superb!

cmon, say something funny

Why? I'm not sure that geek like u know how to laugh.

inb4 demon "professional" opinion

oO

lol drama :p

nice \o/

great job!

5vs5? WTF

edit: and courtyard? WTF!

courtyard after update - why not?

We need bibs. Cmon bjqrn0!

didn't you all quit ctf

haha

in before the 4v4 & 5v5 shitstorm.

it seems that they r tired :(

i would be too after getting out tdm'd in a 5v5 match

nobody has to prove 4v4 is better :>

Only 7 teams? :(

ye... :/

This is what happes when you only talk on forums how ctf is great, but don't play it at all.

Who me? I will prolly pay this cup :)

some team need a def? :)

lmao@5v5

*bump*

Good teams! gg.ru prolly will make a stream for russian ql lovers :D

people should play 7vs7 ctf, that would increase activity

Nice to see the forerunners of 5v5 CTF not show up at the last minute :-)

You just trolled us to the moon !

5v5 lol.

haha @ 5v5, fucking morons.

I'm gonna say 5v5 is cool only on JC...

I kinda have to agree with you

After playing it for 4 maps in this tourney I must say: Uncontrollable, random and impossible to try something (stack up) without a spawner fucking it up for you.

Only 'fun' thing is that you are constantly shooting, but I prefer the tactical game a bit more.

easier to stand with a rail shooting people when they're less, isnt it?

Cause that's what you do in ctf, right? rail people? ;>

So I make a statement on what I have experienced yesterday and you decided to make a comment on me as a player. Does it matter what I do? If it works then why not, especially on ctf2 the map that is basically rail only till you are in the enemy base.

So what happened with DP? Couldn't fit the 5 people needed for this awesome format? It's like only 1 more player, right?

yeah, we were 5 until the end but apparently some quiproquo between makie and headz happened earlier that day and with headz's wonderful english and makie's uncaring skills it happened they understood eachother wrong.

We are right now looking for one more player as we are only 6 right now since vertex went inactive again.

But who cares about that actually? :-).

Check out my profile if you like and you can see us practice a few maps with DP yesterday after the cup.

Don't pass up the opportunity to join this close-knit group of friends that have a fall out minutes before a game!

[DP] for life bros!

Headz doesn't fall out with people cos of his bad english, it's cos he's a cock

u couldnt stack up to 200 200 + medkit? what a shame!

I never did that, I am on impressive duty. I get a dollar per 40 impressives, but I haven't achieved that yet :( FUCK.

And lol why stack up now when you just get spawn raped by the opposing team, because there are just TOO FUCKING many of them in play. Only stacking you do now is on spawns in enemy territory. Quite amazing that dying due to Flag Carrier support awards you with a 50% chance to recover your fail in team play by spawning in enemy base area's now. Enjoy!

how about some real arguments?

Alright so I typed all my arguments out and when I wanted to post them, the page refreshed itself and deleted all the content. So I will type it in word and paste it here.

1. Maps: The current map pool is not suitable for a 5v5 format. The only maps playable are Stonekeeps and Japanese Castles. Where Stonekeeps is mostly avoided and removed when possible, because playing a new map feels unsafe. Especially high end teams will avoid Stonekeeps, because they feel more secure on maps they have been playing since 11 to 12 years.

4v4 offers more available maps for teams to feel safe on like c2, c7, c8, c10 and even cp5 (don’t know the name). And Japanese Castles and Stonekeeps are perfectly playable in a 4v4 format. I have played Japanese Castles, c2 and cp5 in ESH 5v5 and it is just chaotic as hell. Well except cp5 which is so easy to defend in team games, because of reporting incomings and how easy the defenders are positioned towards the attackers.

So this argument is mostly aimed at the available content, not the format itself. Does it then make it invalid? I don’t think so. I feel as soon as enough 5v5 playable maps are available, a shot at 5v5 can be worth it and a cup or league should adapt it for a season to see the potential. However in recent conditions, the switch to 5v5 was not really for the better.

