I'm sure Nined has some ace ideas for Shamanatria

Looking forward to it :)

I think its hard to say, my main problem with the map is that its extremly one sided, theres really no existing alternative to playing rail/red, since that area is so strong. Not only does it give you both rail/red and a good overview over the LG, but its very hard to attack since it also offers you the highground advantage.

You got two ways to attack the rail, either through a jumppad, or that tiny, tiny ledge from the mega/ya direction. Either way you'll be screwed.

But atleast you're aware of the lack of health, ++.

im not the most qualified guy to state on the map. but in my oppinion the little ledge from mh-room to rail is too small for tdm. You cant even attack from there. Maybe you could even switch the position of the rail to this ledge.
I agree with funnybs oppinion.

Maybe I can put the rail somewhere else, like at mega ya, and put something less effective of a defence in its place, like non-weapon items. eg a few ammo crates, couple of hp bubbles. Then remove the door at RA so you can snipe through it, if you can time the RA you can try and get some angles on it with the rail. I'll try and think about it anyway.

The door idea isn't all bad, other than that I do believe the rail needs to be in an area of importance, well it actually makes any area important on its own but it should be a defendable area, sort of like the shaft.

Possibly where the rl is atm, above the YA.

Yea, its way to one sided. Only thing i think it needs is new weapon placements. I'd put the RG in the water (where LG is now) and LG above the YA (where the RL is now), one RL on top (where the rail is) and swap PG and the second RL. Then there would be RG/RA side and LG/YA/MEGA side. Dunno if LG and RG would be too close though.

This map won't become slow like dm14 (unless it gets even more health and more spawns), so a split of sides with two weapons won't work that well.

I'm in love with Dreadful Place's layout of contestable weapons between two main areas and here we see very similar idea. The only real complaint is the railgun platform, so I've proposed 3 ways of how to improve that situation, should be enough for everyone! :)

Yes, this map is kind of meant to be like campgrounds, the edge, and aerowalk (you can see for example, the RA area is similar to AW, in a way - the items in that area anyway), all maps where you have to pull some crazy moves to get back control (or really rally your team and benefit from great tactics and teamwork). I really like it that way, so not too sure about perfect balance, I find those kind of maps make fights seem forced, because you either side doesn't feel any pressure to fight Oo

In a bit of a rush atm so might not have explained myself that well, but I'll be back later :D

I never ment it to be a slow map, just more balanced weaponwise so the whole map will be 'used'. As you posted yourself, the map becomes alot cessy with allmost every major item on one half of the map and with little health. Its the only way to comeback if you lost position when weapons are as they are now. I think more of it as campground'ish than dreadful place. I like your ideas too, just not about changing quadposition.

terminatria is fine, you need to fix only runny

Runny?

he is talking about runny

I don't care about duel layout, below is only about 4v4.


Terminatria has total of 525 HP in all bubbles (1*MH, 1*50, 14*25, 5*5) and 225 armor (1*RA, 2*YA, 5 shards).

From all maps that are still played in competitions, only Deep Inside has similar health+armor: 525/235. Even Hidden Fortress is 590/225 (and needs more). All the "new" maps (Purgatory, Dreadful Place, Limbus, Terminus) all have 780-885 health and 230-320 armor.

With so little health on the map, the game becomes a bit too cessy at times - winning a fight is irrelevant if the dude you've just killed spawns next to you and finishes with MG when you have no bubble to fall back onto.

So yeah, Terminatria needs more health. I'd say 3 50s and 4 25s.


Map being one-sided is not necessarily a bad thing - especially in pickups this kind of map plays decent because everyone quickly learns what position to hold and to recognize when mates are preparing for an attack.


But there are two possibilities to make the situation a bit better:


1. Make the "in control" position weaker by forcing the controlling team to lose position to get items. LG is already like that - even though it's closer to RA, if both teams have timing on it, big fights happen there.

So now Imagine we switch RG and Quad on the map. Good position on top would make for nice defendable quad, meanwhile railgun would become contestable.

This is much like Dreadful Place - and we love that map both because of quad setups and attacks, and also because the main two weapons are to be fought over each time.


