ZZT

you mean ZZT-OOP

Megazeux > ZZT

Yeah zzt-oop, was too young at the time to remember much about it. No idea what megazeux is :)

Megazeux was a ZZT clone, but with way more features. Custom fonts, a more advanced language, bigger rooms, better sound/music support, etc.. Most of the games still kept their ZZT-style charm, but you could make far more advanced games.

ZZ Top?

"I need some pointers on what is what.."

:D
Start with Ruby or Python, the simpler syntax makes learning a lot easier.

Python. Easy syntax, quick to debug, and less to handle. From there, you can move directly to C/C++. Avoid Java.

.

You might as well just skip to C++ and then learn Java after, if you really want to learn it. For an absolute newbie (with no programming experience), Python is a FAR better introduction to the concepts.

python.

What type of programming do you want to do?

Python

IDE: http://code.google.com/p/pyscripter/

Thanks a lot for your replies, the pointers pun was completely unintended.

I'll grab some literature on Python, should be a good start and I'll see where this leads me.

tBonE I'm not entirely sure at this point, web scripts, add ons, simple programs etc, nothing big.

Yeah Python is probably the best place to start, just go through tutorials and exercises until you feel knowledgeable enough to make something yourself. Then use what you know to make some things of your own creation. After that, decide what you want to do, if it can't be done in the language that you know, look into what is the best for what you want to do.

I don't even bother to learn languages anymore, I start coding. I decide what I want and I'll just read up on the syntax as I use it.

Job opportunities are great, everywhere in the world.

John von Neumann FTW.

assembler on atari hihi

I found this free book on Python a while back :

This is the site for the book "Learn Python The Hard Way". The book is a very beginner book for people who want to learn to code. If you can already code then the book will probably drive you insane. It's intended for people who have no coding chops to build up their skills before starting a more detailed book.

http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index

I haven't read it yet, but it's on my todo list.

java



(flame incomming)

java

You can start from here: http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/index.html see "Trails Covering the Basics"

Depends on what you want to achieve I guess... if you want something 'easy' go for C#.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck

if you want a job learn c++, be a nerd and get a job doing some php framework with the cosy wage of £55k a year,. if you make games etc you will have £24k

which do u do?

none, laughing at pussies with dnb etc etc etc, im too ghetto for any job in city i live, i the only famous person around, its a pussy city, and no1 got the balls for mr urban

each n every generation of mouthy little pricks who think they is ghetto, i will steal the car they momma brought for them, they never buy another, they all peasents and full of shit

except i have no criminal record, im infamous

shitty of bath, is in the only city without modded cars n all that way of life, since the 90s

Lisp

I think you should start with C, the mother of all modern programming languages, also the language with smallest amount of constructs hence easiest to master over a short time (if you are smart enough ..lets say in about 3 months). From there you could easily graduate to C++, once you get hang of object oriented programming Java is very easy to grasp.

Another alternative is to start with Java from beginning and embrace object orientedness right from start, but the problem with Java is it is very easy to get bogged down by ridiculously complex constructs that you might have to deal with from day 1, which is not a good thing for beginners, also for a beginner some of the Java constructs is fairly non-intuitive (it becomes intuitive after you have progressed quite a bit though, as more things will make sense that you used to blindly in the beginning)

A completely different path from this is to start out with a scripting language like perl or python (python being slightly easier of the two). In some sense of the word power, these languages offer you the ability to do a lot of things in a short period of time, eg perl lets you become a master of parsing patterns in text in very little investment of time or managing / launching jobs. However to be quite honest I feel a scripting language fails to lay a good programming foundation in a beginner, so that you might be able to do a lot of stuff in a short time of learning but the real value of what you learn might be very limited.

I'm a complete newbie myself but I really enjoy learning about programming. Heres my advice (but remember im a newb so take with grain of salt):

Do first steps in python to learn the absolute basics. Perhaps join an intro course? Get a book. Stick with it. I wouldn't hang around with python for too long even if you might come back to it later.

Jump to java and learn more about OOP, algorithms and datastructures. At least in sweden, there are millions of courses in java OOP. Check if you can jump into one in your country (perhaps a distance course?). They are usually ez mode but force you to learn stuff you might not learn when you are on your own. Make a larger projekt with gui (enjoy swing xD).

move on to c and do K and R + more stuff. If you can find a course that covers some c and asm -> gogogo.

Learn more about the functional paradigm, CL/scheme/erlang/haskell etc.. try SICP (google it) if you have the stomach. Don't feel bad if you don't.

Use linux (ubuntu is as easy to handle as windows) or cygwin in win. For coding, only use emacs or vim(gVim) this early, no IDEs. Ask for help on irc.freenode.org after searching for a solution to your problem yourself without success. I'm sure theres a lot of stuff on youtube and other online places.

Some people recommend jumping into a functional language right away but I think that'll kill the motivation in many cases. I would stay away from C++, its most likely a waste of your time this early.

let's make sweet love, GNU style

sure lemme just fire up this cygwin thang real quick, trololo

I will kill you

For coding, only use emacs or vim(gVim) this early, no IDEs.

