All this innovations are cool and etc.

There are one million more obvious ways to improve quake.

The only problem that we will never see them in Quake as iD just doesn't care.

i see people correct people who writes "iD", "ID", "Id" every time, still people contiue to make this mistake. its quite funny actuallz

and nobody gives a shit

u dont

naturally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laxyoaHOP1c

It will fail because:

a) if the higher elo player loses he will *always* blame it on the system being inaccurate

b) most people couldn't give two fucks about fair play anyway and would rather not use that system

In response to b)

I'm so old, back in my day you earned your quake skills, you got raped until you could rape someone else. Sadly that's suppose to be a joke but it's really true in quake/competitive play.


Seems like something you would hear from the old days from your dad or granddad when they were a kid(interesting). Is this really an issue of old style games like mario vs the new <or> old ideologies vs newer generation ones. Quake is definitely behind in it's times; is that a good thing or bad thing? :o


I have definitely been conditioned slowly to think like this, and I think people with rage/ego/immaturity issues seem to cross this line pretty easily. Although IMO this in the long run might be a hindrance if crossed too quickly. I generally play for a challenging and stimulating game and to play smart, but if I think I have the odds over someone I'll play-to-win more often now. Playing to win generally gives you the edge even if it seems cocky, arrogant or over confident to the other player's. It's just how it is(Btw I struggle with this often when I play, but playing tipsy or taking breaks seems to mitigate this a bit lol).


I think a better approach is to make the early learning steps more accessible through text guides, in-game guides and gamemodes opposed to giving a player a health/armour increase -- when handicap almost gives you the same effect. Ideally a larger player population fixes most skill discrepancies(Grumlouze points this out nicely). There are plenty of people willing to get raped by good/pro players, its a good learning tool. I think the flip side could also be thought about. If you're truly a good player your going to get bored of playing newbs, so making it less boring for the good/pro players could be a good thing as well because they would be more likely to play on public server against anyone. shrugs something different to think about. :)

Btw i'm not leaning to any side, i'm just glad there's some sort of conversation about this topic :)

If you want to get good you trainalot. OK. Unfortunately back in the day the skill gap wasn't so devastating like it is now.

Also not only you but other users as well seem to not make the distinction between "Closer skills" and equal skill. The idea is not to make the better player lose 50% of his matches against weaker opponents, but to diminish the gap. That's why I said "half the difference that there is between the proportion of their aim", and not calling for direct proportion. The more experienced player would win even so, because the knowledge of the map, better moving, etc. This could be fixed to work as it should after, anyway. The most important goal here is to remove those over 50% scores that are right now in QL matches which represent pure rape. Of course that there will come some pro players or other and say that they had fun getting raped. Getting raped is one of the very reason why beginners never get the taste of the game, imo.

I like the intention of the idea. Given a small playerbase it makes sense to want some sort of measure to keep new players from getting discouraged from playing. This is what most games have evolved too and almost gets insulting at times when you get an achievement for pressing a key for example. But I don't see this as a bad thing for the most part, as long as the core mechanics of the game aren't affected and it helps push you forward. So I don't think it would hurt for games like ql to follow this trend as long as it's done properly.


My only concern is if this isn't done properly it wouldn't work and also would this actually be effective and work as intended. I would assume this would have to be unranked and would be played by newbs, casual players and people bored out of their mind and perhaps pros who knows. Also you gotta think of the receiving end, would this be fun for better players? Would they get a blow to the ego? Could these game's be a vehicle for trolls to harass players? I think the bolder you draw this line between actual duel and your duel mode the better. Obviously watching most* pros they get bored already playing a new players, these pro's/amateurs/w.e aren't challenged so both crowds need to be pleased for the most part. Maybe you could skew things and just make sure the person getting nerfed will always win(shrugs), just making the score line is closer. Just so you know when you alter the balance of the game, you give the underdog more chances to win regardless of some skills. The funny thing is either way I think new players should just avoid playing experienced players and find people near their skill level or just have means of handling defeat. The effects of defeat can be mitigated :) At any rate you'll still have newbs/scrubs/trolls complaining, regardless of lack of rape and closer game's.

Also not only you but other users as well seem to not make the distinction between "Closer skills" and equal skill.

