inb4 "needs dont care option"

I figured that if you didn't care you wouldn't vote to begin with :)

you thought correct!

The only bad thing of q3 was the excessive lg damage. Please don't return to q3 in qlive...

Woe to you, Oh Earth and Sea, for the Devil sends the
beast with wrath, because he knows the time is short...
Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the
beast for it is a human number, its number is Six hundred and sixty six.

10-9-8 and 60 ms reload

going for the 666, would boost it at the longer/mid range

Fine as it is
Should not be buffed

Try 666 first then if it's really required 777.

ehm what about 6-7-6 ???

so lg will become a mid-range weapon instead of close-to-mid-to-mid-high range.

could try 7 - 1 - 7 for more whine!

I would like it to be 7-7-7, none of the confusing range based damage yet still doing a fair amount of dps.

anything that isn't range based

I would like 7-7 with more knockback and stop at the longer range.

For the poll I voted 7-7-7

Range-based damage is just going to complicate reading how low your opponent is and make shaft a more inferior mid-range weapon than it should be on top of that. I'd prefer 7-7-7, but whatever id does, they should just keep it consistent at all ranges and focus on changing the LG's actual range (ie, can hit from 0 metres to X metres away)

7-6-6, or 7-7-7 and reduce the knockback a bit so it's not as easy to lock on

The LG needed to be nerfed when QL came out. But imo ID nerfed it too much (as many others think).

I would go for 6-6-6. The vary dmg is stupid and serve no purpose. One shouldn't be rewarded with higher damage for doing a strategically mistake by moving close to the enemy when using the LG. I would almost prefer 5-5-5 over 7-6-5 then.

As I said the vq3 8-8-8 dmg was too high but the QL shaft needs a slight buff. And 6-6-6 is a slight buff (even though 6+6+6 equals 7+6+5) because in every scenario including LG, it is used 95% of the times at maximum or mid range (X-6-5 --> X-6-6). This buff might not be much (which is the point daah) but with 20 shots per sec. it adds up, and I am sure that exactly this value serves the best for the balance.

The QL shouldn't be all about shaft like cpma, but the MG should still be inferior to the LG. Also at the LG's maximun range.

Edit; typo

"One shouldn't be rewarded with higher damage for doing a strategically mistake by moving close to the enemy when using the LG."
^this

Then + me ;)

distance-based damage sucks hard
7-7-7

765

For those wondering the distance required to qualify for each damage amount, I made an image displaying the distances. It's not 100% accurate, each one will only be off by a VERY small amount of units.

800x600, 100 FOV

As you can see, it's impractical to use LG at the distance where you qualify for seven damage. You're most likely better off using rockets, plasma, or shotgun (There are exceptions to that rule of course).

Bigger version can be found here.

766 or 666... 5 at long range it's just pathetic

7-7-7

I don't know why we need this poll again, though. This has been complained about since the start, and it's still here. QL is already taking a nose dive on players, so it doesn't matter anyway.

766 and increase if the game is still rocketallday

666 hell yeah \:D/

as mentioned before - anything not range based, either 666 (probably about right) or 777 is fine

I went for 777 based on the assumption that the dumb sliding effect when you're hit has been removed from q3.

ye its gone afaik

they tweaked the knockback up so much it still makes it difficult to dodge well aimed lg

hasn't really changed hit % too much though

which goes to show, the cripple wasn't that big of a factor in VQ3 hit %

how about we just remove the lg?

yeah, and add tits launcher!

"pancakes and kissing" launcher

with shurikens and lightning!! oh wait º_º

I bet John Romero is somewhere ctrl+v ctrl+p:ing all this as a good ideas

ctrl+c:ing even*

NO.
JUST NO.

how about we just remove vq3? PLAY MORE PROMODE!

shaft delay + cripple ala osp, thx. the gun dynamic was most game enriching and balanced in osp.

adding delay is never the solution, NEVER.

its a weapon dynamic... did you ever play osp? compare the way the shaft reacts there even on lan compared to the shaft in cpma vq3 - they are different weapons.

yes, i played osp for years and i repeat: adding a built-in lag it's not a reasonable solution.

well then, can you honestly say that the cpma vq3 shaft which is instant hit (point+click aim), which can be used in 100% of scenarios where the gun is in range, is more balanced? a gun which can substitute any other weapon almost all the time?

where-as, in osp, the gun could only be used in certain scenarios, hence creating greater balance and less bias upon aim gameplay. it's a different weapon dynamic.

everyone says the same thing when i bring this up "delay never fixes anything". but can you elaborate for me how it is better or superior? we have a plain example with the osp years which were the most rich in competition for q3 to support osp style shaft. the balance problem has only be evident since cpma and xerp came into effect. i want to believe something different but the evidence and my knowledge of duel suggests otherwise.. :-f

i'm not saying that shaft doesn't need to get balanced, but there are several other ways to accomplish that.
like you said, shaft it's a hitscan weapon, you can't change its base behaviour by adding lag otherwise you'll come up with an other weapon.
it's the same as you try to add lag also to mg, shotgun and rail... think about how awful is that.

lg for me is supposed to have lag. I hate the xerp'd one. Ruined gameplay totally.

LG has always had lag until CPMA took it out. If you didn't notice in the past, then you're fairly clueless (no offense). And only since then it has become a completely dominant weapon. :)

hello???
we're talking about a builtin lag, not a lag caused by ping.
and pls, stop saying bullshits. try playing cpma with 100 ping cg_truelightning 0 and let's see if "cpma has removed lag", unless cpma is capable of changing physics laws

they are also talking about built in lag.

where did I talk about ping? it's all about built-in lag obviously.

What?

What about CPM or CQ3, or even QL? Shaft isn't overly dominant in those modes, maybe because there is another way of doing things?

Also stop using that "this is when we saw the best competition" bullshit, doesn't anybody remember the final days of OSP VQ3 (probably not, since none of you fucking played it then, but I did.) the game wasn't "interesting" then, there were a handful of LANs and that's it, pretty much like it is now in CPMA?