Disagree - use whatever is most comfortable.

ubuntu is complete shit and you cannot connect to the net without a router

get opensuse, it has monodevelope as a package, and just like VS, but cannot link solutions when building yet

opensuse if the best thing outside of windows

no

yes, you will find monodev on the custom taskbar startmenu pluggin or whatever, that is like windows 98 startmenu under development, it will be nowhere else

monodev uses VS solutions and builds for win/linux/mac it just cannot link a project that has 2 solutions in, and doesnt have dropdown lists when coding, so you cannot build q4 sdk or anything good

monodev isnt a package from repo`s, it is just installed with some c++ locals libs

the sln`s are not the same format, and the sln for windows will be destroyed if you save with the as

what, sure you can. how do i think i'm able to post right now?

you have a router, or running virtualbox with ethernet adaptor to your modem

physical install of ubuntu, you cannot connect ot the net without a router,opensuse will setup your cellphone connection automaticaly if you have your cell plugged into a USB

na, i'm connected directly to the modem because my roommates for some obscure reason don't want to use our router (ye, i know...).

i'm on adsl now but when i had my own appartment was directly connected to my cable modem, again no problems here. why shouldn't that be possible?

when you install ubuntu, and skip the router setup because you dont have 1, no network connection tools will be installed

and the tools that are installed, need the router setup to be completed

? afaik you need http://packages.ubuntu.com/maverick/network-manager-gnome

in my case eg. http://ubuntu.mirror.cambrium.nl/ubuntu//pool..._amd64.deb which is installed by default.

but whatever, i don't care actually :<

and how are you going to download a package without a connection, you need another OS, most linux distributions are made for virtual machines

i download the ubuntu iso like you download the opensuse iso, what the hell? the network manager is part of the standard ubuntu configuration. no need to download anything.

even if you get the conenction apps to install and work without a router, ubuntu is still shit and for squares, all the menus try and be good, but they all just piss you off, and nothing is where anything commonsense tells you it should be, like in opensuse

windows -> opensuse, is easy money, if you use your OS for something more then browsing the net, opensuse is power user, all other linux distros are for your moms

opensuse is power user, all other linux distros are for your moms

You must be new to linux.

find the bash linux thread, when through all the main distros, they are all crap except for opensuse, mandriva is the closest to what a domestic person would want if the dont really want a mac, with a hassle free linux distro

opensuse is everything all round and everything is where is should be, gnome is just slow and desktop not hardware rendered which is its only flaw, you can just get down to doing some work in suse in whatever area you like unless you have KDE installed

ubuntu tries to mix between both of the above, but fails

the others are just random and oldskool linux if you want a full Os instead of windows

Right, so you have no clue about linux.

dont need to know about linux, if your running it in run level 1 for dedicated boxes and webservers etc, most linux distributions are the same, but most would go for redhat or opensuse

if you want a frontend terminal for host monitoring etc, opensuse is better all rounder

opensuse is better for code, with monodevelope, in the future when mono can link solution projects and can build big apps etc or just a q4 sdk which needs game and idLibs projects in the solution to be linked it the sdk to have a complete build

if your a home user and doing nothing much, mandriva is best for you

if you do art, modelling, bit of code random power user stuff, opensuse or ubuntu is for you

No.

yup, linux is still shit, so you have a choice of 3 main distributions, not including redhat

opensuse just needs the gnome desktop hardware rendered, and it a proper OS, despite groups not working on folder permissions so you have to sudo everything in terminal or find some script

No.

linux can run some games, there is no reason why the desktop is not hardware rendered and be able to use all display settings your card and monitor can handle, which would open up the door to alot of more "powerful" office apps etc

No.

linux will never get any good apps until the desktop is hardware rendered, and will never be a real contender to windows outside of server boxes

No.

judging from all the posts you've made I've begun to rule out the possibility that you might be trolling and started to believe you're actually just retarded.

so whats linux actually good for, and why would domestic home users want to use it over windows, event if the desktop is not hardware rendered,.

all linux desktops are slow and all screensavers get slowdown, nividia drivers do nothing much but give you control over brightness and gamma,

the actual code that links gnome to the drivers is missing, so gnome gets software rendered

any OS can display openGL using a software renderer, directx still has software renderer code

the only time linux comes in good, is when windows is fucked and wont boot, you have nothing todo but troll some forums so you dont reinstall windows for a week

in opensuse 11.latest, theres 2 things that need to be done to make it worth a look and not piss you off..

!>make the desktop hardware rendered

2>fix the groups. folder and file permissions need to use groups and not users, unless file or folder is in a users home directory

the user that is created when installing Os, is automatically added to the root group, and becomes a admin, which is what root group should be, and you wont have to sudo mv everything around in terminal, just drag n drop

so whats linux actually good for

i can give you some my reasons and those of some of my friends who went the same route, if that helps.

linux is good, because...
*i don't have to resort to warez to get the programs/functionality i need (and/or the os itself for that matter)
*it isn't plagued by viruses and the like yet
*it handles system security in a way i much prefer over windows, luks-lvm integrates itself nicely, the network stuff is handled well and sudo actually makes sense (eventhough i curse it every other day)
*keeping a system as a whole updated is so much better handled and much much easier in comparison
*my job/education does not require me to use windows based software, i know this is different for a lot of people though

linux handles security the same as windows, if folders and files used group permissions which most programs check first anyway, just like php, which is the gid before uid

there are no good programs on linux, everything takes 100x longer then the workflow on windows

programs that do exist are too nerdy and up their own ass, even text editors, they wont even try to open any file type, and are all locked to mime types

Who tought you this and why do you chose to believe everything you hear/read without even looking up facts?

