i agree with carmac. ql desperately needs a playerbase/scene where the e-sports scene can grow from, in q3 it was the tdm scene which was constantly getting more players, but after that died, the amount of new top duellers has steadily been dwindling. in ql there was no community playerbase where to draw players into the duel scene, only q3 oldies who carried on from q3. basicly the whole e-sports thing in ql has been handfed to the select few pros who seem to take it for granted, just based on the glorious history of quake

i know so many players who didnt play anything besides pub ca and ctf before #tdmpickup was formed, now some of them are active and trying to find clans. 20000 toxics couldnt save QL if they are inactive, what we need is to embrace the noobs and get them to step up from pubs into clan/competitive'ish gaming. with more players comes more spectators

you need to build from the bottom, not from the top

4SG is doing a great job of promoting QL in Australia. I suggest looking at what they're doing. Huge numbers of new duellers coming from CoD, TF2 etc., and they have their first big LAN coming up as well as raising money to send players overseas. There's gonna be 3 Australians at QuakeCon, and there's even two Quake tournaments at xLAN (the big New Zealand LAN) which hasn't run Quake in many years (if at all). There are definately people interested in the game, it just takes a few motivated people to get it running. Mick05 has done some amazing things for the Australian scene.

Yes I love what is happening in that part of the world, hope it will be a great success so you guys can compete with euro and usa :>

theres room for newcomers not like in some famouse places

notice one thin Australians quake comunity is way much better than europe or americas

I experienced some negative moments concerning what we need is to embrace the noobs and get them to step up from pubs into clan/competitive'ish gaming.. I am a noob in tdm i have to admit but only cus i didn't have premium, people ignored me in #tdmpickup lol, they couldn't be arsed to invite me to the game cus it was such a hassle.

Mentality amongst advanced players have to change, if they want to support other players and make a growing scene.

Not to vent my problems here but if every non premium player is treated this way (and i assume new players, who most likely don't have premiums as well) there wont be any growth...

e: It's not like that night ruined everything for me to play tdmpickups but it's not stimulating either, to have a feeling that it's kinda futile to enter irc without having premium...

Well I love helping noobs, and try to teach new players what I know. But when you have just spawned a server and people are joining, maybe 5 mins will pass until we find out we are missing one guy that needs invite.
After that you need to quit the server, and friend up before you can invite. It's very time consuming for something that is supposed to be a fast pickup. So mostly it is faster to just get a sub or one of the people that join hoping to get a sub position.

tbh ID is at fault again :<

edit: Actually I have a friend who loves to play tdm, but he is to poor to buy pro (lol)
The reason he is not playing tdm pickups is because he cant be assed with needing invites. So prem/pro is just another incentive to have people play other games like HoN or LoL.

I do see the cons of non-prem/pro players that join the channel. I experienced it myself but it's a shame that inviting proces takes the time it does right now..

And yeah, I cba to join the pickup channel cus people cba to friendup, invite and so on.. Even though i'd like to play tdm more. oh well

from the #tdmpickup rules

- If you don't have premium, make sure you have someone who can invite you to the server before adding

if people would actually do this, they would not get such negative reactions. if you dont have premium, np but then do your homework and dont waste everyones time.

from the #tdmpickup rules

- If you don't have premium, make sure you have someone who can invite you to the server before adding

Yeah, so a newcomer should already be befriended with a person who is capable of inviting people, regardless how new one is to the game, right.

if people would actually do this, they would not get such negative reactions. if you dont have premium, np but then do your homework and dont waste everyones time.

k, didn't know premium is required to play tdmpickups. So far for newcomers who want to try out the game on a further level than random public games without the need to purchase of a subscription without knowing they would want to continue the game concluding from pickups they would have played. nice reasoning... :/

Anyway I do not want to tell how things should be done in the channel but it's not very helpful now for new players.. just sayin'

what the fuck are you reading my post?

Yeah, so a newcomer should already be befriended with a person who is capable of inviting people, regardless how new one is to the game, right.

if you wanna play in a pickup and none of the already added players have you in their friends list, then ask them. same as you do it now, but before adding to the pickup

k, didn't know premium is required to play tdmpickups. So far for newcomers who want to try out the game on a further level than random public games without the need to purchase of a subscription without knowing they would want to continue the game concluding from pickups they would have played. nice reasoning... :/

huh??? i even stated "if you dont have premium, np" to make it very clear that it is fine to play in #tdmpickup without prem, you should simply try to not waste everyone time by asking for invites after the pickup already started. the community should be (and mostly is) happy about every newcomer but that does not mean that newcomers dont have to do their part.

Point taken, but how should i know who is going to play? I cba to add 100+ random people to friends beforehand and hope one of them it in the pickup.. Cus the !add time is like 10 seconds and then the pickup is full/about to start.

try to not waste everyone time by asking for invites after the pickup already started.

Don't get me wrong here, after i added 2 or 3 to friends they did not invite me the 3rd pickup to the server even though those guys were about to play the pickup. Lol

Do you even know how many dickheads in tdmpickup refuse to invite other ppl? The QL-community is full of ego dicks. And it aint going nowhere.

come on TurboLaffe, its not so hard to get invited.
if it so complicated for you, why not go premium?

