Why did you make this thread instead of simply replying to him?

Atention whore... :(

dota is for pussies

welp cya

SC2 require more skill than dota.. btw. LoL is for biggest pussies.

sc2 is just so boring to me compared to bw.

It's a hard game but boring to watch. Always deathball (note: haven't watched any hots)

SC1 was better imo, but SC2 is not bad. I like watching it too.
Still, SC1 had better feeling for me, campaign was awesome too, voice acting, more dark, overmind instead of "sexy violet kerrigan" etc ;)

Gameplay is more "pro" (I mean fucking 3x harder : D), and hell, I like even the graphics much more.

SC2 is not a bad game by all means (especially the new way of presenting the campaign), but it's not "Starcraftish", the feeling just isn't there - and fails to live up to its predecessors name.

Still probably best thing which we can get :/

I'm quite content with Brood War. ^^

SC2 is too hard for me, BW is insane :P

Watch Hots, it's way more entertaining in my opinion.

I can understand Quake and StarCraft.

DotA?
LoL?

No.

Moba games has the most retarded community right now, imo.

http://i.imgur.com/JThJbgf.png

Translated to: "game for mentally retarded (dota)"

if you you will compare dota to all new games you will see that dota is very skilled game :P community is crap, but really retarded games are new fps games heh.

Sad that almost all new games are designed like "easier=better"...

once you look past mechanics all competitive games are just about good decision making. They don't vary much from each other in skill required because the skill required is relative to your opponent.

Man srsly, are you stupid? SC and Quake are really skill based and awesome games. But Dota and LoL are fucking easy. I have played a ton of LoL and Dota with friends but cmon its to easy. Its fun to play them but only for one reason, you dont have to play serously and be very focused, its games you just chill out with with friends. They are not very skill based..

I aggree, but still dota is quite good game as a NEW game. New hard game? Maybe SC2, anything more?

http://youtu.be/vDUjS0QDoe4 - dota players

I must say, after having played LoL a bit and then playing Dota for a while now that there is quite a bit more to handle in Dota.

Dota 2 is harder than lol for sure. It's really different game than RTS games, but SC2 is much more harder imo.

ive also played pub dota and its quite easy. i dont think playing it competitivly is much of a challenge??? i mean, all thats different is that my opponent will try counter-act my moves oh wait i see where the challenge comes in!!

Well, at least with being able to stack creeps and the PUs there is a good amount of timing involved in dota. The way you can handle your own creeps, deny them, push or block lanes is also something you can play out to a wide extend.
I've only played a couple of games myself but the game has a few aspects that I did not expect and that allow for a good skill gap I think.

Its a valid point you say right there! But at the same time, Its not very impressive. Ofc this is my personal opinion, but I think alot of people coming from harder games, Quake and SC will agree with me.

I dont think the skill gap is very big to be honest, and its so much about the knowledge. Its like, the best player is the one that is a geek that reads about everything (Its not a bad thing just saying). Not the one that has sick aim and personal skill, and incredible reflexes.

I have like around 400+ hours in Dota2 and quite alot in LoL aswell so Im not someone thats just guessing. But im definatly not saying I am a pro or even close to be a pro in Dota2.

cypher is the only player in quakelive who can play the game on skill. evil, rapha, bla and bla have all made their game based on KNOWLEDGE. what you're saying is so fucking dumb is horrifying

yeah u have fun with that

imo dota pub is much different than competitive match. Played few matches with people from some kind of clan, and it is other experience.

Played hundreds of hours of dota and nothing has changed my opinion. The game is mechanically simple and that definitely doesn't make it any more mentally challenging than Quake. What I do well I do the same as professional players do, and how are the rest decisions that I don't know how to do any different? It's just about stacking the knowledge and habits. No sport should be like this.

SC2, on the other hand... Well, it's really mechanically difficult. And the decision making is hard. Overall not as hard as scbw, but it's still extremely hard. Look at people like artosis, or incontrol thinking about the game all day long, practicing a lot but never hitting anywhere near top. The mechanics make the decision making harder and vice versa, in the end the game ends up exponentially more difficult and allows you to express your own talents, because it has a lot of different really difficult skills.

So, Quake & Starcraft ftw, everything else is retarded ^^

but when somebody is playing for fun, with friends it's nothing wrong to play other games.

btw. I pretty enjoyed game like Arma 3 (even if I like more unrealistic games) it's not "competitive" in standard way... but it's new and quite difficult. I liked it because it's true PC game imo (still i'm waiting for something arcade, enjoyed Tribes for a while ;] )

I certainly wouldn't say everything else is retarded :D You could take a look at fighting games, for example.

I play what I enjoy rather than what is more skillful too. Playing a lot and still hitting a cap because you can't play more than 3 hours/day on average doesn't make sense if you don't plan on becoming a progamer. So, I play dota, where I can improve without stalling that much.

Right. I'm playing right now QL and SC2, noob in both games, but ELO system is quite ok in both games so I can enjoy it ;) I like skillful games but I don't have enough of time to be on top and I don't really need it.

dota 2 has horrible matchmaking/ranking system imo :/

Yea, didn't count fighting games because I don't play them ;d

PS. but when skill is most important, that sentence:
"Quake & Starcraft ftw, everything else is retarded " is quite true ;)

You got it! One example I have is. When I play for example Enigma. Then I buy blink dagger and TP into them and get like 4-5 in my black whole. All my friends start going nuts and it seems like a big thing. But its so damn easy to do it.