Just because a bunch of idiots came back to find the community wasn't the same and the game felt different doesn't mean we should do stupid shit that forces players to only use a specific set of servers for the stable ping they receive there.

cpm the shaft works perfectly because of the movement, the game has completely different game play. cq3, well, cq3 recently got a bit fooked up again with that last update :-f but no-one plays it anyway. as far as it goes for the 'good old days' thing, well, back then the only balance argument or debate was that the railgun was a bit too strong, that was it. the only other thing was the mg strength in ctf, not even really in tdm.

I understand but my point is there's other ways of doing things. If the gameplay needs you to reintroduce bugs that make it more difficult for people geographically separated to play then the gameplay is bad. What we should do is think of a solution that everyone can agree to.

who the hell is talking about bugs?!

me

well then be random somewhere else :P

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1690773#pid1690773

and you think he is talking about bringing back a shit netcode by taking osp as an example for the lg delay?

wasn't the lg delay a consequence of a shit netcode?
do you think putting debilitating gimmicks on weapons is the way forward?

i call it balancing an overpowered boring weapon, and not adding gimmicks.

fair enough. I have a better idea tho.

instead of shooting bolts of lightning why not make it shoot out notes? the player would have to tap the correct notes on the keyboard to deliver a killer dancing move. the enemy would die of being totally served.

lol,
i just read this and can't stop rofling.
Imagine if they really did implement that and all the koreans and asians became pros (DDR :D)
how cool would quake look then lol

agree, and i think a slight delay should also be added to the railgun ;p

hey why not add random delays to all weapons?

that way the player will have to scramble optimal strategies on the fly in order to cover the best shot angles. just imagine the skill posibilities!

the word "random" negates your post and future credibility. goodbye, troll.

before you duck out of the conversation you must know random numbers are only random if you don't know the seed.

the player would be given a generated seed number by which he would caluclate weapon delays in real time. how cool would that be?

It could change based on items picked up too.

YA = changes by a factor of 3.5
RA = changes by a factor of -1

now that is a fantastic concept on so many levels. do I pick up that ya or do I save it after the rail shot? I can see it opening tons of new interesting tactical scenarios.

people need to understand that we should always strive to raise the skill level of the game, especially in its crucial elements such as timing items and handling weapon delays.

Too bad you're wrong. But that's ok, it's not like you've said anything correct at all in this thread.

yeah

Too bad those aren't random numbers.

of course they're not, but you can't start a discussion with a term like "pseudo-random". people will think you're trolling them.

Thanks for admitting you were wrong. That was pretty easy.

of course, I'm a reasonable person. I was only using the less technical terms so you don't get confused again.

It's funny that you would think that I'm the one confused, when you can't give me a definition of a random number. Then again your idiocy is on full display in this thread, as well as every other one which has been graced with your presence.

thanks for compelling arguments.

I rest my case.

your case was resting long before you knew it. :)

You going to keep saying retarded things or actually tell me what a random number is?

I was under the impression you knew that since you were expressing an opinion about it. are you trolling?

I'm proving a point. You have no idea what you're talking about, and are covering it up by claiming ignorance on my part. It's an oft used trick, but quite predictable and dull.

oh but au contraire, I'm always happy to educate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator

and since we can not generate true random numbers on a deterministic finite state machine(that is your PC) we use the next best thing called:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator

have fun reading !

You still haven't answered my question and defined a random number.

don't be so lazy now, read before replying or you will not be taken seriously.

Considering you don't know the difference between a finite state machine and a Turing machine, you're really not instilling any confidence in me. Please head directly to wherever you got your degree and demand your time back, it was a waste.

Also, stop dodging the question.

[Edit] Sorry that was condescending. For the sake of completeness, however, I should also inform you that if you don't know what making a FSM nondeterministic means (i.e., you don't know that randomness still wouldn't be involved), you should really find a new occupation.

what you wrote would make sense if the very question you keep asking like a parrot didn't reveal very thin knowledge. so, by "define a random number" do you mean:

A number generated for or part of a set exhibiting statistical randomness?
A random sequence obtained from a stochastic process?
An algorithmically random sequence in algorithmic information theory?
The output of a random number generator ?

so I can only conclude that your replies are but a weak attempt at trolling without any substance and therefor further discussion with you is a waste of my time.

Oh, so in other words this statement:

"before you duck out of the conversation you must know random numbers are only random if you don't know the seed."

is completely fucking wrong and meaningless? Good show, good show.

It's also funny how you think you're wasting your time, when you've not actually said anything factually correct in any of your posts. If you want I can enlighten you as to where you were wrong, but you'll have to be willing to devote a few years considering the degree of ineptitude and amount of arrogance involved.

please, for the sake of your future(altho very unlikely) college education, study the links I gave you before you embarrass yourself in a more important place than a silly game forum. same goes for the guy who plussed you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_seed

That's not a random number you ignorant fool. How many times does it have to be said before it gets through your thick skull? Learn something before trying to act smart, because you're just embarrassing yourself with this stupidity.

Please learn how to read, and stop spouting bullshit.

keep trolling without any substance. I'm listening.

I like how you believe me to be the one trolling, when you're the one who has no idea what he's talking about. Please stay in school, you're not as smart as you think you are.

feel like substantiating your claims good sir?

This entire time you have been trying to convince me you know what a random number is by stating the following:

1) "hey why not add random delays to all weapons?"

This is fine on the face of it, there are suitable definitions of random for which this is possible. (It's a retarded idea, however).

2) "before you duck out of the conversation you must know random numbers are only random if you don't know the seed."

This is completely senseless, because random numbers don't have a corresponding generating process. Generating random numbers is actually a fascinating field of study, which you might want to look into. Since randomness isn't well defined (hence why I asked you to define it, because there really isn't a definition of "random," and I wanted to see if you knew even that much about the topic), it generates all different questions into how to prove that your generator actually is random. Most people I work with (in cryptography) want a random number generator to not have a random bit predictor. That is, given a string of x bits out of the random number generator, one cannot guess the next bit with probability greater (or less than, as it's equivalent) one half.

3) "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_seed"

Here you show your ignorance by believing PRNGs are RNGs. Hence why I say these aren't random numbers, as they're obviously pseudorandom.

