I agree that one can start playing duel and focus on other things first. If you are clueless about dueling, starting with timing will likely kill your motivation. There are other topics, like weapon choice, positioning or spawn control which are much more satisfying to learn.

However at a certain point timing items will be important. Not as a newbie, but from rookie on. A few examples:

- Timing to the second is crucial when challenging for an item, as you need to jump over the item at the right time, or you will likely lose it / get tons of damage.
- Knowing how to handle mega and red, recognizing when the order of the two changes, and how to avoid syncing them is important to keep the control.
- Guessing the correct item timing while out of control allows you to time your excursion to unsafe areas to grab weapons, reach other areas, or damage the opponent at the pick up.

I'm slowly writing the Basics of dueling, and timing is one of the necessary skills to make educated choices.

- Timing to the second is crucial when challenging for an item, as you need to jump over the item at the right time, or you will likely lose it / get tons of damage.

You need to do better than that to be safe imo, like early 1:15, mid 1:15, late 1:15. If you slightly mistimed it, then timing can become your nemesis. Therefore, it is generally good, but if you aren’t perfect (which is easy to happen), it can backfire.

Just read part of your basic duel guide and it’s awesome (like many of the stuff you do, the vids especially). Really liked the structure. It might even top all your other work.

I think its still very important to count items. Or at least this is how i started in Q3, and now i have a good feel for when the items come up. It will develop with time, i dont count them anymore still most of the times im being there for the second.
It also helps to develop game sense: "when to be where".
But once you have this feel (i guess few years of experience), its better to not count items to the second, because it will make you too mechanic and will make you assume identifical timemarks without having too much info on the actual times (like MH identificals: ~5:00, ~5:40, ~6:20...etc) which is easily expolitable if the opponents offsetting items.

you dont need to have timing for 4 individual items in order to time 4 items

I just love getting ahead on Houseofdecay and then run the armors from one side of the map to the other. :D. I time mh and the first Ya in the sequence but effectively grab every item on the map the second they spawn. Ofc this only works vs. lesser opponents, but it’s still fun!

Edit; Just realized this was an old thread. Sorry :].

This. When Rapha says he times 4 items what he's probably doing is timing RA and MH and then being aware of everything else relative to that.

The vast majority of people that play duel don't time? NA and Europe are completely different indeed. You can play duel without timing. It goes without saying. For those who want to increase their skills, timing will give an obvious advantage, and at higher levels is definitely necessary.

Depends how good your timing is by feeling. But for inactive players I guess that takes a few days (at least) to get that back completely.

You don't even need to time the red for example when you're delaying it so mega and red doesn't come up at the same time. As long as you know 15 seconds + has passed since you took mega it's fine.

Time only mega, rest by feeling. It's really enough.

It really is. It's probably better for new players to practice cycling items so they can improve timing by feeling.

In TDM you have to time though, imo.

unless youre playing t7/dm13 timing anything else is a waste of time indeed.

well if its a really close game, having the exact second on red helps

if you're gonna time just 1 item then time the one that is most frequently ambushed (and or most dangerous to get)..

Nope, I just time mega and don't care about the rest since most often I know +- when armors spawn or in which circle they spawn.

" You need to have minimum 100-100 and the proper weapons."

you just need to take advantage of each situation, having fixed plans (eg: stack below 100-100, i can't do shit!!) will only let you improve to a certain extent.

and wtf with timing 5 items? i'm pretty sure most upper tier tdm players can time all the items they want, even i can time 5 items in tdm, like a mega, 2 armors and 2 weapons ( +quad :=OO ).

and timing is only as important as you want it to, if your style isn't based on timing, and is solely based on positioning+combat skill, you won't need to time in order to beat even the finest players, as long as you play your game without depending on it(timing).

What I'd like to expand on is how you mentioned the misconception of how duel is all timing. I personally fell into this trap and subsequently learned how to time before I learned how to position, dodge, aim or keep track of my opponents stack. A pretty big mistake on my part as now I have to go back and learn all that.

But, I think a better way to state it is that 'to-the-second-timing' is not strictly necessary at first, but like memento mori said, can become crucial in higher tiers and vs. good opponents.

You need to have timing when you start playing people that can time, because you want to know when you can stick around and fight for an item and when not.

Best example:
You're playing ztn, you're behind in frags, your opponent is 150/150, you are 100/50 and are waiting on the MH as it's up very soon. Your opponent knows the exact time.

a) You know the time:
Decide whether you can delay him just enough that you can pick it up as he rushes in, if he chooses to fight for it.
b) You don't know the time
You either run away, or gamble on the chance that it will be up in time to help you and that he can't jump on it the exact second it spawns. No amount of feel will ever change this situation, as that one second could be vital. This happens very often with good opponents, especially if you're playing from behind.