2. Chasers: People wanted more action? Well they got it, in the form every CTF-er hates and despises since it started appearing, chasing. I have seen multiple people that were absolutely pro-5v5 that are now whining frequently about the amount of chasing happening in games. Few times I have encountered this whine in 4v4, but now it seems to increase more and more. The days of Quake 3 CTF chasing are returning it seems and I don’t like it.

I actually feel the need to chase essential as 2nd defender / mid player. Why? Because you can’t have 3 opponents running wild in your own base. You need to cut it down by at least 1 if you want your base def to be able to have a chance. In 4v4 I could easily let 2 opponents run in if I saw my base def stacked enough to handle 2 or at least damage the enemy flag runner enough to return it on my way back. Now I rather prevent people from entering my base and overrun the base defender. And since I don’t really have the time to count the amount of people constantly running in, because I die a lot of times, I usually choose to shoot and potentially chase the first attacker I see as soon as I enter mid.

I mean really you can’t seriously defend that chasing is not necessary in a 5v5 game. I dislike it, I really do, but it is effective and almost requires against a decent team that has the aim and brain to fuck up your defense. In 4v4 I felt like there was breathing room for me to decide if I wanted to support the attackers or defense.

3. Team play: This is one of the biggest failures I see now. Every team seems to have adapted the general strategy that is needed to play 5v5. 1 def 1 mid 3 attackers. Nothing wrong with that right? No, but how is it possible for teams to differentiate themselves from others now? You can’t do that anymore, because 3 attackers will fuck any diverse tactic up that you try to create.

What I mean by this is that the opponent who has 3 attackers available, will be able to put 1 of those into a chasing mode to counter any stacking or splitting of attackers WITHOUT the whole team getting punished for it. Where in 4v4 you are REQUIRED to synchronize attacks with the few attackers you have or have a third guy run in and support in a rush. Still when you rush with 3, a sneaky opponent is given more chance on taking your own flag.

5v5 requires no synchronization, especially on the maps that are being played. It will support teams that lack sense of team play or more individually aimed players, but it leaves out the magic that attackers like link1n or calipt for example did in 4v4 games by support of their team mates.

4. Teams: Going from 4v4 to 5v5 not only split up a large pile of the CTF community, but it also split the available teams up. Look at the ESH cup alone, it contains teams who might be similar, but they all recruited a guy from another team to be able to play the cup. I joined up with eo (bloodface) to fill their fifth spot so they could play, while I could have made another team myself if it required only 4 (calipt, sol4r and xtro) for example. I dislike getting a fifth that has no link to my team whatsoever and doesn’t really fit in the lineup.

But besides the ESH cup and my personal opinion, I think all the teams that prefer 5v5 would have also played in a 4v4 cup. I think more teams would have signed up to play and we would have seen a lot more better games in cups and leagues. It is just harder to field 5 and a lot of teams can agree on that, even if 1 player extra doesn’t seem much. It is 1 extra player to take into consideration and working your schedule around. Sure there are ‘nerds’ available every time of the week, but most of the players have lives next to Quake and a lot don’t prioritize a CTF match of 1 hour into their roster.

Also take into consideration that people quit, leave, change clans and stuff which makes it quite hard to create a solid 5v5 lineup. Other games show similar behavior, so it is not weird or unusual. Enemy Territory, Call of Duty, Counter-Strike games like that. Most teams have a different line up every few weeks or months. Anyway I think you would know where I am getting at.

5. My preference: I prefer 4v4 because of the arguments I stated above. The maps thing is a big factor for me, as I played 5v5 in Quake 3 and that was doable with the available maps. However in current conditions it is not anywhere near motivating to play on these small, bad designed or overplayed maps in a 5v5 format.

I found strategies to be thrown out the window to just use overused tactics that are related to the Quake 3 CTF Free For All tactics (as I call them) for easy convenience. It is hard to mix it up in a 5v5 format, because it will actually give you more disadvantage than advantage.

I will wrap it up now, it is already too long for an esreality reply :p I can type more about it, but I doubt a lot of people will read a lot more (or already read it now).