It sounds like you had a bad experience and chose to believe everything is shit because you can't get it to work.

I actually get better performance in openGL based applications when running Linux as compared to Windows.

You also implied that Linux can't properly display modes that a monitor has to offer? Oh yeah, it was complete voodoo to get my 2233RZ Monitor to run at 1680x1050@120Hz (it wasn't)

Stop spreading your idiotic knowledge around, people might actually believe you.

Of all the stupid shit you've said this is one of my favourite quotes:
"dont need to know about linux, if your running it in run level 1 for dedicated boxes and webservers etc"

its what i know from installing most of them physically, not running in a VM on windows

so i kept opensuse installed as its the best linux Os all rounder, and easy to navigate like windows, if you install it with gnome, KDE smells of the same cheese on all distributions

before getting some linux to build Q43A, i have`nt touched a linux distribution for 7 years +

dedicated box run linux in level 1, if the hoster installs a desktop, the desktop is a waste of resources and would = more downtime of the apache or whatever serrver it is being used for, and those who dont know get the picture

runlevel 1, also known as "single user mode" is used for maintenance. it won't start any services nor will it configure your network interfaces. a server running in this mode would be pretty useless..

The most commonly used runlevel is 3, a.k.a. "multi user mode" (applies to most distros, including your beloved suse)

not my beloved suse, i couldnt care shit about linux, if you really are a pure peasent and dont wanna spend no money on windows, or a new PC, opensuse is the best linux, it only has the 2 main issues

no normal person thats not into computers and pissing around, wont sit there type mv filename dir/filename like 1989 to move junk around your home pc hdd

most other issues are lack of programs

dedicated boxes run in whatever run level removes the desktop, if a desktop is installed

Suse used to be a commercial linux distribution originally developed by germans. at least they got their act together and developed OPENsuse. I still wouldn't use it though.. hence I don't share your opinion about it being "the best linux".

And "normal persons" probably wouldn't use their computer to write code, incidentally what this thread is about.. yeah?

Lack of programs? Not a problem i've ran into yet (phew!) Quite the contrary, lots of applications that most often come in open source, yay everyone can commit changes and write their own patches to improve them!

The runlevel you're talking about and which is the default in openSUSE is 5.

Btw, if you actually want to LEARN something and don't just assume things there's a killer website out there.. it's called google. I'm not gonna do all the work and give up the URL though! That can be todays challenge for you!

having to code on linux is shit too, time consuming and mundane, especially when text editors wont try to open any filetype, that would be a peice of shit if you network admin too

if you dont know what a file is in windows, you just open it in notepad, if its just text you cant hunt the app down

what the fuck are you on about? I guess vim/emacs aint got shit on notepad :(

I have a better way to determine filetypes!

% file header.png
header.png: PNG image data, 603 x 299, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced

% file _plugins/haml_converter.rb
_plugins/haml_converter.rb: Ruby script text

It's like.. magic! brings tears to my eyes. How's notepad treating you?

prooves my point, fucking nerd

all linux apps are locked to mime types. there is no text editor that will open any kind of filetype, geEdit is bollox and so are all the others

there are 1000s of text files on linux, you cant open most of them unless you have the proper app, windows and notpad will open anything and save it again, as long as its some form of plain ascii, which is linux nothing is plain ascii except for plain ascii files

notepad is quick and painless, and a worthless app, unless its just used to view any kind of filetype

add it too all file extensions on context menu

I'm a nerd, you got me!

I use vim myself and guess what? I'm able to process plain ascii! Sometimes I even go a little crazy and open up documents containing unicode characters (but don't tell anyone!)

Sounds swell to associate notepad to all file extensions. Is that the tip of the day?

Are you done making shit up or are we going for another round? Your stupidity is starting to bore me.

but when your browsing your drive, and dont know what a file is, a basic simple notpad text app is used to see what the file is, it takes 2secs to load and view the file, if its a driver or exe with a random extension you will just have the terminal font square in the corner, if its a ini or cfg with another extension for some app, then you know what app it is for

on linux, simple text editors are all crap, any other use of text, you just use open office, or the proper app for whatever you actually want todo

the same applies to pk4`s, everyone knows they are just zips, they have to have the zip extension on linux to open them in peazip or other archive program, on windows you can just open and edit them in any archive program

I'm pretty sure I just demonstrated the use of 'file'. Also, it doesn't take 2 seconds to determine a filetype ;) here, let me show you!

% time file /etc/localtime
/etc/localtime: timezone data, version 2, 4 gmt time flags, 4 std time flags, no leap seconds, 118 transition times, 4 abbreviation chars
file /etc/localtime 0.00s user 0.00s system 73% cpu 0.005 total

% time file -L =firefox
/usr/bin/firefox: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.27, stripped
file -L =firefox 0.00s user 0.00s system 91% cpu 0.004 total

woah! only took me 0.005 seconds and only 0.004 seconds on the binary!

I never played Q4, but here's a display using pk3's from Q3 instead!