4) "of course they're not, but you can't start a discussion with a term like "pseudo-random". people will think you're trolling them."

Here you try to save face by claiming that I'm ignorant of the fact that these aren't random, when you've just been using incorrect terminology this whole time. I felt at this point you might know what you're talking about. You disabused me of that notion quite quickly.

5) " of course, I'm a reasonable person. I was only using the less technical terms so you don't get confused again."

Here you're just trolling.

6) "thanks for compelling arguments."

Still trolling.

7) "your case was resting long before you knew it. :)"

Wil you ever give an answer?

8) "I was under the impression you knew that since you were expressing an opinion about it. are you trolling?"

And you realize how little you know, or so I thought...

9) "oh but au contraire, I'm always happy to educate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator

and since we can not generate true random numbers on a deterministic finite state machine(that is your PC) we use the next best thing called:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator

have fun reading !"

Here you admit to knowing what a hardware RNG is, and a PRNG, but fail to make the connection that there is no fucking seed for a hardware RNG done right (tm). Troll much?

You also managed to call my computer a FSM. This is totally incorrect as to be laughable. A FSM can only recognize regular expressions (and not bastardized regular expressions you get in programming languages, real, honest to God regular expressions). Since my computer runs Perl, I think that that makes it a bit stronger than a regular expression matcher. As a matter of fact it is stronger! It's actually a decent physical realization of a RAM (random access machine) which is equivalent to a TM.(Turing machine).

At this point I realize your education consists of reading Wikipedia, and not well at that.

10) "don't be so lazy now, read before replying or you will not be taken seriously."

Ah yes, I'm the lazy one...

11) "what you wrote would make sense if the very question you keep asking like a parrot didn't reveal very thin knowledge. so, by "define a random number" do you mean:

A number generated for or part of a set exhibiting statistical randomness?
A random sequence obtained from a stochastic process?
An algorithmically random sequence in algorithmic information theory?
The output of a random number generator ?

so I can only conclude that your replies are but a weak attempt at trolling without any substance and therefor further discussion with you is a waste of my time."

And we finally get to the crux of the matter. There is no good definition of randomness, and great, you can quote Wikipedia. No sir, I was trying to demonstrate that your first statement was nonsensical because some RNGs don't have seeds. That's ok though, it went over your head.

12) "please, for the sake of your future(altho very unlikely) college education, study the links I gave you before you embarrass yourself in a more important place than a silly game forum. same goes for the guy who plussed you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_seed"

This link AGAIN? When will you learn that not all RNGs have a seed you dimwitted fool?

13) "keep trolling without any substance. I'm listening. "

Ah yes, I'm the troll..


In conclusion, grow up, you were wrong, get over it, stay in school.

I agree, you're not trolling. You just can't read.

I agree, you are trolling, AND you can't read.

look closer.

I've already torn every factual thing you've tried to say to pieces. From FSM to randomness, you know not of what you speak.

next time more comprehension - less quantity.

Nice troll. Stay in school.

raged.

How am I raged? You're a fool and I pointed out as much. You're the one crying that I don't know what I'm talking about when, clearly, I do. Nice try mental midget.

P.S. I stand by my original comment. Go back to every school you've ever attended and demand your time back. They failed you terribly.

qed

In conclusion we have shown that tourist is a retard. It is interesting to note that by the theorem of ESR, tourist will continue to try to defend his honor with retarded posts, but will ultimately be ineffective (proof is trivial).

wall of text disagrees.

Disagrees with what? If you actually read it, you'd see that every point you'd made up to that point was destroyed in a fairly humiliating manner. I conclude this post with a quote from another ESR troll:

"Your point is invalid."

so you are a troll after all. should've known for the lack of substance from the beginning.

AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA. The cognitive dissonance that is going on in your head is epic.

ye you're a troll.

Please point to one thing that I've said that's factually incorrect. This retard has just spouted off things that are completely wrong, and all I've done is completely invalidate everything he's said. Please explain how that makes me the troll.

Being a troll isn't about right or wrong, it's about fighting for no reason.

I'm not fighting for no reason. I'm fighting ignorance in all its forms. Tourist is spouting inaccuracies acting like he knows what he's talking about, when in fact he couldn't be more wrong. Just trying to explain why he's wrong. His constant in ability to accept how wrong he is just means i get more and more blunt with my assessment.

still, you're a troll.

NAH, just kidding :D*

(btw, seems like you take it too seriously :p)

Just trying to be a force of knowledge and right on ESR.

good luck then...

for a "force of knowledge" you're terribly bad at presenting evidence. that is the primary reason everyone thinks you're a troll.

Which is why I'm the only one here actually presenting evidence, while you just insist I'm a troll, troller. Please try arguing facts.

please notice that I'm the only one presenting credible sources in this discussion. you on the other hand, presented no such thing.

Apparently my reply was swallowed by the ESR Gods? Anyway....

Wikipedia is not, nor has it ever been, a credible source. Even so, if you would have read it it would agree with everything I've said. For randomness I suggest any elementary Cryptography book, as they'll usually give a pretty good definition (which wont' be anything close to yours). For CS Theory I recommend Martin, but there are some other good ones as well. You might actually learn that a FSM (or FSA as you may have also heard of it) is not a computer.

Seriously though, try to argue any one of my points, this ownage fest has been fun.

P.S. Bad troll is bad.

oh here we go again, the wikipedia argument . cheapest way trolls use to dodge out of actually presenting evidence. good show sir, you had me there for a minute.

Excuse me? Did you read what I wrote or are you just really dumb? I said, in spite of not being a legitimate source (which you would know had you actually gone to school), IT STILL AGREES WITH ME. In other words, go back and read whatever stupid links you've pasted to me. However I suggest the randomness page, and the FSM page if you insist on Wikipedia. Otherwise, grab a book that I mentioned.

Still waiting for you to challenge one of my points.

sure, your high point being that the generated numbers aren't true random numbers(which I never claimed they were) rather pseudorandom numbers. of course this was clear from the start to anyone who's ever had a highschool computer class. you for some reason failed to grasp it. so you see, there is no point, all you have is accusations and misinterpretation ie. trolling.

