ESR - In game response delay - Quake Live Forum

<< Comment #1 @ 14:57 CDT, 30 October 2011 >>

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kapca

vsync & pre-rendered frames?

Edited by kapca at 15:07 CDT, 30 October 2011

<< Comment #30 @ 09:21 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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malk_ - Reply to #1

Isnt "Maximum pre-rendered frames" a DirectX only setting?

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<< Comment #31 @ 09:23 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #30

not anymore iirc, but you made me insecure about this now (damn you:D). let me check..

<< Comment #32 @ 09:40 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #30

well you are right, which is kinda suck, thanks for the heads up anyway!

When they removed the "OGL_MaxFramesAllowed" registry value before the 2xx driver series (altering the registry was the only way since the CP settings only affected DirectX) , I asked this at nvidia, and the guy said it's gonna be merged with the CP settings, but the driver doesn't even contains this call anymore:(

so I guess all we have now is messing with OGL* _SWAPS and * _BUFFERS which is not much help tbh.

<< Comment #36 @ 10:08 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.120.162.151) - Reply to #32

from http://www.nhancer.com/ nhancer creator POV it does work for opengl too.

We have tested unreal3 with max prerender at 0 1 2 and 3 and i can tell you, you have more fps with max prerender at 2 or 3. Which means it actualy work.

<< Comment #38 @ 10:27 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #36

Using drivers before 2xx series it does work, but I knew that already, the problem is with the new drivers.

<< Comment #43 @ 14:19 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.120.162.151) - Reply to #38

shit :/

indeed i talked to him about this about 2 years ago but it might be outated.

<< Comment #35 @ 10:08 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.120.162.151) - Reply to #32

also this guy says http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/1255-63-gameplay ogl pre render work in xp but not 7

quote : Thanks, I'm gonna try these methods rightaway. What I found over the internet is that setting prerendering in nV drivers for WinXP works with both OpenGL and Direct3D games, while in Vista/7 it actually works only with OpenGL. Even though - it still doesn't solve the problem. Setting that option to 1 improves a lot, but not as expected. Setting it to 0 mostly crashes games when performance drops below 60fps.

<< Comment #39 @ 10:27 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #35

#38

<< Comment #44 @ 05:30 CDT, 1 November 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.120.37.191) - Reply to #32

# 42

"Hi,

I m interrested in more infos about this. Do you have the source about what you said and more infos concerning opengl and pre render etc.

Also do you think with ATI graphics card you can set the per render at 0 with opengl aplications? "

right upper corner of the post reply button :)

<< Comment #49 @ 17:38 CDT, 2 November 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.120.37.191) - Reply to #32

sources please, i know you are not telling shit, just want to know more.

<< Comment #51 @ 03:24 CDT, 3 November 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #49

Sorry, I don't understand. You would like to know more about what?

<< Comment #63 @ 14:59 CDT, 5 November 2011 >>

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Anonymous (90.44.47.48) - Reply to #51

np i figured it out myself, thx for the info you provided too : http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=...try1320940 :)

<< Comment #64 @ 15:11 CDT, 5 November 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #63

oh you wanted a deeper explanation, sorry I did not understand:( you could tell me next time:)

<< Comment #40 @ 10:42 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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Kyto - Reply to #1

Force prerendered frames to 0 rather than 1 though.

<< Comment #41 @ 10:53 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #40

well, it doesn't work anymore with the new drivers, but when it did work, I found 1 better for QL (while 0 was better in q3), I only have a 3.75GHz Core2Duo and I had fps drops with 0 in QL:(

edit: well it was only 1-2 fps but still, I want that 125 rock steady there:D

Edited by kapca at 10:56 CDT, 31 October 2011

<< Comment #2 @ 15:05 CDT, 30 October 2011 >>

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spinmove_

I have not played quakelive on any OS other than 7. I've not experienced the issues you're running into. What are your full system specs?

