really only ONE dynamic... Control whatever item and go for the powerup... Infact, that one dynamic barely ever changes... Take for example dm14... Same ol' jump down for bs, rocket jump up off the jump pad and rush quad. Quad tries to get the bs into a corner and lg it down. It barely ever changes...

OW NO GOD IT NEVER CHANGES ON DM14, yes everyone always jumps off of BS with an rj and rushes quad..... except that in ALL games at the start quad and BS spawn at the same time, and in pretty much all games they are spawning at the same time for most of the map.
but omg, then it's always the case that the bs rj's up and goes to SG to block the quad runner..... but hmmm what if the quad comes from rail..... Or what if someone can delay the bs pickup for 2 - 3 seconds and BS is too late to rj up?

The thing that makes quake more dynamic is that the timing of items can change, and that the weapons are not given to you at the start but you have to fight for them. Also starting spawns are randomized which make sure that you can hardly ever do the same move off of the 1st spawn (aka 2 of your ppl spawn in the red room -> other decision than when 2 nmy's spawn in red)

and ye in quake you all secure an item and play from there.... and there are usualy 2 or 3 possitions on a map which are worth holding, and 1 of them is usualy easiest to defend or gives you a bit more powerups..... That is ofcourse a LOT more dynamic than having 2 bomb spots to plant your bomb at where there are only a few possitions on the map to defend from... I mean have you ever even seen a CS match and compared it to quake?

OW NO GOD IT NEVER CHANGES ON DM14, yes everyone always jumps off of BS with an rj and rushes quad..... except that in ALL games at the start quad and BS spawn at the same time, and in pretty much all games they are spawning at the same time for most of the map.
but omg, then it's always the case that the bs rj's up and goes to SG to block the quad runner..... but hmmm what if the quad comes from rail..... Or what if someone can delay the bs pickup for 2 - 3 seconds and BS is too late to rj up?

Pretty much just described all that can happen with the powerups on dm14... :P

a lot more can happen but even this small amount of stuff is more complex than anything I've seen in CS. And then in quake there are maps which play completely different.
I mean you can see powerups in quake kinda like the bomb in CS only there doesn't have to be a clear winner. One team can take the powerup and the other team can kill it, or one of the 2 teams actually 'wins' it and can start to use it. While in CS as soon as you win the bomb spot the round is over (where win means either disable or explode or kill the whole nmy team). In quake when you kill the whole nmy team around quad you also win it btw (because I seem to have to be very specific with describing quake to you).

But in quake there are also weapons + armors which can give you a much higher chance of taking the powerup. And if you have a good enough possition you can even kill the powerup while defending a less important item (RA or smth).

a lot more can happen but even this small amount of stuff is more complex than anything I've seen in CS.

Which let me remind you, is from your experience of public CS and 2 random matches...

No! My first love is and will always be quake. It's just that the lack of an Indian QL server is pushing me towards other games. I do play Q3 on LAN at work during my breaks but there's really not anyone decent enough to play with. You can do the same mistake in quake by losing a RL to someone who just robbed a quad and machine gunned you and you couldn't switch fast enough to a weapon of less importance tactically, seeing that you'd die for sure. I'm assuming that by random aiming, you mean the spray and spam that seems to work on and off? I'd say every game has varying degrees of fluke + skill + luck + timing and CS and quake are not too far apart from that perspective.

I do agree that Quake's learning curve is much steeper but there's only so much you can actually do in a TDM on say DM6. Unlike CS, where a map can be pretty tricky for the T side (de_Train, for example) and can become a pretty strat heavy game, simply cannot be compared to a pre-decided advantageous positioning or defensive gameplay around items in quake. A team that moves in on RA on a DM6 TDM for instance, would have the upper hand at striking assuming they have the right weapon to do so. So irrespective of whether red or blue push in, whosoever makes the move to steal the item/weapon wins. In CS, the luxury of moving in can end in a complete rape simply due to the map you play on. That's where the dynamic aspect of CS lies.

On the contrary, having an objective makes the chances of making a mistake even higher. Why? Along with the objective, one entire team is static and is waiting with its scopes out for you. Having a hidden enemy make a mistake is a challenge, don't you think? We see entrance into a bomb site being faked while the team secretly rotates behind smoke and flashes to a more favorable area. Honestly, if you can see through the plan that easily, then you should actually try playing it professionally :) I'm only saying that both the games are not comparable at all due to different physics, different things to fight for with different weapons and huge variance in the offensive/defensive strats.

thanks for your opinion: I have a honest question, how many games of tdm you have played with 7 other decent players ? I dont remember any point in past 7 years when India had 8 decent players playing tdm...maybe ctf some point in distant past. Your dm6 analysis sounds alright in paper but in reality it works a lot differently. its actually fairly easy to shut down the other team even if they have RA one after another, If you put your two guys to camp in lg area and two more in the rl bridge/rail. Quake as such has lot of strategic things in the micro level as well as overall, which you have not realized because of lack of playing. Also the fun thing about quake is that it rewards individual skill to the maximum extent.

You are in a position to provide your opinion about cs 1.6 however since you actually played it as a team game. Also any game where head-shot with any weapon is a frag will always be more aim-heavy / luck dependent than quake, no matter what.

Very precisely put.
We're facing the same problem in India that i guess was there some 4-5 years back.
Lots of new players trying to pick up the game but the CA gamemode is way too simple to pick up(no selfdamage, RJ your way to glory)
in fact, most of them don't know how to strafe and have no inclination to try it either, RJ is simpler they say :[
No items = not bothering to time or whatever.