% file z-cpma-pak148.pk3
z-cpma-pak148.pk3: Zip archive data, at least v2.0 to extract

% unzip -t z-cpma-pak148.pk3 | grep -v "testing:"
Archive: z-cpma-pak148.pk3
No errors detected in compressed data of z-cpma-pak148.pk3.

I don't see why I should be able to open them in "any archive program". Thank god for the Unix philosophy!

whats the point in living in 1989 and having to type commandlines, no normal person would ever use linux, and it will never be a proper contender to windows until the few small main issues are fixed

its just all time consumming rubbish the user shouldnt have to put up with. if you are going to use linux as a replacement OS

you just have to rename the file to .zip so you can open it, thats a bore because there are no multi file extension changers, and no decent file search program, and no ascii text finder that will search all filetypes to match string

and if there where decent apps, they wouldnt be added to the context menu, which would just add more time to the already time consumming world of linux

if india and the middleeast could afford and be allowd to use windows, they would all get more work done in a day then a month having to use linux

linux is too blame for 3rd world countries

What's the point of using graphical interfaces to do basic things such as writing code? Good thing Linux aint for normal persons, that way I can still be oh so very unique!

I can't really speak for GUI filemanagers since I don't use them. I find that the shell gives me more option when handling files, and that's why I prefer it.

I don't expect the average user or the idiots(that's you) to use a shell, that's why there's distributions out there that makes it easier and provides desktop environments like Gnome/KDE.

However, if you're into coding you usually want more out of your operating system.

All the problems you are refering to is to a specific application, it's not Linux overall. You'd have to be more specific in what application lacks what.

'grep' is an amazing tool to match strings and it's most likely included in whatever distro you might use!

P.S. I love your arguments about the 3rd world.

Did you find java easier to pick up than C? I found it the other way round due to not having to worry about objects and the other add-ons/clutter of java. Don't get me started on swing....

Looking back, I would have found C really nice to begin with, was relatively simple and could build up to the more powerful (and dangerous XD ) things like pointers and memory injection etc.

Just curious for your view :)

The first language I was forced to learn was Haskell; its a bloody awful language to learn for a relative beginner. Thx for that 1st year informatics.....

Although, Haskell can be insanely elegant and powerful due to recursion and lamba calculus (think thats what its called?). One of my classmates made a fully functioning ray tracer in 150 lines of code...... o_O

Edit: totally agree with using emacs and staying away from an IDE to start with; found eclipse and equivalents very daunting and time consuming to learn; although the extra features do get handy very quickly.

I think vedic has a good point about using what you are most comfortable with; it's just I think most beginners would feel most comfortable with a simple interface as in emacs to begin with, I certainly did :)

.

i dont use ubuntu, but it seems like a good distro to me.

I'm pretty sure java teaches you some bad habits.

Currently reading Learn python the hard way, I think it will be a good start, haven't encountered any issues so far.

Learn C.

I highly recommend C++, and start out with "C++ without fear" by Brian Overland. A super great introduction to C++ and programming in general.

From there go on to "Practical C++ programming" by Steve Oualline.

C++ is the most widely used language for serious projects. If you master it you will have an easy time with the higher level languages, such as C# and Java.

A strong understanding of C++ will make it easier to learn C as well if you wish.

Isn't C++ a bit hard to start with?

Not necessarily. The first book I named makes it pretty simple.

I'll give it a look, thanks.

There are many more things that you have to deal with in C++ than you would in the more basic languages recommended. The power of languages like C++ comes from their requirement of the user to handle more aspects of the program itself.

Without going into technical specifics that you won't understand yet... In a language like python, there are many things that you simply will not have to handle - they are all done internally. While this is helpful for rapid development, it is worse for actual runtime speed, and gives you less power. However, while it won't teach you the finer points of programming, it will help you to learn the foundation of programming itself. Once you're moderately comfortable with a more simple language, you'll be able to pick up a more complex language rather quickly, and mostly only have to focus on the difficult things that you didn't have to do before.

it does`nt really give you more power, c++ is obvious choice, most code you would need are called from drivers to control soundcards and directx/opengl etc etc

c++ is the opensource language where theres 1000 ways todo 1 thing and every class you can download will do it a different way, or you can code you own

visual c is like delphi and .Net, and tries to make life easier by having the IDE simplified, but the main code is still called from framework drivers

pascal-> c++-> visual basic-> mysql

From a professional programmer for 12 years:

Avoid badly designed languages ("designed by committee"... a recipe for disaster), like C++. You will only learn about how to cut corners and avoid gotchas, and nothing of real programming.

Start will a clear, powerful language like Python or Ruby. Learn basic programming paradigms (functions, loops etc.). Then move on to objects and classes. Again, stay away from poorly designed wanna-be object-oriented stuff, like C++ or Java.

Then when you get comfortable with "thinking in code", learn a fast compiled, hands-on language like C. Learn when to use it and when to avoid it. Get an eye for code clarity and elegance. Most noobs start thinking about performance way too early.

1000x more important than any tutorial is sitting down and actually coding shit. It can be whatever. That's the only way to learn.

Visual Basic Express 2010

http://msdn.microsoft.com/fr-fr/express/aa975050

For the first step, I suggest python. With almost no programming experience, my girlfriend read a book in three weeks and can now script her lab experiments and get simple but real work done with it. Google for a book, and learn the basics. Once you understand the basics thing, you can decide where you want to go next.