2. Make it easier to attack the top RG position to regain control. Right now there are two jump pads, door from RA and a very thin ledge.

2a. (I think cityy talked about this) The back jump pad can be replaced with a teleporter. Sitting on top you still see/hear the people approaching it, but you'd lose the easy shots mid-air. Tele exit should be close, so I can hear someone ready with a pummel from below and put nades there.

2b. The catwalk or whatever you call that, from MH/PG, is railable all the way from RA. Then you need to sneak on a very thin ledge and it's impossible to attack from there, unless mates are entering from RA.

So you can:
- add some hiding place to prepare attack without being railed from RA,
- make the catwalk longer to allow jumping across over the big JP,
- make the ledge wider,
- add some shards/5 bubbles to add sound warnings :)

Someone broke my image while approving! Here's an imgur copy: http://i.imgur.com/k4OeO.jpg

This would be awesome. Loving the idea.

Quad-RG switch also sounds good. (Maybe both?)

Looks good to me :)

Thanks, I can tell you put a lot of thought into that :)
I like the ideas a lot!

was talking about this catwalk jumpover idea.
You can make it slightly longer but it would be cool to add a barricade at the end.

If my POV was looking at RA doors from the catwalk, a box at the end of it could be means for me to do a jump over to RA doors, hide from the railer, and if I were apt at moving like funnyB :D then i could do a doublejump and just rush the RA door guy, or even fly over and shaft/rail/rocket the guy camping rail.

That sort of of box would bring some dodge as well as some creative move options. Tho it doesn't have to be a box, it can be just a vertical ledge.

Nice idea :D Thanks.

I'll ask sync if I can get the updated map and try some of these things out.

++fps

I like large maps.Its faster and better for movement and fast placed attacks.Terminatria should have more bubbles and QUAD is somehow awkward to get to, maybe some little changes there would be apreciated.

Does anyone have demos for a Terminatria frag movie? :)

1st frag was 1000% shamanic))) like the movie
shamanic drop made me loled)

Wow, nice :DDDDD

worst thing about terminatria is its performance. I have only 80 fps in the ra / rail area :(

There isn't much I can do about it :(
The problem is all the curves, and the style of the map. I really worked hard on the performance, to try and make that style perform as well as I could. But usually with that amount of curves, you have to block rooms off with L shaped corridors (like how the mid in Retribution is), which slows the gameplay down. You have to block each room off like that so you can't see them from any angle from one room to the next, then each room is drawn only when you're in it. So some areas in the map, the game can 'see' a lot, so its processing things it doesn't really have to.

Something I can do is to remove the backs off some pipes, so the back of them isn't processed, pipes can really slow down the performance. I done it on the main white pipes in mid, but think theres some more I can do.

With that in mind, one of the best ways to get more performance on the map is with r_subdivisions 80, it almost halves the r_speeds.

I already removed the backs of the pipes, did that prior to release.

Ahh nice one, thanks mate :)

Shame on me, how missed SUCH shamanic thread :-)

Terminatria is 100% shamanic friendly map and need may be some minor (small) changes, i like the idea proposed by Lam to add shards/apples on plasma to rail path, not sure about quad-rail switch but:

1. if u team is out of control (or fresh potat spawned) u can always take quad, cause its completely uncontollable and zeroquadable. So you can do more shamanic quad steal/zero/minus

2. rail+ra position, well, hmmm. Like the idea of dm3 map from quake 2, with lava pipe, so enemy can push a button somewhere far away from rail/quad area and rail/quad area become gazed, lava, tornadaded, earthquaked) So the idea is make rail or quad very very dangerous area to control/take. And it will make game more fun and more shamanic-friendly. Imagine quad is on some box that can be filled with lava/closed like jail box by pushung button from somewhere (visible or half visible). Enemy on QUAD, going to take it...some shamanic delay it)

3. May be quad area need some guard fence from upper railers and rocketpad jumpers :-) or some kind of escape tele


The only thing make me mad on this map is when u got 1hp and found uself on 3th floor (upper RL) and need to take that damn 50hp bubble ..u jump ...mouse slide..rage))

Overall map is balanced but need some shamanic buttons to make enemy not easy life.

