But it won't help newbs learn what is probably the most important aspect of Quake ... timing.

Throw them in at the deep end, they receive enough pampering and special treatment in other games. Just give them a nice big juicy and extensive integrated tutorial on timing instead.

no matter how many tutorials are written on that sort of stuff only help serious pandas that are actually trying to improve their game really hard. It does not work for the casual noob looking to play duel. They get raped and never come back. Anything that uses in-game cues have much higher chances of success.

If someone REALLY wants to learn dueling, and they're in it for the long run, they won't be discouraged by being bad when they start.

Everyone is bad when they start, and that should be expected. Anyone who joins a duel for their first time, gets destroyed, then quits playing duel forever probably wouldn't have lasted long anyway.

I think it would help in some respects.

- Help training for "feel timing"
- Help people maybe keep a number in their head (depending how this is implemented, this is a forgotten side about timing an item for some people, it can be tricky especially when your getting face rocketed)
- Casual play of duel, i'm even sure good players wouldn't mind turning this on to practice other aspects of the game
- Duel being less discouraging to players. A typical scenario for a newb against a decent play is being completely controlled armour wise (you don't even have to time to accomplish this, timing by feel works)
- Makes the game more newb friendly (good and bad thing lol)
- Might put an emphasis on the importance of putting pressure on items or setting up to spot a item pickup


I do have this quake purest like thoughts "oo this isn't quake", I worked hard to time items etc. But I suppose new players is better than my inner ego. Although at the same time this would have to be carefully thought out because you don't want to separate the duel player base to much. Timing an item should feel satisfying and should ultimately be the crossing line between decent and amateur dueler.

I think this is a good idea and needs to be implemented to get any newbie interested in duel.

This is my take on the idea:

For total noobs: make all item timers visible (in the manner you said) even the ones opponent is picking up. This will help them build knowledge of what to rush for, which items he should go for, whether he can make it in time this sort of stuff.

For the ones with some experience: timer will only work for items enemy has picked up last time, the item timers are invisible for those that he has picked up, however a sound cue is played when the time for a non-timer item comes (not earlier though), this will teach them to count by a reinforced learning method. The bell rings but you are not close to any item it's for means u messed up.

For next level: opponent items will also have sound cue played, confirming that whether you guessed wrong or not.

Normal mode: as it is now: you count for your items and try to hear enemy pickup.

I think the armors need to be replaced with gold armor, silver armor and bronze armor. My reasoning for this is simple, it helps new players understand which armor is better just by looking at them. Gold, silver and bronze is a ranking system, isn't it? We use it for Olympic Medals and it makes sense, you wouldn't have to turn around to someone next to you and ask an embarrassing question like "Hey, is the Gold medal better than the Bronze medal?" - With this better naming system it would be much more simpler for beginners to understand which armor is better, its a lot less confusing then having the red, yellow and green armor (Personally, I see green as being a 'better' colour than red. I see green being healthy whereas I see red as being some sort of warning or danger). This I think is probably one of the right things that PainKiller did.

Secondly I would also suggest adding a sort of shadowed/faded out item in the location of an item whenever it has been taken. Take a look at Xonotic for that.

Finally I wouldn't use a timer or something of the sorts but rather a discrete ping or a bell that tells the players that a certain armor has respawned. I think this is much more subtle and possibly rewarding to a player than a big fuck-off timer thats at the side of your screen that just literally tells you when an armor is going to spawn.

I think many will like the ring a bell as time comes approach cause it's both telling and teaching at the same time.

I wouldn't want to be rolling in golden armor. It's a weak metal and you gonna get robed and raped.

In truth, all armors in Quake Live are weak sheets of aluminum, just painted red yellow and green.

I doubt any of this will help noobs at all, it takes seconds to find out armour values and locations, and a bell to alert for item respawns removes a lot of skill from the game and would make a lot of players quit.

We're talking about newbs here, not Autistic children with photographic memory. I think you've missed it a bit mate.

