@ShootMania @_Driezzz you don't even know if it's going to be this summer, autumn, whatever?

25 May ShootManiaş@ShootMania

@crackenmusic @_Driezzz Beta will be there when it'll be ready, not before, that's why i can't give an ETA.

Some of the usual susepcts already have the game, so they'll be playing like bosses the day it comes out.

I HATE time fraggers.

What is stopping you from getting a key?

Time fraggers only exist to you because you don't understand what talent is.

There's no such thing as "talent".

Deliberate practice.

For sure you've never competed with talented people.

Like I said; there's no such thing as "talent". So you're right, I haven't competed with "talented" people. However, I know people and I've competed with people who are at the very top in the world in several fields and it's mind blowing how much they've been practicing, the way they utilize deliberate practice to reach their goals and not to mention the mental part required to become one of the best in the world.

So yeah, "talent" is bullshit and every top world class performer in any field will agree cause they know what it takes to become what they are. Years and years of perfect practice makes perfect.

"Talent" it just a made up word for lazy and unambitious people so that they can say "well, I wish I could be as good as that guy but I'm not talented so I will always be just an average joe".

talent does exist, and more than practice what matters the most are education, thinking about the activity and training. Practice by its own won't get you to a decent level in anything.

No it doesn't. There's no fucking way you'll get me to change my mind.

What I'm ranting about is DELIBERATE PRACTICE. Not mindless practice.

yes it does. Haven't you seen 2 persons doing something for the first time? Or kids with more long term memory than the rest?

obviously talent by its own is not what got them there nor what has the most influence, but it does make things easier.

Haven't you seen 2 persons doing something for the first time?

Many times and that's the result of different life experiences which either makesit easier or harder to perform something new for the very first time. Not "talent".

Or kids with more long term memory than the rest?

Long-term memory storage can be improved so obviously children with higher long-term memory has been exposed to activities that improves their long-term memory storage. Not "talent".

Lets put an example. 6 year old kids driving a gokart for the first time, without riding anything with wheels before. In that case previous life experiences won't get you the feeling of grip needed to be good at it, yet differences between kids are immense.

There's also the fact countless people are trying 24/7 to become a professional soccer player, yet lots simply don't make it and no one's nowhere near messi (who had shitty trainers in his youth yet he was called a prodigy) or maradona for a better example.
Or do you really think messi is the most hard worker and better trained soccer player of all time?

and btw don't pull a jamerio. Tell us in which fields you "competed with people who are at the very top in the world" and back up that claim (links).

Lets put an example. 6 year old kids driving a gokart for the first time, without riding anything with wheels before. In that case previous life experiences won't get you the feeling of grip needed to be good at it, yet differences between kids are immense.

Guess what, I took my driving license in less than a week and I had never driven a car before I entered the driving school. The theory course and 3 driving lessons took 5 days to complete. Am I talented? No at all, I used to play a lot of racing games (with wheel, gas and clutch pedals) when I was younger. I bet there's some kind of equal explanation for a 6 year old being good at drivng a gokart for the first time.

Or do you really think messi is the most hard worker and better trained soccer player of all time?

Don't know shit about soccor or messi but I'm sure it's not talent that made him who he is.


I almost pulled a jamerio. I don't claim being good or a world top performer in anything. However I know people in person who are and that's how I know exactly how much time they've invested in becoming as good as they are in their field. That's why I'd say it's an insult to claim that people in the top are there because they're talented.

Henrik Lundqvist, NY rangers being one of them. Used to practice goal tending with him until he got ridiculously good and became a professional.

Sorry, no links. So I guess I'm Jamerio'ing after all? Whatever.

at least you recognized you Jamerio'd. He still hasn't in more than 10 years.

go-karts are a good example since that's a typical case in which people are "talented". Knowing grip levels matters a lot in racing and only very few have a "natural" sense of it the minute they hop into a racing car, and others learn it from experience (finnish people).

I want to know your opinion about intellectual geniuses, which is people that simply learn and comprehend miles faster than the rest, as it's a very known fact they exist. Aren't they talented or gifted?

Do you really think all people are born with same capabilities, so there can't be more or less talented persons in certain areas?

I think there is a big difference between what people call talent and intellectual giftedness.

Being intellectual gifted is something you're born with. You can't obtain it like a skill.

Wheras "talent" is something you're not born with, hence it doesn't exist. "Talent" is something you can improve by years of deliberate practice.

That seems like a made up distinction. Just from popular knowledge talent does mean you are born with it, and most people aren't talented. Being intellectually gifted means you have a talent to learn theoretical things faster.

And again. Do you really think all people are born with the very same physical and mental capabilities? Of course that's not the case. Everyone's has an affinity towards certain activities based on their DNA, thus having an easier time doing certain things for the first time regardless of their previous experiences. Some people have such "talent" they are called "talented" or that they have a gift to do something.


