hardcore quake: no hud, no crosshair, 2x damage

No hud would fuck me over big time, but it's actually not _that_ hard to play without crosshair. Try it.

that's cod hardcore mode btw.

exactly the kind of thing you shouldn't claim to know or care about

no idea what you mean. Nowadays I play that like 10 times more than quake lol, it's pretty addicting.

Yes, but there's more spray and you can aim down the sights if needed.

kamikaze item should have 50 charges and grant carrier invulnerability

invisibility and flight as default , exzessive+

less ammo in all weapons :D

15sg,gl,rl
100lg,pg
5rg

pretty sure this can be set by the mapper

it's insanely fucking retarded that standing on a spawn doubles your base ammo.

5 rl
50 lg
50 pg
5 rails
100 mg
5 gl
5 sg

ammo boxes to add more to the base ammo. standing on weapon spawn does not give ammo over base ammo given

that's just too hardcore

hahahahahah

Well in Q3 it was +1 to the ammo if you pick the same weapon again while you have the base ammo (10 for RL, 100 for LG etc). I agree that its stupid you get the base ammo added again (+10, +100 etc) and makes it a spamfest.

I think the Q3 style is much better (less spam, more brain), and this puts ammo boxes into the game. Otherwise in QL you remember about their existence only when you are cornered somewhere and have no way out.

in my opinion, having both the weapon respawn time of 5 seconds and 25 ammos max (e.g. for RL and RG) is not so good because it supports spam too much.
I think that waiting 5 seconds on a respawn and collecting 20 rockets or 20 rails is not how it should be.
Either lower the ammos for every pickup or increase respawn time could be a solution.

Q3 system was better. It's an annoying change imo. I've never heard a (good) reason for that besides "TDM would be so hard if you'd have to collect ammo boxes".

I have no idea why weapons respawn every 5 seconds in duel. That's way too much free ammo and timing weapons makes the game a bit more complex. 10-15 secs anyone?

imo delayed weapons should be limited to just specific scenarios on some maps, like rail on T4 or Sinister... 15 seconds is a LONG time in Quake, and having ALL weapons with this delay would make it a fucking nightmare for the player out of control for a number of reasons.

That said, I am a noob, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe if lots of people really are concerned about weapons giving too much ammo on second pickup, then just revert it to the Q3 system.

how about 10 secs.

Judging by the sound of it, I'm in favour of q3 system.
10 seconds is too much.

yes, longer respawn can be pain in ass, especially if its as long as rg @ sinister

but on the other hand it gives more control possibilities...

Walking is too fucking slow. Up walking speed or make gauntlet have no footsteps or make the sound system work like in OSP so you can't hear all over the map.

What adding ammo boxes does is it makes both players move much more around the map and thus tones down the camping aspect since you HAVE to move to have the ammo to defend yourself or attack someone. Now the player out of control needs more ammo than the player in control because of the stack differences, so he has to move around all the time. Now when the player in control hears everything it's really hard to outplay him and fake him going into wrong direction because he can hear too early that he has been faked and since he has the stack he can just strafejump to cover the other option. Now because of the slow walking speed you don't get out of the hearing distance soon enough to make it viable move. This also works vice versa - it's really hard to lay traps on the player out of control because he hears everything.

And make the weapons hit hard but hard to hit, so good traps get valued more and the traps that currently do semi damage, just because they can recover really easy with the easy hitting weapons, have more value.

AKA make it more prediction based (OSP) not reaction based (QL), because the first actually needs some brain.

What was different in OSP? Never played it.

Weapons in general were harder to hit with, but they did more damage when you hit with them. So in comparison if you wanted to hit with rail you had to aim slightly in front of your opponent aka predict where he is going to be when the shot is going to happen. In QL you can just track slightly after him and the shots will hit giving the players huge accuracies. This also meant that if you got bounced around with shaft in hand it was really hard for you to lock onto your opponent unlike now in QL where if you get bounced with a shaft, your opponent with a rl is fucked because you can lock onto him easy. This also meant that there were a lot more traps that were actually useful. + the ammo system mentioned above.

You couldn't hear as much around the map as you can now in QL. For example if you were sitting on red on aerowalk you didn't hear him if he was waiting with a railgun downstairs or not. This meant that it was easier and safer to navigate over the map because you didn't have to worry about him hearing. This also meant that if he wanted to catch you off he had to make a guess about what you were going to do because he had to go much further to actually see/hear if you went the other direction or not.

Also the movement was bit floatier, had no doublejumps and the spawning system worked different. IIRC it was the furthest from the spot you died.

... harder to hit ...

This was mainly due to broken hit detection and ancient netcode, whic led to abusing RL and its half kilometer splash damage.

...the spawning system worked different. IIRC it was the furthest from the spot you died.

Im pretty sure the spawn system wasnt based around that. It felt the same as cpma, getting the same respawn location twice or three times in a row wasnt uncommon, even when you were instantly respawn fragged.

