zealot \:D/

only on paper ;) i haven't been playing tdm for atleast half a year.

Just start dude! Ppl wanna see you play :)

There are so many good teams signed up for the TDM Eurocup this year. It seems a shame you just don't do 16 teams direct invite, then top 4 of each group (2x8) make it to single elim playoffs. Ideally, anyway. But, Sitto vs. Play? Both those teams should be in no question. A shame that one is guaranteed not to be.

Idd, they should change it to sitto/play vs dx/coma. Both play and sitto deserves EC spot.

Yeah i felt like they both deserved a spot after their performance in OpenCup.
I think the reason why they're matched together is because of the outcome of the final match of last season OC between the two.
sitto won first map and second one was never played (there were some issues).

So because you can't tell for sure if either of the team is much better than the other, and they were the best teams in Division 1, you decide that one of them is NOT good enough for EC?
That's what you imply when you make them play against each other. And it doesn't make any sense.

Out of the teams chosen for qualification, reasonable matches would be:

play vs lemming effects
sitto vs Team Evolution

This way, both can prove (again?!) that they are in fact the best Div1 teams and should play EC. Separate qualification matches are the least they deserve. You should really give them a direct spot, though.

So because you can't tell for sure if either of the team is much better than the other, and they were the best teams in Division 1, you decide that one of them is NOT good enough for EC?
That's what you imply when you make them play against each other. And it doesn't make any sense.

I wrote:

Yeah i felt like they both deserved a spot after their performance in OpenCup.

Thats my opinion and i'm only guessing why they were matched together. Like i said, i do agree they both deserve the spot.

I was not involved with team picks, i was not asked for my opinion. I only posted the news here.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I assumed you were involved in the decision.

this,this.

Invite sitto and play and make it 3 qualifiers :)

True

w00t? some d9 is invited, but Neutralizerz has to do qualify? again some dumb admin of cb...

What? onfire is invited but lemmings effect have to qualify? etc.

Just look at e.g. HoQ results or their activity. It's not about any clan vs any clan, but some of these are really strange and unreasonable picks.

INTENTIONALLY DELIBERATE MURDERERSSS WOWOAH

... ON PURPOSE!

neu is fighting for the win in hoq tdm league and they have to play in qualifiers to eurocup?

Some really bad choices imo:

1) EK, D9 and onfire don't deserve direct invitations.
Just look at their recent HoQ results.
EK and onfire have both lost 6 out of 6 matches in Division 1.
D9 isn't near a top placement in Division 2. They placed last in their group in the last EC, too. Surely, they will have to prove that they earn another place in EC.
Imo, it's the same for EK and onfire, but I can't check their recent CB placements because the site is down.


2) NEU, sitto and play deserve direct invitations.

Again, look at the HoQ.
NEU is a top team in Division 1; play are 1st in Division 2.
Also, play and sitto won 1st and 2nd place in the last OpenCup Division1.
Putting them against in each other in a qualification match is the worst possible decision, because both are good enough for EC.

3) COMA vs dx is also a weird qualifier. Both teams have good chances to win if you put them up against D9/onfire/TE/LE.
Thus, it should be possible that both of them qualify.


----

In summary:
Only the qualification match 11 is an okay-ish choice. All other 3 are really unfair, mainly because they mostly consist of teams who definitely are good enough for EC.

edit: updated with the info that immune decided to drop.

While our hoq results have been bad, this is mostly due to the time it starts, 7gmt, we're unable to field our strongest lineup. The one time we did was with murder and we lost a close game 1-2 who were last years runner up. We've also wildcarded a couple of games we see as winnable.

Don't forget we were quarter finalists in E/C last season.

What did you say about iMmune?

A couple of things. Mostly that you have to be invited (or atleast play a qualification match).

Thanks. I believe we would have placed highly, but the only reason I entered us originally was because I wanted some fun on retribution. However when the vote came in and Deep Inside won by 2 votes, I knew every team would pick it against us and it would not be the fun season we looked forward to. So I thought it best to withdraw and give another team our spot that might enjoy playing that map.

there aren't many teams who are good at osp5 in EC tho, but yea if its not fun for u its understandable, now u can stream more games :D

I also think play and sitto should be included, losing one in a qualifier would be bad for tdm.

In my opinion most of the qualifier teams should just get a spot, most of them can actually take some of the invited teams.

onfire and d9 direct invites.. they would lose to 6 teams thats in the qualifications. + ek is questionable too

eurocup <3

- immune dropped out by their request
- direct invitations are based on previous EC results
- qualifications are based on previous OC results and results from other leagues
- 8 teams in one group is not doable

Ok, didn't know about immune.

- direct invitations are based on previous EC results

So D9's last place in the last EC earns them another direct invite? You can't be serious.
What did onfire accomplish in the last EC again?

And previous OC results don't count? Or why do you decide that one of the 2 best teams out of Division 1 (sitto and play) isn't good enough for EC?

qualifications are based on previous EC results and results from other leagues

Other leagues:
- NEU currently 2nd place in Div1
- TE currently 7th place in Div2
--> both are treated equally?


If there is the rule that no team can get a direct invitation if it hasn't already played in the previous EC (which is a really weird rule), you at least have to make sure that you don't put up 2 EC-worthy teams against each other in a qualification match. This applies to matches 10 and 12.

Also, don't give direct invitations to teams who failed in the last EC just because they are one of the few ones that reapplied.

So D9's last place in the last EC earns them another direct invite? You can't be serious.

Tulls were invited to Q3 EC every season even tho they almost always finished last :)

So D9's last place in the last EC earns them another direct invite? You can't be serious. What did onfire accomplish in the last EC again?

There are only 8 teams from last EC who signed, so there was no other team that could be put directly into EC this season.

And previous OC results don't count? Or why do you decide that one of the 2 best teams out of Division 1 (sitto and play) isn't good enough for EC?

My bad.. I meant that qualifications are based on previous OC results and other leagues.

both are treated equally?

We couldn't find anyone else who could do the qualification instead of TE.

If there is the rule that no team can get a direct invitation if it hasn't already played in the previous EC (which is a really weird rule)

That's the way how those teams were picked and I don't find it very weird.. there are more ways of doing invitation/qualification and we chose this.

you at least have to make sure that you don't put up 2 EC-worthy teams against each other in a qualification match.

Currently we weren't able to avoid this. It's also a matter of opinion.

Sorry but I don't have time to give you per-team explanation.

Admins prerogative. If there is such a choice as 4 groups 4 teams why not take that one?

Also teams change and go up and down ladders outside of CB.
Do you need to justify letting each and every team to someone?
One of your qualifiers won official match against a direct invitee.
Letting more teams in broadens the playground for everyone.

If there is such a choice as 4 groups 4 teams why not take that one?

Letting more teams in broadens the playground for everyone.

4 groups with 4 teams or 2 groups with 6 teams.. that's a matter of opinion. I don't like the first one because teams would get to play only 3 matches in group stage. Also EC is not about having loads of teams competing there. If it was, we could just invite everyone there and make 10 groups.

Do you need to justify letting each and every team to someone?

It feels like some people demand it.

Also teams change and go up and down ladders outside of CB.

One of your qualifiers won official match against a direct invitee.

This was already explained.

There are only 8 teams from last EC who signed, so there was no other team that could be put directly into EC this season.

Then don't put all 8 of them directly into EC. I already wrote this in my previous post:
"Also, don't give direct invitations to teams who failed in the last EC just because they are one of the few ones that reapplied."

Fact is, there's a high chance that teams like D9 or onfire wouldn't stand a chance against sitto or play in a qualification match. They would also have a hard time against COMA or dioxide, judging by the most recent results.
It's not fair that they get to "steal" one of their spots just because they failed in last year's EC.

Currently we weren't able to avoid this. It's also a matter of opinion.

You could avoid it by not having sitto and play compete against each other. As I mentioned above, this implies that only ONE SINGLE TEAM out of division 1 is good enough for the EC, because the 2nd best isn't allowed.
This doesn't make any sense, though. Due to only 8 signups of previous EC-teams, you HAVE to fill the EC with previous Div1-teams. The decision two NOT allow the second best div1-team into EC directly contradicts this need.


edit: Nobody demanded justifications for each team. But as you can judge from most other comments, a lot of people don't like how onfire and D9 are invited, because they haven't had good performances recently. So the least you can do is explain your decision to include these two OR make them play a qualification.

So the least you can do is explain your decision to include these two OR make them play a qualification.

I belive he did explain.. you're just not happy with his answer.


Everyone is going to have their own opinion, i believe you were the one that said team italy should be low seed for NC.. i wonder how they managed to reach the bronze final? :)

Thanks.

The problem below still applies. I'm hoping for an explanation why you don't want the 2nd best team of Division 1 in the EC, when you have 4 slots to fill.

You could avoid it by not having sitto and play compete against each other. As I mentioned above, this implies that only ONE SINGLE TEAM out of division 1 is good enough for the EC, because the 2nd best isn't allowed.
This doesn't make any sense, though. Due to only 8 signups of previous EC-teams, you HAVE to fill the EC with previous Div1-teams. The decision two NOT allow the second best div1-team into EC directly contradicts this need.

All qualifying teams deserve the place in EC equally.

I don't understand how this is a relevant reply to the problem above. Did you even read it?

You need 4 new teams in the EC. Out of these new teams, you don't allow the 2nd best team into the EC. See the problem?

Of course I've read your post.