<< Comment #4 @ 16:19 CDT, 30 October 2011 >>

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Lan-Di - Reply to #2

Specs currently:

Windows 7 x64
Asus P5Q Pro Turbo
Intel core 2 quad Q9550
XFX GTX285 XXX Edition, 1024MB
2GB Corsair Dominator memory ( already tried 4GB )
Creative Fatal1ty champion series audio card

I didn't add it because its the same set up as i used for XP and it did run fine then.

Thanks!

<< Comment #3 @ 15:41 CDT, 30 October 2011 >>

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eh

I've always been on Windows XP cause its AWESOME!

some people got low standards..

also: try disabling aero
and what kapca said.

<< Comment #5 @ 16:44 CDT, 30 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #3

It's not low standards, XP is much better for gaming if dx10/dx11 is not required. (also better for many other things like extreme overclocking but that's an other story)

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<< Comment #8 @ 05:46 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #5

Define "much better". I agree, XP has advantages if your hardware or software isn't fully supported by 7, like many old games. But all quakes, including QL run just fine on 7. (Unless your system configuration is messed up).

Btw, if you want a lightweight, super fast and secure (compared to win) OS to run quake, use Linux.

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<< Comment #10 @ 06:12 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #8

giving such definition is not as "easy" task. It's a gaming site, so here is a gaming example:

Lets say you want to make a 2D side-scrolling game which is not demanding much from the hardware it's running on (just like how OS-es are not - and never should be - any challenge for the system running them). So from the development perspective it's much better to do the title on the Wii than on the Wii-U. It's the same thing with XP

The engineers were working on the XP for a decade, also all of the software developers (especially game developers) were working on XP finding bugs and workarounds, and improving the OS every time. It's all about efficiency, experience and knowledge-base, and has nothing to do with the compatibility or the drivers (there is a good ddk for the XP and for the win7 as well anyway).

I'm not saying win7 will not take over later in the future, but for now, it's can't even run games equal to the speed how XP is running them, let alone the higher DPC latencies and other issues) (well, to be fair here, heavy 4 way SLI configs are already running faster and better on win7 than XP)

Edited by kapca at 06:39 CDT, 31 October 2011

<< Comment #12 @ 06:23 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #10

Who cares if I can get 600fps or 500fps in quake? As for QL, as long as I have my 125fps I'm fine. Like I said, for an old pc windows xp might be the better choice, but a 2011 pc shouldn't have performance issues with dx9 games anyway. I don't see how DPC latencies are related to quake either. On the other hand my ping improved from 45 to 40ms after I made the XP->7 switch. Remember, OP wants to play QL on his win 7 box so any theoretical (or practical) advantages that XP has on other domains don't really matter.

<< Comment #14 @ 06:29 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #12

I can't see how quake come to this conversation again, I replied to this insult:

"some people got low standards.."

<< Comment #16 @ 06:47 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #14

Well I assumed that "AWESOME" was related to that certain purpose of running QL..
If you judge XP objectively, how can it be awesome. Qua technology its nothing but a fart compared to real OSes. Qua usability its horrible compared to modern desktop OSes. So yes, if you think XP is AWESOME you probably think that fiat panda is AWESOME too.

Regarding that network thing:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb878127.aspx

Now please post your magic tricks to improve ping on XP, I'm curious.

<< Comment #17 @ 06:55 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #16

Linking an article about TCP/IP stacks when QL uses UDP is all I needed for a facepalm:)

<< Comment #18 @ 07:08 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #17

I can't see how quake come to this conversation again

lol?

<< Comment #19 @ 07:19 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #18

my ping improved from 45 to 40ms after I made the XP->7 switch

You still don't understand do you? (Quake) games are using the UDP protocol and not TCP. What game were you talking about, your ping in online chess?

<< Comment #20 @ 07:47 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #19

You didn't want to relate this discussion to quake, so I went back to disprove your main argument:

The engineers were working on the XP for a decade, also all of the software developers (especially game developers) were working on XP finding bugs and workarounds, and improving the OS every time. It's all about efficiency, experience and knowledge-base, and has nothing to do with the compatibility or the drivers (there is a good ddk for the XP and for the win7 as well anyway).