So basically you said something was random, but meant they were pseudorandom, and I'm the one who doesn't understand the difference? Sorry, sir, but you were wrong. Just admit it and move on.

P.S. Seriously check out the definition of an FSM again, because you're so pathetically wrong on that as well that I would be embarrassed for you if you ever made that mistake in real lief.

I use lay terms in a lay discussion. stop trolling.

If you were using lay terms, you wouldn't have started this with an idiotic statement about knowing the seed, because that's not a lay term. You're just mad that you can't bully me into a corner by fighting ANYTHING that I've said as being factually incorrect, and instead have to resort to calling me a troll, even though your first statement revealed you as the true troll in this discussion.

tl;dr prove I'm wrong or admit you were.

you are the wrong claimer, hence the burden of proof is on you. I guess they haven't taught you that concept yet. (as well as providing proper literature and some other things)

ESR eats all of my replies.

Actually, I did provide proof in the form of the links you presented. Try reading them, and then when you have understood them, you can apologize for being wrong.

Subjects you need to read on (use Wikipedia since you don't have any real books on the subject, nor an ability to go to a library):

Random
Pseudo-random
Turing Machine
Random Access Machine
Finite State Automata
Regular Language
Computability

If you have any trouble with them (which you undoubtedly will), you can ask me.

so instead of actually reading the literature I provided, or quoting your own(god forbid) you list some random topics instead. nice.

Sorry, I don't believe Wikipedia to be a good source. I've already stated my point on this, and could prove it to you by adding some text to any of the articles which call you a moron, but I really cba.

Secondly, I've already given you citations to books which are much more comprehensive and respected on the respective subjects I mentioned. Calling them random topics, is just another way you can avoid learning, because anyone here can see that they are completely germane to this discussion.

In conclusion:

"Randomness does not come from a PRNG, and my computer is a RAM not a FSM." (c) hoens.

so do you or do you not believe wikipedia? make up your mind already, quote proper literature or stop trolling.

Already explained all of this... l2r

you think you have. big difference.

Kind of like you think you know what you're talking about?

6-6-6

Worst choice of the best choices imo.

53

that was pretty random. good job.

Comment #153 @ 22:40 BST, 8 May 2009

Freaky

yeah I get that sometimes, gives me the creeps

zzzzzz didn't we already have this poll

25-53-43

She sounds hot.

i would say 7-7-7, simply because it gives one more weapon(asides from PG if well used and SG) that can compete with the overpowered rockets, as they are now.

0-1000-0

the 1000 dmg part should be on 1mm of the shaft, randomly for every shot.

ohh wait, thats just like OSP. My Bad.

stungun ftw.

7-6-5 as it is now. Because the shaft can be used alot smarter than with 6-6-6 or whatever, you need to think about what range you are and use your brain more overall. The shaft is still very strong, and like i have been saying all the time; it's about using right weapon in right situation.

ps. noctis is gay

it's a mid range weapon, and should be used as such
so why should it be weakest at mid/long range?
keeping damage at 7 for short range promotes bad usage of it, and at that point using SG or RL is much more effective

like I said, right weapon in right situation. An example. Starting with shaft very close to your opponent, your opponent switches to plasma or rl, and you just get further away from him....He wont hit you much with his rl and plasma, but you hit him ALOT with your shaft. There's alot of things like this you can do. You can't say you can't use the shaft in a smarter way with 7-6-5. If it will be 6-6-6 you can use your shaft like nothing again and won't have to think about a shit.

But oh well, i dont mind. The thing is that there's such a big gap between players.

that's why there should be an inbuilt lag for lg, so it isn't useable in every fucking situation.

i don't think adding lag, or introducing any other kind of bug, should be a solution for a problem
careful testing and analysis should be it, i'd like to see 7-7-7 like in RA3, but i'd settle for 6-6-6

bug?!
im not talking about a bug, im talking about a fixed lag thats always the same no matter the ping, as i have already said before in ix's column.
That way you wouldn't be able to use lg in 100% of situations and have the possibility to hit 100% in all of thos e situations, because in some, it would simply be impossible to track properly. In others it would be powerful. (thats what i call balanced)

Because no matter what damage a straight lg really does, you can still use it everytime no matter what the conditions are and be able to pull off a 100% lg.

And ranged based dmg adds unnecessary randomness to the lg since there is no indication to how much dmg you do at any point.

we could have different muzzleflash for different range, flowers for short range and butterflies for long range!!! and a pink beam!!!

I would only use pink shaft.

It would be 60 cm long and weigh 6 kilos. And the damage would be instagib.

Your inability to track should not be influenced by unnecessary handicaps in the game - that should be in the hands of your opponent dodging.

imho perfect tracking shouldn't be this easy in 100% of situations.

Also, how the hell are you supposed to "dodge" a hitscan weapon...

If you could move faster, it wouldn't be as big of an issue.

not trying to get another cpm or qw tho :P

Even if it's the right thing to do to balance the game?

Well in my opinion it isn't the right thing to balance vq3/ql as it would alter the gameplay fundamentally and thus making it a completely new game all together (which i'd rather not see happening).

Well it certainly doesn't work the way it is, and it clearly didn't work the way it was before. There comes a point where everyone needs to simply agree that in order to actually fix it, we need to fix it from the ground up while looking at the individual problems that plague the game to begin with.

Adding artificial lag causes you to be fighting an aspect of the game instead of the player - this is counter intuitive to a PVP game. Much the same way, and as I said in the thread talking about providing armor times, armor timing takes place outside the game in an unnatural way - this should also be changed to allow for more internal direct confrontation. Trying to merely band-aid a few weapon values or dynamics while ignoring the further issues that stem from the base of the game is just going to kill the game the way it did before.

"and it clearly didn't work the way it was before."

If you refer to how it was in osp... then thats news to me. Obviously it had the problem online that the lag was different from everyone because of ping differences but i don't see how it didn't work perfectly well on lan where everyone had the same conditions / the same amount of lag.