If teams didn't deserve the place in EC equally, then there wouldn't have to be any qualification in first place (we would just pick teams which deserve it the most). But since they do deserve it equally, it doesn't really matter who plays against who.

Do you understand the idea now?

I always thought the idea of the EC would be having the best teams of Europe play against each other. Too bad that you don't see it this way and don't want the 2nd best team of the OC to be competing in the EC.

Don't worry there.. I know what the idea of EC is. What I wrote here is just an explanation how things were done. I didn't say it was my opinion nor decision.

Whos descision it is.
If we're wanking you here instead of asking these questions on the right adress just say?
Chief of Cups?

2nd problem, thus a 2nd reply:

You said that

- direct invitations are based on previous EC results

The previous EC results of D9 are:

EC13: Lost all matches they played.
EC14: Lost all matches they played.

So, if invitations are bases on results (and not on mere participation), I wonder why you would invite a team who failed to win a single match in the last two seasons of EC.

Thanks in advance for taking your time to explain this, too. :)

There is a number which defines how many teams go straight to EC. This number is 8 and those 8 teams which are invited are those which met the requirements. If you want .of to be forced with qualification, then the number of directly invited clans would have to be smaller than 8 or there would have to be more singups from teams which would meet those requirements I mentioned.

That's the reason for all those 8 clans to be directly invited.

You're saying that you HAVE to invite exactly 8 teams and you're only allowed to invite teams that played in the previous EC?
So if only 7 teams from the previous EC had applied, then the EC would have been cancelled? This doesn't add up.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying.. seems like you are not able to correctly interpret what I said.

maybe because you are not saying it clearly.
What it seems you're saying is:
Between sitto which is 75% of team italy which got some NC results and play which showed consistent result and until they played us didn't lose a single HOQ match, which they still could've won since we brought it in last seconds. You are taking in only 1 team.

Not counting nEu as before participating in CB tourney altho they have dibbe (ex 4k), noctis (ex youNameIt), debtor (enemy), flatecek (enemy), flash (metsu)! That's silly

Scowl also has a point, being bad in 2 seasons of EC should merit some argument to not directly invite a team just cause they applied with past EC experience.

As prodx said broaden it, there is no chance like this with so many teams interested. Next season who know which of these clans will be active.

Also you're forgetting that you are here to do some good by teams and by the game you moderate not vice versa. Switch it up and do it more balanced.

http://forums.epicgames.com/threads/347772-In...EuroCup-IX

The participating teams are:
(...)
- The winners of last year's open cup: Celtic War Lordz

If other supervisors are inviting the OC winner, why can't you?


http://clanbase.ggl.com/news_league.php?lid=12641

In the current ET EC, some teams are directly invited ("Finlantic6") who didn't play in last season's EC and some teams who played in the last EC ("TAG") have to play a qualification.

If they can do it, why can't you?


So are you one of the few supervisors who meticulously sticks to rules which lead to some teams in EC being worse than some in OC? Or are you shitting us with some made-up rules which are supposed to justify your decisions?

based on upper info it seemed almost that there is no way in hell they could invite a team consisting of 8 ex EC players to play directly.

what a joke :D

ET EC will have 3 weeks of qualifying and then 4 groups of 4 clans to play. no TIME!

imho should be smth like this

Directly invited teams:
1. 4Kings Gaming Royalty
2. xentorium
3. Team Mamut
4. play
5. aCtion Ligan
6. sitto
7. Deliberate Murder
8. Neutralizerz

Qualifiers:
9. Elite Killers vs lemmings effect
10. onfire vs Skillz United
11. coma! vs Team Evolution
12. dioxide vs District 9

Just like what i think. Some invites/qualis are realy rediculous.

I'd write it up as h8m3 did.

No offense to EK they deserve the spot as much as the next clan. This season will be bitchin' since when you look at the teams, almost anyone could take on anyone and give them run for their money. Including us.

I'd like to see 16 team cup. Shows a lot of activity. There will be many games to broadcast and teams will get time in playing at the top level.

Hurry and finish before summer is an okay goal. But we are always whining about quake being dead, teams not playing, tdm scene is crappy.
Now we have 16 teams up for grabs on 12 spots when it could've easily been all 16!

It's been 4 weeks of map voting and groups weren't up for discussion.
Most of suggestions here and arguments are valid and should be taken into consideration.

Yeah, like its so hard to do 4 groups with 4 teams. Would go even faster if wanted. Still sticking with h8m3s model though.

Well I wouldn't mind qualifications.
On the other hand 2 teams from 4 groups yield same results and can be played in the same amount of time.

Kinda silly tho to have everyone vote on the map so it's a community decision, then give clans a vote so it's more fair, have so much input and then neglect the obvious things as that everyclan would wanna play and play most out of CB EC chance.

I'd switch it up, or change it to 4 groups - 4 teams. Stupid enough to play all those clans for practise all the time going up the ladder. cup games are a challenge opportunity.

And yes I am saying this because we have a qualifying match, but so does TE, so does Neu, play and sitto.

Clanbase is being clanbase.

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/noctis

noctis plays for neutralizerz?

nEuctis \o/!!

if they qualify :D
that's what is funny about this:
teams with noctis dibbe and the likes are playing qualifications. Teams with purri and av3k are playing qualifications.
And then to sweeten the deal they include le and te which they position opposite of any skill or team matching.

:D

KreJzi!! professionals cant swoop in and clean hous!!!!

16 teams plz

I did not expect to Qualify :(
I have to agree to some of you that some of these picks I find very debatable.

thought Skillz United would get direct invite given how well they performed in Nations Cup

They perfomed well but kinda went semi-inactive for a month-two already
but yeah, if they look at CB results then skillz should be invited (which is exactly the nations team which got top4 this season and may even get top3)

but it's ClownBase so im not surprised

didnt expect to qualify as wel.. especially because we have a stronger line up in CB than in HoQ..

Looking at the setup, i thought it would of been:

sitto + play direct invites .. based on last seasons OC

and obviously

Le, Evo, neu, skillz, dx, coma in qualifiers due to either being a team that hasn't played in ec/oc last season or their respective positions from last season.

I'm not trying to be biased but expecting EK to be dropped is a bit harsh just because of a different league/cup. There's so many explanations(excuses) for this, and considering we are probably the older team out of any clan around... we would say if we didn't feel comfortable to compete in EC, but as it is we can hold our own vs any team there (excluding 4k) :o).

trippy. LE is better than EK and you know it. whats dis?????? ;D

All jokes aside, we need more teams in EC. With all due respect, how can D9, EK and MAMUT be in EC if LE, sitto and play are not? But this is a GOOD thing. Means the air is thin and should provide for a good Eurocup season. Only thing we need is a bigger field.

What about nEu?

nEu shouldnt even be part of the discussion, they have a sick lineup.

i'm basing this on the fact of previous ec cups :| - we worked our way up from OC to EC, so why should we be dropped when we didn't do that bad last EC :)

I couldn't check the last EC yesterday, because the CB site was down. That's why I only based it on your current HoQ results. Sorry about that.

You did well in the last EC, so imo you're staying.

But seeing D9 losing all their matches in the last 2 seasons and still being invited makes me wonder whether this really is the only option.

I think they'd be glad to play a qualification and give someone else a chance in EC if they lose.

In my opinion:

Invite all the qualifierclans into EC and make three groups. Any of those teams belongs in EC to be honest.

Putting one of them back in OC will ruin all the fun for other OC clans because they will pretty much dominate the rest.

That would impose complication for admins. But it think they could do it.
That satisfies the group clan game ratio requirement that seem to be here.

Heh, would you mind drawing up (paint or whatever) how the playoff stage from 3 groups would look like.. i'm very curious to see that :)

http://www.esreality.com/post/2247050/cb-euro...pid2247998

with a 3-3-2 finals split based on the group of death getting 3 spots.
That would take 2 best clans in one 5 clan group to finals, 3 best clans in the hardest group to the finals and 3 clans for the third group which ever it is to the finals. That's for a 8 team split.

You want a 12 team split you have 4-4-4 split for groups. there is 4 clans that lose a spot there with 1-1-2
But since those 2 clans were able to play EC this season I don't see any problem there.

problem?

I see, so you would pick out 8 and have them play each other.
Of course they would have to be matched thogether by even weirder system (unfair and basically a loto based on which group they end up).

Here is also the down side. CB system prolly doesn't work with 3 groups. It has to be a number that is divided by 2.

All spam doz3r with link to this thread :E

Ok everything before this post is TLDR.

If EK and MAMUT get a direct invite, which I have personally played on numerous occasions quite recently with LE HI TRIPPY Y U NO JOIN LE??????, and a team like nEu does not get a direct invite, something is fucked up.


Dozer you fucking bastard, make a 16 team poule :D. You know LE, sitto, play can definitely take on EK, MAMUT, D9 .. rest of the teams I cant discuss because, well, didnt play them recently.

Just make it more interesting for everybody is all I say. Other than that it will be fun regardless whether we play with LE or not. Im glad to see activity in Quake after being gone so laaaaawng. #tdmpickup MATHAFUCKA!

kisses.

PS: Sorry if obvious troll is obvious, I am tilting at keyboard.

What are u talking about? We beat sitto and you in a official match few weeks ago, only that matters and look, what we had had achieved in previous season of Eurocup, and YES, we played a qualify match.

You just rage because I rape you. :)))))))))

Basically ...