The most funny thing on this map is that u can rail from low ground to RA and rail in the air, so f**** sexy)

I could make the centre of the quad platform a hole, so you have to fall into it to get the quad, then at the bottom of the hole is a tele. If you push a button then the tele closes up and the hole fills with coolant, killing the guy who tried to take quad (but if you're too slow, then it will either deny the quad pickup for some time, or they will make it through and tele out nearby). So it means you have to guard the button before you can get quad. Maybe it would be cool if the quad tele leads to the button area, so it makes it even more important for your team to be there, either to kill the quad, or stop him being killed.

Its interesting... not sure how well it will work in practice. Have to think about it.

Yeah I think the 50hp could be a little bit easier to jump to :)

If youre really considering such a change, you could aswell make it as the BFG platform on some space ctf map. Just leave quad as it is, but the roof crushes you when someone shoot at a button. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DdLloltEOc

Quad is already in a very dangerous spot and often you escape with it with 20 hp, or steal it and die immediately. But at least you have chance to get it and escape, even out of control (if your timing is good).

With a squishing roof like on Beyond Reality, most quads would probably get squished without anyone even jumping down there.

OR there would be a delay before you can squish again, so team in control would always lower the roof few seconds before quad time, so it's safe when the PU appears.

First option means you need big luck to even get quad in a match (why not make a non-PU map then?), second means little change compared to how it is now, but with additional factor of possible bad luck when getting it.

Either way, not a change we want for a competitive map.


Originally this idea started with idea from Foolish Legacy (I think), where there's a lava pit controlled with a button, and also a whole corridor (from BS to quad) that you can open and maybe get squished if you stay too long.

But on that map, you can't deny a powerup that hasn't been picked up, and both "traps" work slow so the enemy needs to actually shoot you to push you in / keep you trapped, otherwise you'll jump away happily.

That's world's difference compared to a kill button. TDM is about shooting enemy, not pushing stupid buttons that do this for you without possibility of taking any damage back.


The other idea, a hole with a teleporter below, is also something taking away from the gameplay. It would all become camping for the tele exit. No quick thinking of escape route, no way to hold it for a team mate, no way to come stacked and be a hero. There would be a new element of both teams fighting for position around the tele exit, and maybe some epic escapes, but rather rare IMHO.

Unless the exit is really far away and not on the top - so each player would need to pick whether he prefers to be around and fight for quad, or to secure the exit. But then we'd see teams not showing up, quads being delayed for minutes, and even bigger importance of lucky respawns.


I mean, all that stuff would introduce new elements to the game, but I'm skeptic whether TDM players (people accustomed to maps with specific types of quad setups) would want to explore that new land :) We don't want the map to stop being played, right?


PS. nightops, any epic frags from your decider vs sitto? :)

tl;dr: those ideas probably won't be accepted by the TDM community.

Maybe I should start replying to each idea under its post.

I only suggested it if he really considered such a change. I totally agree with you that he should not tho.

Hehe, i can send you demo if you'd like ;)

Yeah, thats why I said its interesting, but I have to think about it... it sounds a bit over complicated to me atm. I was hoping I could think of something clever but simple.

I was thinking maybe the 50h room could be nice for the Quad (right in the centre of the room on the floor), would be less random than having it in mid.

I actually kinda like it. Very fast paced and aggressive.
When ppl get good on it I think it will become a rail hell, so you might want to place the rail where its hard to get / but easy to attack/deny.

Overall:

1. add more apples/shards
2. No neeed to switch rg/quad
---------shamanic changes-------------
3. Quad is on the same place but located in some hollow pit on the same platform but u need to drop like marine, how to say..quad is on the same platform but are IN hole/pit/down/hollow on quad floor (a box underearth) with escape tele to rail (!!!).so, tele + standart escape with ladded/jumpad
4. Near quad there is a small shamanic trigger that closes rail area (some kind of transaprent fence) for 5 seconds to prevent brainless railers
and the last
5. Somewhere half visible (need shamanic team coordination) there is another shamanic trigger-button that fill quad pit/hole/ with lava for 5 seconds

1000% shamanic, doesnt it?)

p.s. or just simple make quad grid box opened by firing 100hp damage with RL, GL, so u need Rl to take quad, nice team coordination

Terminatria sweet terminatria, noone wants play on you ;-(

you should create a thread with the shamanic videos

don't change anything, best map

You don't even want more health on it?