What about grenades, aren't you also fighting an aspect of the game while shooting a nade since its falling to the ground and not flying straight like a rocket? Or don't you have to lead with plasma because you have to take the time the cells take to get to your opponent into your prediction/calculation. I would also call that fighting the weapon more than the opponent (actually i'd say its the same thing with every weapon that isn't instant hit)

Also adding a delay would imo change the lg from being just an mg with more dmg output to something more interesting to use.

If you refer to how it was in osp... then thats news to me. Obviously it had the problem online that the lag was different from everyone because of ping differences but i don't see how it didn't work perfectly well on lan where everyone had the same conditions / the same amount of lag.

LG was not as hard as people try to make it seem in OSP - it's just that everybody was busy being a railwhore except cooller. I would be willing to wager my entire bank account on the exact same complaints about LG being overpowered in VQ3 if everyone were to somehow instantly switch back to OSP at this point.

What about grenades, aren't you also fighting an aspect of the game while shooting a nade since its falling to the ground and not flying straight like a rocket? Or don't you have to lead with plasma because you have to take the time the cells take to get to your opponent into your prediction/calculation. I would also call that fighting the weapon more than the opponent (actually i'd say its the same thing with every weapon that isn't instant hit)

The key to them is exactly that they aren't hitscan, as you have said. By attempting to add lag to a hitscan, you are unnaturally abusing the very foundation of what a hitscan is meant to be. I would support a modified LG to be projectile, however.

LG was not as hard as people try to make it seem in OSP - it's just that everybody was busy being a railwhore except cooller. I would be willing to wager my entire bank account on the exact same complaints about LG being overpowered in VQ3 if everyone were to somehow instantly switch back to OSP at this point.

I'd obviously go for 7-7-7 dmg with it to begin with. The difference was tho, it wasn't powerful at all in certain situations. Shafting high up or down somewhere was a lot harder to do with a delay on lg, so it was barely even used in those cases, whereas now it doesn't matter where or how you stand you can just point and click on him even if its 80° upwards or downwards is. Or in small tunnels when the other guy was coming at you with rockets you had a lot harder time when close up to keep your lg on him.

I would support a modified LG to be projectile, however.

Wouldn't that result in the same aiming method after your first shot reaches the max distance and the lg beam is at full length?

I'd obviously go for 7-7-7 dmg with it to begin with. The difference was tho, it wasn't powerful at all in certain situations. Shafting high up or down somewhere was a lot harder to do with a delay on lg, so it was barely even used in those cases, whereas now it doesn't matter where or how you stand you can just point and click on him even if its 80° upwards or downwards is. Or in small tunnels when the other guy was coming at you with rockets you had a lot harder time when close up to keep your lg on him.

I never had issues abusing it in OSP. When I started with Q3 way back when, I just couldn't manage to do very well with the rail, so I spent all my time focusing on LG. If you can hit 50% without lag, you can easily make up for it with lag. The issue itself is not that it should be hard to hit the opponent, but that the opponent should do the work to be hard to hit.

Wouldn't that result in the same aiming method after your first shot reaches the max distance and the lg beam is at full length?

Having lag on hitscan is just deceptive, and doesn't actually address the issue of hitscan being overpowered simply because it's hitscan. Having to learn to lead a little bit adds a small learning curve, but a not-quite-so-fast projectile with a lifetime on it could provide a better option. I'm not even saying that it would for sure, but I can't really think of any way to make an LG work the way it is without simply increasing the gameplay speed to make up for the current ability of players.

I don't want to change the speed of the game since i really like how it is now so thats not a way for me to balance lg. It might be for you tho if you prefer the faster game style.

Also players aren't really harder to hit if they just run in a straight line, even with a delayed lg, it is just harder for you to aim at him when he starts to dodge. So it is simply making dodging more effective which means its still in the players hand to not get hit. The delay on the shaft isn't supposed to lower your % in every situation, its supposed to make it less useful in some cases, in others it would still be just as easy to aim/hit with it.

tbh i don't think anything useful will come out of this discussion as we are both sticking to what we think is right :)

I don't want to change the speed of the game since i really like how it is now so thats not a way for me to balance lg. It might be for you tho if you prefer the faster game style.

I don't really have a preference for speed, so long as it makes sense for the game being played. With the skill level we are up to, and the potential of the weapons and gameplay, I just can't see a way to have a truly competition-oriented game with the current gameplay.

Also players aren't really harder to hit if they just run in a straight line, even with a delayed lg, it is just harder for you to aim at him when he starts to dodge. So it is simply making dodging more effective which means its still in the players hand to not get hit. The delay on the shaft isn't supposed to lower your % in every situation, its supposed to make it less useful in some cases, in others it would still be just as easy to aim/hit with it.

Delay has never caused me any problems before. Which situation do you have trouble using it with in OSP?

tbh i don't think anything useful will come out of this discussion as we are both sticking to what we think is right :)

Maybe not, and I don't even play the game now, but I don't think anyone will if it doesn't get talked about.

Delay has never caused me any problems before. Which situation do you have trouble using it with in OSP?

to get a perspective on what sorta delay i mean: 30-40ms osp online

if you get bounced around by someones rockets it can screw your lg aim up quite badly whereas with a straight lg i can manage to get a total lock on no matter how crazy i might be bouncing around :)

Or on ztn if im at rail and the other guy above jumping from sg to ra or gl or smth. It is really hard to get a lock on the enemy model fast there unless you expect him to make exactly that move, in cpma you flick to his model and stick your crosshair on him, not hard at all.

or if you watch an older osp demo pretty much every situation where ppl would rather use a different gun than lg, because it was more effective in that case, with a straight lg i can't think of a situation other than the opponent is out of range where you couldn't use lg up to its full effectiveness.

(someone else might be able to deliver better examples tho, i would have to play it again to report such cases more detailed)

Of course all of that could be invalid in case i am talking to the worlds best aimer atm :\

if you get bounced around by someones rockets it can screw your lg aim up quite badly whereas with a straight lg i can manage to get a total lock on no matter how crazy i might be bouncing around :)

Bounce will interrupt your LG a little, but once I had gotten used to it, I didn't have an issue. Granted, it's easier with a straight beam, but this is an artificial and very shallow form of skill, as opposed to putting the pressure on the opponent to master more skills.