More teams in EC. You can't possibly claim that having a group of nEu, play, sitto and le wouldn't be a shedload of fun for everyone. Regardless of your rage due to trololol. I mean all the BS aside, you know very well that it'd be a really cool group which would have a rightful place in the eurocup.

i'm an LE mascott :[

Increase teams :(

cmon clanbase, listen to the scene & make a good decision for once!

I think increasing the teams in this instance is best for quake.tdm, the scene is quite small and we have a fairly large portion of teams that want or deserve spots in the eurocup.

Ill do a mini break down with my own point of view;

nEu/ Lemmings - nEu whilst being fairly nEu(w) have a solid lineup esepecially now with noctis making life easier for them, they are going to beat lemmings which ever way you look at it which means a team who have vastly improved in the last couple of months and of Eurocup quality, miss out.

Sitto/Play - both have awesome lineups and would quite easily hold their own against last cups winners, making one of them lose out on the Eurocup and be forced to play Opencup (and probably not bother) would be pointless.

Skillz/Team Evo - i dont think Skillz should really have to play Evo for this spot, given the other teams in the qualifiers and with the lineups, it seems a bit silly.

Dx/Coma - Quite a tough one as both teams are active and have more than demonstrated a fair amount of ability in recent months, again, it would be sad not to see both in the Eurocup.

For the picked teams;

Both mamut and ek competed in the last Eurocup and were the newer entries who actually did quite well. Mamut had a solid group stage and only just missed out on the 1/4 and ek progressed and more than held their own against action in the 1/4 final.

d9, your guess is as good as mine as they seem restricted by their connections at times, server searches with them also suck, could possibly give way to another team considering they didnt win a match last cup iirc.

Regarding ek, we havent been as active as some teams or the last Eurocup though we have kept it going so to speak, part of me wishes we never signed up to HoQ after discovering in the first week neither GaRpy or Trippy would be available for it at said time (communication failure).

In conclusion it seems insane that we should we have to lose out obvious Eurocup quality teams to the Opencup where they will either not bother or rage it? (two of nEu/Le/Play/Sitto). But theres also teams who established a fair claim to their existing spot and it would be unfair on teams to remove them to make way for new ones, just because they won a few pracs against teams fielding weaker lineups, eh prodx.

Its up to the admins now to make changes and i think the only way to do it is to get rid of most of the qualifiers and bring in most of the above.

he's just trolling :D

But you wrote it, we came a long way (div2-div1-EC). Tell me what would happen if we had a lucky day and lucked a team like nEu out?
That would be almost worse than losing IMO.

I agree with most things you say here.

I really don't want to even pose a claim on the spot of any team that played and did good in EC. Matter of seniority and experience.

I'm saying here that there was 3 weeks of map picking and no time to play the games clans wanna play or try to accommodate more clans?

Also we do pretty good in officials too :)

American replying a 2nd time. In this case, it seems there is really only one GOOD solution. Conclusion drawn from the communities want to basically see all teams from the invite and the qualifiers play in the EC.

Set up 3 groups like so:

Group A - 5 teams;

Group B - 5 teams;

Group C - 6 teams;

Admit all teams that are in the qualifiers to EC immediately. Begin matches immediately.

???

Profit?

The people have spoken. (Unless they haven't and feel free to correct me. Not trying to be an American ahole in your Euro biz).

The only problem i see is that lower divisions - mainly div1 will be fairly weak due to 16 teams EC.
But other thought comes to mind.. which is that i don't see such a dispute between so balanced teams in years and this is great and provides, potentially, the opportunity to bring and epic EC that will brings us back to the old EC days.
And even tho other divisions would be naturally weakened by this decisions it would be imo a motivation aswell for less experienced teams to win a "big prize" for them like a div1 or something.

Anyways in the end i think its all about the SHOW.

Can be easily done with two groups of 7 clans with same competition layout with one more match for everyone.

Just swap D9 with nEu.

EK has already earned its spot last season.

just do 2 groups of 8

more happy teams = more matches = more happy spectators

There won't be groups of 7 or 8 due to time constraints.. unless of course teams could actually agree on playing 2 matches per week. But seeing how most of these teams already play in another cup it might be too dificult to manage scheduling that many matches.

i repeat
16 teams tournament
NOW
no fuckin qualifications


i can admin if CB needs help :D

4 groups of 4 teams
2 best teams go to the next round
gg

I agree Tony, a proposal for 10

i think that 12 of the 16 teams can give us epic tdm moments,they have equal skill and we could watch great matches
i really hope CB allow ALL the 16 teams to play the tournaments,they dont need to qualify...
the big problem is the match schedule,sometimes they take weeks for playing a single match,cb gotta force a lot of games.
i am for 4 groups of 4 clans,or at least 2 groups of 8

[+]

4x4 gets my vote! 2 out of each progress! It just means 8 enter a playoff game rather than 6 straight in to a quarter final. It adds a week or two to the schedule but it's going to be a much better competiton.

Come on wision/doz3r, you know it makes sense.

Absolutely agree with Antonio.

Just silly to ignore the community like this, but it would be quite clanbase like. At the end of the day, regardless of all the banter, I think all in the know in the scene know there is plenty to be debated about these qualifiers and about these invites. To me the only solution seems just to simply make more groups and allow more teams. Isn't that a good thing? You've maybe 3 or 4 teams which stick out above the rest, the rest is anyone's guess on any given day.

Either hold a 4 team eurocup or let the scene decide to have a real showdown and maybe even surprise with some upsets. Shouldn't all of us be happy at the level of competetiveness in the eurocup? Embrace it. And what time constraints? Isn't the EC run for the scene by the scene, for everyone's entertainment. Shouldn't the scene with collaboration of the admins run this tournament in the best way for the spectator? That's what it's about right, competition and people being able to watch cool games?

That's the way I see it anyway, if we want to make it happen we can easily do it.
And chris + miso; come on dudes, both of you know me way too long to fall for the obvious troll.

prodx

PS: TLDR!!!111

I sent an email to Cb admins with my perfect english asking for a 16 teams tournament
Stay tuned

I emailed the admins responsible for the rules and cup format regarding 3 from one country rule in nations, about two months ago, still not had a response!

emailed where?

The guy off the page i found on clanbase. Cant remember who now it was so long ago!

i think complaints are totally right here and most of them have valid arguments (example: why directly inviting d9 to ec if they didnt win a single match in last 2 ecs.. even tho i like d9(we praccied together and they're super nice) and im sure they will do much better this year cause they are training, they have talent, teamplay and they got better pings this season it seems(so they have all the rights to play ec themselves).. but still makes no sense to directly invite them and not doing that with sitto,le,play,neu,coma,skillz etc)

but whats more important is to consider that we have to deal with current ql activity.. all of those teams competing is an huge opportunity cause we have 16 teams that are trying to compete at the 'highest' level.. if u deny that possibility to teams like us(sitto), play and le (im assuming neu and skillz would qualify anyway).. they most likely won't find the motivation to play oc.
and all the tdm scene would pay for that(just look at how many pcws lemmings do).. less chance to find pcw etc..
every member of those 16 teams knows how hard is to find pcws or if u find them its always vs the same 2-3 teams.. we have to hold what we have now.. with 16 teams competing in ec and clans playing in oc would be easier for everyone to find pcw and hopefully there could be a boost in activity (just look at #tdmpickup how nicely is doing)..

regarding sitto vs play(this is just for interested parties).. i understand some guys wants to see 'revenge' of last oc final('revenge' since only 1 map was played)..
i'd like also to explain why it was not completed.. because it seems that we just took the oppurtinity to take def win immediately which is not the case -[example(just for the sake of it): we had groupmatch fixed vs coma, they didnt show up and made us lose time since they actually were online playing pcw.. we agreed to play another day even if we had not our cup lineup.. and they did also not treat us well after that match dont know really why but we dont have bad blood/resentment for anyone(atleast i dont)]-.... at first there was delay on scheduling it (actually right now i dont even remember clearly but i think shugg did not be very nice to flash).. than when finally we found a day to play one of them got pc problems during the final and couldnt play 2nd map(honestly 2nd map was started but they did quit).. that was a bad period for us we had no time to play generally(rickmage works and flash plays basketball as a job).. then i tried also to contact purri pming him on irc(and didnt got reply) after 2 days the final was 'played' to ask if they wanted to replay the 2nd map someday even tho after the final our first decision was to take def win because was hard for us to find time to play.. im sure admins would have allowed that.. was hard to be every of us online back in those weeks and we had other matches to play too and more importantly, but not an excuse, we were demotivated after dhw

but really there's no point on doing qualifiers like neu vs le and sitto vs play since 2 of those clans would not be allowed to play ec and that would be killer for those 2 teams
those are the reasons i find important but if u want to base u r decisions on 'results' i can mention we did beat mamut and 102 in igl#2 (ofc we also lost matches ie we lost to mamut in esl amc#1).. and we also won last oc :>.. and thats valid for other clans too if u look at hoq (neu) and other competitions etc.. just doesnt make sense to me in any way u try to look at those decisions

anyway i really appreciate the work admins do.. lot of time is required.. i just tried how stressful sometimes can be only to schedule one single match of ur own team (people not answering etc).. running cups with every other team complaining for diff reasons etc etc i imagine its hard task

___________
and i didnt read all of the comments above yet, my fault, but will do

i forgot to mention dx

btw how great would have been to have the 2 new tdm maps included this season and having 16 teams playing them in ec.. and people playing them in pickups..

I agree with this... I'm not playing OC if ek don't make it through so that's another team that could die...