Thanks for your opinion but I've played plenty of Q3 TDM on LAN but not professionally and rather to kill time with a bunch of friends. I wish I could say that about QL, but it's simply not the case. I did not say that it's easy in Quake not to shut down the other team even if they have RA. I simply stated that they have the upper hand in the striking department IF AND ONLY IF they have the right weapons to do so. The benefit can be canceled out if the opposite team has all the right weapons. It's like stealing a quad and feeling like a god when someone just guns you down with a shotgun simply because you had an MG in QL. That being said, I was rather pointing out that CS is not as camp heavy as people make it look/sound like. Also, its comparison to quake over and over is just naive.

Well, talking about luck, what would you call a telefrag? Also, is every air-rocket the result of complex mathematical calculation about speed and vertical? C'mon! The number of times it occurs in quake might be < The headshots in CS but it does occur, even at pro level (as seen in some recent matches). Also, CS does not suffer from the spawn system which QL at present does which gives one person a clear upper hand. I don't expect you to value my opinion but noctis, k1llsen, strenx and many others have forfeited several games citing spawns as the reasons. (un)Luck(y) much? If CS is not about individual skill, what do you think the likes of Markeloff and fr0d have achieved by sticking to the awp? I'll repeat: It's pointless to compare both the games. Both have their +'s and -'s.

From the kind of replies pouring in, i've been branded as a CS fanboy already. So I'll do the wise thing here and end this inconsequential discussion.

CS sux Quak rulz lololo

Hi :)

lol

"Well, talking about luck, what would you call a telefrag? Also, is every air-rocket the result of complex mathematical calculation about speed and vertical? C'mon!"

subconscously your brain is determining that!

I'd consider a telefrag a case of bad timing, and not luck. It should be obvious to the first person going through that they may get telefragged if the second person is too close. It's certainly not random who dies in that situation, and thus, not luck.

sucks that there are no servers there :(
but hmm ye I thought about trying CS a bit but I couldn't stand the whine on servers... nowadays in QL it actually is pretty bad as well (on the low - mid servers). and I couldn't get myself to actually learn how all the maps and a new way of aiming etc. If some team wants me as their coach who predicts what the nmy's will do that's fine with me though just gimme a call and if the deal is right I can help them out with tactics / prediction of the nmy np :)
It's always been my main skill to see the intent of the nmy rather than anything else. (in ql for example my individual skill is so low :( but I'm still on an ok level because I know a lot about the game, and I'm able to read my opponent).

However in QL nowadays you see a lot more teams actually timing the railgun on dm6 and then leaving the possition to share the rail / use it more effective etc. And this makes sure that there are no real fixed possitions.

Lately you can see that a lot of teams actually push for RA when the guy who just picked it up went to secure the rail (which isn't up but he doesn't know it) and some weak guy of the team pushing for red will mg towards the guy who now is at rail (making him feel important) and then they suddenly lost RA :p

Ofcourse there are still only a few ways to effectively regain control of a room (because you can deny weapons from the one team who's in control and use that to regain control over the lost area's). But the teamplay in quake is very very dynamic. (as the example above hopefully shows)

hello round and money based game versus a dynamic 20 minute game with very less fixed situations.

there are 10 times more factors that come into play in ql tdm.

also dont forget that in cs, every "pro tactic" can be simply beaten by those classic, fragmovie like, fullauto, hallway ace kills.

i remember an interview of an fnatic player (a while ago), that they dont really play tactics. they just have a few basic moves, and superduper aim.

spectating cs is super boring too, its easy to compare with commentating, not much to say on the game in cs, but alot in quake.

summary: cs is very similiar to ca, and ca is the worst quake gametype, nuffsaid

also dont forget that in cs, every "pro tactic" can be simply beaten by those classic, fragmovie like, fullauto, hallway ace kills.

So what? Trust me those scenes are probably the best thing about cs. The feeling that you can take out two or three guys and decide the round with pure rare skill is so fucking great. I miss this in quake :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxdds_CuyOM

i remember an interview of an fnatic player (a while ago), that they dont really play tactics. they just have a few basic moves, and superduper aim.

That was last year and yeah he said that they keep it simple because it works for them. But the way they executed the strats and their teamplay was probably the best the whole cs scene have ever seen.
You just don't have any fucking clue ;). And don't give me this crap about tdm super duper tactics -.-.
I think teamplay is way more importent then tactics in tdm but maybe you are able to correct me.

spectating cs is super boring too, its easy to compare with commentating, not much to say on the game in cs, but alot in quake.

Yeah that's why more than 10k viewers watch a top-notch cs game and maybe 80 a quadgaming final :D. Sry, but two to three flag captures in 20 minutes are nowhere as exciting as a 16:14 and tdm isn't that interesting either. Duel on the other hand is really the only game mod which most of the time grants enough tense and excitement.

summary: cs is very similiar to ca, and ca is the worst quake gametype, nuffsaid

Again you have no fucking clue what you are saying. It's ok to dislike a game but your arguements are so weak. The only thing you can do is hate and nothing else. I mean I don't like sc2 or any other rts because after a while it gets so fucking boring but I would never say that it doesn't take any skill or is boring to watch for other peoples.

ok, you agree, thats nice :)

It's funny how many times you can point out that the opposite side of the argument has no clue and yet spit out as much bullshit as you did in that post. A few things you have to improve your trolling on:

with pure rare skill

Calling AIM and the limited movement that is in CS being so important in the game a good thing is fucking stupid, nobody's gonna think you're stupid enough to believe it. But it's a good thing for pubs for it is very much random, on that thing I have to agree

That was last year and yeah he said that they keep it simple because it works for them. But the way they executed the strats and their teamplay was probably the best the whole cs scene have ever seen.

Too obvious here too. He said it was very simple, you agree and state it's the best anyone ever did in the community and then go on to bash how clueless he is. Nobody's falling for that.