Object Oriented programming goes in the direction of software engineering, where the question is how to create and maintain bigger programs with teams of programmers. Most of the available jobs require you knowledge in this area, although not necessarily deep. If you want to work in a big company, you need more of it. A very academic type of language is Eiffel, which pushes OO concepts quite a bit, forcing you to define contracts when declaring classes and functions. For learning purposes, it's quite good (than you can move to bad stuff like c++/java).

An other direction is the one of performances. At the low level it mainly includes assembly, which is more of a mental exercise than anything useful these days. There are people making their living by coding uber optimized math functions for new processor achitectures, but that's for a few people with tons of experience. There is then C/C++ combined with processor specific instructions, and the kind of thing you do is to take a 1kb file of simple readable code, turn it into some ugly unreadable 1Mb file which runs 100 times faster, and only works on some machines/platforms. Again this is a niece, and I would not advise to learn it, unless it's for personal pleasure. On a similar level there is GPGPU shader prorgamming, as well as the recent CUDA/OpenCL stuff, again the goal is to turn slow stuff into faster stuff. Consider that you need to have something that needs to be optimize before even thinking of optimizing it. So besides few passionate hardcore coders here and there on the web, you have people doing numerical methods in the academia, and then people working in specific sections of big companies that deal with these things.

For web scripting I have no experience, but my insight is that it may give you satisfaction quickly, as you can do certain things fast, and have your page online blabla.

For game development, either go the classic way and go for C/C++ and OpenGL/DirectX, or take simplified plaftorms like XNA (C#), which will grant you a much better experience at the beginning, and potentially some pain later on. Just to name a game, Magicka is done with it. Flash games seems quite popular and for most gameplay ideas (if that's your thing) the technology seems sufficient, but again I have no experience there.

In general, I value my time as developer more than the cpu time, so whenever I can I pick C# (or simple c++ with QT) and try to do clean organized code. However, for research purposes I have to go with C++, which makes my life as coder way less productive and enjoyable, but makes the program faster and sharable with other researchers.

What I also value as very important in programming is the quality of documentation. The only thing worse than the lack of proper documentation is the presence of bad/outdated documentation. For that respect, C# is quite good and accessible. Same probably for Java, which I don't use. C++ is good for STL and QT, but already stuff like Boost may make your days painful, and when it goes to open source, there is a great variation in quality and quantity.

Agreed on most parts (my post is just above yours).

Just wanted to point out no sane research uses C++ these days (I'm in this field). It's mostly Java and/or Python with its super-fast scientific extensions of NumPy/SciPy.

The niche of C++ as a hybrid "fast, yet advanced language" disappeared as soon as modern, powerful languages allowed easy interfacing with low-level, compiled code where performance hurts.

Consider C++ only if you want your job to be supporting obscure, legacy codebase at some big company (hint: you don't).

Learn Java, it's basically the language taught at most universites for new students, then go to c/c++ learn pointers, maybe also how to overwrite operators ... but depending on what you want to do you don't really need it ... and anyway if you know one language you get also quite well into other languages ... they all have quite similar constructs ...

java
javascript if you want to do something cool fast (learn proper jquery)

Python

In my master program we did it in this order...

SML -> C -> Java -> MIPS Assembly -> Python

Python was never really in the program, we just ended upusing it in my latest course (which is about computer security) since the teacher likes it :/

how was dealing with MIPS programming? we had to use nios2 which is the same stuff pretty much, but it was a pain in the ass to use (the simulator etc).

The language itself was a mess, but it wasn't that hard to implement since it's the same logic as C

Python and/or Ruby

Don't dismiss Java, if you fall short you can always move to Russia and write browser exploits :)

as if java and javascript are the same thing...

Let's not do this.

Python was what I did.
http://www.activestate.com/activepython/downloads
http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/thinkpython.html

Some inspirational quotes for you from two hacking giants :)

Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years, Peter Norvig:

Talk to other programmers; read other programs. This is more important than any book or training course.

How to Become a Hacker, Eric Raymond:

Learning to program is like learning to write good natural language. The best way to do it is to read some stuff written by masters of the form, write some things yourself, read a lot more, write a little more, read a lot more, write some more … and repeat until your writing begins to develop the kind of strength and economy you see in your models.

to keep things simple, if you know the basics of code, download some source from sourceforge, none of the apps ever work and you have to read other peoples code to fix the problem, and you end up mixing all the code you have read and your own way of doing things and make better apps then anyone else, if you can be bothered

So that explains why some people have actually tried militia

your problem if you have`nt and just wanna chat pure shit because its quake 4

the mod 2 1337, every1 is too chickenshit to say they have found a bug or something

the mod is banned from q4master cos id sucks some cock, no1 can install mods manually, nodoubt any of you can connect to a ip manualy

and its Q43A

german language

python and perl have the coolest names imo :D

I'd start with brainf*ck just because the name ownz.

But on a more general bases.... in C++ it's "easy to mess up and hard to find your error". Especially once you start to mess around with pointers / objects...
Java has that a lot better covered (aka it gives error messages which are fairly understandable) and you have less possibilities to mess up (as java only uses pointers in a fairly intuitive way).