16 teams in EC just won't happen guys.. but I hope this will make you more happy:
http://clanbase.ggl.com/news_league.php?lid=12667

nice got dropped. gg.

:D

At least we got a bang out of our last match vs play on HOQ winning by a few frags, but it was hell of a ride.

Your drop was based on your performance in IGL (you asked for team evaluation based on current state, so we just did that). On HoQ site, there's def loss for your team in match against play.

We beat play in that game without me playing. We actually won that game last night, it just hasn't been modified yet, look at the stats. But if you want you can just look at some of our recent stats.

I mean really wision?

how can you base clans positions in EC from other leagues/cups, Some players/clans can't make these cups/leagues and their teams field weaker teams :)

bad bad clanbase

We didn't in first place if you remember.. but community raised its voice and forced us to change invitations/qualifications. Also we cannot follow 50 clans, their A/B/C teams, lineups for every match they play and then decide.

well instead of just dumping teams out and not even thinking about LE, why not increase the size or change the format.

16 teams layout was explained in clanbase news.
Number of qualifications was changed in order to keep on schedule (we can't really afford any delays).
Also if we would just keep LE in qualification, there would have to be some other team facing them, and you (community) would argue that it's not fair that LE has to play team XYZ in qualification, similar case already happened.

still quite harsh on teams who have supported clanbase all the time, for teams that show up for a season then leave - I mean nEu are basing all their hopes on noctis not going emo =D

thats just not true..
In HoQ we are on top of the league without dibbe and noctis

i don't look at hoq or igl results seeing as i harldy get to play them :(

so dont judge without knowing the facts

"onfire and d9 direct invites.. they would lose to 6 teams thats in the qualifications. + ek is questionable too"

nor should you :o)

im looking at HoQ, other cups as well

well there is no other leagues for me then clanbase. and maybe 1 or 2 hoq games.. i don't get home early enough for IGL ESL or HOQ

If you want to know about LE, and our qualifications to play in EC ask just about nay active team in QL.
How about you ask gizmo and the guys in aCtion, or guys from sitto, or even guys from nEu, maybe ask play.

You could just ask us, or tell us. There is no real communication here between clans that should be participating in this cup/league and on the topmost level of it.

Just bunch of admins going around a looking at the situation where to cut corners or reduce play time, or team size or anything to the convenience of who? Not clans and players, not players and clans and quakelive enthusiast that will be watching those game.

As I've said, to me nEu deserved that spot, you just dropping us will prolly leave out your competition without another good clan and since there really is no point in pushing around div1 it will leave clans like sitto aCt and play without some good practice matches.

gg

Like I sad before "we cannot follow 50 clans, their A/B/C teams, lineups for every match they play" the same goes about "ask just about any active team in QL". There's just not enough time for that.

If we wanted to "cut corners or reduce play time" we would make EC for 16 teams and 4 groups (like some people are asking), where we would get only 24 games (each team 3 games only) instead of 30 games that we have now (5 games each team) in EC.

I don't like the idea of losing one clan, but you have to understand that we cannot make changes every day when somebody raise his voice. Also I'm sure you know the saying: "You cannot please everyone" which very much applies in this case.

Like I sad before "we cannot follow 50 clans, their A/B/C teams, lineups for every match they play" the same goes about "ask just about any active team in QL". There's just not enough time for that.

That's why you follow the scene and talk to clans that you see most active. Secondly you talk to admins of other leagues and cup ie. you talk to willieBobC who could've told you which clans wanted to play div1 but were placed div2 why didn't they say anything about that, and what is their progress.

If we wanted to "cut corners or reduce play time" we would make EC for 16 teams and 4 groups (like some people are asking), where we would get only 24 games (each team 3 games only) instead of 30 games that we have now (5 games each team) in EC.

And if you really didn't want to cut corners you'd have 2 groups of 8. So i see dropping teams as cutting corners. It's not really fair to any team and you get this kind of reaction because the preparation was bad.
What I'm not hearing here, or seeing is:
admitting to any of oversights done so far.

I don't like the idea of losing one clan, but you have to understand that we cannot make changes every day when somebody raise his voice. Also I'm sure you know the saying: "You cannot please everyone" which very much applies in this case.

That is why you don't just announce teams after a month of picking a stupid last map for map pool. I don't really care if it's dm7 or osp5. Since I'd be better of playing EC than voting for a map other teams will be playing :D

You forgot to do the basic thing:
Check on the clans you find need to qualify, or do some checking into lineups of teams you need to directly invite.

I know it's not easy. You signed up for it. I know it's 50 teams in EC/OC. that's why to do a proper job you do a dedicated guy that checks the 16 teams and only then goes and helps the OC guys.

I wouldn't be telling or giving you so much crap if I had any feeling that this was done properly. or that this isn't a screw up it turned out to be.

If you want to know who is paying the price for having such a lousy preparation and not having the option to budge on your first mistake by limiting the teams and time come to #le.clan, or #Evo.ql or #of, or #ql.uk

I think this is bullshit wision, you dropped one of the most active teams on the QL scene, hell you didnt even give us a chance to maybe prove ourselves.

Considering the HoQ le vs play game we had an agreement with the admin that when we play our match ( postoponed ) it would be corrected in case we won. We won but they didnt change the result at the time you were looking at the site. We won and we played with our B team (kinko,spawnz, dimitrij, chubz) instead of brescia, prodx, kinko, spawnz. Here are some screens that back this up:
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8493/dp3j.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8663/dm202.jpg
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/5343/purg1w.jpg

Note that i dont have anything against play, we just want a shot, but not against a clan like nEu that is one of the candidates of winning the EC. Ask sitto how did our open cup game go last season and what drama it was when they won a few frags on the last map. (2-1)

Don't get me wrong i am not claiming that we are the strongest team around but we just want a chance considering our activity on the QL scene.

I'm sure you won't find a clan from current invitations which would like to play qualification against you _and_ you would like to play qualification against them. This means that if we create another qualification pair, one of the teams won't be pleased. Either way, it's gonna be you arguing around again, or the other team. So the same situation again.

so what you seem to be saying is:
We are sorry quakelive clans involved, but this season we didn't anticipate this much interest so we formed our time limit too soon. And now even though you LE and other teams could and should be playing in EC you won't be!

In another way said:
We had to cut some corners and since you are borderline, although we would like to give chance to you we just can't cause we didn't prepare as much for picking and choosing teams as we did about choosing one lousy map for the map pool.

Or are you just saying, that we are pushing too many buttons for which no one actually has any patience so you'll drop a team no matter what that means anyways.

You should've known about this since half of HOQ div2 to begin with was a contender for div1 spot. And as so many clans were that good in div2 nobody argued about being div2. You practically had 6 EC clans in div2 and 10 EC clans in div1. Also you should've asked HOQ guys how many times did they go around making groups and actually ASKING clans about what is the BEST setup they can RUN!

And I really want to emphasize here how important is this:
Thank you very much for holding EC, thank you for considering us. Thank you for the time you ARE GOING to take admining this league.
Thanks to the clans participation.

But I can't thank you about the preparation, for which you had a month, or for doing the lineups and teams in such a harsh and rash way.

Not really.. what I was saying there is "you cannot please everyone". I hoped you would understand :).

Anyway.. I can't continue to argue about this because I have many other things to do and it seems like you might get your qualification after all, so it's pointless to continue.. just need to talk to your leader.

Sadly I understand your problem, I don't understand your rigidness about it. Neither do many teams here, or people following the scene.

just add coma vs le qualifier for the spot coma has and its a really good compromise for everyone and in my eye its really close to the truth aswell

So we can have LE arguing around about how difficult their qualification is, compared to other qualifications? Or coma arguing that they are better than team XYZ which is invited to EC already and they shouldn't play qualification? I really don't know which one it's going to be.. my guess is the former.

good luck getting someone to read that book dimitri

=D where's xeno? :P we need a 17th clan!! to make things easier

xeno is pretty much dead ofc.. we are active 1 month per year =)

rofl@wision

no reasons, no nothing. le doesn't even get a qualifier.

ahmahgahdmammaijustkilledaman

yet again another clanbase fail.....

EK make it from OC to EC qualifiers
Win the qualifiers and play EC
End in a respectable place
Have to redo playoffs to get into EC

Why even bother playing for clanbase if new clans will just show up and push everyone else aside :D

mamut, dozer, clanbase, direct invite.. coincidence?! :)

Look at other sports. In football nobody cares how you played in the last champions league. They look at the performance in the other leagues. Even the winner is not qualified automatically.

Yeah, how many new football clubs are playing in Champions League?

Depends what you understand under "new". There are new clubs playing CL almost every season. Like they didn't played CL before.

I don't follow football, but isn't it the bottom teams that get relegated and the teams in the divisions below get promoted on their positions? :P - didn't know the premiership was organised due to another tournament? :)

I don't care about mamut's direct invite.

What I care about is that lemmings effect is getting judged by performances made by our B-lineup, despite our B-lineup even defeating play last night when they played with their main team. And even then that performance is counted as a loss, so even if we win, we lose?

Our main team is: spawnz, kinko, brescia prodx and chubz.

We are no worse than any of these teams; sitto, play, ek, mamut, action, D9, onfire, team evolution.

The rest of the teams we simply never played or I don't know their players, or are obviously better.

Yet we don't even get a qualifier, really? It's so sad and I think if any of the teams that have recently played our main lineup have any character, they will agree here.

Like I will say now; Considering EK's past performances in OC and EC, the fact they play a qualifier is a joke.