I would like to purchase but unfortunately i don't have a creditcard. The other method i guess banking stuff was germany only?

afaik the time i looked (about half a year ago) i couldnt purchase it due to limited possibilities

:(

just stick to the channel, when ppl know you they will help.

if you want to play and like it why don't you just buy prem and support the game? its only $1.99 per month for god sake.

so there's another option other than having a creditcard (which i don't possess) or another function like paypal? (Cus the only other function I saw was something with German banking... And I'm not German)..

for god sake

L0L

i guess not for god sake.

i nuess got for nod sake

wirecard?

and what is that? :p

>Games are only as casual as the people that play make them.

And then there are games like LoL, that are made for casuals, no matter how long you will play it, it won't become less "casual" because it's designed that way in it's core.

Strip it of features that actually make game interesting and diverse, make it f2p (but don't be fooled, earn millions from tools who buy shit), pump millions into it, get it into IEM, acquire "esport" title.

Laughable.

.

So it has top players, yet the game itself offers less game variables resulting in much more boring gameplay compared to Dota/hon.

All the top players can zzzzzzzz it all they want, LoL is worst possible choice of dota genre gameplay wise, but it's ok, they have billions of dollars and many players, so it's serious business esport game now.

.

>but I'm sure that even a random snooker game would have more spectators than a hon match

ok

Thx to carmac and esl for doing this quick interview with us last night!

it's a sad news , but who can't agree with carmac ?

ql need more players and fans

I have played over 1,000 games of Quake Live. I like the damn game, but I have no reason to play it unless I have a friend who happens to be about as good as me. I switched to StarCraft II because there´s the ladder system where I measure my own progress, and where I am challenged every day. I felt so happy when I first advanced from Bronze to Silver. Yes, absolutely, that´s what competitive multiplayer games need

this

I would imagine a certain game hits the mainstream and gets accepted forever, like chess, bridge and a few other games have been. What kind of game? I have no idea, but that makes things interesting

This has already happened and that game is quake, ql in its current version (15 years don’t convince you?)

Well I dont want to sound like raythenoob, but where are we 10years from now when 50% or more of the current quakepopulation has children like fox.

Who exactly will take over?

ur point is very simplistic

u asume that everybody will stop playing when he gets older
u asume that quake has no new players
u asume that their will be no other quake

if it was like u say, would had been dead ages ago. I don't want to over analyze it (it doesn't need to imo), but the reason u mentioned is not sufficient to kill a game (at least not quake).

Well i've been here since the start, and will be here in 10 years I think :>

But I have seen all my irl friends leave one by one, we used to be +10 from my town that played and its down to one :DD

And I don't exactly see many young quakers anymore.
its all 19+

Can´t agree with you more.

During the prime of Quake3 TDM (2002-2004, my region in the southern sweden had atleast 6-10 active teams in a radius around 30-40 km.

In my town (5k population) we had atleast 20 players that played every week. We arranged lans for 15-40 ppl without any problems with one game only, quake.

But sadly, after the introduction of ADSL, everything vanished. No more LANS, only a few stayed within the community.

My tdm team recently got together to play at Dreamhack again, a great experience and a fun time. But i guess its over now, its not as fun as when you were 13 years old.

sorry for my english, very tired :<

good interview, although it's naturally biased towards qlive it still shows good points on why it did not get picked.

Anyways, it blows my mind that qlive still does not have a ladder system. czm also pointed out that qlive development took a wrong turn when they started to do small tweaks instead of having the main selling points developed first.

Maybe this interview can help push id in the right direction again, if they still think they are headed in the right direction and that we are dreamers, they better get their heads checked asap.

20 maps for premium that no one ever plays is fail
Freezetag - mod that 2% of people ever care about is a fail
Instagib ctf ranked servers is a fail.
Premium content separation is a fail.
Satisfying random idiots who miss one rail on youtube and spending lifetime to rework netcode is a fail.
Not building addiction (ladder, skill levels) is a fail.

Most importantly, zero fucking marketing since 100,000 people got turned off by post-beta queue is a mega fucking fail. Where are those people now? Did they ever tell them there's no queue??

“Games are only as casual as the people that play make them"

Considering that the question referred to League of Legends being easier to get into (thus more casual) than Quake.

It is, regrettably, the organizers and behind that companies and sponsors that decide if a game like LoL that is being categorized as 'casual' by a lot of gamers, gets granted a eSports status.

Within the game itself there is still skill-caps to consider. If WCG holds tournaments for games on mobile phones, virtual pool or whatever game that overall gamers would consider inferior regarding to skills (thus casual), then that game has gained eSports status. Even if the games are total bullshit and are less filled with skill factors than another game.

It is not the players who decide what that a game gets eSport status. It's the organizations, companies and sponsors behind it. World of Warcraft: Arena was considered an eSport, till they pulled the plug (Blizzard and MLG). If both organizations would reboot and set it up as an eSport again with money tournaments, enough teams will be there again to compete. There are MASS, mass players in WoW who would be ready to compete.

Therefor I think the statement Carmac makes is a bit flawed. League of Legends is a good example. If Riot Games didn't bother to put up that 100.000 dollars to basically grant its entry into eSports status, it would still be a 'casual' game. With a huge player base and community, but no eSports status. Keep in mind that by casual, also how Carmac meant it in his interview, is defined as easier to get into and a lower skill-cap compared to Quake (or other complex games like SC2).

t is not the players who decide what that a game gets eSport status.