Sure, I can outaim noobs all day, not time anything and still win, but that quickly changes when I have to play Sc00T or someone similar.

time all items on map = win, cause ur enemy will be 100 stack...

deal with it :b

get 1 frag and then hide runaway for the rest of the game = win
but fun is something else

timing is no fun either

fun is to get items by feelings and outaim your opponent

At least in ztn, I prefer playing vs a slightly sloppy timer over someone that doesn’t time at all. The 1st you know where to find, the 2nd not. The 1st is easier to frag, just w8 for a mistimed mega spawn (1-2sec off are usually enough for the frag and it will happen, since some pick ups won’t be clean).

You can play without timing items only vs weak opponents. Vs good players that can time, well... GL. ;)

good like who?

I disagree since I have seen it happen many times, good players that time losing to players that don’t.

duel isnt only about timing, tho its very important in duel.. how can u say this rofl
for example, u need to stack the yellows (so time them?) to challenge when ur out control and try to get one of the big items..

other example, u need to read the player, whats his next move etc, if u know timings u know where he will be..

if there was a chance to give this post a [-] i would do it

I know the obvious things u mention

If it was so amazingly important, it would be simple impossible for someone that doesn’t time to win a good player that does. I have seen it happen many times though.

Timing is important, but its importance is exaggerated and you can duel without it, like thousands do. I never said that timing isn't important at all. I am merely saying to ppl who are discouraged to duel, because are brainwashed about the unavoidable need to time, to don't. I don't see where u disagree. I have tried to convince one of my best friends to time for years. Some ppl just can’t or simple don’t like it. There is nothing wrong with that and it doesn’t mean that they can’t play duel. They are not even alone. They are actually the majority.

As for your minus, is ok I take your message either way.

ps: and why u replied to this post and not to the main one? I don’t see how it fits here.

u disagreed with chaoz.. what he's saying is correct, i need timing to win vs good players.. the best players time, many do by feeling but its still timing..

ofcourse u can start duel without timing, learning other stuff, but at some point u wont improve coz u need the timing, like positioning is something u 9/10 have to do with timing

i dont say its so damn important, because u need so many things to be a good dueler and timing is just one of these things

positioning and timing are the same thing. the object of the game is to collect items, and to deal more damage than you take, not to get frags. that is the ultimate outcome if you play the game the way it ought to be played.

you can't position intelligently if you don't know times.

Looks like that most duelers consider timing as something to be ashamed of, hence denying it if you ask them about (like I did some years ago :). But let them play with you - and they will pick up those damn powerups the first moment after their respawn.

So my advice to novice - learn to time and do it well. But be aware that timing alone is not enough to win the duel.

Imo timing by feeling is harder to a new player (like me). Pace of the game often changes in duel and your natural time sense just doesn't work until you get used to it. I had learned to time two items before I was able to reliably time by feeling.

yep the overall level of quake is dropping...

Don't worry, as long as id doesn't provide a decent anti-cheat software there will always be enough players who predict your movement perfectly and time 4 items to the second.
Thank you id!

well perfect is not possible without cheats but a pretty good estimation means you're skilled.
Also people that do cheat don't know how to take advantage out of all the 'free knowledge' they have... so they'd still be shit.

Depends on the skill level that you're playing on as well as on the initial skill level of the cheater. I guess it is hard to get close to top30 duelers just by using hacks but a medicore player that has some assistance will certainly gain an advantage about other medicore players.

well what I'm trying to say is more that....
just having the knowledge is only a tiny part of ql... what you do with your knowledge is a lot bigger part of it.

I don't think one got to be a master brain to make use of the knowledge regarding item pickups and spawn times.. if that was the case it wouldn't make sense at all for non-top duelers to time items, which is quite contradictory to what you said before.

hmmm well it's complicated :)

Like hmmmm you can't really see where the one skill starts and the other skill stops. It's like hmmm good item timing flows over into good possitioning flows over into good aim.... Ofcourse some peoples aim is so rediculously good that they don't need to possition themselves good.... Or some people can possition themselves so good that they don't 'need to time'. But like the only famous player who can still get to a high level is strenx. The other players have this combination of skills that flow from one into the other....

There is this link between all skills where if you wanna beat the enemy (logically) you just have to be better at the game (which is movement / mouse control and timing).

I can only agree with the OP. No doubt that a good timing ability can help but it isn't necessary. Basically you can't focus on everything and if you focus on one part then you'll lack at the other.