As I said at the beginning, I do agree work matters a lot more than talent, and I also agree that only retards call all the best performers "talented" people.
I just don't agree on your position that talent supposedly doesn't exist at all, to the point I (and everyone else on the planet) think everyone has different capabilities and that geniuses/gifted/talented people do exist.
For example Kasparov is a certified genius that had huge talent towards chess. Britney Spears has been called talented but she's a hard working idiot, and Jamerio....well, he's plainly untalented.

Maybe you have different meaning of this word in Swedish but in English as well as in Polish talent means:
natural aptitude or skill (following Oxford online dictionary).
Natural contrary to aquired. Although in old Polish it used to mean aquired skills too I believe.

Not to go against your main point, but

Lets put an example. 6 year old kids driving a gokart for the first time, without riding anything with wheels before. In that case previous life experiences won't get you the feeling of grip needed to be good at it, yet differences between kids are immense.

The biggest difference is usually how hard they try. Especially in any new, different activity.

The higher the talent, the less mindful practice you need.

(i agree that mindless practice doesnt helps, but talent exists for sure)

It's funny how most people in the top of their fields never mention themselves being talented. It doesn't exist. I'd go as far as saying that someone in the top of their field is talented and that their talent has something to do with their achievements is an insult of their hard work and dedication throughout their whole life.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/fre...tePractice(PsychologicalReview).pdf

Happy reading.

guess you aren't talented enough to link websites

http://tinyurl.com/5v4ak9

Happy now?

sry youre wrong talent exists

No. Geniuses don't exist. There's no fucking way you'll get me to change my mind.

She's intellectual gifted not talented.

Would you call a savant talented?

lol that's retarded. comparing a 4 year old, or anyone else in mensa for that matter, with hawking based on a silly test. if anything it backs up the argument in favor of effort. his score on whatever test that tabloid cares about is a lot lower as a percentage of the population than his actual work. and the numbers that article quotes are probably made up anyway.

They don't mention it because they don't realize other people are unable to acquire the skill with the same rate.

Talent determines how high your skill-level can get, and it sure exists. Some guy can get ubergood with x amount of practice when some other guy can't get there even with an infinite amount of practice.

That some guy who is uber good knows how to practice wheras the other guy with an infinite amount of practice don't. That's what deliberate practice is all about. It's not talent.

What's the difference between talent and inherent ability to be able to get more from practice in certain skill than other people?

because calling it talent implies that it's an inherent genetic property within the individual, when it's likely just shit picked up subconsciously from good habits developed as a child.

learning and studying algebra and beyond at a young age is easily doable and teaches the act of processing information algorithmically. this kind of thinking is constantly applied in quake, so it wouldn't be surprising to see that if 2 kids learning the game, that one that has been homeschooled to calculus would have an easier time developing the skills for the game versus someone going to public school.

good work ethic habits like staying focused, not giving up, not being a bitch when things get hard are all things that can be ingrained into a kid's head, and would give him the habits exactly needed to develop good "gamer development" habits.

I can't speak for the person you're talking to, I've thought about the nature vs nurture topic for long periods of time.

First of all, it has been shown pretty well, that there is no "nature vs nurture". There is always x% nature + (100-x)% nurture, which means that pretty much to every aspect of what and how well a human does is partly predetermined by genetics, and various research with identical twins shows that this genetic part for most things is usually something like 30 to 60 percent.

Second, genes define how very complex organism is constructed by using comparatively small amount of data, so it is quite easily possible that sometimes inherited genes line up in certain very specific combination that constructs our brain in a way that turns out to be much more optimal to acquire and master specific skills, while most people don't have that particular genetic sequence and therefore their brains are not inherently optimized for that kind of skills. This is how evolution always worked, and simply because of random lucky genetic mutation, species were able to attain new skills that were not possible before. Can you teach an ape to express thoughts in language? No, you can't, no matter how much effort you put to teaching and ape puts to learning. But humans can pretty much effortlessly learn to speak a language, and the only difference between humans and apes is the genetic data that is used to construct organism. This is of course, a difference that arose over many generations with many mutations happening, but on smaller scale, those mutations are also happening, and they certainly affect the capabilities of our brains to deal with various things.

For example, there are people with learning disabilities, who just simply cannot learn certain things like writing. There just isn't a capacity in their brain for some activities. It has been shown that many such disabilities are of genetic origin. There are also people that have anomalous "abilities" that normal people like you and me won't be able to learn, no matter how much effort we apply. Let's say, synesthesia - when people can see sounds or taste words or things like that - I'm pretty sure you agree that you cannot train yourself to perceive world like this even if you practice for your whole life. Normal brains just don't have "circuitry" that's connected in such way.