But I agree with you mostly, prediction and tactics played a huge role in OSP dueling and the games were slower.
Changing respawn system and getting only +1 ammo instead of full base shouldnt be so hard to change, as shouldnt be the distance of hearing. Anything else has the same possibility of happening as the GTV for instance, seeing as things 'progress'.

1) The sound system is far from perfect. E.g. on toxicity you can hear the mega pickup on very odd positinos.

2) I don't think that addin ammoboxes is a good idea. But it could be balanced nevertheless.

3) I disaggree on the hitting harder stuff. I don't think that more dmg does add more tactical value to a game. The difference in "tactics" from OSP to QL in my oppinion is mostly due to the maps that are played. In OSP most maps were just more "tactical" since they were more +back etc.

4) I agree that a game should be less reaction based. Thats why I don't support fast weapon changes like in CPM. I'd even recommend an even slower weapon switch from certain weapons like rail.

2) That ammo box comment went hand in hand with the notion that the ammo system will be changed to OSP one meaning that you can't doublestack on ammo from weapon spawn. With current system and pickup times it's useless, yes. If you give the players reasons to move around it would make the game more open and readable.

3) You are not addressing the whole point. If you are going to add more damage you have to make the weapons harder to hit.

The effects of it would be following:

a) It makes the weapons even more situation specific, because they are harder to hit due to their effective ranges being narrowed down and making them harder to lock on with out of position.

For example on ztn a guy dropping from nades/red against other guy who is at rail. It's a shaft vs shaft situation. Currently in QL the guy dropping does insane amount of damage if he has decent aim, even though he is the one moving in a predictable path and other not. If the shaft was harder to hit (usually means that you have to involve more strafeaim) the guy dropping would think twice because the damage outputs in that situation would be drastically different.

Second situation that you see often: a close fight with RL vs LG. The shaft guy gets bounced around and the very moment he hits air he has the upper hand because can hit more easy than the guy with RL. If the shaft would be harder to hit (which also means harder to lock onto enemy in not so ideal circumstances) it would balance the situation a lot more. In close fights RL should win against shaft most of the times. If shaft was harder to lock on with, this would be true. Currently it's not.

b) The harder locking, if you're not ready, also makes the traps more effective because the player who makes a move knows about opponent's moving path and the one falling into a trap does not know about his opponent's. So, a mistake of falling into a trap is punished more due to larger damage and harder to recover.

c) When the weapons become more situation specific and their effective ranges narrow down, this means that within a room ones position picking becomes more important. One position can not cover 3 entries anymore because the weapons are not as effective covering all entrances. This also means that if one is reading/predicting wrong, the room is much more open to attacks from the other entries.

The tactics are not only about more +backing maps and trying to circle your opponent to block the next big item, but also the different ways you can attack a room and what is needed from a player to cover it. If the player in a room can instantly react to attacks, it narrows down the amount of effective attacks and makes the game more stale.

I've actually discussed that very topic with a friend and I still disagree.
I think higher dmg per weapon (e.g. shaft) does make the game more aim heavy, independent from the hitbox (harder to hit?).
And I've discussed this over and over but I'm not going into this right now. I'll leave you with your oppinion, which is fine for me. It won't be changed anyway :D

you didnt understand a word from what he said

Just think about it this way:

If the weapons are harder to hit, how does it become more aim heavy when the accuracies are lower?

Now, if you leave the damages the same, you won't be able to kill your opponent because your accuracy is too low to get the necessary damage in. This means that you have to balance the lower accuracy with higher damage, because at the current state the ideal situation for the weapon would change too quick making the weapon useless/too weak. This is a matter of balancing and about how much harder the weapons are made to hit.

The main idea is not the amount of damage, but to make weapons harder to hit so they would not cover so many instances during a game. BUT when the correct situations come, you will get rewarded by it.

It's about time there was a discussion about the ammo system. The Q3 system makes a lot more sense. In QL it's like the ammo boxes are just there to fill in some space on the map.

Yeah I'm glad we finally made it to 2009.

QW style weapon stay... make players actually have to USE ammo boxes!

I agree with the idea - less rox in duel would mean less spam and more careful choice of shots... More rox in tdm because there's more to shoot at and longer to wait for the weapon respawn... Much bettwer idea than changing the weapon dmg like they did with mg and sg in tdm. Make the sg 100 dmg like they did before but reduce the wepon pickup ammo...

I mean yeah less ammo per pick up for duel would be good i think. I had a couple of non quake players who watched quake on twitch for the first time and they were put off with the amount of spamming there was.

i mean its ok for spam, but sometimes there is too much spam. and not enough consequence for spamming/wasting ammo. with smaller ammo pickups a player needs to be more careful with how much they spam. theoretically a player can still get 20 rockets, 150 lg ect ect, it will be just a little bit harder. makes the ammo more vital. imo

im a shitty player though, so this is just my view :)

yeah we can change this right now with pro sub game settings, but having a universal setting like this would be better overall.