Or on ztn if im at rail and the other guy above jumping from sg to ra or gl or smth. It is really hard to get a lock on the enemy model fast there unless you expect him to make exactly that move, in cpma you flick to his model and stick your crosshair on him, not hard at all.

I wouldn't like to take map-specific reasons into consideration, since those are already a disputed issue. New maps can solve a lot of problems with a lot of weapons to begin with.

or if you watch an older osp demo pretty much every situation where ppl would rather use a different gun than lg, because it was more effective in that case, with a straight lg i can't think of a situation other than the opponent is out of range where you couldn't use lg up to its full effectiveness.

This is because most people (aside from cooller) just weren't focusing on using LG and didn't have great aim. I'm sure that if enough people were playing to adapt to the lag, you'd have the same results that you do now.

Of course all of that could be invalid in case i am talking to the worlds best aimer atm :\

No, not quite, but I've based my game around LG since the very start due to my less-than-stellar RG. RG has improved since the start, but I was rather active in the xerp thread when everyone was complaining about how powerful LG was when I had been abusing it for years. If you look back at some of cooller's old demos, you'll see that he was way beyond everyone else with his LG use, and it paid off for him.

Cooller was still far from hitting 40-50% unless someone really came to him in a straight line. And his lg abuse was still far away from cpma standards nowadays. Even if he was already abusing it, he was still mostly using it in situations where it was easier to get a good lock on the opponent. You don't know about the other situations where he would have hit close to nothing because he simply didn't use lg in those... :)

Also i already mentioned before that i would still lower the dmg to 7.

Cooller was still far from hitting 40-50% unless someone really came to him in a straight line. And his lg abuse was still far away from cpma standards nowadays. Even if he was already abusing it, he was still mostly using it in situations where it was easier to get a good lock on the opponent. You don't know about the other situations where he would have hit close to nothing because he simply didn't use lg in those... :)

He was pulling 30-35% when that was considered a huge deal. I was able to pull much the same at that time, and I wasn't that good - I merely focused on LG. I think that if he had done the same, the trend would have exploded much earlier. I wouldn't expect 40-50% to take more than a week or two of practice in OSP as it is.

Of course, a lot of this is speculation, and I don't think we'll ever even end up getting to find out. =/

"Well it certainly doesn't work the way it is, and it clearly didn't work the way it was before. There comes a point where everyone needs to simply agree that in order to actually fix it, we need to fix it from the ground up while looking at the individual problems that plague the game to begin with."

Vedic, it doesn't appear to me that you have a very firm grasp on the gameplay dynamics in quake. It seems pretty strange that you completely ignore the balance as it was in osp, we had more competition games under osp per year than we do with cpma. Why exactly was it do you think there was such a _massive_ uproar when arQon got involved in the CPL committee and the chosen mod switched to cpma. To which arQon made a series of errors, the first most notable error being the spawn code.

Either way, shaft was a predictive weapon previously, how many times does this have to be repeated? it is now an instant hit weapon ~ two very different weapon dynamics. In osp the balance worked very well, as players could not abuse the gun in _every_ situation, i would have thought you to be one of the first to be for gameplay decisions that put more bias on brain play rather than aim play. Noctis has already given more than enough decent examples illustrating my point so i don't need to do that now. Point and Click gameplay is easier for everyone but much much much more boring for people competing, it makes the game more one-dimensional.

Vedic, it doesn't appear to me that you have a very firm grasp on the gameplay dynamics in quake. It seems pretty strange that you completely ignore the balance as it was in osp, we had more competition games under osp per year than we do with cpma.

The balance was only because the players weren't good enough. Again, the problem was just that nobody was TRYING to abuse the LG as everybody was railwhoring. The number of player and tournaments were already dying before CPMA came along, too. It appears to me that you either haven't been around long enough, or simply haven't been paying attention.

Either way, shaft was a predictive weapon previously, how many times does this have to be repeated?

No, it was hitscan before, just as it is now. The difference is just that nobody was any good with it. Ergo, the only reason the LG seemed to be so overpowered was because of the trend switch to it. I'm half expecting someone to go and get godly with PG next and these same whiners calling for it to be nerfed.

There's no doubt shaft is much easier with xerp, and that CPMA removed the delay from OSP which could be shown by truelightning 0.

If someone gets godly with the PG, I will love them for eternity.

I've been waiting for the day someone would try, and it was one of the things I was going to attempt to prepare for if I attended a big tournament. =D

It's all I used to use, was pretty handy with it too. I sucked at everything else though.

Even at around 20% accuracy, it's extremely dangerous. I could only imagine how foolish an LG-based strat would look against someone who could manage 30%. Best yet, PG is usually placed in easy to nab spots with plentiful ammo.

I'd say, in combat a decent PG aimer will hit 35% on average, which will get brought down to 20% by spam.

If someone upped that to 45-50% or so, it'd be foolish to get into any close-medium combat situation with anything else.

I've always felt I had an uncanny ability to start a round of TDM at a PG spawn, which usually meant having a YA too. I very much enjoyred this since PG tends to be my "fall back" gun for when I'm playing terrible.

I'd say, in combat a decent PG aimer will hit 35% on average, which will get brought down to 20% by spam.

Aye, I meant overall. I usually peak average 18-20% in a game, but I haven't focused enough to see what I pull in general combat.

If someone upped that to 45-50% or so, it'd be foolish to get into any close-medium combat situation with anything else.

I could only imagine what it would look like. D=

never seen a jibo game?!
edit: or even av3k!

Link to demo pulling that kind of accuracy? I've seen some lucky streams here and there, but never anyone who has pulled even so much as 30% overall with any sort of common use.

not talking about overall, but i have seen both of them pulling at least 50% in fights, and i remember that cause i kept thinking how sick that was. :)

even tho it's powerful, pg is not as reliable as other weapons. you can pull sick accuracies in some fights and you will miss every shot in others. unlike lg, where if you shoot 40-50% you can expect similar numbers in most situations.

Yeah, if they could pull it off more consistently they'd never lose!

More like Fooki.... amirite?

ye fooki as well, i just noticed it the most from av3k and jibo last year :)

I already heard a few tiny voices here and there whining about pg being to powerful.