Network implementation is superior in 7, that's an example and a fact.
Whether my ping improved because of a better network implementation, better drivers or QL being optimized for 7, I don't know. Tell me how I can get the same effect on XP, as I "don't know shit about network tweaking". And please tell me once more that QL uses UDP, I still didn't get it and repeating yourself makes you look like an expert.

<< Comment #21 @ 08:04 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #20

Regarding to the quake vs insult issue, please look up what "reply" means if you don't understand it's happening later in time!.

This is what you need to adjust in XP to get better (win7 like) TCP performance (which has nothing to do with actual latency in games except perhaps the display of a number after the ping word in some shitty game):
GolbalMaxTcpWindowSize, SackOpts, Tcp1323Opts, DefaultTTL, TcpWindowSize, EnablePMTUBHDetect, EnablePMTUDiscovery,

I'm indeed an expert to some extent since I built hundreds of networks, and if your ping is improved by moving to win7 "your system configuration is messed up" in XP imo.

Edited by kapca at 08:17 CDT, 31 October 2011

<< Comment #23 @ 08:33 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #21

If you are a network expert and believe that XP is the best OS on the planet, I don't think arguing with you makes much sense.

<< Comment #25 @ 08:54 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #23

I'm pretty far from believing that XP is the best OS on the planet, nor I stated such thing anywhere for sure.

<< Comment #27 @ 09:01 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #25

Then you should understand that XP is not awesome (unless awesome is your basic category and better OSes are classified as super-duper awesome, mega-awesome etc. ^^) and therefore don't feel insulted.

<< Comment #28 @ 09:18 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #27

No I don't think it's awesome at all, nor I feel personally insulted even if I still think you were trying to insult the OP with that sentence. But i do feel that XP is (currently) better than win7.

You see, when it comes to Windows, all I do is click on an icon what I want to use at the given moment. That's it! I boot up and click on icons I need. After that I don't even want to know if Windows exists anymore in the background, and XP is "STFU-ing" more efficiently than win7 atm.

Edited by kapca at 09:20 CDT, 31 October 2011

<< Comment #33 @ 09:41 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #28

For the few windows applications I need nowadays I run XP in a virtual machine. It does the job (and indeed, fits better than 7 in this case) but calling it awesome? That goes way too far imo. It's such a pain in the ass to use if you're used to a more convenient, intuitive user interface or even a console. If anyone thinks that's awesome he has low standards. That's not even an insult. ;)

Btw, if OP decides to state his opinion IN CAPITAL LETTERS I think a reaction is justified.

Edited by asyyy at 09:42 CDT, 31 October 2011

<< Comment #29 @ 09:18 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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retire - Reply to #27

Hi, XP is awesome because I'm using it. The end.

<< Comment #34 @ 09:43 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #29

weren't you gone or something

<< Comment #37 @ 10:15 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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retire - Reply to #34

nah, guess you got trolled

<< Comment #15 @ 06:36 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #12

I don't see how DPC latencies are related to quake either.
how many reasons do you need when it's used during gaming?

my ping improved from 45 to 40ms after I made the XP->7 switch.
so you don't know shit about network tweaking and because the default settings are better in win7 it's a better OS?

I still can't see how wanting something faster more bugfree and more efficient is "low standards"

Edited by kapca at 06:39 CDT, 31 October 2011

<< Comment #55 @ 13:14 CDT, 3 November 2011 >>

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dansen - Reply to #5

i believe fazz has commented on this once. you have to set windows 7 to 'performance', and siable aero and stuff like that. if you've set it up correctly, i believe the input lag is there in qlive-windowed mode, but disappears in fullscreen-mode

<< Comment #56 @ 13:31 CDT, 3 November 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #55

Yea, somebody just asked me on quakelive chat yesterday about what to do in win7 and I told him the same things, (like : set desktop to fastest and disable aero) but I messing around with win7 for quite a few years now and just can't get the same smooth feeling what I have in XP. It's almost there like ~95% but still not the same.

I think it's just while win7 is a better OS it still needs time to get more polised, it's quite young compared to XP. When XP was the same age it also had refresh/graphics problems.