Yeah that's why more than 10k viewers watch a top-notch cs game and maybe 80 a quadgaming final :D. Sry, but two to three flag captures in 20 minutes are nowhere as exciting as a 16:14 and tdm isn't that interesting either. Duel on the other hand is really the only game mod which most of the time grants enough tense and excitement.

Yeah popularity obviously means complexity, go figure why so many sports\games are too complex for a casual player's mind to comprehend and thus enjoy without years of nurturing in the case of popular sports today.


To sum it up, level up your trolling. That is, if you're trolling, and I sure hope you are :\

Calling AIM and the limited movement that is in CS being so important in the game a good thing is fucking stupid, nobody's gonna think you're stupid enough to believe it. But it's a good thing for pubs for it is very much random, on that thing I have to agree

Why is it stupid? It's not like you don't need any brain in cs but if your aim sucks compared to the others you can have as much brain as you want you won't win anything. That doesn't mean you have to be the best aimer but if you wan't to reach something in cs you should have a proper aim. Apparently you lack this ability.

Too obvious here too. He said it was very simple, you agree and state it's the best anyone ever did in the community and then go on to bash how clueless he is. Nobody's falling for that.

Learn to read you fucking moron. Seriously their tactics were simple but the way they executed them and their teamplay was just perfect. And for christs sake don't tell me that every quaker is a brainiac -.- Just take a look at strenx who uses simple tactics but still execute them in a way not many players can do and if I'm not wrong he won quite some money. Another example if you still need one. Toxjq came back and he still won with sweden vs france. Yeah I bet they prepared for this glorious brain act. Not one fucking cs player could do something like this after such a long brake in such a short time.

Yeah popularity obviously means complexity, go figure why so many sports\games are too complex for a casual player's mind to comprehend and thus enjoy without years of nurturing in the case of popular sports today.

Did I say ANYTHING about complexity? Ofc the game itself is plain simple. I'm not gonna deny it. Even soccer is simple as fuck but to play it on a high level you have to understand certain things and actually have skill+talent. It's like with cs, you have to understand designated things like positioning, when to push and when not, handling 1vx situations and so on.. You can learn those things to a certain level but in the end you have it or not. And trust me you wouldn't even get beyond mid irc opponents after a year of playing cs :/

Why is it stupid? It's not like you don't need any brain in cs but if your aim sucks compared to the others you can have as much brain as you want you won't win anything. That doesn't mean you have to be the best aimer but if you wan't to reach something in cs you should have a proper aim. Apparently you lack this ability.[q]

It's stupid because in quake, that would never be enough, while in CS you boast how it's awesome and skillful. Double standards.

[q]Learn to read you fucking moron. Seriously their tactics were simple but the way they executed them and their teamplay was just perfect. And for christs sake don't tell me that every quaker is a brainiac -.- Just take a look at strenx who uses simple tactics but still execute them in a way not many players can do and if I'm not wrong he won quite some money. Another example if you still need one. Toxjq came back and he still won with sweden vs france. Yeah I bet they prepared for this glorious brain act. Not one fucking cs player could do something like this after such a long brake in such a short time.

Learn to read yourself idiot, I do not care that they were able to do the tactics better than anybody else, there was no actual strategy behind it and that's sad when a competitive game only has this to shine besides it's aim and teamwork requirements, having removed all the other skills found in other FPS games just for that.

Strenx couldnt do shit up until upping his brain game, and now it's very, very far from the mindless shaftwhoring it used to be. And don't get me started on toxjq, quake is a brain game and such a player like tox, having dominated the scene for years couldn't have forgotten everything, no random player could repeat that.

Did I say ANYTHING about complexity? Ofc the game itself is plain simple. I'm not gonna deny it. Even soccer is simple as fuck but to play it on a high level you have to understand certain things and actually have skill+talent. It's like with cs, you have to understand designated things like positioning, when to push and when not, handling 1vx situations and so on.. You can learn those things to a certain level but in the end you have it or not. And trust me you wouldn't even get beyond mid irc opponents after a year of playing cs :/

It isn't like cs at all, the talent and genes required for such a sport could never be compared to a game, which as you said, comes down to executing the strat you had already practiced for hours. As much as you'd want, no sports\gaming analogy will ever make it to anything more than the aim, teamwork and and strat x>strat y fest that is CS. Me not doing good in it would never prove anything other than I do not have the talent for two of these (two, because even a monkey could learn a strat after some amount of practice) simple things if I ever did try and fail at it. But who cares if there's no more to it.

And you did use popularity as an argument replying to a paragraph about spectator value, which in the end comes down to these three things and if you cannot prove that there's no more to it, then the spectator value is low too and numbers do not disprove this shit in any way, in fact they support the idea that it's simple to learn.or even master from a spectator's point of view.

That's a pretty shitstorm post right there, but I'll indulge anyway

really, is quake too hard for you...?
In CS you seriously have to try to fuck up stuff for your team if you're noob

Nope. Can just be a case of bad timing, being unlucky with a 1vX, or just being shit for you to loose a round

In quake it follows automatically, it's not just that you die, but noobs can also take a red / good weapon / quad and just waste it... hey they can even give away a good weapon to the nmy team without putting up a fight.
Compare that to CS where a noob can maybe just block a teamie once in a while, and he might even get a frag onto someone cuz of the random aiming in CS....

Think you're thinking of public CS here. I've haven't been blocked in a mix/match/etc in years, if at all. I can honestly no remember once that happening. And your idea of a noob taking a pu or weapon and giving it to the other team can happen in CS as well. Take one round where the other team is eco and they manage to get a pick on another team's player and take his weapon. If they can use it effectively it can either cost the other team a lot of money or win them the round.

And seriously man mastering the recoil of the weapons in cs is just always moving your mouse in the same way after you started pressing fire.

