have my babies

Very, very nice :)

nice

cool! and really helpfull for people who are not familiar with how the system actually works out

what program did you use for this? cause it would be really really awesome if it marked the 4 possible spaws live, based on the cursor position. would it be possible to add something like this?

I'm using deep exploration, which is quite nice for visualization and format conversions. I don't know yet how much one can script in it.

awesome dude, some guy did this back in the day for QW and thats how i learned spawn controlling back then. i was wondering why nobody had done it for QL especially because the system is far more predictable.

aren't qw spawns full random?

i totally agree on the randomization factor evol brings up later - if it has to be predictable spawns or random, it should be random. jamerio's idea serves all purposes much better though.

yea :p

I learned qw spawn raping by watching sujoy play a dm2 match :D

brilliant!

Really cool and useful! Keep these coming, i would like to see this for dm13 :P

Also, in case you don't know, there is a Portuguese band with a song called memento mori :D

check it out>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgbyB2JtFBg

Thanks :D

I new the Swedish one.

also, incase you don't know, memento mori is a commonly used latin expression.

That's where I picked the name.

i thought so, wasn'`t being serious!

obvious fanboys, all of them: http://clanbase.ggl.com/claninfo.php?cid=24

\o/ shub^nigga \o/ blue \o/ dark \o/
:)

whats the point I dont have any sound
dont wanna sound like a Jamerio but whats the overall use of this

Please think for more than five seconds before posting.

The idea is to have a visualization that makes it easier to understand how to force spawns. Without audio that video makes little sense.

Nice work

Have a [+]

yep, very good.. ;)

nice+

lol hahhahahahha

edit: previously named omlas. very well.

great job!

Nice video! Very good job idd :)!

Is the spawnsystem any different in TDM?
I wonder how this works in TDM...i think everybody has had some really bad spawns there....like how it's possible to spawn in the RA room on grim dungeons even when all four players of the other team is in or atleast around it?

Perhaps it should be tweaked to spawn closer to teammates? or perhaps reduce the number of possible spawns from 4 to 2/3 or sth?

I didnt know anything about the spawnsystem in quake in general before watching this as I havent played q3 and i dont know if it was any different back then!

tdm spawn system tries to spread you furthest away from your teammates as possible. The idea is that you always have someone available to contest all the items, so the team in control cant just leave you spawning in one half of the map without worrying about timing any items. And the team out of control dont all get trapped repeatedly spawning in a corner with one shotgun between 4 of you.

impressive

Good work as usual.

I do have a question though, for you and other people on the topic of spawning:
Do you think the current system in place is fine as is?
Or should it be changed to reduce random factors which may very well determine an outcome of a match?(Although spawning in fixed locations might lead to knowing where your opponent spawns at any given time.)
Also, if you think randomization should be further eliminated, do you have any conceptual ideas regarding a new system?

I know that any changes to the game are highly unlikely at this point, plus I don't play duels at all so I don't really care, I've just always been curious about people's opinions on this one.

100% random is best.

100% random, minus 2 closest spawns to enemy. imo

I'm fairly new to duel (only around 500 duels played), but I think 100% random would be WAY better than the current system. Spawn raping would actually decrease, because there's less predictability. Also, not all kills are clean kills. Spawning in the room as the opponent that just killed you might get you a quick mg kill. Watching old cpma games on youtube, where it was 100% random, it seemed so much better.

spawn fragging would increase on aerowalk, if you look at some old OSP demos players would end up with higher scores round the 10 minute mark ( timelimit was 15 ) because it's so easy to hit the spawns from almost any position and half the time they spawn in front of you while you have lg out.

I don't think cpma vq3's spawn system was completely random.

Any blackjack or roulette player will tell you the concept of randomization is often anything but balanced and would literally determine duel games at a high level.

Give a player .5 seconds of invincibility+haste speed off the spawn, it will mean the most serious cases of spawn abuse (which amount to nothign more than bad design) are eradicated, while still allowing the concept to exist -by just making it harder)

The purpose of any game and gamer should be fairness, not exploiting bad design. All that happens is everyone does the same thing, it all evens out and the game looks worse for it cos you either have to follow suit or get screwed over.

the only solution (in a world where id are never gonna invest the time to fix it properly) is a cheap fix along the lines of what I suggested. That would instantly solve most of the problems and take a coder a matter of minutes.