I suspect there is something about the OPENGL implementation is different compared to XP, I don't have any proof about this, it's just a feeling because I can achive the same smoothness in D3D games.

<< Comment #6 @ 18:02 CDT, 30 October 2011 >>

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kapca

-dunno what mouse you are using, but make sure you are overclock your usb to 500-1000Hz if necessary

- I run prism in XP-SP3 compatibility mode because I had weird fps-drops in win7-x64 (you have to copy the files or re-download into %Appdata%\Roaming\id Software\), but I still don't know why, because afaik others don't had such problem.

<< Comment #9 @ 06:02 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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Lan-Di - Reply to #6

I'm using Logitech MX518 with setpoint 4.10.

Is prism the same as on your first post, prysm? I'm going to try this when i get home.

I don't know any other way besides firefox to turn off vsync and other filters for QL, but firefox doesn't have a vsync option in the nvidia settings.

<< Comment #11 @ 06:19 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #9

it doesn't matter how you name the profile, I just "accidentally typo" the name and CBA to rename it:). The executable linked to the profile is what matters not the profile name.

and this is what you need for the 500Hz usb poll on the win7: http://www.ngohq.com/home.php?page=dseo

Edited by kapca at 06:40 CDT, 31 October 2011

<< Comment #13 @ 06:27 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #9

http://www.qlprism.us/
you can disable vsync in QL without touching the video driver: seta r_swapInterval "0"
How many fps do you get? Tried running a different game / starting with a clean config?

<< Comment #69 @ 10:40 CDT, 7 September 2012 >>

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ischju - Reply to #9

for the love of god, never use logitech drivers :/

Edited by ischju at 10:40 CDT, 7 September 2012

<< Comment #7 @ 18:21 CDT, 30 October 2011 >>

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f0cus

I dual boot, 7 64 and xp pro. I doubt i'll ever stop using xp for quake. I dual monitor, too, and use a crt for quake, too

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<< Comment #22 @ 08:15 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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Omni - Reply to #7

ok

<< Comment #24 @ 08:44 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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jeffxx - Reply to #7

ok

<< Comment #71 @ 19:58 CDT, 8 September 2012 >>

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dogja - Reply to #7

ok

<< Comment #26 @ 08:55 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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thuNDa

does it even run in real fullscreen mode?

<< Comment #42 @ 14:19 CDT, 31 October 2011 >>

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Anonymous (87.106.252.91)

Hi,

I m interrested in more infos about this. Do you have the source about what you said and more infos concerning opengl and pre render etc.

Also do you think with ATI graphics card you can set the per render at 0 with opengl aplications?

<< Comment #45 @ 07:24 CDT, 1 November 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #42

Hi,

In ATI terms this thing were called "Flip queue size" but - just like with NVIDIA drivers- they are disabled/hardcoded this thing into the drivers. So the answer is (afaik): NO. Sorry I couldn't help:(

<< Comment #50 @ 03:08 CDT, 3 November 2011 >>

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illwill_ - Reply to #42

Yes you can change flip queue size, #45 doesn't know what he's talking about. However it can't be changed in the Catalyst Control Center. After you install AMD/ATI drivers you have to install a utility named ATI Tray Tools which will allow you to change flip queue size along with tons of other options not available in CCC.

Link to latest version at the bottom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Tray_Tools

<< Comment #52 @ 03:26 CDT, 3 November 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #50

I know you can change that, but that won't affect anything. You just pick an opengl game (q3 for example) and test it if you don't believe me.

Edited by kapca at 03:35 CDT, 3 November 2011

<< Comment #53 @ 03:41 CDT, 3 November 2011 >>

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illwill_ - Reply to #52

I have tested it in the Q3 engine and there is a noticeable difference

<< Comment #54 @ 03:57 CDT, 3 November 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #53

Well I don't have an ati card atm tbh, but I tested this with Tray Tools in this spring (march or april iirc) and affected absolutelly nothing.
So I asked a friend of mine, who is really into the ATI drivers (after my tests ofc) and he told me that you can't go below 2 anymore, it's a hardcoded limit in the drivers.