No.
The recoil of weapons is different with each and every weapon in CS. Sure there are similarities and in general you aim for the head (or rather, the neck) but recoil changes not only on the weapon but depending on movement, amount of bullets, how you're being hit, stance etc. I think you're immediately thinking that everyone shoots in CS by spraying and crouching. Far from

And omfg when I take out a knife I can walk faster this must mean movement is a part of the game? Where is the skill? I press this button I walk as fast as a turtle! While when I press this button I walk as fast as a snail.....

Actually, you can bunnyhop in CS but it's less a huge benefit. There's also 'crouch-running' ('russian walking' or however you want to call it) which is a fairly hard skill to master in itself and other small movements like mini crouches, crouch jumps, strafe jumping and if you're going to play other game modes (and this part is irrelevant), you also have surfing etc

Having an objective makes the game a LOT less dynamic (see the neok i-view). Because really man when I watch a cs game (and mind you I never really played it at all) the ingame sounds are shit on streams etc. Yet my prediction of what the nmy will do after like 5 rounds of watching (to learn the map) them play is perfect.

Well then simply, you're probably watching low teams. A fair deal can be predictable which is why you see people strafing into shots whilst they aim through walls but you'll still see a shit tons of different plays and strategies. It's not just CA with bombs...

1) you actually don't bring in any argument there why a noob is able to mess up your game in CS.

2) yes I am talking about publics in the post. (as I wrote above as well)

3) 'the recoil is diff for each weapon' so, still means that you just move the mouse in the same way (depending on the weapon). 'the recoil is different depending on your movement' hardly anyone in a high skilled game really moves while fireing, they all quickly stop whenever they press fire, sometimes ppl jump around a corner and fire and everyone gets all exited if the 10-30% chance he takes pays off.

4) all the movements actually come from the quake engine CS (the origional CS aka HL engine) was built on (I'm not 100% sure about 1.6), so all movement in CS is also there in quake except in quake it's not as limited as in CS, so why exactly would that argument make CS > Quake (in individual skill) it's not like anyone in Quake has really fully mastered the movement. Imo in CS it's less skilled because it's less usefull.

5) I only watched some finals of large tournament (with prize money of like 50k$ or more for the tournament). So ye they must be shit.

1) you actually don't bring in any argument there why a noob is able to mess up your game in CS.

Derp

2) yes I am talking about publics in the post. (as I wrote above as well)

Aderpa derp

3) 'the recoil is diff for each weapon' so, still means that you just move the mouse in the same way (depending on the weapon). 'the recoil is different depending on your movement' hardly anyone in a high skilled game really moves while fireing, they all quickly stop whenever they press fire, sometimes ppl jump around a corner and fire and everyone gets all exited if the 10-30% chance he takes pays off.

No you don't move ya mouse the same way for each gun :P
And people still move when shooting. Sure the most efficient way is to stop but at close range it's often a decent tradeoff to keep moving and shooting

4) all the movements actually come from the quake engine CS (the origional CS aka HL engine) was built on (I'm not 100% sure about 1.6), so all movement in CS is also there in quake except in quake it's not as limited as in CS, so why exactly would that argument make CS > Quake (in individual skill) it's not like anyone in Quake has really fully mastered the movement. Imo in CS it's less skilled because it's less usefull.

The only difference between CS and Quake movement wise is that you can use projectiles to...well, project yourself. In CS though you do other things like I've mentioned (doubletap crouch etc)

5) I only watched some finals of large tournament (with prize money of like 50k$ or more for the tournament). So ye they must be shit.

Well what match then? :P

5) a few I don't really remember who was playing who... I know I saw SK vs some usa team is there a team called CoL or smth? I thought it looked like that.
And I saw a NIP vs hmmm mTw or smth a really long time ago?
And like 1.5 years back I followed 2 cs tournaments from like quarter finals and up, but I dunno anymore who placed where exactly.

If it was an old SK vs CoL then tactics would have been fairly meh. Same for NiP-mtw. If it was a new CoL then who cares, it would have been shit

What does it tell ya that a meh match between SK and mTw last night had 10k viewers on hltv just because of one player standing-in? :p

that tells me that a lot more people can understand CS because it's a lot less hard to understand. Like I said in my posts above numerous times (have you actually read what I typed or do you just disagree to disagree??)
I mean I've already explained this and because of the explanation you start to whine that I'm wrong that CS is harder blabla, and then as an argument you bring in the point which I have shown to be true "by saying that CS is easier"?!!

Meh, I just found it interesting that having obviously proved you know jack schmit about pro CS and through your experience of public CS and 2 matches, you believe that there is more dynamics in TDM

I said that I also watched 2 tournaments from the quarter finals and up. That's 2* (4+2+1) = 14 matches in minimum I think they even had LB as well but they sticked mainly to the WB games if I remember correctly.
As these large tournaments actually streamed all games (props to the streamers). The tournies were in the states so I watched games at home till like 6 in the morning :)

But why is it suddenly that I lack knowledge of CS? Really the only thing that I didn't know is that the recoil differs more than it does in my memory of when I actually played a few games (on a stream you can't see the players hands!). On all other parts I corrected you about CS and Quake and explained further why I have these opinions.

You're just afraid to say I'm right :>

Afraid to admit you're right? I'm not defending either way. I just find it funny how your examples change everytime from "oh I'm just talking about public CS" to "I've watched 2 full tournaments" :)

so you admit not actually reading what I wrote?

My arguments never changed m8, I even said in a post that if it didn't seem like I was talking about public matches (which imo was clear) that I was sorry for not putting it in there explicitly. Other than that all posts of mine have been (imo) spot on about the differences between Quake and CS.