There is not really a lot of difference between the languages of C++ and Java though.... I dunno why people say NO JAVA and then tell you to learn C++.

C is kinda overkill for general use (it's only used for embeded devices pretty much... aka software build for specific hardware (ie printers / faxes / mice? / tv / hdd recorders / etc.)). Which in general means that you have insane control over how stuff works... but you need to write it all down, while the other languages have a 'nice basic config' for you to make things faster.

I never really worked with Python though so maybe it's ok to learn stuff with.

I went from Delphi -> haskell (not really usefull imo) - > Java -> C++ -> C -> C# -> ??? -> PROFIT.

VS print the error/warning in the error box when building, click on it to goto the file and line number

VS being visual studio?

I really doubt that anyone going into programming just to learn will actually get VS...

http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/

Why? The express edition is free?

Your answer should have been that VS won't be able to give you a warning / error for the types of bug you were referring to. The VS debugger does give a newb a much better chance of fixing it than gcc +gdb though

if the program cant build then you fix the build error, anything else is your own shit code and comes under a warning, if you dont fix them its your problem,

g++ is crap and its builds is always changing and stuff becoming deprecated and you end up with a 1000 warning anyway if you use scons, monodevelope in linux will be just like VS errors and warnings

I went from Delphi -> haskell (not really usefull imo) - > Java -> C++ -> C -> C# -> ??? -> PROFIT.

Haskell not really useful? wtf...

Java is very useful these days... more so than C#, without a doubt.

Besides, there is no reason not to use VS.. (or Anjuta/monodevelop on Linux distros)

yes haskell isn't really usefull.

Haskell is like: "Yeee I can write in 1 unreadable line of code.... that is equivalent to 10 readable lines of java code!"
And just in ease of learning java > haskell.... and it's a lot 'easier' to get smth graphically to work on java... unless ofcourse you love ascii-art ;)

Still you make the same thinking steps in both java and haskell.... but imo java is easier to understand.

Haskell is insanely useful, if you know how to use it...

Also, the graphical part doesn't make sense... Else I could just say hey, use ActionScript!

How does Haskell require the same thinking steps as Java? Haskell is a purely functional language whereas Java is meant for OO Programming.

maybe you only use java as if it's OO only.... But there is nothing that I can't write in java which I can write in haskell.... While there are a lot of things (especially graphical stuff) I can write in java which are pretty much impossible in haskell.

The Java programming language is a general-purpose concurrent class-based object-oriented programming language, specifically designed to have as few implementation dependencies as possible.

Is what I meant to say.

Hello World in C++:

#include <iostream>

int main()
{
std::cout << "Hello, world!\n";
return 0;
}

Hello World in Python:

print "Hello World!"

Hello world in Brainfuck (uncommented for effect):

+++++ +++++
[
> +++++ ++
> +++++ +++++
> +++
> +
<<<< -
]
> ++ .
> + .
+++++ ++ .
.
+++ .
> ++ .
<< +++++ +++++ +++++ .
> .
+++ .
----- - .
----- --- .
> + .
> .

Hello Liefje

You could also get rid of the spaces/linefeeds. =P

++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.

also lolcode:

HAI
CAN HAS STDIO?
VISIBLE "HAI WORLD!"
KTHXBYE


and last but not least, Malbolge:

('&%:9]!~}|z2Vxwv-,POqponl$Hjig%eB@@>}=<M:9wv6WsU2T|nm-,jcL(I&%$#"
`CB]V?Tx<uVtT`Rpo3NlF.Jh++FdbCBA@?]!~|4XzyTT43Qsqq(Lnmkj"Fhg${z@>

Definitely picking up brainfuck, looks rather simple compared to others :)

book: http://diveintopython3.org/
also as pdf: http://diveintopython3.org/d/diveintopython3-pdf-latest.zip

Thanks for the pdf, I'll give it a look.

The advice here is rather horrible.

Shut up and pick a language. Find a good book (search the sites suggested below) and just start working through it.

That's it.

From Python with its easy going code readability, powerful standard library and rich package index, to the incredibly fast, powerful and immensely deep hell hole that comes with C++ -- none of that shit matters. Stop listening to these idiots.

Industry languages? Java/C/C++/C#/PHP/Python/whateverthefuck it doesn't matter. What does matter is sort of stuff:

understanding that programming is just a bunch of instructions,
input / process / output
variables and expressions
conditions, program flow and loops
functions and arrays
etc. etc. etc.

You'll have to learn that stuff first and be proficient with it no matter the language. This is why programmers can jump in and out of languages with relative ease, all the same shit applies. Programming is programming. You need to learn how to program.

http://stackoverflow.com and http://programmers.stackexchange.com/

Pick language x, search those sites for "best x book" (yes, there are good and bad books for learning from) buy, pirate or whatever and just go.

-------

I just wanted to add:

forget about job relevance, what's good and bad about a given language and what it's best used for. You're nowhere near (and not be for a good long while) close enough to understanding any of that or be skilled enough make use of a language in such a way that you're capable of pushing learning its limitations.

I started with PASCAL, like 15 years ago or whatsoever. But honestly, start with a popular language which is most relevant to your work, any will do.
Just pick one from C, C++, C#, java, python, delphi....