Assuming a high frag count, it would cancel out.

ql = low frag count, not nearly enough spawn points, 10 minute timelimit :(
none of this is good for full random spawns, although i'd love to have that.

Time would be better spent actually implementing a better spawn system into the game IMO.



its doesn't take long to learn 10 spawns points and explain the concept that its going to pick a random one from the furthest 4 (if that is indeed the case). I would need to see the code to be 100%.

I'm also 50/50 on widening the knowledge base of how it "works" given the morality of most gamers these days are happy to win exploiting holes in the game and this is a result of bad design/coding, not skill.

[Fig1337]I would personally put in a cheap fix and give a freshly spawned player, .5 seconds on invincibility and .5 seconds of haste (but not firsing rate) speed.

That would pretty much eliminate a lot of the nasty spawn abuse while still allowing the concept to exist.

A lot of time in quake surviving a spawn abuse attack can be worse than death because you have so little armour items you're gonna waste time trying to stack up and quite often that can be futile.

So based on..

A) id needing a cheap and non time conusing fix.
B) Not removing the concept of spawn raping.
C) Putting more emphasis on real frags.
D) Imporving the spawn rape situation.

[Fig1337] seems a pretty good resolve.

3 sec is enough, and no haste...

I didn't say haste, I said haste speed.
And anything above a second could amount to abuse.
If you remove spawn abuse players will whine, if you leave it in players will whine, so the only solution is to make it harder to exploit.

Ever heard of spawn protection?

Sure, but spawn protection alone isn't enough because the opponent could just kill you a second or two later.

Spawned player needs an increase in speed to put a little more distance between him and opponent.

When everyone moves the same speed, postion is predictable.

The whole point is to randomise it and make it less appealing given that is what the code is trying to do i.e find the optimum position for fresh spawned player to have a chance of getting back that frag.

ur missing the point of killing ppl in quake duel...

u are supposed to get punished for deaths, the question is how much... imo speeding ur movements is too much, as u can actually gain advantage because of ur death... getting major items because ur faster is example of that

I'm not mising anything. You are. You just have a lower standard of semantics than I. You think its fine to gain cheap kills through buggy code. I don't. My values are somethign to aspire to, yours are not.if id wanted spawn kills like you say they would make it random, they make it distant based for a reason, they too believe you should have a chance. As does any sane person. They just can't execute it as well as they could.

.5 (did you see the DECIMAL POINT?)seconds of enhanced speed and invincibility off the spawn isn't going to result in a newly spawned opponent abusing anything. it will just result in them having the ability to avoid blatant abuse. Spawn kills will still be possible, but the most serious cases of abuse would be stopped with my method resulting in a fairer game.

Spawn kills are fine, spawn kills which require next to no skill to execute and are a result of sub standard code and level design/ placement are not acceptable to a game which is supposed to represent the pinnacle of 1v1 play.

Especially with a 10 minute timelimit, its important to cut out as much BS as possible.

I'm not mising anything. You are. You just have a lower standard of semantics than I.

lol, less ego more facts...

current spawn system was a try to make the game as much skill based as u can[good thing, if u deny it, ur just random moron like 90% of ESR users], sadly, it didnt work that well, because of architecture of some maps... see ztn or campgrounds for example... it did work quite good on t7, till last update when they tried to actually make it work with 10 yo maps :S

now, back to ur haste... even if ur hasted for a moment, its still enough to give u momentum needed for ur run... are u familar with id3tech movement, and bunnyhopping? u gain speed constantly , u move faster if u have bigger starting speed... haste would be... how to say it... ummmm... UNFAIR?



if ur going to die, make sure ur enemy stack is low enough he wont push for spawnkill.... i could agree on dmg protection, when ur respawning, but not as short as u mentioned, cause it would be pointless, and not too long, because of multiple ways of abusing it... 3 secs is enough to get a weapon to defend urself...

hey now, 90% of these ppl are not morons :'(

for me 90% of humand population is dumb, and should get locked up, just to protect them from harming themselves

You accuse me of misreading things yet in your initial post you say "3 sec is enough, and no haste... "

And you based your conclusions from that, its only when I pointed it out are you now trying to make out HALF A SECOND would still be enough because you don't want to admit you read it initially as 5 seconds to save face.