Bullshit. If it would have been up to valve then 1.6 had died a long time ago but the com never really switched to source.

Wanna have some more examples? Paraworld, Brink etc.

Yeah bullshit? What if all big organizations dropped CS 1.6 and gave the same opportunity to CS:S with those money tournaments? What if sponsors said fuck you to the good teams sending them to CS 1.6 tournaments, but said they could go to LoL tournaments if they switched to it?

They control it. The gaming community is nothing more but modern followers, much like we are modern slaves to our lives. In the end it is organizations who decide what game will be the next major eSports title.

The gaming community is a marketing tool. They don't decide if it becomes an eSport. As long as there are enough players (a couple of thousand) and they are capable enough to buy stuff from companies that sell game related shit, a game can be decided on becoming an eSport.

And yeah you name Brink. Brink is shit, because it wasn't marketed properly and dropped even before it was released. I still saw some gaming organizations setting up teams for it though. Wonder if it has something to do with ESL setting up 15.000 euro of prize money for a Brink tournament.

But yeah does that prove we need a community to make an eSport? No, fuck no. It only proves that you need to have at least some sort of introduction of the game that appeals to the target audience. And well in FPS that is just fucking hard. Because FPS-es are hard. We have FPS games that already do it for us. We have CS 1.6, Quake, Unreal, Battlefield and Call of Duty. Did Brink bring something new? No.

What competitive games are there in RTS? Warcraft III (done for now) and Starcraft 2. Both in their genre, different play styles. So Starcraft 2 had an easy task and their established predecessor basically set it all up. Starcraft 2 tournaments with big prizes all over the place, while the vast majority of Pro players still claim Starcraft 1 to still be superior. A community decision? No, Blizzard and the companies surrounding creating eSports decided Starcraft 2 is now the standard of RTS. If you think otherwise, go join the group in the corner and suck on it.

Yeah bullshit? What if all big organizations dropped CS 1.6 and gave the same opportunity to CS:S with those money tournaments? What if sponsors said fuck you to the good teams sending them to CS 1.6 tournaments, but said they could go to LoL tournaments if they switched to it?

You don't get it, do you? Google cgs and get some infos ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_Gaming_Series
Yeah most of the american teams switched but not all of them. As we all know cgs was a huge desaster and the american scene never really recovered from it. I still remember the return of the eswc 05 winner, one of the best teams at that time, to 1.6. Complexity got crushed like a div3 tdm team vs reason.

Another example. Wcg was probably the most important tournament of the year in the past but look at their reputation now. Guess why they did come back to 1.6 in 06 after they had zero in 04 and source in 05. Picking cellphone games and guitar hero didn't help them either.

Where was the painkiller and quake4 scene after both of the tournaments (cpl and wsvg) vanished. Which com still existed after all the years?

The esl grew to the most important tournament in the west. How did they do that? They sticked to the right games and even so they never had the biggest prizemoney they had the most prestigioust tournaments. Wc3l, german 1.6 eps finals between alternate/mouz, IEM finals in cs and ql etc.

Guess which sponsor benifited the most over the time. Intel with esl or all the others with their failed tournaments ;)?

The gaming community is a marketing tool. They don't decide if it becomes an eSport. As long as there are enough players (a couple of thousand) and they are capable enough to buy stuff from companies that sell game related shit, a game can be decided on becoming an eSport.

That is just plain wrong ...

while the vast majority of Pro players still claim Starcraft 1 to still be superior

Yeah like there were any sc1 pro players outside of korea :D. For years the sc1 scene was dead in the west and wc3 the leading game. Guess why? Because after all it was a brilliant game (I never played it). Some supderduper sc1 nerds might not agree with me but they are the same guys who laughed at wc3 players and know get crushed by them.
Who cares about a bunch of ex sc1 players anyway?

I know that a lot of sc1 players dislike sc2 but compared to the 1.6/source example, sc2 is still a great game whereas source is a big pile of crap. qw is considered as the god of fps games but noone in their right mind would call q3 a bad game.

No, Blizzard and the companies surrounding creating eSports decided Starcraft 2 is now the standard of RTS.

And again wrong. Blizzard is doing great in korea :D. Oh wright sc:bw is still the nr.1 rts over there. You probably don't know much about paraworld but they tried the same and failed tho they invested a huge amount of money. Heck even brink tried it and they failed. I agree that promoting a game does do a lot but why should you blame blizzard for doing so? Promoting alone doesn't make a game an esportstitle.

It's kinda badly written but I hope you can understand my point :/

Yeah like there were any sc1 pro players outside of korea

For many years, there were. WCG was quite a big deal internationally, and only helped to fuel the fire of Korea's pro gaming model.



As for SC2, Blizzard only recently came to an agreement with KeSPA on broadcasting SC2. Now that the whole lawsuit thing is out of the way, and players won't have to worry about being branded a traitor for switching to SC2, you're going to see it even bigger than it already is with the GSL. I expect that it will at least rival SCBW.

Sort of ironic when I was discovering competitive starcraft, this was the first vod that i ever watched:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q88lWa3oPpM

After reading long article about how legendary and unbeatable boxer is, the first video i watch of him he loses to a white dude.

Support from developer
New, younger player-base needed
Aging existing player-base
Support for skill-gap for new players.