But I will test this again asap and will appologize if you right.

<< Comment #58 @ 12:46 CDT, 5 November 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.120.37.191) - Reply to #53

yeah the big difference is called placebo

i have an x1650 Pro ATI card and i can tell there is no diff

<< Comment #59 @ 13:36 CDT, 5 November 2011 >>

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illwill_ - Reply to #58

wrong. i could measure it with my ati 5850 and provide results if i cared enough, luckily you're an anonymous person from france so i don't

Edited by illwill_ at 13:39 CDT, 5 November 2011

<< Comment #62 @ 14:59 CDT, 5 November 2011 >>

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Anonymous (90.44.47.48) - Reply to #59

ok Mister Careless.

<< Comment #57 @ 12:46 CDT, 5 November 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.120.37.191) - Reply to #50

#45 is rarely wrong for now and he is right, you can set flip queue size only for directx games

<< Comment #60 @ 13:41 CDT, 5 November 2011 >>

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illwill_ - Reply to #57

that's misinformation. i've read that before too that it only affects directx but there is a large difference in opengl games from the default flip queue size of undefined to something such as 2 or lower.

<< Comment #61 @ 14:59 CDT, 5 November 2011 >>

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Anonymous (90.44.47.48) - Reply to #60

ok

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=...try1319372

<< Comment #46 @ 10:56 CDT, 1 November 2011 >>

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malk_

Just some random unrelated ideas. Some of this helped me to resolve lag and framedrop issues.

* check (disable) anti-virus(/malware/rootkit/etc) scanners
* check windows update. the "updates available to install" state gave me horrible lag until I installed them
* try the nvidia control panel settings not only for firefox.exe, but for plugin-container.exe too

Maybe it helps.

Edited by malk_ at 10:56 CDT, 1 November 2011

<< Comment #47 @ 15:12 CDT, 2 November 2011 >>

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Lan-Di

Thanks everyone for the tips and help.

For me, a few settings worked a little but it wasn't enough. I created a dual boot, XP - WIN7

Everything works perfect on XP !!

<< Comment #48 @ 16:03 CDT, 2 November 2011 >>

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kapca - Reply to #47

good choice.

Quaking in win7 will never be as much responsive as in XP, and those who are saying otherwise - imo - just forgot how good it really feels:)

<< Comment #65 @ 07:59 CST, 6 November 2011 >>

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Anonymous (98.85.133.200)

Ati Tray tools have always let you adjust the que size. I've been able to always change it whenver I updated drivers. Using 11.11 now w/o using

<< Comment #66 @ 10:30 CST, 6 November 2011 >>

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Anonymous (90.44.47.48) - Reply to #65

not for openGL, only for Direct3D

<< Comment #67 @ 18:01 CST, 23 December 2011 >>

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mootseller

I was just researching flip queue size and found this thread. I can definitely feel a difference when it's set to 0 and 1 in an opengl game (UT99) although by default I think the game is direct3d. I'm using an opengl renderer for it and I can definitely feel a difference between 0 and 1. 0 feels extremely choppy whereas 1 is silky smooth.

<< Comment #68 @ 10:39 CDT, 7 September 2012 >>

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ischju

just re-installed w7. What should I play with? I tried 2, feels okay at the minute but at the same time I can also play without it. PLACEBO OMG

<< Comment #70 @ 19:00 CDT, 8 September 2012 >>

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Anonymous (84.105.139.62)

cg_nopredict 0

Helped for me :)

<< Comment #73 @ 02:44 CDT, 9 September 2012 >>

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T1E ' - Reply to #70

this is a ql default setting, shouldn't be a problem for anyone sane who doesn't mess around with unknown cvars

<< Comment #72 @ 22:17 CDT, 8 September 2012 >>

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yoyoman

So this pre-rendered frame feature only works with older graphic cards and older drivers? Because i tried to install the older drivers with my gtx260 but my card is too new.

EDIT: nvm, the newer drivers allow you to set it to 1, shame i can't test 0 without an older driver and card tho.

Edited by yoyoman at 05:19 CDT, 9 September 2012