No way, its more aggressive without.

I have been working on a test version of the map, easiest just to show the screenshots:

http://erasem.com/term/shot0121.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0136.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0137.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0140.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0143.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0144.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0157.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0158.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0159.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0160.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0161.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/shot0162.jpg

You can see pretty much every change in there, also can see I've been experimenting with some crates for some jumps. Here is the total HP and armour in the map:
100x1
50x1
25x2
25+25+30 (shards)
Total: 280 Armour

100 x1 100
50 x5 250
25 x8 200
5 x10 50
Total: 600 HP

I also made a duel version, I'll upload some shots later (done). But essentially the difference is, the 50h/GL room and the YA/RL room is blocked off, MH is in mid with a YA in the old MH spot (also the RG is in that room, same as where I put it in the TDM version). I just need to see if I can get all the changes into one map, so it loads the duel version when you're in the duel mode, and vice versa with the TDM version.

Shots:
http://erasem.com/term/duel/shot0170.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/duel/shot0172.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/duel/shot0173.jpg
http://erasem.com/term/duel/shot0174.jpg

Let me know if you have any ideas, some things in screenshots I put there just to see what reaction it'd get (like the dual 50hp bubbles with 5hp around them), so feel free to say what you want about it. But most things have been based on suggestions I got here.

I just wanted to say it would be interested to switch RG and MH YA and maybe put an extra SG in front of they RG-RA side jumppad, but these new changes even better =))

I just wish the main color theme would be a bit lighter (black xhair fml)

At first glance - there are too many changes that contradict each other.

The (former) railgun area was criticized as being too easy to control / too hard to attack, so there were few proposals how to change it (teleporter instead of JP, easier access from MH top, moving railgun somewhere else). But looks like all of them were implemented at the same time.

With the new safer ways to access it and health being available on top, rail can stay where it was. This will guarantee more fights over weapons (which I love and best pickup maps use this style), as opposed to the new project, where rail gets its own room with another strong item (MH) and would be controlled for minutes (a bit like Deep Inside).

This is the opposite of what people wanted, assuming they wanted more fight and less strong/defensive control over railgun (maybe I'm wrong).


Boxes at red will be too risky to use, but don't bother me.


The changes around quad aren't bad, but I'm not a fan either. It's now impossible to attack straight from the LG water and that staircase was used to hide from the team controlling the top. Now there's no place to hide and no way to attack from the very bottom, so _everyone_ will have to gather on top in advance. Mega team jumping through to the 5 hp bubbles and again sitting on very thin ledge, making them vulnerable. I don't know how I feel about this. I can think of ways to improve the situation, but that would mean rebuilding even more, and the map already looks completely different than before ;)


PS. I barely see anything there, have you tried adding light to the map? :)

By screenshots alone, that looks a lot better. Would love to be able to jump around on it though!

It's funny how different the map looks when you're designing it than how it looks when I'm playing it in-game :D

If you don't keep the teleporter to where RG was, I think you should at least change the pad there, because it is weird looking. That's all the expert feedback I have, see you next time!

i like it

holy cow, thats how a teleporter could look like, if you turn up the graphixxxxx .. omg

my god dude, screenshots look amazing!!!!!!!!!!

As for the changes, I get a similar feeling to what Lam said. Changing everything will cause next series of issues with the map possibly.

I'll try to imagine how this would feel in game, but other than testing it out, anything goes.

but seriously, those pics look badass, gg well done!

I've only played it a couple of times but to me the map felt dark (I don't like the space feel of any maps, but at least dismemb and aero become a pale grey on low detail) and many areas felt cramped - particularly quad.
I know you mentioned DM6 and that quad is cramped too, perhaps delete the thing that it rests upon and level the floor out (which would make it more similar to DM6). The stairs and unlevel approach just clunks the hell out of it (but may provide needed protection, so perhaps a less intrusive aspect of defense would be needed).
Like I said though, not really done much on the map or much TDM.