Stated my arguments at least!

TL;DR?

hmm ok as for map pool, i would say it's 50-50 for 4v4 and 5v5, it's just those ql maps that suck by design imo. take for example c7, walled off ra area + every home ra "attacker" does circle every 20s and acts almost like 2nd def. c8, same thing, ra def and flag def. at least in 5v5 you can pile up that extra pressure on enemy defense, whereas on c8 it's 2x 100 0 or maybe 1x 100 50 and 1x 100 0 vs 100 100 mk and 200 200, same for c7, you have 2 completely stacked guys in def that deny all flag running action. well, that's at least just my opinion. as for c2, nothing changed really, same shit at mid in 4v4 and 5v5.

p5 (shining forces) shouldn't have never been brought to ql cause it's crap2k, and p1.. well i like it much more in 5v5 format (except for when i don't get annoyed by random shit spawn system that QL uses) because it really does provide more action then 4v4.

chasers argument is same as for 4v4, whoever chases will chase in any mode, who doesn't - won't.

as for teamplay, well 4v4 does have more tactics available but imo in 5v5 you really have to do top notch job at your position if you want to get somewhere whereas in 4v4 seeing how it's more individual skill based you can have someone slacking (maybe not the right word) a bit but the other guy can basically solve the game himself which you cant do in 5v5.

teams argument - yeah, i agree with that.

anyway, my preference is 5v5, but i still like 4v4 and whatever mode gets stuck with people, i'll play it.

tl;dr? :)

cp5 is fucking awesome 4on4 what are you talking about :>

maybe 4v4 freezetag :D but i dont like it at all in ctf, probably cause i can't outaim the defs so i get raped. :D

Attackers having to face against stacked defenders is how CTF should work. Especially since items are on timers and you have to work down the stack of the defender, which requires you to not brainlessly keep running in and hoping you can get a flag out or he is out of position all the time.

Else there would be no difference between skill of attackers. Link1n is good in stacking and awaiting the right moment, while calipt can make something happen out of random moments. I like this difference, because it brings variety into the game and between teams.

The map thing, yes the designs suck, but also the size. CTF shouldn't have to be constantly action packed. That kind of play reduces the kind of tactical features that could be used by teams. Having 4v4 played out, it reduces the amount of encounters happening so that players can think about what they can do to get a flag out or to create a solid defence. I feel that in 5v5, you are just constantly fragging just to get somewhere. Kind of the same as TDM if you ask me, just with flags.

For 4v4: c2, c7, c8, c10, cp1, cp5, Stonekeeps are perfectly playable
For 5v5: c2 (BARELY), Stonekeeps and Japanese Castles will be the maps of choice in most cups and leagues.

So 7 perfectly playable maps against a doubtful 3. The other 4 just get too crowded and tactical play is out of the question.

And as for that one guy can slack in attack and the other can carry him, that's quite untrue. If sol4r sucked in the broken games, calipt had to really have an insane amount of luck to do it himself. They really had to sync to each other to make something happen. I think you know as well as anyone else (I saw you even said it once after a pickup game on cp1 -> running in 1 by 1 is easy to defend) that you need synced attacks to do damage to the defenders.

Getting 2 attackers in the enemy base from different positions to take the defender off guard is still a strategic point that not many teams master really well. In 5v5 this is just easier, because you basically just need 2 people running in to throw of the defender. 3 is usually overkill, but it helps dominanting the opponents base a little bit longer.

For the chasers part, chasing in 4v4 is actually a disadvantage, because you will lose pressure on the opponent if you do that. In 5v5 if one chases, you still have 2 attackers running in, which is enough to kill a defender and take a flag. That's the part I am getting at.

I would like to see a more realistic poll once about this, with opinions stated trough mIRC and not trough a simple 4 dot vote. I might try this once I have some time and get home to see how the current thoughts are from people about the situation after seeing and experiencing some games.

dp won this? : ))))

Played a couple of pickups yesterday for the first time in like a year. I'm getting a slight itch... any clans recruiting?