Trust me, I've taught plenty of noobs on how to play Quake (Particularly QuakeWorld where the armors aren't additive and are tiered) and 1-2 weeks later they keep on asking me which armor is the best despite telling them pretty much before every game (Not kidding, I want to fuck their faces up, shame that they're overseas). I've had a few who tried to tell me that green armor was the best because "green's a good color".

Secondly, the dimming of removed items doesn't just apply to major pickups such as the armors and mega-healths, but also weapons and items of smaller importance such as armor shards, health shards, health bubbles and ammunition.

Finally, I doubt people would leave the game completely if there were sound-cues whenever an item would respawn. The reason I thought that the feature of hearing a bell every 30 seconds that indicates some sort of importance for 10 minutes would really get into your head, it would become mental memory by the end of 3 duels. In theory, its really effective. Of course, this should only be enabled to tier-1 and tier-2 duelers.

When I started playing Quake I had no problem with armour values, when I've taught friends how to play Quake they've had no problems either. If you explain to noobs that the more of a colour of armour there is on a map the weaker it will be then they should be fine. More people will be annoyed than helped, noobs will then need explaining the current system if they decide to watch vods or play any other Quake game.

Dimming of items wouldn't be too bad, I know CPM had respawn points shown in warmup, I quiet like that and it's a good idea, but for items it isn't all that necessary, wouldn't hurt though and I wouldn't complain if they where added just for just for warmup, it would save me running around in offline mode or asking my opponent not to pick up items or even asking where items are before a game starts.

I can't see me playing if all servers had a bell when a major item respawned, this would remove skill and cause noobs to mindlessly run to armour/mega whenever they hear a ding, they will run to the wrong one not knowing which sound is which and most wont look at the time the item respawned. Additionally noobs might think yellow armours are unimportant but as they get better yellow timing might depend whether they win or lose match.

Also it's pointless arguing about this unless you decide to make a q3 mod, I can't see any of this being added to ql unless ID get desperate for new duelers.

I like these ideas.

At first I thought this might be a problem for the armour's but I guess for simple items the colors could be yellow, whitish, redish. :)

The gold, silver and bronze idea seem good. But this part " big fuck-off timer thats at the side of your screen that just literally tells you when an armor is going to spawn." thats not what i wrote, the idea is for the timer to be in the same place of the item, not on the side of the screen. So the noob not only knows when but where the item is going to respawn.

the idea of a "big fuck off timer" wasn't referring to your original post.

I see, for me your bell idea could be an option, but the whole point of a timer so he realizes that when he picks an item it has a fixed time to spawn again, for someone who has no idea of quake is much more intuitive than a bell he will be a long time knowing what it represents, diferent bells for different items? Kind of a symphony, imagine shards and +5hp balls not allowing you to here the enemy etc. Nah.

Also to build upon OPs idea:

http://puu.sh/VCSI

I dig. ^^

I'd like this as an option to give to lower skilled opponents instead of having to resort to using a heavy handicap. then again it won't make much difference by now since there isn't any new players anyway but ye that goes for pretty much all the features

all quake games always needed proper competetive tutorials, from movement to timing to even positioning, only ql has had tutorials in it so far and they are not up to par.

ppl really need some special care to understand if you wear the yellow coat the rocket wont bust your face in so hard, and if you are wearing the red one you are gold, ok its 2012 although right

actually not a bad idea have my [+]

As one of those idiots who simply can't duel, I'd like anything that would help newer players get into it.

If this had been built into the game back in 07-08 then we may have a different scene today

GET 2GD TO NOTICE THESE IDEAS FOR REBORN!