All the same stuff ESR has been saying for a long time now. It would be nice to see progress on these things.

we can't blame id

we can't blame esl

who we can blame is ourselves, for dreaming together

ql can become casual game with good ladder system, skill ranking and many step by step awards for every new player, so ql become accessable to every noob,

- tell them how to use weapons,
- tell them, that rail is shit in close range, and rocket is shit in longrange,
- that you should sometimes avoid enemy instead of just rushing in and think you are rambo,
- there is no medic there, use your armor and health carefully,
- learn them to chose situations when to be agressive and when to be not agressive (c) cooller
- tell them that rail and LG makes noise and the opponent can easily spot your camp
- learn how to use position advantage (from above e.g.),
- learn them how to time good and get the understanding of cycling the items through the map,
- learn them how to set motherfucker-traps (hello rapha)
- let them grind for every mode: start with ffa (noobs only!) and get some ranks and then get to ca, and after levelup tdm is unlocked, OMG DUDE I CAN PLAY TDM NOW!!!


you cant expect ppl are gonna learn all this things without any help, and they have no time to google and read all the guides in QL forum. implement this things into QL. step by step.
Make QL like 2011 and not like 1999, holy shitballs

- tell them that rail makes noise and the opponent can easily spot your camp

- tell them that rail and LG makes noise and the opponent can easily spot your camp

i copy pasted his post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s

not bad :D

I don't rly believe in talent, but i liked the "i like sum 41" reference, that one was great ;)

carmac knows what he is talking about.

I dunno man do younger kids even game on the PC? I mean I only got into PC gaming because it's console counterparts at the time had okay graphics, and 0 online play..and I now, 27, built a new computer capable of playing games, but will only use it for photoshop :( I do want to game, but yeah time is limited and I'd probably opt out for a 360 since it has titles never to see the light of day on PC :(. Pretty sure this is why Halo won the popularity contest, no kids game on the PC.

Imagine the community would not have developed OSP or CPMA. Where would we be now? I just think that in Quake, the community itself has had a deep impact on the development on the game (or had at least in q2, q3, q1 etc.) BUT with QL being how it is, the community itself cannot add content or give proposal that could make the game "ultimately" better. (Even if we have focus group, the influence is fairly limited)

You need people who understand the community and address the concerns that we have and then implement them into the game. But at the same time, you need a certain standard and make people to "play" with a certain netcode etc. see osp/cpma. QL tried this, and they failed. I think they had a good idea but they probably should have never went out of beta stage before they made sure that we had

- tons of maps
- ladder system
- proper netcode
- possibility for user generated content
- QL has the main portal fore new/streams/tutorials and what not

I do not even know how LoL looks like. I assume the game is what it sounds like.

Totally agree.

- tons of maps

this point always makes me wonder... sure potentially we would have an easier time to get new and better maps but the reality check tells me that ql actually introduced more maps that get some playtime than the last few years of q3

agree here,

ppl cry for new maps -> id gives new maps -> na we want to play dm6 and dm14, its great! -> ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

they give premium maps

yes, and im talking about premium/pro users!

Yeah cause skyward (q3cp23?) and shit TA maps are just at the top of everyone's must have list.

new maps are there, but nobody plays it, because they are new!

true

im actually pleased with the tdm map pool - a lot of new maps but i think the ctf list needs some new maps. duel is fine too (maybe 1-2 more that can be played competitively) One might argue that id focuses on quality and quantity but that rule does not always apply, does it?

Indeed Quake has very strong community, but really what it indicates is lack of support and vision from id software.
If id software put good effort and good people to control the development of Quake, it would be even much better game.
One problem with community is that it is directed more towards what people think they need rather then what they actually need. Another problem is that community doesn't know where to stop.
If there were just very few wise people with good taste and vision who directed Quake development, it would be much better than anything community-made.

Exactly. That is the problem - to actually find people know that the community needs without letting them have it all. I mean, I just read a thread where someone requested less self-damage for rocket jumping to improve the game. Or, some people requested vehicles? :)

The point being: You need people who have a good knowledge of what makes a game competitively good but at the same time, you have to be realistic and see what is possible with the resources you have. Since QL is embedded in the browser certain restrictions are given. It would probably have been easier to create a page that is connected to QL (like the bnet) instead of integrating QL as a whole. I think it overall created more problems than anticipated.

Oh well.. I'm not actively competing so I could care less but I will truly miss the QL tournaments.

I just read a thread where someone requested less self-damage for rocket jumping to improve the game. Or, some people requested vehicles?

Those are individuals, though - not a community. Just about everything that the community wants, it needs.

see my first sentence. it was merely an example to underline that the individual does not know what is best for the collective.

i started practicing farmville, it will be the next esport title.
mark my words.

Why is there no login message on Quakelive with cups or so like it is in sc2 or other games? Would be easy for id software to make a little screen there: For example Sunday 14:00 CET Zotac Cup. Check in here or watch stream here.. something like that.. :(

edit: but thx for reading it.. hope u enjoyed it a bit in this dark moment for quakelive :( .. i just can say that i can understand carmac and the esl..

Agree with this one.

An embedded stream would be nice too on the homepage. Appreciate QL has an esrb rating to uphold so maybe get someone who won't say "Shit" or "Fuck" constantly...