I haven't said anywhere how much I played the game / seen it be played. I've only said (aprox) which and how many (really) high skilled games I've seen to indicate that during those matches nothing interresting in the tactical sense of the game has happened.

And ye you're not defending either way but you wrote a post to indicate I'm wrong.... so my guess is that you disagree with me :p

Other than that all posts of mine have been (imo) spot on about the differences between Quake and CS.

First correct thing

doesn't change the fact that my opinion is based on how the games work.
It's like me saying: man it's shitty weather outside when it's raining and all the fields are turning muddy etc..... while you can say that it's lovely weather to take a nice mud bath.
Both opinions don't change the fact that it's raining.

its easier for newbs to be succesful at cs and continue it. No rewards for newbs in ql till they get good which could be years. cs you can get kills right away and be rewarded. Why do you think call of duty and those other type of cs games are so huge now? quick rewards.

you can play insta and get impressives. I do. ^^

in cs noobs throw flashes beneath your feet. you fail.

Agreed with the maps thing. There was a post on here a while back talking about how Starcraft takes in new maps fairly often. Starcraft is also probably the biggest game in the world as far as competition goes (South Korea).

Sure you can keep a minority of old maps but new maps bring in new people and new ideas. Sure you can find new tricks on old maps but when you bring in new maps they add another skill to the table, the skill of adapting. While adapting to situations ingame is nothing new, the adapting to a new map is something bigger and better. It also makes the game feel newer again.

SC changes maps every few months, and generally has a pool of about 7.

everytime I hear someone talk about a 7-map-pool in quake it usually results in "but that's too many maps to keep fresh on"

its not. 7 would be nice. xD

*goes to bookmark this post for the next whine he gets on this subject"

To be fair, Quake maps are probably a little harder to make than SC maps.

It's just 100 times easier to draw a 2D map for Starcraft than to create a 3D map for Quake.

it's just 100 times easier to play the same old shit again instead of making an effort to learn new maps

except when the new maps aren't worth learning/playing

Making competitive maps in SC is just as hard as it is for Quake, actually. KeSPA actually has a paid team of map developers.

people also get payed for easy jobs you know.

you can't deny that using the sc map editor is easy.

SC, yes. SC2, no.

1) I don't understand why playing another strong aim player is going to help cypher. I really think what cypher is missing is the the mental game that rapha or cooller has. Like what zero4 was to rapha

2) Remove Dm13 (boring map), remove dm6 (too one-sided). As for ztn, a classic doesnt mean anything. If you really want this to be a new era of quake, you can't rehash the same map that we've had since 97. Get rid of it too.

Play a stronger aimer like toxjq and you won't be able to muscle in on items since he is timing them also, and for once cypher is facing a real threat other than stermy/av3k with mental strats and very good aim. I think Toxjq can use his aim much better than stermy/strenx can too, which means that cypher has to out wit him most of the time.

If he was playing rapha, he would be getting out witted without knowing what he was doing wrong. He plays toxjq to outwit him and learn what rapha has already learned, how to play against aimers.

Toxjq on the other hand needs to polish up on his basic strats for quakelive, and then timing and prediction. Since Cypher is a master of these, its beneficial for him to play against cypher.

Plus Toxjq is playing really unpredictable so it's an interesting way to play against :P

NEW MAPS PLX

F1

But you can’t announce new maps 1 week before an event like Quakecon, that’s really bad of them and unprofessional.


:D!

I wouldn't mind getting some old maps to game just to play them sometimes with friends. Its boring to play same maps all the time.

I wouldn't mind seeing year or 2 of aerowalk in tournaments, maybe 1 of the most funny map to watch :D, atleast was in q3.

But after that year or 2. I think even t7 is getting old and would need 5 completely new maps.

totally agreed toxjc

picking up weapons again should only give ammo +1 (or up to the default ammo count) and not the full default ammo count.

together with this and also increasing respawndelay for certain weapons on the maps, the way the game is played might change, which i would find interesting.

edit:
changing the maximum ammo count could also help
i just totally agree with toxic saying that there is a lack of options

idsoftware should really try out more shit, its time to use the devpick servers for something useful.

Would like to see him competing again.

NEW MAPS!

Stop it with your aerowalk nostalgia damn it. You might have great memories on it so the idea of playing on it again sounds fun but I doubt it will keep being fun after a while.

I'm for a complete new maps pool + ztn.

I don't think aerowalk is a good vq3 map at all. god tier in quakeworld and cpm but pretty lacklustre in vq3, goes to show how desperate the game is for maps though.

Are you gonna do some comeback too btw?

Already did!

Dude you were annoyingly good at one point, you should come back!

Edit: Dude you were annoyingly good at one point, you should come back! now you're just annoying.

ztn but no aerowalk

typical +back winz

yes, and I don't like dm13 because it favors +forward style !

idiot :/

you don't like dm13 because there is no rail there

That makes no sense, phrantic was my homemap on q4 and it had no rail either. I hate where the RL is and I hate the fact that this map requires no map control whatsoever, Items don't matter there, you just have to be sneaky and hit the right shots and that's because of a shitty map design in the first place.

It has nothing to do with rail.

I don't know u that much but u seem to me like an all rail/dodge player

and q4/=q3

Well, that's untrue.

I hate t4 too tbh and I wouldn't care much if ztn had no rail, eventho it would feel weird. :)

it might actually become fun without rail

new maps FFS

Aerowalk is a great map .... has nothing to do with nostalgia.
Its fun to play and fun to spec :)

I don't like speccing aerowalk, too repetitive.

seeing czm rape on hub was one of those rare moments which brought tears of joy to my eyes while speccing q3 games.. it will never be the same again *sob*

I agree, CZM just didn't give a fuck who you were or how good your aim was he'd roll your shit easy, he was my type of player.