So, I think it's absolutely no question that genetic differences can produce various differences in brain structure that affect capabilities to learn and perceive certain things, and I think there is no reason to believe that those things are only limited to highly noticeable and dramatic anomalies like synesthesia, and cannot be just some more subtle structural differences that make brains in some people optimized for tasks that are used in playing Quake, for example.

> genes define how very complex organism is constructed by using comparatively small amount of data,

Small amount of data? lol genetic code in dna is a fucking library of libraries. The size of dna is small comparatively to the organism, but the amount of data is outstanding.

Now what does comparatively mean?

You tell me please...

It means that I am not talking about the amount of data in DNA, but about the amount of data in DNA compared to some other amount of data - in this case, the amount of data required to store positions and states of each atom in an organism.

There's no difference because none of them exists.

Being able to get the most out of pratice is a skill as well and it involves a very high amount of repetition, self-observation and self-reflection. All of which you can improve by practice.

Now, if you can sustain and very high level of mental focus while practicing those things and if you can get continuous feedback from someone who is a lot better than yourself and you're basically what people call "talented".

Except you're not. You're someone who knows how to utilize deliberate practice.

Why no ape can learn to speak, yet any human baby does it automatically and effortlessly?

Are you seriosuly asking why apes can't learn human speech?

I'm done replying to you.

Don't you think that if our statements are in contradiction, we first need to find some baseline starting assumptions that we both find correct, so that we can then establish, which of our conclusions do indeed logically follow from those assumptions and which are plain bullshit?

nope doesn't depend on the quality of practice, the ubergood can have worse practicing methods and so on and still beat the hell out of others praccing hardcore@seriousmode

Sure it does. If you don't know how and what to practice how are you suppose to improve?

ubergood talented player can just casually play and get awesome without too much effort

For people interested I hear the E3 Tournament players get their keys today. SOPA players and the other french LAN get theirs on Thursday, there's rumor that if you signed up on the site to get a BETA key, you might get one Thursday, but I'm not sure about that since the game is still alpha.

This could be true, i got a key yesterday but apparently gotta wait day or two to actually be able to download the game or so.

How did you get a key?

Via Crossfire.nu , a french guy posted a thread them wanting ET players as a beta testers, and now there are some amount of keys given out to players, who all be given out the same quotes as i posted previously.

interesting

How come?

well for calling you, I mean an W:ET player, to beta test game. it kinda means they want to explore some different 'fields' of play styles, maybe theres more to the game then it seems.

You got that e-mail today? And that's really interesting, haven't heard them posting like that anywhere else. Get me a key please? :D

I got a pm from the guy with a key and with a instruction what to do yesterday, same as some others ( i know couple of who also did apply into it and got key via forum like me )

Apparently none of us cant acces the download link yet since we havent been added into the right group or something like that.

I really dont know more about it, seems legit though, but will see in couple days.

Sounds good, from what I've heard there is no NDA on it, so if that is true then you should post info and screens and such :D

Once i get the game itself, sure if there is no anything against it.

Apparently the guy who gave me they key is a guy who works as a artist for Nadeo so i actually believe this is all true what he says.

^ googled him little bit

Just saw someone who got the game for the E3 tournament coming up tweet this: "I'm not allowed to talk or show any footage of Shootmania. Stay tuned this Friday & Saturday @ http://twitch.tv/ShootmaniaStorm for the tournament."

Looks like there probably is an NDA

Oh well, that sucks a little. :3

have u gotten a key/account yet?

i really have no time to play with mine.

if he already has one please give it to me (pm)

really want to play a fps game after watching dh

Yes I have one already :)

/Give !

:P

Looks like another game for which the entire community is getting excited--not for the actual mechanics/gameplay itself, but because: (a) many of the "pros" are trying to get into it and (b) at this point, people are just looking for "the next big thing." Have we not learned anything about over-hyping mediocre games over these past few years? I hope it turns out to be good, though.

"Getting excited" is a little bit overstatement.

many of the "pros" aren't trying to get into it.... they are getting paid to get into it. Which makes you believe that they are trying to get into it.

I mean stermy doesn't show up at E3 and ditches a major QL lan for free you know?

Anyway let's first see if shootmania is actually a good game or not.

Well even if it's utter rubbish, arn't they going to let the community make the content for what is suitable?

not sure but for instance if the movement is bugged or the hitdetection is purely crap or other game machanics just don't work right... you can't make any playable map for that.

But like I said let's first see what it's all about etc.

they won't turn down free money

plus you are 60

they made playable maps for q3 which suits 2 points perfectly fine.

Installed it, played it for 5 mins, ragequit. Can't even play on my own settings, screw it.

.

Anybody hates his newly acquired key and wants to share?

^^

Im really looking forward one and well be thankfull whoever wants to share.

^^

if somebody wants to sell their key pm me!