90% of the time I don't time because I simply forget to do so. And there's only a handful of people that punish me for it. I do time by feeling though, but that's just an automatic and unconscious process. Due to my experience I simply know when I have to be back for an item, what rotation the items are on and whether the RA is picked up before, at the same time or after the MH and by approximately what margin. You can deduce this kind of stuff by listening or seeing the item being picked up, but also by enemy movements as there are standard routes people tend take after picking up an item. It's quite rare for people in control to pick an item up and stay in that room.

Usually I start timing whenever I feel my control is slipping due to coming too early or to late at items, or I notice myself giving away free items, or when out of control and setting no other way to get back into control. In that last case I usually stand at a far away position or around the corner listening so that I can focus on just timing and having the advantage that the enemy doesn't know that I know the exact time. This way I can attack out of the blue, which works like a charm on maps like dm13, aero and Hektik.

My advice is to just play the style you like. The more experience you have the more stuff you can do simultaneously. I played people that focused on timing early on and lack combat skills and the other way around. You are about as good as the sum of your skills. It's debatable whether one skill outweighs other skills, but I think it's fairly balanced.

Hope I didn't make too much errors, if so I blame it on the dictionary on my phone :)

-Sc00T

Timing is highly relative. Having a good knowledge of how fast you get from point a to point b consistently is major in determining what items you can and can not get. With all the consistent spam, most players tend to create a time window in order to grab things just incase. This is why exact timing becomes less important when positioning becomes more. My personal experiences with timing have proven to be fruitful when I just wait out the item and just round the item. Another way I like to use js keeping a consistent visual check on all items. This way, I know roughly at what times were taken away. Of course, in a tourney, it is highly reccomended to time as exactly as possible. However, when playing practice games/pubs a rounding method is more than sufficient as a substitute so you can focus on other things to work on. Practice/experience is essential.

Lol. Cypher not timing? Ok :D.

Regarding your point: Of course you can play duel without timing, just as you can play duel without being able to strafejump. Playing without one of the basic element will just end out in you losing a lot more than you would if you had the element in your control.

Sure it is hard for new players to time items, but this is something you gotta force yourself to do (at least if you want to improve), and then it will slowly get better. Not thinking about it is just giving up imo. I mean you are playing the game so why not practice this aspect while playing it? What do you lose? The fun? Hardly.

You say that it is not necessary but fact is, that a player that times 2-3 items to the second, will always have a massive advantage over the guy who times one of none at all. Being able to take every RA and MH when you are in control while screwing with the enemy’s YAs/shards when possible is devastating. You talk about awareness of the enemy’s hp and armor, but this skill have nothing to do with timing and a player doesn’t have to choose between these two skillset.

In some sense, you are right - you don't need timing to play duel. In fact, it is not really clear exactly what you need to play duel. Do you need aim? Nah, you can just spam and hit "good enough" and its ok. Do you need movement? Nah, you can turn auto-run off.

I think what is important to mention is: you don't need any of that, but it does help. So if you want to win, then you want to do that. And if you don't do that, and your opponent does, you will lose. If you are hitting "I'm bored, I don't want to aim right now" shots, and your opponent is concentrating on his crosshair, you will lose. If you are just walking around the map, and your opponent is rushing to be in the right place, at the right time, for every fight, you will lose.

And finally, if you're not timing items, and your opponent is, you will lose. Really really bad :)

And finally, if you're not timing items, and your opponent is, you will lose. Really really bad :)

if it was that easy... the reality though begs to differ :(

u can say what u say only about aim. It is absolutely essential in ql. Not the same for the other 2 though. I mean I have seen ppl with no timing winning over decent players that time. I have seen really good aimers with bad movement also winning. But I have never seen a really bad aimer win any decent player. He must have good rockets the least.

I think in q3 timing was more important. Maybe, in qw too?

It is important and it is an additional weapon in your game. But it is not a must, you can't play without it, type of thing.

I'm talking about all things being equal.

I haven't actually played much quakelive at all. But I assume there are items there such as armor and megahealth, which increase your total amount of hitpoints

So... if you just reduce it to a math problem, it turns out that if you time the items, then you are in a better position to pick those items up, therefore you have more hitpoints, therefore you are able to take more damage, and therefore you have a better chance of winning.

Now, items might be so weak in quakelive that the impact they make on the duel outcome is small. And there are also cases where one player is so much better (aim/movement) than the other, that he can win a 0/100 vs 200/200 battle anyway. In fact, some players give up important items on purpose, as a sort of handicap, in order to make a practice game more interesting.

But, all things being equal, timing gives you an advantage. Do you need an advantage?

edit: To clarify, I agree. Aim is the number one thing a beginner should focus on (kind of like in starcraft, the build orders aren't really all that important for a beginner - building workers constantly and not floating resources but macroing is the first step to master)

nice post. I think that some maps, like ztn have too much armor and health and that probably makes the main power ups, mega and red, less significant. Also, aim is easier in ql, as also +back.