If this nonsense doesn't get fixed, I won't ever be playing anything on clanbase again. The whole element of competition is out of the window. If we get a shot at it and lose, so be it, but not even getting a shot considering everything is just criminal to one of the most active clans around. Yet this "wision" dismisses "16 clans just ain't gonna happen" when the whole participating scene is asking for it. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

They could add a qualifier between your team and coma! or nEu. You would be happy with this? And will be coma! or nEu happy with that?

There will be always whine of these teams who don't get into EC coz they think my team must be in. You can't be serious to ignore us. etc.

First of all any qualifier is at least an opportunity. The fact that lemmings don't even get a qualifier is just insulting.

Second of all nEu shouldn't be qualifying due to their lineup but even if they did, I am happy to play them because then we at least had a shot.

I took your case to him, it was just met with ignorance in the typical clanbase manner. I'm right you're wrong etc.

Its a bad decision and i am sorry you are left out but it seems playing with your weaker lineup in IGL as we did in HoQ cost us our invite and now we must qualify again. I really hope you guys dont get demotivated and keep playing.

Thanks chris, what to do? Why would I keep playing. I came back to play quake because I love it, but the essential element in Quake is competition. If I can't compete I'm not going to bother playing quake like an addict on my time off.

You're still on eks roster from 2003 ;-)

:D

I swear if we don't at least get a qualifier I want one game raw, and that's against mamut.

I don't care about anything else, just me and trippy against mamut. PLEASE.

Sure we can come to some arrangement! Ek4life remember!

http://www.esl.eu/eu/quakelive/tdm/amc_1/rankings/
http://www.esl.eu/eu/quakelive/tdm/4on4/amc_2/rankings/ (no le?)
http://thek1ng.free.fr/?page=news&id=36
http://houseofquake.com/teams/view/52

What do you expect? Judging your performances by what?
Same goes for EK, at least they had some nice place during last season. (half year ago?)

But feel free to correct me.

Well, the hoq results show

- win against play; play are invited
- 7 frags difference on both maps against coma; coma are invited
- win against 2K; 2K played in last year's EC

Which isn't that bad. I'd also go with frs' suggestion.

It's not that bad but you have to see that teams like coma/dioxide/play were more active when it comes to official achievements.

That's true.

However, the major problem I see when LE are excluded is a contradiction with wision's recent posts here.

He said that "every team who plays in qualification deserves the spot in EC equally".
Yet suddenly, some of these teams (LE and TE) aren't as 'equal' as the others and their chance to qualify is removed.

I don't like how one team deserves a spot in EC 'equally' as much as any other team on one day, and is too bad to get a chance on the next day.

Unfortunatelly you pushed us and we had to do it this way.. also we can't do qualifications for all the teams, can we.

Anyway, LE disagreed to play qualifications themselves in the end.

Lol yeah, right.

And you are saying this to prove what?
If it is to prove that mamut has a place in eurocup, I'm not disputing that, tho we lost 3 frags to you last official game on your home map. After all next time we might even win, a?

Is it to prove that running 1 day cups proves that teams are ready to play on the highest level?
I personally wouldn't agree about that.

Is it to trash talk back to prodx who is trolling you.

if it is all about trolling, then I don't really need to justify myself to a bad isp warper with 40+ accuracies :D

We've got good results in, and we can do better provided we have stable lineup. Guys playing us know this :D

Why do you talk about mamut when I clearly had an intention only to show you where admins checked when they wanted to put teams into EC/Qualifiers?

I believe that one-day cup is actually the best way to show your new/old/whatever lineup if you want to prove(test?) anything. You might have great results, I don't deny it. I think we even lost to you in a pcw lately.
You just have nothing to back it up besides that one official game vs play, plus some lost but close games.

You take it too personal.

I don't remember ever losing to mamut. I guess I wasn't there. /troll

But that's not the discussion now is it? The reason we are making noise is because we want a qualifier against a similar team. That's all.

rly? droping le and advancing dx AND coma just like that? o,O

i'm just asking as a simple viewer a solution, where nobody gets hurt:

plz do showmatch/decider (or +1 qualification match) asap
le - dx OR le - coma, to decide whether or not le deserve to play in EC

ty

Before this all gets lost in the shuffle... here's the deal CB. The community is reaching out offering to admin (not me, but others) and help in other ways to make it possible for the best teams to compete. That's all, a sense of community. Something the quake scene sorely needs and sometimes lacks.

How many years does QL really have left in terms of an activity rate of this many teams? 1?

1 year isn't much longer. 2, 3, maybe. I think part of the outpouring from the community is due to that realization.

Its grass roots, after the backlash of pro only TDM lans. I didn't think this would actually happen. TDM seemed destined to only get smaller. And yet here it is, perhaps for only a short time, as active and with as much parity as I've ever seen (been following QL tdm since 2009).

And seriously, it's 2012. If this were in fact the end of the world? We could get 2 really good seasons in this year with possibility of a truly epic lan. Carpe diem.

And a big thank you to Wision, Dozer, Slajer, and all reps from CB. It is the one organization that no matter all the bs that is warranted and unwarranted has kept QL TDM in the EC. The community thanks you. Please take these points constructively.

Stop buttering up a piss poor decision. Leaving Lemmings out is retarded, simple as that.

And that's also true, just trying to keep some perspective. I appreciate the passion. Quakers for Life. Go with Tony (c).

+1

yea excluding lemmings like that makes no sense.. by doing that u basically are saying that u want them to play oc div1.. which is bad, and sadly im sure they would drop..

expecially considering they are one of the most active team and not only they can take maps from every team but they could even beat a good number of them..

other than that setup #2 looked alright(invites and qualifiers).. but u cant really exclude le this way

yea.. totally forgot, where is my manners, :<

thank you CB (wison, doz3r, Slajer and many others) for still holding up on quakelive,

2nd setup is better than 1st, but if you will fix ''le'' case it will be perfect
how? by making 1 more qualification vs one of advanced from 1st_qualification_list team (such as dx/coma/neu/sitto/play in this order if it can be arranged). i'm sure that almost none of mentioned teams would mind about idea of better team (better nowadays) to compete on EC level, and the other to show some magic on OC div1 level.

p.s. and 12 teams with 2 groups is understandable and acceptable ;)

omg
MAKE IT 16 FUCKIN TEAMSSSSSSSSSSSSS
NO QUALIFICATIONS
JUST 16 TEAMS,STOP.


tony spoken

haha :D bad ass macho attitude sometimes suits you perfectly

I say it again - INCREASE THE TEAMS! :)

Increase teams as this year actually has so many good teams :)
Not possible since some 'not knowing + a none quaker superhouse admins says no?'

My advice is the listen to the teams/community and I'm sure that 'LE' for instance will not finish last! :)

thanks for the confidence vote.

I know it seems like we are overkilling on the fact we won last hoq match, but we need a strong argument :D

It was too close to call, that what matter to me. Taking it by per clan basis and maybe winning a couple of matches not going stale with competition.

gl hf in the cup :D

With 4x4 layout:
- we will get less games in total (24 compared to 30)
- every team will get to play only 3 matches, compared to 5 in group stage
- more low quality games
- EC will have more teams than any other opencup division
- EC will be less interesting

So.. maybe we should just do 10 groups in EC and everyone will be happy? I don't believe that is the correct way..

or 4v4 layout with double elimination brackets? ;)

IIRC doz3r always wanted to do double elimination (also for nations cup), but CB website is broken and we are forced to use single elimination.

that sucks :( - would of been nice double elim..

Thanks from all the clans showing us love. And chubz is right, we don't want to overkill on the fact that OMG WE BEAT PLAY TROLOLOL, but the thing is, we need your support guys. We seem to be needing any and every reason to convince two admins that we are no worse than a bunch of clans in there. Especially play and sitto who we have been practising with so regularly I can't even see senti on a server anymore, and let alone ch4in or Zyrinx.

All the clans that have won and lost against us in recent time that are in that list are vouching for us as they should be. +1 community, -1 Clanbase.

I overheard that LE can't play in clanbase, due to high pings coming from the OC B<

rofl :D

Amazing how close so many teams are now, its really a great time for TDM

This shit went off the hoooooooooook

this is easily the closest and most exciting competition qltdm has had so far, even better than DHS. too bad we wont get LAN playoffs :D im really surprised any retard would say tdm is dead or "its not growing" i still remember starting clanbase and we had 20 teams where 3 of them were true 1 div quality.

16 teams
4 groups of 4
top 2 teams advance
double elim playoffs

gogogo

let *le play for fuck sake... somehow

saying "not enough quality teams for a 16-participant eurocup" and fighting over the last 4 teams to qualify is just wrong imho

Even if you can't fix it for this cup please consider 16 teams for the next!!!!

raw next season starts late anyways. In know most people playing today are oldies but goodies. But I for one need to get my chair rocking by finishing my studies and finding a job. Doubt I'll have soo much time to play after this summer ends :D

LE should be in.
anyway... our qualifier is gonna be hard, mostly due to server search with ucranians...

dabra no one should be giving out anything. or losing a chance to play and have some fun on the deserved level.

The point here is that qualifiers are so random it's not even funny.
PLay lost their qualification vs oF or exelsior even by a few frags, I can't remember who they played.

You could've easily lost such a match too. all it takes is some random luck either side in cases like this.

That is what makes this year special. You have 16 teams of which you have about 12 teams that step on each others toes.