Though those are of the one who try to use rail in close combat in ca...

Either way, shaft was a predictive weapon previously, how many times does this have to be repeated?

No, it was hitscan before, just as it is now. The difference is just that nobody was any good with it. Ergo, the only reason the LG seemed to be so overpowered was because of the trend switch to it. I'm half expecting someone to go and get godly with PG next and these same whiners calling for it to be nerfed.

----

what? which clouds do you reside in sir. delay = prediction, or is the rocket hitscan as well? the only possible answer i can summise to be your reasoning is that you think there is a predictive nature in everything, even instant weapons like the rail? i can't really conceive how you come upon this thought.. but that would be nitpicking as it's irrelevent in the context. "noone was ever good with it" - that's just highly ignorant...my lord..

what? which clouds do you reside in sir. delay = prediction, or is the rocket hitscan as well? the only possible answer i can summise to be your reasoning is that you think there is a predictive nature in everything, even instant weapons like the rail? i can't really conceive how you come upon this thought.. but that would be nitpicking as it's irrelevent in the context. "noone was ever good with it" - that's just highly ignorant...my lord..

Do yourself a favor - go play OSP for a few weeks and come back when you have decent LG in it. You're still tracing just the same patterns, so don't say that it takes leagues more skill to move your crosshair over a few millimeters.

OSP got the spawncode wrong and was bugged. Go compare it to BaseQ3 (Which is what CPMA VQ3 was at first)

"Adding artificial lag causes you to be fighting an aspect of the game instead of the player - this is counter intuitive to a PVP game."

massive point right here. it's also what keeps escaping these people constantly. they can't seem to grasp that putting in superficial unrelated crap is not adding more skill, it's hindering the gameplay.

oh I agree. It's so easy to programm an aimbot. Why the hell should people aim for themselves?

you fail at understanding yet again. should I draw it for you as usual or let you try to find the answer yourself?
(hint: it's in the post above)

no, you made up your personal view of what should be an aspect and what should not.

So you say aim should be in and delay of weapon aim and timers should not. That is your opinion, fine.
However, it is not based on general consensus, as can be seen in the many disagreeing posts.

of course it is a completely personal prefference. there is no law stating that aim should be an integral part of a pvp fps shooter.

I'm always for incorporating new game elements, fuck the norm. check out my suggestions here:
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1691888#pid1691888

well, I suppose i will have to write it out for you:

the aim part was a sarcastic statement.

fuck you becks for being sarcastic while I'm trying to have a serious educated discussion. please inform me in the future if you are going to use sarcasm so I can prepare in advance.

now if we're done acting like children, please go read my suggestions and tell me what you think about them:
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1691888#pid1691888

read them and i don't think you are nearly as funny as you are trying to be.

neither educated, because your general appraoch to discussions is to make up your mind about what you like and then declare everything else to be stupid and bad. Which then lets you completely ignore any arguments because you already "know" they are stupid.

funny? who said anything about funny? oh you mean german funny? sry wasn't aware.

also stop changing the subject.

Nice, when did you start hitting 100% LG? That's pretty awesome brah.

Unless you're using hyperbole since not even strenx... naw, naw I trust you on this one meng. Let's add "lags" and "delays" to stuff because that will make the game feel more fun to play.

ppl hit up to 70-80% sometimes in fights, just gets down to 40 because of the massive spam.

You shut down ranged based damage because of "unnecessary randomness" but wish to add lag to the LG? As someone who has to play with an 80+ ms shaft as it is, imo accurate prediction of where someone is about to move is already fairly random (at times, at least, and of course depending on the player). And what happens to people with 50+ ping who also get this "fixed lag"? It's primarily an internet game after all.

I think 7-6-5 is fine the way it is. 6-6-6 might work too, as I don't really like ranged based damage, but I hardly think it's overpowered the way it is.

i still aim with a straight shaft even on 60ms cause of the unlagged netcode, and the lag shouldnt be random, but fixed and always the same no matter what ping you got.

so you are saying, no matter what, lg is always the correct choice for close and mid range and you want to keep it like that?

QW-style rockets would be <3

"Starting with shaft very close to your opponent, your opponent switches to plasma or rl, and you just get further away from him....He wont hit you much with his rl and plasma, but you hit him ALOT with your shaft."

So, you're basically saying +backing with shaft is smart play. For me it's lame.
Also, sure, you would hit him A LOT, BUT, you would do only 5 dmg, which is kinda useless for a "tier 3" weap (rail/shaft/rox) like the lg.
You're saying "right weapon in right situation", and in your example, it's in close range, so, why not switching to rocket instead of +backing with shaft ?
And with 7-6-5, it's kinda impossible to rush with shaft, cuz it's to easy for your opponent to escape. It's even easier for him if he gets the rail.

cause everyone switches to rockets, and now he is smarter because he doesn't!

I stopped reading at "Quake Live sucks"

I stopped reading this thread when I saw your name, lover. <3<3<3<3

muahahaha :D

7-7-7

If you disagree with me, you're a tard.

6-6-6 as long as its this easy to hit, i never been a 'great' shafter but in QL i have a average of 41% and some have above 50% or something, thats insane.

aimbot + 200-200-200

i think wsw lg has built in lag. that shit was gay

not anymore.

And yeah, I agree.

so you like a straight, strong shaft more than a soft, wobbly one?

"OK"

Anything but range-based, fucking TF2-style crap.

no damage per range.
stable damage please.

If you're going to do ranged damage, we need a different sound indicator 5-low hit sound 6-mid hit sound 7-high pitch hit sound.

Agreed.

8-7-6 or 7-7-7 pls. Either way the lg needs to deal more dmg.
The rail did need to be toned down, but I feel the lg is too weak now. Sync pls buff.

7-7-7 lg would be perfect for CA since everyone starts at 200/100. Still waiting on armor/fall damage to be added.

let's not use CA as a starting point in gameplay balance.

666

777 starts to wander into "aim whored" territory.

...and no, don't buff the rail. Hellz no.

8-8-8 + xerp =/= 7-7-7 without xerp

Rail is a lil easier to hit @ QL, even if it's kinda random sometimes (hi netcode), soz 6-6-6 shaft wouldn't be enough to counter rail.