He had perfect sense of 'which weapon to use' in combat. The ultimate fighter - like cypher is now, but way back in the day.

He didn't hit 60% rail or 40% lg or anything astonishing, but his change ups and dodging really fucked YOUR aim up so if you were fox or tox you still couldn't hit shit on him, he was the man.


CZM ROCKS!!!

lol?

czm aim was astonishing

CZM's aim was mostly flick shots and positional map aim. He wasn't like strenx or toxjq able to hitscan track you in any situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rx4zY8sFHc

Looks like hitscanning to me?

Just go watch a few demos from ~2005. His aim was on par with the best and he was calculative and positional in his playstyle. Him flickshotting doesn't make him not able to hitscan. If he would still be playing he'd be aiming like tox or strenx and more so considering the changes ql has brought to netcode/hitboxes/weapons.

Ye, czm hitting some mediocre players :P(mmm they move more like noobs, but: oh,well). That's skill man, aim skill.....

this is from quakecon, those are very good players

Well, my point is still valid. They move too bad, easy to hit target. Every average player now days will hit like that... not too hard to hit someone walking in straight line.

These are not good players, this is the FFA qualifier before they are allowed to duel.

Only lexer and serm are good in this FFA, and lexer isn't even good at team games, he has terrible sens for FFA, where you need to swivel around to fight multiple people. I've played serm before and his aim isn't even all that great.

CZM in this demo is not even so good. This is lan and his aim is alright... This is nothing compared to a toxjq or fox demo online smacking noobs around.

Seems like you have no idea how good czms aim was. I remember talking to tox while playing aero with him a couple of years ago saying that czm and jibo had the same aim as him, but i guess you'd know better :)

"and his aim is alright"

lol...you can't be serious

I'm serious, i'm not seeing how his aim is spectacular, he's basically using combinations to get frags, hes not just running over people with 30% plasma or 1 hit kills with shotgun, its basically dodging and attacking with rockets, and some MG cess. And he misses a fair amount of rails, he hits some good ones, buts its not 'crazy' as far as i'm concerned.

I mean if you are impressed by this, than you haven't seen much quake.

Tox + fox vs biber and some other demos are much better. Anything with mikes was great, etc etc etc.

This is basically czm vs some scrubs + lexer

you must be new or something because there is only really maybe 3 scrubs in that demo. and also czm hit 60 rail in that demo and almost 50 mg acc.

It's lan ping and they are moving really predictable and its FFA, they are not dodging him, he is just picking them off when they are fighting others, its not hard.

Did you ever see that fox pu demo in tdm? Basically him vs 4 other medium skilled tdm'ers on the other side, and he gets like 110 frags doing wildy insane shit.

That is the same or better than this demo, but its the competition that makes him look good.

If czm did what he showed in the demo to like fox/tox/linkje/gopher/mikes/prozac/panicore/reptile/zyz/stermy/ etc etc etc

Then I would have said he's godly.

ever watch when he played hub and destroyed everyone u just listed with precision RAPE.

Yes i have personally been destroyed by him as uNborn, when everyone was thinking he was hacking, but you see, it was his map knowledge that let him do such ridiculous things to people.

He knew exactly where to place his rocket to make you bounce to catch other rockets or rails, it wasn't exactly him out aiming you, it was him out playing you.

Take toxjq, he will hit rails or lg cells in the most ridiculous positions which should not be possible. He didn't set up any rocket -> rail shot or anything, its just him hitting everything.

CZM has tried these shots too, but without him setting up the shot first with rockets or waiting for you to be at the perfect angle to fire, he will miss.

There are nuances to aim, which most people forget to look at.

Oh God I miss the good 'ol GTV spam :D

That's a bad example. Hitting 35% mg in ffa isn't something to write home about.

Valid point considering it's ffa and dodging isn't that important but still, if you take a look at the demos from ESWC/QCON/CXG/CPL he was aiming like this most of the time vs fox, cooller, jibo, tox.

You are confusing aim combination with just pure aim. For information on what I consider to be aim just look through my old posts.

CZM is an aim combo'r, like Cypher and Av3k.

"You are confused, look trough my older posts"

I'd rather not.

I agree with you man ,Czm's aim was awesome ... up there with tox and strenx for sure.
His rail was out of this world against the very best in any situation.He didnt have strenx shaft
but his overall aim was way better.

no

Clueless :P

no (c) Vedic

no (c) any czm replay from 05-06.

no (c) no

your cheat aim is better we know.

let me explain :

czm had amazing flick vertical rail skills, i mean, AMAZING :D. He had the ability to be effective with the rail even in bad situations, i mean, no matter his position, he can still do monster dmgs with the rail :). His rail was very fast & accurate, and yep, he was definitely #1st world player on hub back in the day.
His other strength was his rocket, just like his rail, no matter his position, and no matter how fast you move, he will still hit you.
His shaft/mg were very situational, i mean, if you move like a bot and if you try to simply go in/out a battle with "large & linear" movements, then he will DOMINATE you, i mean, in these situations he hits EVERYTHING. But if you had cooller-like movements, then it's a completely different story. If your movements are very unpredictable/dodgy and if you're in front of him with stable shaft aim, then he will lose the battle.
If you have like med-low sens, and if you're a good dodger, if you're unpredictable, then you can beat him without that much difficulty @ 1on1 shaft battle or even 1on1 situations in general. Well, ofc it's still very hard to beat someone like czm, he was one of the best q3 player ever, but what i mean by "without that much difficulty" is that overall it's a bit easier to win a fair 1on1 situation vs czm than vs some player like cooller/toxjq/strenx etc. Also, cuz of his high sens and style of play, you can be almost sure that his movements will be a combination of "large & fast dodges" rather than "unpredictable & short dodges", when you're in front of him. So that's why it's probably better to play with med sens against him ---> if you dodge a lot it's a bit easier to adjust your aim, and if he moves with "large & fast dodges" then it's a bit easier to follow the target aswell.
But anyway, this sens stuff depends on many factors, and ofc depends a lot on the players and his current shape etc...
Btw, if you had to compare czm with nowadays top players, i would say that his style is pretty similar to k1llsen's one, except that he doesn't play with any accel that's why his mouse movements and movements in general are a bit smoother than k1llsen's (just smoother, not particularly more effective :))

And pls, stop trolling my aim, my aim is 100% natural & 100% insane leetness fatal1ty toxjq rampage.