You can replace LE with EK. I am not playing any qualifiers. We were 1/4 finalist last season in EC losing to action by few frags for 1/2 finals. And now we have to qualify for EC? :)

Doz3r, your mental.

dx / sitto and coma have right to be placed directly in EC.

dx / sitto and coma have right to be placed directly in EC.

i mean: no right.

sitto won last div1 OC, so why they got no right to be placed in EC?

EK went tot quarter finals last EC, losing out to action by few frags for semi-finals..And we have to qualify? Where is fairness in that?

well, tbh, there is none. ek should be placed in EC based on last EC perfomancy, as well as Of. , there is no doubt about it. i just said that sitto deserves a spot too :]

that's a really good point ptolemy brings up, sitto aren't even in any other cups... so biased :o)) I'm hoping other teams follow suit and fuck clanbase off till they sort out their rules (and maybe the 1990 website)

pTOLEmy, me and my clan love EK, we played many games with EK, I really doubt that we would agree to play qualifications over you guys. I just don't find this doeable and I hope there is a better solution than this!

as if you guys love raw, no one does, not even EK members! :o)

i can confirm that!

Thanks to everyone that did good by speaking about us in such a way.
Happens to be a great encouragement anyone playing quake can hope for.

As to give a comment on the situation. No one here should be seeing this a forcing admins or forcing anything on CB as such.

The principle here is very simple. You have 16 teams interested and willing to play. You can have areal big EC this year and have disrepute cast many interesting matches. All you need is more time.

So wision, Slajer, doz3r ... what is needed to get more time in? Do we need to write a petition? Do we need to get more admins in?

Also tell me something, with matches by serious teams with people that are working for a living that were re arranged a postponed last year does it hurt that bad having it this year too? It will happen no matter how many or less team you put in. It is going to happen.

So what are the pro's for having 16 teams:
you have more games, done n time in the beginning of season all through out the mid of the season to the end of the groups.
That is where all the complications usually start. Not during the groups, but at the groups end.
You show support and the growth of QL TDM in action
You give clans in div1 something to look forward to and play seriously.
You give newer clans more experience playing against the usual suspects.

What are the cons:
You'll get harassed, and pulled for games time after time.
You'll be in late on the time you shouldn't set in the first place before clearing the whole teams situation, or checking if maybe the public and clan involved are interested in other options.


In the end i'll say it again, it took you guys 3-4 week about 1 lousy map, and you're doing the clans that have to play on those maps, in 3 day fixes and patches.

Yes i realize you are delayed. But doing something good, should be more important that some imposed time constraint we really don't understand.

I did what i could, i gave my suggestions and then woke up and saw the new qualifiers and an email confirming the change. Needless to say.. they look..different.

I did what i could, i gave my suggestions and then woke up and saw the new qualifiers and an email confirming the change. Needless to say.. they look..different.

Yeah, somehow it seems that is how it works. wision would personally like 16 teams, you gave your recommendation, which i have no clue as to what they are. I can only hope they were on track with something as to just let the interested clans play it out.

It seems someone is making headstrong one man decisions and abiding by them to the bitter end.
Eventually buckling about silly points but no real solution anyways.

CB has a tendency to be brash about the subject of the matter. If you don't have clans interested, you don't have a CUP. Since lets face it, many clans are actually interested in the game and are playing THE GAME not the one and only CUP.

http://www.esreality.com/post/2247050/cb-euro...pid2248752

You can't do 2x8, and you won't do 4x4 for:

- we will get less games in total (24 compared to 30)
- every team will get to play only 3 matches, compared to 5 in group stage
- more low quality games
- EC will have more teams than any other opencup division
- EC will be less interesting

- Yes less games, more teams, less time
- Yes 5 games, less teams, more time
- Depends on how you seed teams withing groups, the obvious 1st place is obvious, 2nd place would be a thriller in 3 out 4 groups
- Meaning there is a large body of players playing actively on high level pulling other clans to invest more time
- will be less interesting for who? You've got team and players playing EC since days of early q3. You have new teams playing EC for the first time, you can't anticipate but can hope for upsets and surprises.

What it comes down to is:
You can't really lose a lot with 4x4 and gain plenty
You gain even more by giving up on the rigidness of the time constraint and doing 2x8 since then you have large groups in which teams have to play a lot of games and win a lot of games to even get to finals where they will do it all over again.

You just won't realize one thing. You've put yourself in a position, where even if you wanted to do 2x8 which would be best solution you can't. You won't, and what is worse by trying to remedy situation and fix and patch the lineups you only do what you can because you can't do what's right.

I never said that I wanted to do 2x8.. to me 2x6 is perfect for EC (in current situation). Also, please highlight the stuff we will gain from 4x4 (compared to 2x6), I just fail to see it.

yeah, you didn't say that, and as far as you're considered you've got your perfect solution, the problem is with your solution you leave teams in a stupid situation.

People here like, tony, like purri, like many of us are telling you that your chosen solution is wrong.
We're saying the right solution is 16 teams.
The rest is up to you:
2x8
4x4

we don't care :D

2x8 or 4x4 compared to 2x6:
You gain 4 more clans to compete.
You gain more players active on highest level in your cup.
You gain closer matches and better games for finals.
You gain fresh blood and more diversity for EC clans and lineups.
You reward playing actively and progressing in CB OC
You solve the situation where clans feel robbed out of games that they can easily play and contend on.

not good enough?

for god's sake, if any clan now drops, offering their spot is creating bad blood situation between teams that normally play and practice against each other. Teams which support each other.

It seems that when you say that we don't understand you, you really have no clue what you've been asked to do by 5 different parties involved here. Do 2x8 or 4x4. Anything else is a half arsed poor fix up that serves no real purpose since to do it differently you put clans like EK-of in situation they shouldn't be in by the standards we're asking for.

good luck to everyone in eurocup..

Yeah .. I added a little image to describe my sentiment.

I hate this. Teams getting BSed over something like timeframe.

It's sad that one of the most active teams can't get a chance to play in EC, they improoved a lot lately I think (tbh haven't played their whole team yet, but I know them individually) Would be nice to let them show the underdog can bite. ; )

WOW ALMOST 200 COMMENTS ABOUT CLANBASE, WHO SAID QUAKE WAS DEAD

i dont know what the big fuss is about. atleast to me its obvious which teams from last EC are doing worse right now, and if xt was going 0-6 or 0-7 in hoq i wouldnt expect us to get invited to EC and much less would refuse to play a qualifier out of pride. if your slump is due to having to play with b-lineups you shouldnt have trouble winning a qualification game since all your best players should be there. EC spots should never be taken for granted, supposed to be the premier elite serie anyway?

only problem with the suggested qualifiers right now is ek-of game which puts 2 ex-EC teams against each other. it should be ex-EC team vs new team to EC. if it was up to me i'd do the almost exact thing cb admins have done now, except change the qualifiers to ek-le, d9-skillz, of-coma, or something similar. up coming teams like coma and le really deserve their qualifiers to EC since they have been playing so actively and doing well, especially coma.

I really agree about coma, they showed some incredible games recently. And don't come of with an attitude. A nice and good team to play against.

But I wouldn't be so hard on EK either, since they might have miscalculated on HOQ times as they've said and ended up fielding b - squad. I know xt can understand that since you guys had some problem with your lineup and activity finally resolved with adding winz and finding some stability in that.

They are saying that playing EC they would be able to field a team as strong as last years if not stronger. that is the point here.

EC was supposed to be something done with more care and as one of the oldest and longest lasting great competitions done without prizes, and done for the repour it brings to teams in it, should've been prepared more carefully.

if they can bring their a-lineup they shouldnt have any problem passing a qualification game vs a reasonable opponent from a lower div. and of the teams returning from last EC the 3 lowest were ek, d9 and of and on top of that they arent doing that great atm. i really dont see why they would be above playing a qualifier game

why attack ek so badly, your team is now considered higher then ours due to winz :)

i'll swap you raw for winz! : D

im not really attacking anyone specifically and it has nothing to do with ek, i'd apply the same logic to every clan. to me it seems clear that new teams get a chance to qualify and the old teams from ec that arent doing so well need to prove they deserve their spot. if xt was going 0-6 or 0-7 in hoq right now i'd definately expect the need to qualify for EC, or atleast questions why we were invited

it's cool, I just don't like the abuse at ek :[

I like all the clans in EC at the moment and i'm excited to watch, a lot more then playing. GL m8, now my fav team LE aren't in it i'll be supporting xt.. go gerppa!

Just win all your games and win CB Eurocup Tournament.
Stfu and play (c) evolution

GETTING FUNNIER AND FUNNIER

as far as i understood ek have pulled out so things should be ok with EC now... not sure why everyones still going on ;p

pulled out = like... they won't participate? :D

yep

What i ment was, read frs post.

STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE! :DA

quake community is sad... we would have played the qualifier, even with noctis dibbe etc

I think that the complaints are more about the fact that the admins' decisions are neither transparent nor consistent.

At first they are like
"We have to invite D9 again even though they lost all their matches in the last 2 EC seasons"
then they are like
"Oh whatever, we'll just have 3 former EC teams play qualification matches, even some who were quite successful in the last EC"


At first they are like
"We can only invite teams into EC who played there before; all other teams have to qualify"
then they are like
"Oh whatever, we'll even invite some who are completely new to CB like COMA"


At first they are like
"It's ok that sitto and play have a qualification match against each other, because every team is equal"
and then they are like
"Oh wait, some of them aren't as equal as the others. We'll just remove LE from qualification because we feel like it."