I'm starting with C++ as a junior college class. I have shell scripting experience but nothing else as far as programming but it is going well so far.

I think once you learn one of the major programming languages you should be able to learn all of them since all that changes more or less is the syntax but the logic and problem solving skills will remain the same.

At my college, they started with Java before transitioning you to C++, and honestly, I agreed with this approach even though I'd basically learned those same things on Java in college that I learned on C++ back in high school.

For instance, the Java Development Toolkit (JDK) is much easier to install than the free GCC compiler that is commonly used by C++ programmers. The two languages have very similar syntax anyways. Not to mention that the JDK compiler is universal among Java programmers, meaning less random errors that you'll encounter from platform to platform because of different compilers being used on each platform. This point is especially important when, say, you're working on C++ projects and rendering incomplete builds at home to possibly finish and try to render the final build at school.

better you go with .net languages which easy to learn. C# http://csharp.net-informations.com is the best choice. Now a days lot of job oppurtunities too.

wills.

Start with SICP. Another great book is The Little Schemer.

Disregard OOP for as long as you can. Disregard C. Disregard Java. Disregard Python and Ruby.

First learn the essence of programming. Things like continuations and combinatory logic will let you have a much deeper understanding of computer science than C's pointer arithmetic or Java's primitive polymorphism. Lisp's homoiconicity (code is data is code) and its macro system will put Ruby's metaprogramming support to shame.

Learn about algorithms - sorting, searching, graph theory, dynamic programming, asymptotic complexity. Programming without a proper theoretical understanding of algorithms is like building a bridge out of paper - maybe it will work for a toy train, if you are lucky, but a real train will make it collapse in an instant.

When you are ready for serious stuff, start with Haskell - Learn you a Haskell is an excellent introduction. Read about functors, appicatives, monoids and monads. Learn about functional programming, referential transparency, immutable data structures and why those things are important. Make your brain hurt.

After that, if you need to write a driver, learn C in a day. If you need to get an enterprise job, learn Java or C# in a day. You won't be very happy after being exposed to high level languages though :)

C

C. Some think it's harsh for beginners but with good tutorials it's not an issue. You can learn the very basics of programming without touching the hard stuff. Then as you advance and understand how it really is simply series of instructions, how they flow with loops and functions you can advance to something very important : memory management. Some will tell you modern languages do it for you and you don't have to worry about it. It's true, but you'll still fuck up even with their help if you don't understand what's going on and it will only be harder to re-learn correctly (if you do!). Then implement some algorithms with this knowledge. Learn to think with recursion.

Then move to high level languages. Java and C# are good to learn the basics of OO. If you pick C#, make sure to play around LINQ and lambda expressions! Learn everything about classes, instances, inheritance, polymorphism, etc. Don't waste time on design patterns. Not yet, at least.

Once you've made several projects using OO development, go back down a level and learn how OO works in C++. Use this knowledge to implement your own version of common data structures you've already used. Or even of some you didn't get to use (skiplists are neat!). Once you understand very well the concept of algorithmic complexity, you can have fun improving further your structures by learning proper C++ optimization. If you want an even deeper understanding, do some assembly (SPARC, Intel, mips, etc.).

Then choose a language (C++11, Java, C# or even Erlang if you feel exotic) and learn everything about multithreading. Then if you're interested in that stuff, start doing some frontend (WPF, swing, whatever floats your boat).

At this point you can learn boring design patterns. Start using more modern stuff like web services, ORMs, etc. You'll find yourself using more and more libraries written by other people cause, heh, they did it already.

Then find a job. You'll have gone a long way to be at the same points as your colleagues (use that stuff that already exists for moar productivity!) but you won't be mediocre.

I find C easier than any OO language, but I'm convinced I'm the weird one.

Anyway, I'd start by C++, just because is powerful and all the rest are similar to it.

to be a good programmer you need to learn a methodology, structure and logic behind.
you can know no language and still be a good programmer in a sense who designs good algorithms, then you give those algorithms to laborers (so called programmers) and they will turn those into a language that is present in the project at that moment.
what is essential is to understand how machine works.

If you want a sincere advice, then, i suggest to start learning computer architecture with assembler language (basics is enough, language is not the essence here, architecture is). Because you will understand how machine works on its own level, how commands are processed, what happens in the memory, cpu, how they correlate etc. It will be much easier to learn higher level stuff afterwards. (higher level does not necesseraly mean 'harder' ). Then you can move to higher level languages such as C and C++ together with programming methodology and programming design. (or java, python or whatever you choose according to your vision and to your needs, it really doesnt matter, the language that is)
I want to stress the point that what matters is learning data structures, algorithms, understanding thoroughly the processes that run behind instructions you want to give to machine. (a program is a set of instructions you give to machine and expect certain result, unless it is A.I. but that's another topic).

And remember there may appear many programmers out there, but only few to none know what they do and what their code actually does. So, basically they will be always needed as long as we have electricity. Take your time. Better come back after 10 years with strong insight into all stuff than flow on the surface and copy what others already did.

On the other hand if you want it only for job, then you will never be good at it. It must really be your passion or great interest, that is it must come from inside to express yourself and your concepts in this area.

So take easy nap and contemplate what do you really want.