Just Curious - Back when you flunked out of middle school to play CA, only to later realize you would have to cheat to achieve even marginal stats. Have you ever once thought that maybe this isn't the right path for you to dedicate your life too? Like maybe you've thought: "I should just stop for a change and give life a second chance" ?

says the nerd

thought so.

I'm sorry man... didn't know it was like that'....

jk kill yourself

what ?

:/

racist
(no homo)

Dm6 just needs to be tweaked more to work with Quake Live. Now because of the new QL spawn system, different weapon damages as well as the new standard of 10 minute timelimit it doesn't work so well.

But fix for Quake Live is simple imo.

What must be done is exchange red armor for orange armor.

A chart to explain:

green armor = 25
yellow armor = 50
orange armor = 75
red armor = 100

"make formula 1 more exciting again by limiting horsepower to 850 instead of 870" (random numbers)

nope, such a minor change in numbers won't change a fkn thing.

Good luck at your comeback!

Beautiful!

Made my day!! Thanks Nomadic and Liefje :)

and tox! :)

Very nice interview!

The talk of maps which are not currently available are simply just speculation.

:DD

exactly, hehe
ID has got everyone running scared lol.

Would love to see toxjq's comeback. Very nice interview!
NEW MAPS FTW!

map pool should be: t7, ztn, t9, hubt1, hubaero, dm13, new dm6, ospdm8, cpm1a, new map, new map

:)

...or just: new map, new map, new map, new map, new map, new map, new map, new map, new map, new map, new map

:D

"The talk of maps which are not currently available are simply just speculation."

haha :D

I saw some nice ZTN3 remake, it have extra stuff, new architecture , its like new map with extra walls and so on, but forgot name. We could change old ztn with it.

that remake there wasn't walls surounding grenate launcher and you could jump over small shit and fall down and die. it had some nice statues and other nice architecture.

finally we found the criteria of good quake map: it should have some nice statues and other nice architecture and also small shit over which you can jump and fall down and die.
I hope id is reading this and we'll see some perfect quake maps in near future.
EDIT: oh, and NEVER surround grenade launcher with walls!!! Biggest mapper's mistake ever!

it's very deep in a tatical way, e.g. you could throw a grenate into that area of walls and ultimatively trap a player in there with the bouncing grenate!

"Ultimative Grenate" © spyteman 2010

oh you are so dumb, you are realy dumb for real (c) Antoine Dodson

I described map how it looks, becose i guess there is tons of ztn remakes. It's not just item placement and "statues" , it's like 50% new map.

ooo statues

oh you are so dumb, you are realy dumb for real (c) Antoine Dodson

you could jump over small shit and fall down and die.

;DDDDDDDDD

good interview, I'd love to see him come back

nomadic: do you know walter cheats?
toxjq: omg gtfo already

Strenx right outside the Q'con venue

Reactions:

Cooller: "Sosi"

Rapha: "French food is bleh"

DaHang: "GTFO"

Av3k: "Ever heard of primary school #4, pretty boy?", "Nice shoes!"

Cypher: "You do the same shit all the time, don't you get bored?"

ZeRo4: "meh"

Guard: "Stop whining"

2GD: "Come here Strenx (evil grin)"

QLTV: "hahahahahahahahahah"

Best QL interview I've read.

I really like toxjq, both as a player and as a person. He always give intelligent and thoughtful answers to every question asked. It's obvious he's and intelligent guy. It's a welcomed change from guys like strenx and av3k.

av3k is very intelligent, but with bad attitude

Your nickname is unjustified, avek shows a very humble attitude most of the time (besides in regard to bitter esr trolls - who could blame him?)

So, I misjudged his intelligence? :P

I don't agree with 2v2 atall, it's boring and never produces a close game. Terrible to commentate and watch unless your "fanboys" are playing etc.

*hides*

I agree that the spectator value is probably lower than in duel/4v4, but it's really thrilling to play.

it might be fun to play, but its not that much to watch. The only reason I voted for it in the recent poll here was because it wasn't duel or "invite".

I like to play TDM/CTF but to me they aren't all that great to watch alot of. I can say though if there were new maps then it would be more fun, definitely.

2v2 is easier to follow then 4v4 and as toxjq said, it's easier to organize.

easier to organise because it's less players? come on man, people control 40man + wow raids, cs is 5v5, css is 5v5, cod4 is 5v5.

organising 4 people is not difficult :)

WoW raids are not a good example as you most likely have a lot of people available to sub in case someone is unavailable and such a replacement makes almost no change to the entire raid level.

On the other hand in a 4v4 tdm team you try to avoid as much as possible to change lineup because you want to play at the best level. Just take a look at any tdm cup (one night cup excluded), there was a lot of delay. It's no surprise to me, it suggests it's not as easy as you say to gather the same 4 people at the same time on a regular basis.

To sum it up, I agree 2v2 are not very likely going to produce close and exciting games. I disagree 4v4 would be as easy as 2v2 to organize.