A must, is to at least link to the website that is hosting the tournament from the front page and then the website can promote the streams themselves

They just try to hard to be a friendly FPS game. All this legal bullshit makes it problematic from them to incorporate external streams etc. also they do not have control over its content etc. imagine someone were to play a linkin park song/swear or be borderline racist - could id get sued because of this? i have no idea but i think because it is not id's content, they are not inclined to put it on the page. "information asymmetry and conflict of interest apply here"

it should be a page from the community, for the community. but that will never happen.

I think that ID takes a look at the streamers and they see who makes a good job and who makes bullshit on it... or?

they do announce streams on twitter and facebook though. but imho that is not the best way to distribute such news. i mean, if you think about it, you reach more people with their portal. just add a news entry (that can only be seen to people that actually have logged in, in order to mitigate some legal risks.

Could set up guidelines for official, embedded streams and disclaimer for linked streams.

could be a problem.. i am drunk sometimes ;D

afaik I remember someone made a frag video and wanted sync to add it to the update playlist. he wouldn't do it, just because one song had a single "fuck" in it. too bad.

Remember: Quake is for everyone :-)

thanks for the example. I think you just underlined some of my points.

I remember that once SyncError said that he would like to add one frag movie to their recordings list but it used Wolfcam with blood enabled. They also have some limitations because of game certification. They probably use sparks instead of blood to have lower age limitation.

Is there even one dev working fulltime on QL? I doubt so :(
Watching how QL developed after its first release, I fear asking for ladders and other cool features is just wishful thinking. They might fix some bugs, add 1-2 decent maps each year and implement minor features (like killbeep). I hope I'll be proven wrong though.

imagine there would be MMO-champion for QL, it would be updated every month! great community manager we have there.

syncerror, you are not talking it, say us some plans, what do you want to do about quake? how can we (the community) help?

I agree, after ignoring that question for 2 years he should show balls now and tell us the truth.

In my opinion ID is doing to little work with quakelive. I bet a modding team could have raised the game ALOT them self in just two weeks if they had all the resources^^ Mostly I am thinking of public tdm though...

imo id

a) either must do something

b) or sell the game to someone that cares

c) or pay via cotracts talented developers from the comunity to make ql what it should be (there many out there, that can do much more than id did the last 2 years with very little cost)

Ql could be a huge success, but id is like someone who plays poker and is willing to lose no more than 10$ on a high stake table. Nothing succeeds with that attitude (not only ql), if you are not willing to go all in. You start a new business, you have to give it all in order to make it successful, not 1% of ur time and money.

I like direction of you ideas. ID could share some API for community developers and allow them posting their add-ons on the page. Then the best community rated and ID rated add-ons will be awarded. Some of them could be then merged into production version.

If i read that correctly ( = between the lines), one not too small part of the problem is that QL is too much hassle to set up at LAN.

Image they had used OSP the last 2 years, they would have the same amount (and more) Pro-Players/Temas competing without all the trouble of getting QL to work with easy coverage (just get a gtv out, caster/streamerrs can use that) etc.

For my part, the sooner we get rid of QL the better for Quake overall.

its nice how carmac trying to explain outright corruption. if from now on developers able to buy their game into the esports scene despite what qualitys the game have we have a dark future. obviously now its good for the quick buck as the publisher gives the prizepool and the organizer keeps the stream revenue.
i think what esports needs is an independent alliance who controls the scene regardless if quake will be played on the events or not, otherwise you can change the name of esports to "video game promotional events".
if an 1v1 fast-paced shooter needs to be replaced with some MOBA game for popularity reasons, so be it but as i heard LoL is like a dumbed down DOTA.
current situation with ESL is like some 3rd grade football team pays for fifa to make the fastest players wear extra weights, so others can catch up with them to take the ball...

go on esports, with this direction after 30 years everyone gonna laugh how things turned out, if anyone will remember the era

i think what esports needs is an independent alliance who controls the scene

AGP

im sorry but the did what exactly? im thinking of rather something like kespa in korea, controlling licenses, telling who can sponsor what, which game gonna be played etc.. and if u dont like how they represent the players will against the corporate steamroll pretty much feel free to fuck off... i never seen something like from AGP despite the few videos on youtube. is that organisation exist still? do they have a homepage at least lol?

irony detection failed

I'd rather have EVERY single quake colder than your mom than have something like kespa around.

if from now on developers able to buy their game into the esports scene despite what qualitys the game have we have a dark future.

that has been happening for years?

Way to invested in that interview moppz. To much of your opinions given. Next time just ask questions. This comment has only good intentions behind it btw

also I miss a picture of shirtless carmac with unzipped pants [-]

Google Search FTW: King Carmac

haha

What's wrong with knowing the interviewer actually cares about the questions and that it clearly matters to him? This isn't some bullshit mainstream television show where a dickhead in a suit takes an unnaturally neutral position.

i'm glad he cares, but for me an interview is about the person being interviewed not the interviewer.
tbh me going on about it now, might sound like i think he completely blew it or smth. but that’s rly not the case, just my opinion what would make future interviews better.