So you're telling me within the space of HALF A SECOND, bearing in mind 9/10 you would be spanwed out of sight and far away from the problem that you're going to get a massive boost and attack someone with your MG, bearing in mind the opponent can also avoid you?

its complete horseshit, you would only charge if you knew the opponent was weak as hell, in which case, the opponent is hardly likely to chase after or go for a spawn kill if he's that low and half a second is one decent strafe at best. Its not some relentless powerboost that newly spawned players are going to use as an offensive, if they would charge off the spawn with a MG, they would do it with or without this idea because its mostly suicide as the opponent will at least strip most of your energy away even if you get the kill, leaving you in a potentiall worse situation.

not talking about rushing with mg after spawn, whos semantics is on a higher level now? you obviously lack imagination to see bad sides of hasting players after spawn, but well, not every one can be as clever as me, im kinda used to it...

and yeah i missed . in ur initial post, was sure i said it... must have deleted it...

looks like cheating.

Not when it's shared to everybody. Like picmip etc.

shared with everybody?

so you expect every ql players to check esr?
so you excpect every ql player to check esr at the right time when your thread came up?
so you expect coverring 1 map is enough and fair?
so you don't think Spw points should be totaly random (or mb at the very least marked on the floor)?
so you expect people to have fun playing with total nerds going into calculating the propa on the spawn points and calculating items timings etc.

that 's just pathetic and totaly imbalanced. Don t expect new blood in this nerdiest game EVER.

i could go along with this list and add AT LEAST 200 more lines.

QL failed to be fun. (and fun is not incompatible with competitive gaming)

I don't know why you're so harsh. Quake may be for nerds and you may be right about no new players, but I don't see any harm in showing this video, or the next ones.

They are public, and easily accessible (here and on the official forum). It's exactly the same for console commands etc, where you lurk a bit, find a guide and apply it. You won't find it the first day, but as a noob you have so many things to learn before this that that's not too bad.

Great stuff!

Nice! But is that how it works? From the 31 May 2011 update:

"Relaxed spawn system in Duel such that it now looks at 50% of the furthest away spawn choices with a minimum of 3 choices, instead of 40% with a minimum of 2 choices -- reducing the predictability of where a player may re-spawn."

This suggest to me that the system first draws a line to each of the 9 spawn points and then measures its distance. Then it uses the farthest away spawn point as a base and picks any spawn point above 0.5*farthest_distance. If there are less than 3 there, it adds spawn points farthest away until it has three, but it can have 6 or 7 easily. Then the dice is rolled and one is picked.

I am open for other interpretations of the above quote. That is, if you think it is computed differently, please let me know how.

I think it means that in each case it discards the closest 50% of spawn points, unless the total number of spawn points is less than 6, in which case it keeps three of them.

well ztn has 9 spawn points so i think 4 possible spawns might be correct

Nice video idea and execution.

As far as the spawn discussion in the rest of the thread: personally I like spawn raping and think it shouldn't be eliminated. I think spawns should be random but that there should be more spawn points, so the killer can look at a bunch if he wants but there are so many that the odds are still pretty low the guy will spawn there over and over. If he does, tough shit it's mathematically not gonna happen much. I think it's a bit wack to allow the killer to in anyway affect where the other player spawns.

this is insane

farthest spawn? buahaha bs spawn system. many of you are familiar with my mega spawn rape: lg/rg combo at rail spawn. even up to 5-6 frags in a row

true

is almost like 50% for someone to spawn there if fraged at mega

You sound a little like klazart, the retired Starcraft commentator.

He also has nasal voice and broken English? :D

:D!

Ya, a very important factor of knowing where the opponent is knowing the spawns.

For example, if you wait at MH for them to spawn and they don't spawn at rail, then you check for the sounds up at GL whilst aiming at RL for that spawn. If you don't hear them at GL or see them at RL you know 95 percent they spawned in PG room which has only 3 exits which can be covered by holding position at GL area. Two exits can be covered at GL while you can GL spam MH.

Also I say 95 percent because you can spawn but sneak and move through a less used route to avoid the enemy to know exactly where you are.

Great work.

Random spawn system would be sweet (maybe with a -50% chances to spawn at the same spawn point where you just died). Long live the vQ3 spawnraping aero days!

I am not sure about that, because q3 had 15 timelimit and not 10

random spawns in ql might be too much (ql is already much more random than q3 ever was)

well done! now do all other duel maps :DD