" On the other hand in a 4v4 tdm team you try to avoid as much as possible to change lineup because you want to play at the best level. Just take a look at any tdm cup (one night cup excluded), there was a lot of delay. It's no surprise to me, it suggests it's not as easy as you say to gather the same 4 people at the same time on a regular basis. "


Fucking casuals....

never produces close games! then you must've not seen a lot of 2v2 games...

damn right!

blasphemy ! xD

The title of this article itself is a rallying cry, and from one of Quake's most respected as well.

"THERE HAS TO BE CHANGES"

No matter what people say bringin aero back is just plain stupid.

you guys talking about new maps and all that stuff.. and bringing hub is just going back and doing the same mistakes all over again.

1º - It's much easier to them to give us hub.. since its already made, so if you ask hub has a new map they will do that.

2º - It has been played and everyone knows how to play it .. it's has b oring has the other maps.

3º - It's one sided map too.. qlive is alot like toxjq said.. its mostly about timing/stake and a player like strenx/stermy etc. that relies alot in aim and has good timing will make it one sided game.. which makes it.. BORING.

It's a kinda of contradiction that you guys are always asking for new maps and hub at the same time.. like that in a way you are promoting new things for qlive and destroying it at the same time :<

as long as we're keeping old dumb maps like dm13 and dm6, why not have hub while we're at it.

go hab \o/

Your missing my point man.. after 6 months people will start whinning about hub.. like they do with the other maps, believe me.

If we want new maps.. because it's fun to start again with new tactics and new exciting games.. we must have NEW maps.. doesn't it makes sense?

Anyway, i've played hub and it was fun.. but it was just a rape fest map in quake3 .. and it will be a BIGGER rape fest in qlive.. since it's easier to play qlive.

there are some completely new maps in the patch aswell, such as focal point and battle forged.. i hope people give them a chance before going back to ztn dm6 hub rotation

the old maps are shit, only t4 is somewhat fun to spectate rest is just boring. (Same goes for old tdm and ctf maps)

Die!!! hub,ztn,dm6+7+14,dm13, ospdm5,cpm4, q3wcp9,14, basically all old ctf maps are pure shit.
Stay dead forever.

Calling w3 and cp1 'shit ctf maps' just shows how little you know about the mod.

Its hard to imagine a better ctf map than w3.

He lost any credibility when he said T4 was the only one fun to spectate anyway.

remove the rail and the map would be the best ever

Played q3 and cpm ctf enough to know its a +b zz camp mode, like most modes in quake. But the ctf layout is so stupid and designed to make it +b.
Typical ctf map: lets have base powerups, mega+ ra/ya + lg + rl + rail right next to the flag. One or two choke points mid map. And max 3 ways of attacking.

cp1 dual powerup and so easy to defend it should be banned. Even playing the map in superior mode (cpm) doesn't change the map.

w3 is there a map with more armour and hp at base? Its insane.
Haven't played it since 2005 on the shitty xs4all sv_fps 25 servers.

They should remove all armours and big healthpowerups from base, and make it more aggressive. And force cpm movement, current quakelive ctf is so slow its laughable. Who wants to see 10 overtimes before a team caps.

cp1 is perfectly playable with 4 attackers or even 5 attackers (speaking in terms of 5v5 ctf like these maps were played).

Per se it appears easy to defend indeed but the fact that it is so fast to cross + the spawn spots make it so you can put non stop pressure on the nmy base defs, keep the pressure up for a certain period and even the best defences in the game will inevitably crack.

w3 has a lot of armor and health but their placement make it extremely easy for nmy attackers to steal these resources if the defence is not spot on with their timing on both the MH and RA.

And even if they are, versus a good sync attack more often than not they still face the choice of either letting the flag leave base or giving up the resources thus either letting the nmy set up for a rebound cap or just risking the cap straight away.

Mass def is a possibility on the map but an extremely risky tactic since 1 good flag grab with haste will almost certainly result in a cap then.

Neither map has a real "choke point" as you so describe, Not even w3.

Really good interview, some valid points about maps.
If new maps were to be implemented, it would only serve as another excuse for lack of skill.

"You only win because this is a new map, come 1v1 me on hub hurr durr"

absolutely agree with toxjq!

if you play an opponent that has a higher ping than you, there are many shots that go right through

(hitboxes)... ,but most likely they will work better if both opponents have the same ping.

this is the reason why ID blames ALWAYS your connection/hardware and/or the connection/hardware of your opponent xD
n1 work ID

If you look at plasma gun, for an example, it has a lot of delay while playing online. You cannot use the plasma gun in the same way as you used it in OSP and CPMA; like a close range weapon.

goddamnit I want the pg back as a useful weapon. It WAS one of my favorite weapons.

have you seen the match toxjq vs agent and what he did with pg?

hardly useless.

Or that one frag from fox vs rapha?

Just played a bunch of osp matches yesterday and the PG is a way more useful weapon there (ofc, with nomip you can actually see where you aim at).

that may be, but it still isn't useless.

usefull for wallclimbing, spamming doorways. Usefull as a close range weapon (what its supposed to be)? Hell no. Usally pg owns lg hard in close range.

fox vs rapha was LAN

getting the old maps back doesnt mean they have to be played in competitions
they are part of quake history. its like deleting old maps because they are not in any mappool.

1. bring back classic maps
2. make new maps
3. make new maps
4. make new maps
5. ???
6. profit!

u should just let Death Match die gracefully and start playing StarCraft 2 instead.

Seriously, u will NEVER make it as a community when u are so divided and whiny : )

koOma is not amused

koOma is very amused now that StarCraft 2 is out : )

also: LOL_DM :D:D

sc2, in the current state, is overrated. It will only grow if bliznerds keep updating like they did with sc1.

LOL_CLUELESS :D

If you spent less time trolling, you might actually be somewhat decent at SC2... maybe.

LOL_HU4ROLLS?