Dunno what you find objectionable. In no way was the interview about the interviewer. IMO the questions were exellent and ones that I wanted to hear answers to.

again, this seems to be blow way out of proportion. overall I found that the interview was good. But words like my, I’m, me in questions stand out to me. That and maybe that I expected (wanted) more of the backstory behind the decision, in the sense that u could find the majority of carmacs thoughts on these matters scattered over esreality/twitter and his past expressed opinions.

o rly? you probably like the last tdm interviews with czm huh? where he tried to anwser with less than one word.

i liked every interview czm i ever saw/read ye:)

There's some truth in what you say, when I started reading I was confused who was talking, Carmac or moppz, because both were answering the same question. :) I thought that there was a problem with formatting at first.

I am sorry that i am neutral if something is going on with quake.. so dont see it as a real interview.. see it as a talk with me and carmac about quakelive and the iem .. in my eyes its not good in such a dramatic situation to say what i feel about it. and i dont like the standard interviews with goven questions where nobody cares about.. if u dont like it i am very sorry.. maybe next time i dont say so much :)

think i got the jist of what u said now :)
first of moppz, I liked it:) My comments were about, as u said, that it was more of a conversation then an interview. And I guess that’s where some of us would disagree on what format we like more. I would like this kind of format if all the parties in the conversation were more relevant (quake vise relevant to me – so no offence :)) i.e. Carmac vs Syncerror, or Carmac and pro players, etc.

Most professional interviews on tv are biased too, just more subtle.

agreed

lets not forget this ql esl season was rather mediocre compared to season 4

- 7map pool with some questionable choices
- only the least amount was streamed via esl (levelup did all the work in that respect)
- no good casters (ty for robbing the quake community of our weekly 2gd dose)
- no interviews or presentation anywhere near the quality of season 4s euro championship

Just so you know, 2GD kinda offerd him self the spot in stunlock studios, they did not robb us :)

- 7map pool with some questionable choices

yep, was crap

- only the least amount was streamed via esl (levelup did all the work in that respect)

So what? Every game was streamed and some were even offered in different languages. Amazing job don't see the problem -.-

- no good casters

The only bad one was that stren-EX guy. Joe, calipt, czm and rapha were great ...
Btw. 2gd left esl for blc. They even helped him to get him a casting station at his home. Can't blame them.

- no interviews or presentation anywhere near the quality of season 4s euro championship

WTF? Eurosport?
http://www.youtube.com/user/IntelExtremeMasters
Every game got the same attention :/

Despite the poorly ql final this was the best job esl has ever done ...

your point?

I'm saying they abandoned ql over a year ago already

i disagree

good job mopper1zer!

^ this

Finally! Lets hope ql never recovers again.

Seriously, fuck off hater

A ladder system would be very nice. It would make we want to play QL again. These days I mainly play sc2 because of the great ladder system that game has.

If 2GD casted this, thats the only good thing about this tournament dissapearing.

I have and idea :

Carmac get a bus .. get 8 pros like cooller avek cypher rapha strenx stermy spartie and someone else and do an asian tour promoting quake with gaming shows and mini tourneys for the fans.

You guys would be at japanese national tv in a hurry.

Get all those asians hooked to quake and save it big time!

With a bit more of make up in stermy face you can even turn it into an asian gaming idol.

This is donald trump of quake idea!

LOL I actually really like this idea.

watch http://www.justin.tv/OneMoreGameTV
nice discuission with carmac and djwheat...

If we're going to make any progress, we need to treat Quake like it is - an older game. New players know it's an older game. If you were going into an older game, for the first time, what expectations would you have?

Instead of all the silly stuff on the QL main-page, 'hottest multiplayer fps blah blah', it should say things like, 'professionally played game' or whatever. It should let people know exactly what they're getting into, and help them get into it.

Quake, while being older, is also a different kind of game. It's not a singleplayer game, where you play it once a decade and it's also not an online game where you just screw around with dragons. It's a game where there is constant competition, and professional tournaments. That's what people (new people), need to understand.

So true.

Go to a game-site like IGN or gamefaqs, and there isn't even a genre for pro-games. That's the whole problem. That we do not create our own identity within gaming, that every gamer who comes in understands. People play the game, and they think, 'cool', and then they go back to whatever other 100 games there are to play. What separates Quake from other games, is that it is played professionally, and in fact, is almost exclusively played professionally.

The QL opening page should immediately distinguish that fact, and the site itself should be filled with demo's, streams, VOD's (showing top games, explaining different aspects of the game, as well as providing interviews with players or other members of the community), and everything else that belongs in a professionally competitive game. And that's aside from the many other things it should have, like ladders, and a system by which new players can effectively and enjoyably learn to play the game.

Treating QL like it's just another game, and using these tournaments for nothing but free-advertising, is exactly the problem.

^this

SO TRUE

It's interesting how Carmac puts it, the community lacks members who do articles, streams, and interviews, because of its age. It's not the only reason, however, and I believe that doing all that at ESR would still not be sufficient, because ESR is too isolated from other sites. Only old players visit it, so if you do something and post it here, there's no exposure to the community at large, nor to other gaming communities.

That brings me to the question I want to ask. Why did it happen that all streamers and people who deal with QL are doing it for free? I ask because of comparing: in Russia two most well-known streamers are attached to two popular gaming sites, and they get paid for streaming QL. If they get paid, then somebody wants them to stream QL. Cyberfight.ru could be biased, but goodgame.ru must be not, as far as I know its owner never even played quake.

I'm concerned not only with streamers, but with exposure. When you routinely announce streams on popular gaming sites, the game gets advertised. When you announce them only at ESR, it makes no difference.