This sort bugs me the distinction between "closer skills" and "equal skill". I don't think there will ever be a proper way to measure skills and compare. We do have some means of explaining skill like win performance(who you can beat), aim, movement, timing, weapon selection, decision making etc but they aren't concrete and they are very temperamental. You can be a pro and have all of those but can still get raped by giving up, playing wreckless or going overly aggressive. O man I'm getting depressed from all this over analyzing, So the most ideal solution's should involve new players learning the movement, how to use each weapon effectively, getting them involved in the community and promote the sort of mentality that gives people motivation to improve be it through leagues, koths, cups, friends, foes, ladders, challenges, achievements etc --accessibility is key-- :)


Just so you know I'm not attacking you, I think your idea is alright. It wouldn't be too hard to at least try out, for it's similar to those sampler server and mod of the week things.

Would it make ql popular? probably not
Would it be in the right direction? for sure <3

People could also practice and become better, actually better.

It's not exactly rocket science, matchmaking + big enough playerbase = fair matches for everyone.

QuakeLive was the perfect opportunity to finally have fair matches in Quake since they had centralized data about every players. The only closest thing we got to a matchmaking was the duel detective which for some reasons they decided to take away.

The thing I regret the most about QuakeLive is that the playerbase, without being really huge like a SC2/LoL, was really far sufficient to have a proper matchmaking implemented, and it could have really helped retain a lot of players.

It basically comes down to this.

I guess if you use the right combination of stat's this might work. I'm guessing a combination of things like dmg done, item control, successful shots and frags.

If aim was solely used it wouldn't really work, and could even be exploited by the better player. I find in closer games a good player's aim will go down so this could give the other player a health buff for no reason. The reason aim can go down on good games/fights is because they need to spam a tad bit more for those last few shots or to intimidate(which is more effective against high tier players imo).

I think most cases "rape" is just lack of knowledge where the newb player is just running into protocol like spam off spawns and never seeing armours/mega's. I guess all we can do is just speculate atm although I think this sort of idea would need to be tested and tweaked in a server for a better cause and effect analysis. From other threads that timing idea is probably the most promising imo.

Look, Quake Live will NEVER become a popular game. Gimping good players will never keep new players around. If anything it will just push away veterans. Who the fuck wants to play with an involuntary handicap?

Even more importantly, why would you want to play against someone who is being handicapped? You might win the match, but who cares? It's meaningless. I predict playing with these handicaps will just freeze people at their current skill. Why get better if being worse gives me an advantage in the match?

And we all know that most Quake Live players will just exploit the system, sandbag a few duels and then destroy honest players.

It's amazing to me that people have the mindset of hurting those who work hard to improve themselves, and reward those who might not try as hard. Not just in Quake Live but life in general. It's really sad how many people just want everything handed to them. Everyone just wants a quick fix to their problems instead of really analyzing themselves and figuring out what they are doing wrong, and then working to fix their problems.

lazy players and the market itself can't be blamed. Those are just issues companies have to tackle, and if they don't it's the company's fault.

and btw quakers aren't special. The very same problems arise in every single game.

you got some points but I like to handicap myself by taking no mh or ra when my opponent doesnt know item timing at all or his basic weapon knowledge and his aim just sucks compared to mine (ye my aim sucks too but there is always someone worse...).

Its more fun for the handicaped guy since he have to put more effort for a win and maybe its more fun for the one who doesnt get raped but actually get a chance to have a close game or even to win it.
I lost some matches because I let a noob getting in lead by 1 frag and 1 min to go... he will extremly +back and sometimes I cant get him anymore. I dont care about loosing anyway since: its just a fcking game.

agreed... if a player wants to play with a handicap he can enforce his own voluntary handicap

I also do that and I think I was the only crazy guy doing that.
I never understood what people found fun in stomping your opponent 40-0. I mean I get that beating rapha 40-0 could be exciting but when you are against people worse than nightmare bots I don't really see the appeal.
Plus I always feel that if they have a nice game once in a while without having their opponent insulting them, maybe they will actually want to keep duelling.

There are various things that could make the skills closer between various groups of players. Your solution is one for all people which I don't think works, you need to target select demographics within Quake and promote skills there.

For example I was trying to show someone how to play and within a couple hours they were LG'ing bots to death on Hardcore/ Nightmare yet they couldn't jump from LG to RA/YA on Thunderstruck as it requires slight mouse-movement. Similarly, they were able to run around headlessly and kill bots on ZTN to win a duel but they had no concept of timing, nor could they jump to RA when I told them to.