Also, someone that times OK will have much harder time winning vs someone that times well, than someone that doesn’t time at all

Did I read this correctly?

yea it isn’t straight forward, but it has some base.

recent example: zero4 dying while dropping to mega in dm6

if he had perfect timing, he wouldn’t had died
if he wasn’t timing at all, again he wouldn’t had died
because he was timing OK (but not perfect), he died

other examples are when u r w8ing on mega on ztn like a seating duck. Like I said, it might sound weird, but if u r timing to the second and ur opponent to the millisecond, then u have to change ur gameplan or u will be out of luck.

your logic is wrong in the original sentence. whoever is timing better, is better off.

recent example: zero4 dying while dropping to mega in dm6

he took a risk that didn't account for the imperfection of his timing or he had predict items on.

if he wasn’t timing at all, again he wouldn’t had died

if he wasn't timing at all, he wouldn't have gotten any mh at all, and would have lost the game, and not have had the opportunity to spam the MH spawn or jump on MH right after he spawned.

because he was timing OK (but not perfect), he died

wrong. because he jumped too early, he died. all he had to do was to make sure it already spawned.

Like I said, it might sound weird, but if u r timing to the second and ur opponent to the millisecond, then u have to change ur gameplay or u will be out of luck.

this doesn't sound weird at all. if you know you are doing something worse than the opponent, you need to account for that and not take unwarranted risks. that makes perfect sense, the first sentence doesn't.

because he was timing OK (but not perfect), he died

that holds true

this doesn't sound weird at all. if you know you are doing something worse than the opponent, you need to account for that and not take unwarranted risks

I agree with that (but most players that time are obsessed with the items, which makes it really hard for them to change their plans)

this holds true

no, it doesn't. you're ignoring causality and it's key. he died because he jumped. he jumped because he made a decision to jump. his decision to jump could have been wrong for many reasons, but that is why he died. yes, it is true that he came to the point where he had to decide whether he should jump because he had some idea of when it was going to spawn. but having that idea is NOT where he went wrong. it's like saying "because he was born, he died"

You are clearly not a newbie player and have little idea what it feels like. From my perspective of duel noob, you are very, very far from reality.
Basically, at the beginning, you have no choice but to do timing, because you are not given anything else to work with.
You cannot just go and get an item, because you don't yet know when it is safe to do it, and it is not possible to get that knowledge without experience and it is not possible to get proper experience when you are on itemless map with zero stack and the only your option is to get killed by 200/200 opponent no matter what you do.
You say that many players don't time. In reality, most players don't time all items to the second, but even at the lowest level, even minimally experienced players, know the approximate times "by feeling", so they still time them, even if not by computing numbers in their head, so you can't expect at all that opponent will just leave item for you or hope that if you get it, it won't be stolen when it respawns.
When I started playing duels, even with players who are ranked at the very bottom in qlranks, I couldn't manage even to get one yellow armor. Most of the times it will be already taken, if it is not, either you'll meet enemy on the way there and be killed, or you'll be trapped and won't be able to get out without being killed. And as you say yourself, you cannot fight with initial health. So there is chicken and egg problem: you cannot fight and get experience on the map when you have no stack, and you cannot get any stack when you don't have map experience and fighting abilities.
And the only thing that could eventually allow me to break this circle is timing, not necessarily timing of my own items, but, for example if I hear times of mega and red, then I can predict that opponent will go and take them at those times, so knowing this I can plan safe routes to take yellows and finally get a bit of stack and keep it. Then also this timing helps me know when enemy will be leaving items, so I can damage him a bit, and eventually even out our stacks, and only at this point I can try to engage in battles and learn about positioning, strafing, etc.
So essentially, at the beginning, the only thing that enabled me to stop being completely raped and start learning and getting experience in other aspects of duels was timing. Eventually, I guess, with enough of that experience, people can stop timing everything thoroughly and begin relying on feeling (therefore we have many experienced players who "don't time"), but for the beginner, it is absolutely necessary, because it's the only thing that you can learn without experience, I just don't see any other thing that can get you started.

When people time more than 2 items such as ra and mega, in what order do you keep reminding yourself? Usually i just keep repeating myself with ra 1st and mega 2nd. I have also even heard that some people don't keep reminding themselves the number but by instincts can tell when an item is spawning and when that feeling comes they just calculate when it will spawn again and instead of constantly repeating themselves the number like i do, they rely on instincts and when they feel that an item is coming up, they just remember the number and do it again. Anyone else do this?