Sometimes the community is not fair.. the whole www.derquaker.com team ist doing a great job for the german quake guys. I am also streaming a lot of games and cups (think of 30h dreamhack stream online time). but what happens? a lot of guys flame me because of some little stuff.. even some players are whining (noctis flames because of the RUNTERFALLNOOB :DD and one guy of the US TDM team kicked me of the server because they lost first map..) the community often flames me too ;) .. if it is a good critical discussion it is ok! but not talking shit all the time.. some guys dont know that u cant make money with quake.. it is our private freetime and just for the community i am trying to stream in english :(

i dont want to whine here.. but if u want to have more action just try something by yourseld and dont talk shit about the guys who are doing something.. they all are doing a great job in my opinon.. but like carmac says it.. we need more content.. more action.. more stuff.. we have to make the game interesting agaon for noobs.. support noobs.. play with them.. train them.. give them your cfg and not only make a 30:0 rape ..

but you're german !

what u mean? sorry for being talking in german.. but it is not easy to talk a lot in another language :)

cant say the funny things in english that my german viewers like so much ^^

note to self :
next time, use " now try to imagine being french " instead of " but you're german ( so it's ok to flame you ) ".

oO


ok if u think so...

ok, I know I tend to be pretty cryptic but I think you're really TOO german on that one.

This community is full of cunts only waiting to bash anyone who'd step up and move his ass.
The whine/flame is unavoidable.

Please don't tell me you still don't get my lololol.

"little stuff"
You were shit talking a team (possibly the americans) on the server after they lost the first map in some match. Thats where i told you to shut up since you probably didn't even realise what an asshole thing it was you did.

And that was far from the only time i saw you talk shit about players for no reason, so don't be such a hypocrite.

if tdm is such a mode that has no spec mute.. i didnt know that..

i really like your game and was surprised that u placed 4th on dh.. i will cheer u again and again but u dont like me.. its ok :)


edit: quake = serious business.. no place for fun ;)

it has spec mute, you're just not muted in warmup.

since when? I remember being annoyed by spec talk on a private tdm server not long ago.

well I haven't had it happen to me in months so I assumed it worked like in duel.

I wasn't looking to offend you, and sadly I don't really know what the Germans are doing, because I cannot read your language. Just commenting on the fact that ESR is an isolated site without an influx of newcomers. And I understand what you mean by the community being ungrateful, sometimes I wonder how streamers don't lose motivation to do anything, seeing some really dumb comments. Or downright offensive comments. You have to be really tough inside, I guess, to withstand them all.

As for playing with noobs, I think it does more damage than good. You can talk to them and help, but ultimately if somebody is a total newbie (like playing a first FPS game), there's little chance that they stay unless they find players equal to them. Sometimes I miss the single-player from q3, which could be helpful for such people. We have bots now, too, but in q3 it was done in a manner that was exciting, like you were fighting in the actual designated arenas, and you could put the difficulty level higher with each time you passed them all.

Funny how people are now asking "What we can do"...
when the reality is that it's like asking if you should close the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Streamers do Lose motivation... I've experienced this first hand. I used to jump at a chance to stream a game cause it was new, Exciting and overall Enjoyable!.

Obviously not so much now 'cause I just cba spending 5 or so hrs sat in front of a PC in the evening/weekend only to be the target of the dumb/offensive comments.

Hey don't get me wrong.. I'll still make an appearance every now and again when/if i'm in the mood and I have the time but the "when's the next game" mindset has definitely gone.

There's a real need for solidarity in the community right now - maybe it will surprise me and happen. I really hate to end on a negative but from my own experience, and from looking at the current state of the community, I very much doubt it will happen! :(

TL;DR? :))))))))

If you stream quake just so people give you a pat on the back you have other issues.

Yeah It's a good point, I mean really.... why should people say thanks to others for giving up their free time?

That's a great example of the QuakeLive community right there! :)

I pity you.

You really are the epitome of the community!
sadly, just in case you're wondering, that's not a good thing! :)

I don't really care, I'm not the one who's needing a pat on the back from random people.

LOL did you read my original post?
There's no part at all with "and they didn't say even say thanks!"...

I'm not here to gratify myself with "Wooow you're so wonderful" OR "zomg best stream evah!"

I'm just merely giving my opinion on a post 'cause it's My opinion, and yes opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.. who cares right.

blah blah blah... you suck .... blah blah blah ... dumb comment blah blah blah

Fail trolling - excellent examples of why the community as a whole is destined to fail.

Please before you consider replying, just note that.
1, I don't give a fuck
2, see 1
3, see 1
4, see 1
5, see 1

YES it needs 5 cause you're clearly a dumbass

KTHXGGBAIBAI! :)
i'm off to cry now cause no one said thanks for posting here QQ...

I actually found your streams good, you have a nice voice and your ctf euro draft coverage was great :D
"Ani are you ok? Are you ok Ani?" :DDD

I just hope you aren't too demotivated, everyone needs appreciation whether it be teachers, staff at ya local stores, a friend offering advice, even a streamer.. If they are doing a great job why shouldn't they be told?

People edit fragmovies and such for the exact same reasons, so I have no idea why this guy is hating...