Problem is its never good for all teams, everyone is so whiny.
Look what it become, its never good, first thing was good for Le, but now they whine... i mean come on..
Be happy that there are cups and leagues like this instead of whining. If you are that good, show it in qualification instead of whine. I wasnt happy about the fact that we had to qualify, but we would have played anyway instead of some teams who think they are top of europe, have to qualify and just drop out. How sad is that, to all of you

FUCK YOU fucking quake community

wern't you whining like a week ago when you had to do a qualifier? :) - the admining of CB is bad, it always has been. I still remember dozer saying in a praccy game after mamut lost on hidden fortress.. "we'll never have this in clanbase"

rofl what? I wasnt agreeing with the fact that we had to play a qualifier but it never crossed my mind that we were gonna drop out just because we had to play a qualifier? I would have played it...

I wanna play Quake in a league, thats the only thing that matters, this is just sad how people react because they think they are fucking amazing and awesome so they wont play a qualifier? Please, if you are that good, show it in the qualifier instead of dropping out like a pussy.

Why the sudden attitude? We dropped out of this due to the way clanbase handled it. Taking certain teams off direct invites and putting them into qualifiers and then completely removing teams in the qualifiers and EC.

You could put it down to a principal thing...

There's hardly much difference between:

EK, LE, TE, COMA, PLAY, DX, MAMUT, ACTION, SKillz United, D9, DM.

Anyone of those deserved a spot in EC.

None the less enjoy your league, 3 teams pulling out isn't really going to hurt it.. there's a total of 15 teams still plausable to be in EC. So less of your elitist attitude comments and enjoy clanbase =)

So now you're saying that we shouldn't listen to you people in the first place when you complained about first version of invites/qualifications? I see..

No, the problem is you didn't think about it =) - I'd reccomend getting a few individuals together who are in no way biased to teams and redoing it again. One person doing it themselves is a bit crazy.

Well.. considering I mentioned both ways from the start, I'm sure I thought about it. About redoing things.. of course I'm trying to come up with better system for next season, to avoid this kind of fuzz. I wanted to do public draft, but chosing couple of neutral people sounds good as well.

you made a cock up twice..

first time you stuck sitto and play in qualifiers after raping OC..

the community whined, so you stuck all the teams in different places by putting teams as direct invites after not even playing last season, when teams were signed up from last season who did well :)

You basically got PM's on irc and followed suit.

man, where this comes from? I find it sad that teams drop out just because they think its not fair that they have to play qualifiers? How sad is that, omg

And if u, out of those teams. got an invite its good, but if u had to play a qualifier it isnt? U cant give all those teams an invite can you?

the way i see it is still the same from the first post of teams...

(do correct me if this sounds wrong)

sitto + play direct invites .. based on last seasons OC

and obviously

Le, Evo, neu, skillz, dx, coma in qualifiers due to either being a team that hasn't played in ec/oc last season or their respective positions from last season.

what about of?
anyways, decision is made, if we had to play qualifier we would have done it, put ur pride away and play

it's not about pride, does ek strike you as a team that has pride ?? You go ahead and play your games and forget any other team around.

Never said that,
anyway its still your decision to not play because you are in the qualifier, for me thats kinda sad and dissapointing

nm

gooda, first thing is first, you also played a lot of games with trippy, raw and EK in general, you know that they are good.
Even tho you might dislike them personally (or not?), tell me now, would it be plausible if someone just came and said, they are pulling out, so their spot is yours, for you to take their spot.

The unfair situation from the start just went bananas with you having someones back, or not. You obviously don't, we do.

lol

I'm quite sure I explained everything from the start. I mentioned two ways of creating invitations/qualifications, you didn't like the first one, so we went with the second one (which you wanted us to use).

I'm sure if you read the comments carefully, you'd find we wanted the options that you weren't prepared in having anyways.

ie:
tony's 16 teams :D

Hi. D9 was there because:

Rules (*you have been accepted it when you signup*):

1.3 (http://clanbase.ggl.com/rules.php?lid=12667#chap_1574)

"3.Clans are selected for EuroCup participation based on their *stability* (i.e. the ability to complete leagues) and their strength as proven by official match results (or the results of their players in other clans). **Practice results are irrelevant**. Unproven clans will only be considered if their players have completed competitions with top clans before.

***** To broaden the international appeal of the EuroCup, the best clan of country A ***may get*** preference over the nth best clan of country B*****."


I think maybe there are a few clans better than d9 without direct inv. but maybe good have d9 there...

GL ALL
iZZi

16 teams and 2 new admins plz

orly? how about 0 teams and no EC?

if u keep removing teams for no reason that might just happen =)

lemmings effect has also officially dropped from both EC and OC until this situation is resolved in a manner that is respectful to all clans and befitting an organisation with the kind of history that clanbase has.

Our alternative was to take a direct invitation for eurocup after both ek and onfire decided not to play a qualifier match because of reasons best explained by them. We like both of these clans and we go way back with them, especially ek. If they feel wronged we shall not be the one's taking their place, especially when we feel we should have had a qualifier of our own in the first place.

The sad thing is that all of this could have easily been prevented by organising enough qualifier matches as it is or expanding the groups. Maybe we'll have better luck next time. To all participating in the EC: GL HF.

/backtotrolling

rofl, so sad. please explain to me why of for example should be directly invited? they qualified last time (barely), came 4th in their group and out of all the teams returning for EC they were the second 'worst' and on top of that they are currently 1-7 (only beating EK) and EK will probably go 0-8 in hoq div1. just because you qualify once it doesnt mean your spot is granted for every future EC. it is supposed to be the best teams playing and its obvious both of them are on the thin line between div1 and div2 currently and this is based on results and not on 'what if' situations. i like them afterall but seriously this is just bullshit drama you guys are pulling off, everyone who is reasonable about the situation can see why EK and of need to qualify again and why a team like nEu doesnt have to. from what i talked to wision, all 3 ek, of and le were offered a qualification game vs d9, skillz and 1 more team, but refused. so fucking sad.

if they are so good it shouldnt be any trouble passing a qualification game. im completely baffled as to why the lower div1 doesnt need to play vs high div2 for their spots

Hold up brother.

All lemmings effect was ever asking for was a qualification game (drama started when we got dropped completely). We have never refused to play a qualifying match, that is simply not the truth.

I don't care why ek or of should or should not be invited, that's their business. We however would rather not get mixed into that drama. We're not blaming clanbase for that, it is our own choice now not to participate. The only initial problem, for me and the rest of the group, was that we were dropped from playing a qualifying match.

Whatever merit it has or doesn't have to directly invite ek or of shouldn't be discussed with me, that's not my business. What you say makes sense, I was just highlighting le's perspective on the whole situation and the reasoning behind us rather not being involved in this way. No hard feelings as far as we're concerned. At the end of the day we're arguing on the internet and it's just not worth it anymore. There will be other seasons where things will go smoother and we'll just continue playing in some other leagues.

eh, you were offered a qualification game at first, once it got removed in the second draft EVERYONE agreed that you deserve one and i immediately went and talked with wision. in that timeframe ek had already dropped out and their qualification game spot was going to be offered to you. some time later of dropped aswell so you wouldnt even have to play a qualification game since there werent enough clans.

you're not doing anyone a service by dropping out and being part of this bullshit drama which is basicly 2 clans throwing a shitfit because they have to play a qualification game which is completely justified with the combination of the birth of new top div1 clans and their current performance

Now you see, that's exactly the point. If lemmings had not been dropped from qualifiers in the first place, what you say makes sense and we simply would have played our qualifier against whomever and be happy with the opportunity. However the decision was made that apparently we were not suitable for EC even with a qualifier, and that was it for lemmings.

Now the situation arises where both of and ek have a dispute with clanbase, and now there seems to be a use for lemmings in the EC after all. We do not want a freebie into the EC and I for sure don't want to play EC just because ek and of dropped out. If we play EC it is because we damn well belong there and if that's not the case at the moment, then so be it.

And all we're saying is; if that's the way in which lemmings is allowed to participate, we would rather not participate this season. I'm very sorry if this causes inconvenience, but I am sure clanbase will find a clan that is more than happy to play EC, it will just not be lemmings this season. We'll try to get in next season by playing other leagues.

you must have been the top of the drama class :D

It's called having a sense of right and wrong and acting accordingly. Bear in mind this is not only my view, this is the consensus we have reached within our clan. I'm not just farting my own view here. And yes I'm fucking good at drama. :D

im sure you could have gotten a qualification game vs d9 or skillz if you asked instead of just going with the drama before seeing the thing to the end

Getting a quali versus any of those two would have more than sufficed. Any quali would have more than sufficed. We didn't chose to be dropped and until today, there were no intentions to change that from CB side.

You had your chance for qualification and instead of taking the part, you gave us an ultimatum. Things doesn't work that way.

Wision, that's just not right! We are glad that we had qualifications in the first version. But the truth is (and i'm talking just from my point of view) that the first thing i tought was: "Cmon they give us to play qualifications against:
- the clan that is most likely to win EC
- the clan that DESERVES a direct invite in EC"

We went TS and watched live nEu vs 102, and we've already started to prepare for that "mission impossible", and we DIDN'T give up from that qualifications.

In the second version you dropped us like we are a bunch of biggest noobs that don't support the scene or play nothing, and afterward when some clans gave up their spots, you offered it to us like we're again biggest-noobs-that-don't-support-the-scene-or-play-nothing!

I think we all know we're not what you think of us and we don't deserve to be treated like that!