Q3 has always been all rail/shaft & rox, soz your "aim whore" stuff is kinda pointless. FPS game = aim. And still, control would be as much important as it is now.

"Q3 has always been all rail/shaft & rox"

My point exactly. This just enhances my point. lol

what do you mean ?

My "aim whore" stuff is not pointless. I don't want a game to move in the hitscan direction. Whether Q3 has "always" been about that or not. Do you?

I see 50% LG accuracies. Same goes for the rail (60-70%?!), and these are online matches. If the rail is too powerful, nerf it. I've come to HATE the weapon.

I think 666 should be used for the reasons given. I want emphasis on the RL, and less on the LG and RAIL. Or rather Prediction > Hitscan. Hell, I even think more emphasis should be put on plasma too.

So you I say:

Q3 has always been all rail/shaft & rox

And I say:

"777 starts to wander into "aim whored" territory." and "My point exactly."

I want a weaker LG because Quake 3 has been a rather aim-whored affair and I think the game would be better represented, if less emphasis was put on "hitscan" aim.

In theory, if all the weapons are equal, then it takes more skill to play the game. But that doesn't mean it's a better game.

What I don't get is why weapons like LG or rail are considered more "aim whore" than RL, as all three requires aim.

Splitting hairs. Call it hitscan whored. Whatever works.

since when do u use lg to counter rg?

since i try to get close to the railer (with +walk@mg then *TADAAA I'M THERE LOL PWNED")(or +forward@roxspamming+hide&seek).
ofc you can also engage a rail battle, but if you got control, why wouldn't you try to +forward him with shaft instead ? Way more fun & skilled :P (hi cooller).

and you can't do that whit any other weapon so therefor we must have a overpowered lg?

hf trying to rush a +back railer with your SG/PG/RL/GL/MG.

With SG = you get close, but he's still backing, soz you re still at least at mid range from him = useless (well, since the SG is overpowered, it might work, dunno)
With PG = too easy to dodge
With RL = With SG + too easy to dodge
With GL = LOL
With MG = LOL

I'm not for LG = ultimate weapon
I'm for LG = rail = rox = depends on the situation

I want variety in play styles (+rush LG should work as much as +back Rail and +trap Rox)

Actually in QL it's : +back Rail > *. You don't agree ? Watch Spermy play.

the good old days of ra3 with tl 0 being an absolute must for a shaftwhore was the shit, sadly it isnt like that anymore :D

lg should do less damage the closer you get ._.

ok.now go sleep tomorrow is new day

6-6-6

My LG is shit, so i don't put that much emphasis on it. I prefer lower damage because then it *slightly* evens the chances out when i face a shaft god (Hi Torz). :D

Seriously, shaft is still perfectly abuseable in QL, with more streamlined damage (picking the average damage value from the three distances) it will all be good. With better netcode (which i'm pretty sure is on it's way), 7-7-7 will be the bad old days all over again.

disown u

Who you gonna call?

GHOST BUSTERS!

ninjas :O

dr venkman: we are scientists

6-6-6 would be definitely good...maybe also 7-7-7 wouldnt be bad :D

7-7-7 Would be nice, although I doubt we will see any change at all.

I would prefer constant damage, whatever they think to be reasonable is up to them. But if they are introducing range based damage then rail is the obvious gun to nerf. It would discourage standism, which is what CA has become in QL.

How about rail 80-70-60 and lg 8-7-6?

How about rail takes off armor and/or health if you MISS it ;)

666 for LG!!!

7-7-7 too little of a difference in my opinion.
So 6-6-6 it is.

P.s. Assuming it is the same as CPMA netcode and/or xerp.. or whatever that is.

It seems the result of all polls and discussions I've seen so far is that a vast majority thinks lg section damage (or even any range based damage) is a bad concept. A lot of good arguments and valid points were made. But this debate could go on forever, if nothing changes. The big question is: Are we going to be heard?

If you do NOT think that id will listen to the players, show this by [+] ing me. :D

Of course they will listen, but they will come up with a bad solution and say "well, we can't please everybody" =P

I know for a fact that Syncerror has at least kept an eye on the poll.

they wont change lg...they already said that..i hope they are changing idea :D

or changing to a new game like q5 :>>>

cpma fans wants LG xerp spamming
sad :(

8-8-8 : 1.7% (3)

ye... all 3 of them

SWAP LG FOR STAKEGUN!!!

6-6-6 would be great.
its so easy to hit with lg anyway so it will be too overpowered with 7-7-7 i think.
The cpma vq3 lg destroyed q3 don't want the same thing with quake live

6-6-6 is best

lg is pretty easy to handle in ql so dont make it too powerfull

funny how everyone was moaning about xerp and cpma netcode because it had so little lag compared to osp, and now the same moaning again when someone suggests the opposite.
gg q3 community.

:D

666 ftw!

7-7-7 would be the most fair choice, as other weapons like the RL or PG just obliterate the LG when they are used as good as the LG.

I just wanted to state that i LIKED the osp shaft and i really LOVED the ra3 shaft. Of course it was flawed, but it was flawed the right way.
As a whole CPM always felt android and technical, mainly its shaft.

I liek QL shaft, but best was ra3 2nd is osp yeh?

(shut the fuck up and play)

yeah, you shut the fuck up and play.

yeah shut up
)=

excessive damage makes sense when using a LG too close to enemy ... same in the case of a shot Gun !

The way it is right now is perfect. Do not change it.

Welcome to two years later, enjoy your stay.

Holy shit ! Need to change my BIOS settings, coz still 2009 ;)
By the way...
Is the subject closed ? No ? So WTF, dude ?!

Please stop being so french, a few people here have managed to somewhat hide this part of their respective biographies and would rather keep it that way.

Your comment as well as the comment of Anhedonic is not in relation to the topic.
So, plz, stay on the topic and do not criticize others.
And the topic is :Lightning gun damage?
Not : why did he respond now after 2 years ?
Or : are all freach nationals arrogant ?
Or : (your next comment goes here)...
Cordialy.

y [+]?

First post on ESR?

You're fucked...