Fantastic post, chap! :D ^^

You really put your thoughts across! Well done. :)

I don't believe that QL is gone from major tournaments forever yet, that's all, no reason for its funeral. It depends on id software now and whether they're willing to bury it or not yet, so we'll see in a while.

What you describe is sadly the state of the community on the whole, I saw dumb comments addressed to anybody who was doing something, except rare cases. And don't get me wrong, but I could never understand why people were ridiculing AGP here. The guy was trying to do something. The same about id software, there's only criticism towards it. I imagine that if a worker from id would happen to read some disparaging ESR thread, he'd lose motivation to try his best, too :)

That's Internet, they say it brings out the worst in people, and that's true. My guess is that most people have never been in such a situation, so they don't understand that commenting negatively on somebody's work is always personal.

That said, I'm sorry that this is the current state of affairs. But please know that some people do appreciate the work of streamers a lot.

So if we were going to have IGN ratings for pro-games, what would they be?

The normal ratings would still apply: sound, graphics, gameplay... in addition, there would be other ratings like: media (streams, GTV, vod's, demo's), new player facilities (to help new players learn the game and enjoy the game), competitive platforms (ladders, tournaments, etc.), and long-term developer support (over time, the game might change in one or more categories and it is only fair to change the ratings accordingly).

With that kind of critique, it would be abundantly clear how good a game is for professional play, both in the present, and as the game changes over time. For regular games, if it sucks when you first play, it will always suck. But for pro-games, that's not necessarily true. The game might have significant changes between its initial release and its later versions.

For QL, what rating would you give it? How could we improve the rating?

A game like Zelda 3ds shows how, the game can fundamentally remain identical, while the graphics and controls can improve. We could do something like that for Q3/QL, and improve every rating across the board.

why do you fucktards want quake to be a popular game? what difference does it make?

pros being able scrape by on winnings alone instead of not being able to ?

nah fuck that.

its a ruthless game, thats what i love about quake. shit idiots get handled by veterens. if you cant adapt quick enough, if you cant learn, you fall behind, the strong lead the weak.

you all want to please a bunch of shit cunts so the game can become more popular for what reason? so its more acceptable and not some backwater game held together by small community? does that make you feel better, does it make it more acceptable? or maybe so theres more tournaments to watch? - perhaps, but im happier with 3, because instead of watching ups and downs of players throughout the year, all the players are practicing at the same time for the SAME big events, you see the best players at their prime having to play above their abilities to win and you end up with the most phenomenal moments.

even though its hard for new players, thats the fucking point, it weeds out shitters. but that doesnt mean new players arent coming through the ranks, it just takes longer, it takes more resolve, more desire. the desire and resolve the current cream of the crop needed to get to where they are. think about that.

theres players that are coming through as you all blabber on about this crap if youd bother to take notice, look at burnned? that kid is what, 16 or something? theres plenty of cases on the pro scene, and from community experience as well, i see kids every day getting better and better, kids who i used to trash, now outsmart me and i cant help but smile.

in the end, ill still be playing quake while you idiots move on to the next flavor of the month because "quake isnt being supported by [insert tournament here]" - and you know what, i bet you all the people who are playing in these tournaments will be too.

SOO FUCKING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

While I don't want the game mechanics changed, quake live would benefit from a better tutorial and more training stages for noobs.

This would encourage them to stick with the game and help quake live grow. It's just not fun to go into a game as a noob and be owned by everyone, not to mention when teammates blame you for the loss because you're new.

game being noobie friendly and the game having a high learning curve doesn't need to mutually exclusive.

luckily as a quaker I can change rather easily between game types.

luckily as a quaker I can change rather easily between games.

its a ruthless game, thats what i love about quake. shit idiots get handled by veterens.

That is what quake is now for most people. Not what it had been like and not what it should be.

Quake Live is not a normal game, it depends on iD and its servers, which can be taken down if it ceases to be popular. In that case you won't be able to play it, no matter what your "game-philosophy" is!

i agree with this.

when i started to play in 2004 i was laughed and pissed on every day and game. what made me stick to the game that it wasnt the average noob-friendly shit where join a public server and can do mediocre if you playing for a few months ala cs.

however, what made me change my view when q4 came to play than both game completely died off and one day i just found myself sitting on a duel server at ztn pretty much the most played map waiting for 30-40 wins to have someone join just to serve him by 5-0 in the first 2 minutes and leave.... than wait another 30 mins.

considering this, in my eyes ql always was a huge success because anytime of the day i can get a game in 5 mins. and if the pussy leaves in 2 mins, i can get another one in 5mins.

all i want from this game is this. i dont wanna be a pro,i understood long time before i will never take a game off the likes of cooller or cypher. i hardly play more than 5-6 hours a week.
however almost none of the players who i learned to play from in 2004 plays nowadays, for various reasons. i think most of them older than 30 anyway and just not played for so long they have no time to come back.

so ppl have to understand, ql have to catch up with the industry and provide whatever the faggot kids require. be it ladder, achievment, skill matching, welcoming community support or whatever else, otherwise one day the likes of you and me will find ourselves sitting in an empty server at peak time, waiting 30 minutes for 2 mins of gameplay.

The death of Quake Live. Here it comes.

The End

There's a rumour floating around that QL will be present in the next season. I wonder if it's true :)

Dream more.
Tho, if there is some major development(and I mean MAJOR), there is a tiny chance..... yeah, dream more. :/

phukin phuk.