Two days ago, I was sitting on IRC just reading through logs that I've collected and I noticed that the ServeMe bot for the QuakeWorld channels has announced a new message from #qwrookie. HellTiger, an active spammer of the ServeMe bot; who asked a simple question - If anyone could create a picture inside your HUD that will give you a list of timings to work with. I decided to take up the task of creating this HUD and I came up with this:



Let me explain it to you - You pick up the armor at 0:00 - The armor will then spawn at 0:20, won't it? Take notice of what time you take your armor at and then compare it to when it'll next respawn. Now, you're thinking "the fuck, why are there little Christmas lights next to each timing?" - Well they're there to help players find out what next timing they should be getting so they don't get lost in the swarm of numbers. Simple and that. I find it quite effective.

Also, that is all 100% in-game. The wonders of ezQuake and its HUD abilities. :] Using hud_group1_picture you can easily make something like this. I think it works really well. :]

matuka2keen
This is what happens when I'm depressed. lol.

Doesn't work like this. In Warsow yes you would be able to use that thing for RA and MH since those two mostly will be picked up directly at the first spawn on second 15 of the game. In Quake Live the items are up from second 0 and players need time to reach them once they've spawned. You will have to add at least 3 seconds to each timing (5-7 are more realistical on a beginner level) making the first spawntime 0:23 in your example and not 0:20.

There are tons of such huds for QL (most prominent one is zeroQL's), yet they only help with rough timing not with exact one. There isn't a easy way to time you have to learn to calculate any number from 0 to 59 plus 25 or 35 and then remember the result in your head.

I think you've missed the point, not saying you're wrong, but you've missed the point. I'm not saying I'm always right, but I'm pretty sure we're helping beginners get better at timing items, we're not telling the next czm to time each item down to the millisecond but rather teach them to time it efficiently, theres a difference between timing an item and timing it efficiently. Only at a higher skill level will you be able to do the maths for any second. That being said, taking an item on anything that isn't a 0 or a 5 is pretty inefficient - You'll only be making it harder for yourself, which is what people are trying to remedy. In QuakeWorld, timing items is quite simple as its an easy number to work with (20 for armors, mh is relative; has to be down to 100 and then add 20), most QuakeWorld players try and pick up armors on either a 0 or a 5, it just makes it a lot easier, some of the better players synchronize their items up with other items (I know that QuakePhil enjoys timing the Red and MH at the same time on dm6). That being said there are certain situations where players are unable to do that due to certain circumstances that are happening in the environment that the player is in.

Waiting to take items on 0 or 5 makes you predictable, you only can do that when you have control.

Also there are shittons of guides to timing. A general rule for beginners is to only add 20 instead of 25 and 30 instead of 35 like this they will be in time even if they get stuck on a corner or take a longer route. Such a timing table only takes away space on your display and disturbs you. Adding 20/30 to a certain number is a task even a 1st grade pupil will be able to accomplish, remembering the time is much more difficult but there you just can repeat the time in your head.

I think you've missed the point, not saying you're wrong, but you've missed the point. I'm not saying I'm always right, but I'm pretty sure we're helping beginners get better at timing items, we're not telling the next czm

You are missing my point.

you two must really suck at arguing if u both missed the point >D

the timing isn't right

:D

Have a plus for that one this just made me laugh :D

tl;dr for 2gd: items must not spawn on 5 second intervals (5-15-25-35). All have to end in 0 (10-20-30, etc.) so it's easier to time them.
For example armors should spawn every 20 or 30 secs, not 25.

Unnecessary complexity.

writes the best post ever. Unnoticed.

So you make an offtopic post about reborn in a ql thread, directed at 2gd, and you say its the best post ever? cmon :)

Best.Ever.

O.K. :D

Thinking better the item shouldnt disappear when picked up, otherwise the noob may not remember what item is going to appear there next time. To help the newb associate what items appear on what places, upon pickup, replace the textured item by its wireframe, wires colored in accordance to the item (red wires for red armor, blue for mega, etc) and ontop of the wireframe model of the item put the timer, when the item spawns the timer disappears and the item can be seen fully with all and textures. Always thruwalls. It can be also used on normal servers when doing warmup, like happens with player spawn point ghosts.