I'm sorry that you got such impression.. I don't think of you that way.

cool then why concentrate all the changes as caused on lemmings. I don't see only lemmings raising some noise here about groups and qualifications.

Please don't forget that you (LE) didn't like the first version of qualifications and invitations. You were one of those who enforced the change. Your qualification was dropped because of time constraints.

Lemmings Effect as a group barely even discussed the qualifications. We can dislike our opponent in our qualification all we want, still doesn't change that our qualification is deserved and just.

And isn't whining about who you play against in a qualification where you are trying to prove that you -are- good enough to play in a competition kind of contradictory? I didn't see spawnz, brescia, chubz, myself or kinko complaining in this topic about our opponents for the qualifier. Even though I do agree with drki and chubz that it is kind of pointless for nEu to be qualifying due to their lineup.

But as I said before; it's alright. Nobody should be angry, I think we'll come to a solution next season. I don't think the admins wanted this either, it just seems to me that some things were not very coordinated and because of that things didn't work out.

As I recall it nobody liked the first version of qualifications.
Sitto - play - le- i don't know about the other guys.

I can tell you why I personally disliked the qualification table:
It ran two last years best div1 clans against each other, and ran third best div1 clan against a lineup of 8 ex EC players.

As I've said that is nonsense.

After that the drop came in. As you've said here:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2247050/cb-euro...pid2248759
You'd hoped we'd understand, that was for 2 days until ek dropped out
Suddenly as prodx said, we're contenders.

Well I'd like to have it both way and eat it too :D

"If we play EC it is because we damn well belong there" Proove it on a quali game against D9! ; )

What is it with you and your soap box try being on the receiving end of a clanbase bull shit decision. Infact you probably would be if you hadn't recruited winz.

For what its worth we felt a little wronged by the decision, one of my players felt so wronged by it whilst mamumt get an invite he didnt want to play, so to stick together we took the action we did. Part of my reasoning behind this was it was fuck-tard-stupid to just drop lemmings out when they would quite easily on their day give any of the teams in the current pool a run for their money.

In HoQ we had the weakest lineup we could field and rather than drop out to "save face" or whatever we got on with it. It didnt help that our fixtures were the difficult way round where as Mamuts fixtures were the opposite end of the scale, they are no better than us but because HoQ fixtures had a lot of their easier games first its ok to drop us down to a qualifier? Also no surprises that when our first team played 102 we had a very close game, the same team who took aCtion to pieces just a few days ago.

if winz didnt join and if we went 0-8 in hoq i wouldnt think its bullshit we would need to qualify for EC instead of getting a direct invite

You wouldn't even compete in HoQ if you wouldn't have a strong lineup. We are getting punished for trying to stay active.

Again: we were close to semi-finals last EuroCup and now we have to play qualifiers? What has coma done in EuroCup?

Stop with your bullshit.

wouldnt compete? considering we've taken part in every single cup and league we could have and we signed up to play this one without winz just the same, i call bs. you are not punished for staying active, you're 'punished' because you didnt do well

coma hasnt done anything in EC, however they've put out consistant progress and good results over the last 6 months and one thing that the community wanted was not only basing invites on EC but on the overall results of the teams lately

So you'd prefer clans to go inactive and not to compete in any league, just so they dont screw up results? You are really clever.

nice logic there buddy. it seems you are afraid that you wont pass the qualifier even with your best lineup, which would only prove that you shouldnt be directly invited or why is it such a problem if the 0-8 or whatever result in hoq is just because of your b-lineup?

to me its clear as day that no one's spot is granted in the EC and those whose results currently arent that good need to qualify, even if they have qualified before. if you want to play and dont do well, dont be surprised if you are judged by those results. like i've said several times, if we didnt win a single game in hoq i would expect we would need to qualify

Pieces like this bro: http://www.houseofquake.com/matches/view/221 Problem? : )

The way I see it is, EK got invited to go straight into eurocup, All was good and we were focussed on getting the team back on track, we even went to the sad lenghts of organising practice nights (even with the loss of our star q50 :<) - Then we got demoted to a qualifer after other teams whine, which we felt hard done by.

At this point EK were a little frustrated and upset by it and after a long discussion in the team we decided it's best just to give up our spot.

It seems in afterthought EK would of been better not signing up to HOQ due to losing q50, myself and garpy having weird time schedules and ptolemy on his emo trips. But we did, in the hope to form a new team. As far as I've understood this didn't work out xD - so we've forced ourselves to put in the effort as our normal 4 with the addition of anahimself_ :o)

this

prodx stop cry. If u really good, u will show this at quali.
And I don't know any tournament where you would show good game.

http://gifsoup.com/view4/2101092/that-escalated-quickly-o.gif

For EC that's a very weak lineup anyway, what a stupid drama.

Lets do a mini league between the non directly invited clan all forced in a single intense week.
the first 2 go to eurocup :)

http://clanbase.ggl.com/news_league.php?lid=12667
so... we are back on stage 1? :\ holy mother of... are you kidding me? MAKE UP YOUR MIND

rofl

Here we go again :D

lets rewind this topic then and start over?

Go go immune good to see a team from blighty back in action

Thanks for your clarification Wision.

/Edited

Sorry for misunderstanding.. we hid the news until the qualifications are set. Those 10 direct invites which were there before are still correct (4k, xt, coma, sitto, dx, 102, mamut, action, neu, play). News will be published again, when qualifications are set.. that should be in couple of hours. Sorry for misunderstanding again.

EDIT:
Qualifications are done.

Which qualifications? :"D


Joke admins.

These.

How nice of LE.

love how the community sticks together on matters... remember it's the more leagues we need not teams!

Community does indeed stick together.. but I don't see any reason why would anyone stick with some clan which is too proud to do the qualification (it's probably not how you feel, but it does look this way).

Nothing to do with being proud. We are just being screwed by clueless admins.

From Doz3r's point I can understand. How has always been dodgy, unfair and dumb in general.

But your argumention just blew my mind. Even worse than dozer.

*claps*

Always complaining about any decision but never want to be an admin coz you could be also... stop, let me say in your words 'dodgy, unfair and dumb'

Why there are people who think they are able to make better decisions as an admin instead of get the admin position themselves?...

Ah, i know. It's just bcs they don't like to get criticised. You should be proud that someone do that job. What would you do if noone cares to be an admin? No admin, no cups/leagues. If you think so then go and play public in future.

How ever no one minded LE and TE just got dropped? =) - Like I've said before we pulled out because of the messed up situation and LE being removed.. sadly LE went back on us and ended up fking us too.

Like i suggested the first time which seemed fair in my honest opinion:

4k, xt, mamut, act, DM, ek sitto, play - direct invite
LE, NEU, OF, D9, Skillz, TE, dx, Coma - playoffs

This looks fair to me based on the fact the direct invites played the previous season and did well, with sitto and play progressing from OC to EC and the playoffs being teams that didnt' take part or did ok in last OC and have showed in improvement.

Obviously now you've changed the setup 3 times you can't change it again, But surely you can see that teams who have supported clanbase all the time get shafted. (of, ek)

Hey Luke,

That's complete and utter tosh. First of all, I was in discussions with raw over teamspeak as all the decisions were being made precisely because I would rather drop out than play a qualifier which was not ours in the first place but between ek and of.

Now consider that when lemmings got contacted for a direct invite into the eurocup, lemmings refused that invitation because it was for a slot not meant for us in the first place. We have told wision that the ek/of deal should be sorted out with ek and of and that lemmings will not be involved in any "solution" resulting from that, precisely because we showed solidarity with EK.

I discussed all this with raw and have made clear to wision that the only way we will participate is through a qualification against any clan with that qualification purely being meant for lemmings and completely separate of the ek and of situation. Now, I agree that with the results from previous season ek should be invited directly, but that's a situation I can't influence and it is too much to ask for 6 to 7 guys to completely drop the EC idea when EK actually had and possibly still has the opportunity to participate if they so choose through a qualifier.

In the end of the day, I agree with you (and your list of invites and qualifiers). I personally directly refused playing a qualifier in your place and taking a direct invite for lemmings in the ek/of spot. What more could you expect, mate? Bear in mind all of this was done in co-op with raw because the whole POINT of it was not to stab ek in the back. He agreed as well and didn't see any problem us participating in a completely seperate qualifier which was our request from the get-go in the first place. The call was more or less made by raw man.

The point you make about clanbase admins is definitely something to be discussed because the whole problem originated in them not being organized enough to accomodate the teams that are good enough to play qualifiers and others to receive direct invites. This drama could have been prevented from clanbase side if their work was done properly as well, but sadly we've seen now as in the past that that's not always the case.

I'm a little dissapointed in your comments there because you know us well enough to know we won't cum on your face unless you ask us too.

I didn't mean a direct comment at LE, it was more aimed at all ql teams:o)

you know i'm still an LE mascott.

Our work was done properly. Nobody convinced me otherwise yet.

wision u should take care of the small community quake got, as dozer said last season. you cant make it worse next season, just make it better.

I read most of the comments here, but not all....

It shouldn't really matter where the team comes from "Hoq Leagues, Clanbase, etc" it should matter on: who placed where in previous events in the last 6-8months and what the scene is like NOW. It seems like this wasn't done here.

Really sad that EK dropped due to all this non-sense, considering how they did last EC. The only english clan in there - should of been a direct invite just on that fact alone; diversity negroneses.

Still, without that - there's going to be some nice games in here.


*EDIT* if deus and co couldn't do it.....


:b