At some point of life, you may suddenly get enlightened and move onto becoming system administrator, but thats another topic altogether and totally different level. It is like administrating universe-platform on which Gods (programmers) come to create their worlds. You see, at first God was a programmer, he wrote a platform and went behind, now it is being administrated.
Sys admin level is last before the highest level. Highest level is called Hacker. A Hacker not only knows how machine functions from A to Z, can program and has access to any computer on the planet regardless of what people think of security, security on the internet is such an illusion it makes me laugh. A marketing, nothing more. So, not only Hacker sees through all the system of computers, he actually sees through human mind, understands how mind works on deepest levels and has access to any knowledge needed at the moment for that person. Thus one question may have 10 different answers, depends where is the questioner comming from...

cant write a book here...

good luck

anony forever. soon we all will be free of this system some programmers are holding you in. ull see.
economics will go first.

My recommendation is Pascal, mainly for these two reasons:

* It has extremely clear and readable syntax. Reading a program is like reading a book. Language constructs and elements are easily understood by a newbie, and there are a lot less ways to shoot yourself in the foot compared to some other mainstream languages. The language notations are also close to mathematical ones in many places.

* At the same time, the language has a comparably low abstraction level (close to C), which allows you to see through code and data structures to get the "feel" of the machine, of the very computation model — that of a central processor and a memory cell array. There is little added value in the language features — what you describe is what you really get in memory. This will allow you to understand how things work and how are higher abstraction levels implemented (which will definitely prove useful in using these levels later).

Yes, Pascal's standard library doesn't have many advanced data structures and algorithms built-in. But a beginner won't need many of them, and for those which are needed (and are usually classics like binary search or quicksort) it is better to learn to code them yourself.

Python is good, too. But while it meets the first point, it doesn't meet the second. I think it should remain a scripting language, not a teaching language.

For God's sake, don't start with C/C++ and maybe even Java/C#. These languages will eat you alive. Approach them later, when you are better prepared.

To train your programming skills, I suggest you to solve programming problems: you are given input data, calculate and output the answer within given time and memory limit. I can't name many of the Western scene, but here are some websites that host problems and contests:

https://projecteuler.net/
http://train.usaco.org/
http://uva.onlinejudge.org/
http://www.spoj.pl/
http://www.hsin.hr/coci/
http://www.codechef.com/
http://code.google.com/codejam
http://codeforces.com/
http://community.topcoder.com/tc
http://acm.timus.ru/Default.aspx?locale=en

And this one is hardcore: http://opencup.ru/

GL & HF ;-)

Pascal or PHP

very nice long replies. I will keep mine short:

21 February 2011

assembly

Too many maths for my crazy horny head

I code for a living since 1999

First, learn C, lisp and assembly (no need to try too hard on this one).

Then
SQL, Transact SQL and PL/SQL

Then choose :
C++ or objective C
and
Java or C#

Finally, pick one or all of these :
ksh, python, perl, vba for excel, php, ocaml, cobol.

At this point, you'll understand that in the great scheme of software engineering, language does not matter, and that you can learn a new one in a few days.

You can't learn Haskell in a few days :>

java/basic until you're not retarded

then C until you figure out what you want to do

then whatever

don't start off learning python without any real computing knowledge just because some fanboy on a forum told you to

ruby or python.

move on to c asap.

the bible

My sequence: Pascal,Assembler,C,SQL,...
So Pascal is for 1st language because of:
- designed specially to learn programming and form good style
- single paradigm
- strong typing
C/C++ is good for production but its the worst case to start learning programming as discipline

you are right pascal imposes you rigor, but it's so limited and verbose you can spoil all the fun.
also, assembler before C? why should you care about the difference between a referenced and a direct memc if you don't know pointers yet?

>but it's so limited and verbose you can spoil all the fun

Strict != limited, there is a lot of extensions, verbosity is not a real problem

>also, assembler before C? why should you care about the difference between a referenced and a direct memc if you don't know pointers yet?

It often much easier to see how it works on low-level rather than to imagine some (relative) complex type relations

Strict != limited, there is a lot of extensions, verbosity is not a real problem

are you joking?

It often much easier to see how it works on low-level rather than to imagine some (relative) complex type relations

ye, before knowing what printf is, let's talk about absolute addressing :)

ps you have [ q ] quote [ / q ] for quoting, just remove spaces inside brackets

>are you joking?

There is many good applications, you know

>ye, before knowing what printf is, let's talk about absolute addressing :)

We talking about generic entities, not particular library functions

>ps you have [ q ] quote [ / q ] for quoting, just remove spaces inside brackets

I know :P

I guess that good applications = external libraries
btw, C it's not always written like this:
a+=b;
b=a-b;
a+=-b;
still not clear what you meant about asm

I suggest learning Python cause that's an awesome quake player.

I guess the best is to first learn C, then to learn Java.

But most practical is to start out with Java, but this might have the drawback you will not learn C until you really have to, which might as well be never. If you know how to program in C, i.e. you know much nearer to the core of the system, it will also improve your Java programming imho.

Of course first you need basics from books/tutorials, but then you need to make yourself work on some bigger projects to learn.

Python is also a nice language, but I wouldn't recommend it as as the core language to start programming ...

I'm pretty sure java teaches you some bad habits.