Firstly, I would suggest better bots, which I feel is a threefold effort. A) they must move quicker (or strafe jump) as when I started online I was amazed at how quick people were in comparison and it took me months to adjust to it. B) They need to be able to complete a various amount of jumps and rocket jumps (even the occasional plasma climb) that you would expect the lower echelons to be able to perform. C) They don't dodge. Working up your aim against bots to a solid 35% means nothing if when you join the lowest skill FFA you hit 10%.

To supplement these changes (which may be impossible/ resource extreme) you should be able to do various things which other Quake have allowed. A sort of DeFrag for various maps which highlights basic to advanced movement abilities. If you could do a mission/ checkpoint run-through of ZTN where you must RJ from lower YA to SG and RJ from lower YA to RL and all of the other ones then you can practice in a more systematic and noob-friendly way than simply creating a server and trying over and over again. (The reasons are multiple to suggest why a DeFrag mode is better than just practising, mainly its far more fun to meet checkpoints and succeed than just have an empty server). Equally an extended strafe jump and rocket jump (plasma and grenade jumps) tutorial is a basic necessity for people to learn how to jump.

On duel servers (practice mode or online) a command should be available for people to vote on the item timers being present at the side for both players (or just one if they like) which readjusts the focus of a duel from randomly running around to an item-centric match. These are like training wheels for people, even perhaps useful to people who are good but out of practice to reclaim lost skill in the time they had stopped. This could apply to CTF and TDM as well.

On offline (bots) servers I wonder if it would be possible to set a ping for yourself, similar to timenudge, so you can get used to learning the game under the same connection-feel as when you move to online.

You may feel a large emphasis on bots and that's because the player base ins't sufficiently big to find a skill-match for new players even in the lowest servers. Bots provide a safe and repeatable atmosphere to hone the most basic skills and through tutorials and practise on suggested practise modes they could transition to online play with less of a learning curve.

Finally I feel that one thing underpins all of this. If you spend hours practising a jump on a map in an empty server there is no reward or incentive for you to even try. Moving to a DeFrag setting builds a competition around yourself (can you do it quicker, better, can you get further than last time? ect.) but then to add another element to the whole process an achievement system way beyond the current one. Building a full achievment system (like the one in world of warcraft, so if you went to the DeFrag I propose then you could hit a key and the tab opens with all of the things you can do and then you find what you want to do and there is incentive. Online leaderboards and friend-circles (like Google plus so you can compete against friends).

Once people can get the basics down they can go and play something which is usually Clan Arena, which sucks. So Domination should be free because its awesome, fast-paced, newb-friendly and is addictive and all kinds of fun. Domination also limits how effective one person can be and can be dominated by an awesome player but they can only be in one place at a time. Should magically the playerbase grow then you could do 4 or 5 capture-places domination which further mitigates the impact of a varying skill levels. If then new people can have fun and learn to play in a rewarding and responsive environment they might check out duel or tdm where they can learn timing from the systems and the jumps from DeFrag whilst they have the essential Quake basics down from Domination.

I feel naively idealistic writing this and I'm sure it's flawed in a thousand ways but I can't fathom many other ways to make skill levels more equal (and to do create new players at the same time) than some of the things I have proposed.

I don't understand this whole "trying to give new players free wins will make the game popular like CoD!"

indeed people should be aware of that it takes shitloads amounts of time to reach and stay at pro level. esp for duel, other modes are ok for newbies.

I already said "The idea is not to make the better player lose 50% of his matches against weaker opponents, but to diminish the gap"

maybe it would be more effective in tdm?

Let's say that I am ELO 666 and rapha is ELO 12 (according to his age). Then he will start with a good 140 health and for him the values of RA and MH will be 160 and respectively 200 while for me the values will stay to default.

so the outcome of any duel will be random in the future if you are dictating ql?

no, but it will make me not to own so hard rapha as well as it will make him playing fiercely because he should see that he have a chance to win the match against me

y'all posting in a troll thread....

surely.

Have a handicap system akin to golf or squash, as in the better player has to do more work to win.

Lets pick a map, map A

Players 1 & 2

The avg score on map A is around 10 frags to win the game.

Player 1 is 150 elo higher than player 2

*insert magical injx formula here*

Player 2 gets 3 frags on the scoreboard at the start of the game.

etc