Also on streams the pro do stuff that I dont get impressed by (Casters are going nuts). Its not like watching Quake, sick shots, sick rockets and such. Perfect timing, yeah you name it. Or SC2 with incredible micro and control of units.

Well I wouldn't say that getting a good black hole/lasso with bat rider/any other skill is that easy on pro level. Players don't walk into them and you have to make a few decisions whether to commit to a specific timing or to wait. And some players are better than others at it. But really, how much of the game are these decisions? Just how many of these do you make per minute? Not much compared to Quake, I say. The intensity just isn't there.

Yeah ofc, playing against better oponents will make it harder to do perfect black holes for example. But still, as you say the intensity isnt there, and I dont really get impressed when I am watching it. It feels easy.

When I watch Quake and SC I get this feeling like these players are really good, and its hyping me up wanting to watch more!

I get stunned how the pro Quake players play. Its not all about movement and aim, its so much about the positioning and remembering when the items comes up.

This is why I just cant wait for a new 1v1 duel game to get to the top of the competitive scenes. I unfortionatly missed the whole glory days of Quake cus I was playing CS. But I recently found out about this amazing game and 1v1 duel FPS is really impressing me.

"I unfortionatly missed the whole glory days of Quake cus I was playing CS."
Same here, but i was playing cod4 promod (lololol). I remember old times of Quake but on LAN, because "internet" wasn't so popular so time ago ;-)))))))))

fingers crossed for Reborn.

And I hope a lot of people will come for it, from different games, because there is no new fps game to play...

Cool, Cod4 promod is a good game! I am still playing it tbh hehe.

Yeah I hope 2GD releases a kickstarter soon for Reborn!

I liked it, but my clan/friends don't play it, so me too ;)
the problem of all old gamers are cheaters :( Recently I played Enemy Territory too. For me CS is a bit overrated (but harder than CoD), but don't liek movement, lack of freedom. etc.

Yeah well tbh I dont think CS is harder then Cod. Yeah the new Cod games are full of retarded 12 year olds that aim like chickens. But if you compare the highest level of like Cod4 promod and CS I dont see any of them as more skilled. I simply see them as the team with best individual and team skill will win! Both games are about the best aimers, reactions and tactics.

Nah, imo cod is more random, more lucky imo. I like cod4 but i think cod2 was better designed for competitive. I didn't play vcod, but I heard that it was the best. Imo CS is more about aim than CoD and teamplay and tactic is more important. CoD is more individual. For me ET/rtcw is more skilled and fun than CS and CoD.

btw. I was glad to see big lan in CoD2 http://cod2tls.com/ ;)

Well I guess this can be discussed forever.. hehe. But I have been playing CS for along time, and I think the aim is pretty much just as random as in Cod4. In CS:GO its better though.

Its like this in the older CS. You use M4 and spray on a wall and the bullets go, up-left-right. Then you reload and do it again and its awhole new spray pattern. This is impossible to know where the bullets will be going. In CS:GO they have a new system where on the M4 the bullets allways go up-left-right, and so fort.

Also the movement is ALOT better in Cod4 promod. Alot faster gameplay and harder movement to control.

"Well I guess this can be discussed forever" true ;)

I with argue with faster gameplay, in CoD there is more running... but I think movement of CS is faster but the lack of freedom sucks for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4WLmdQJgw8

don't know how to say, CoD is more quakish, because of engine.

ET:
http://youtu.be/MUDxAdUvaJI

RTCW
http://youtu.be/psfXq8hs_1M

aim, movement, faster, better teamplay. Imo best "team fps".

btw. all hail to the king, Q.

To be honest im quite sure that Bhop isnt possible in competitive play. They have taken away the air accel, so I still would say that Cod4 is faster then CS!

Who cares ;) even if difference in speed is about 5%, they still are very slow compared to Q ;)

True story!

It's just about stacking the knowledge and habits. No sport should be like this.

what? its 100% about teamplay and decision making. (and some heroes like meepo allow to differentiate yourself with micro aswell). have you ever played dota2 with a team against another organized team? cause hundreds of hours of dota playing random draft makes you as much of an expert as playing hundrets of hours of ffa

> But really, how much of the game are these decisions?

well dota has a much slower pace than quake, but making decisions less frequent doesnt mean they are less important.

what? its 100% about teamplay and decision making.

Which is based upon the knowledge and habits on using it the right way. Micro is nowhere near the level of a good RTS, it's absurd even comparing it.


Edit: Since you're taking so long to reply and I have a bit of time, I guess I can elaborate a little on this part. I don't mean to say that teamplay isn't extremely important in dota, but unlike in Quake what a player can do is more determined because you can only do what your hero with whatever items it has can, so teamplay is incredibly associated and largely dependant upon knowledge, and then habits on executing it with a team.
As for decisions, they're even more obviously too dependent upon knowledge. And awareness with anticipatory reflexes (just not as often as in quake it depends on these), I guess.

well dota has a much slower pace than quake, but making decisions less frequent doesnt mean they are less important.

Of course, but then with less skills it comes down to a perfection of a few skills rather than competition in a a lot of different skills. It's like football vs. a penalty kicks game - you can't really say that the penalty kicks game is less competitive if as many people put as much effort into it, but once you look at the skills both take... You can't really say it's as skillful either. The fact that dota is a 100 penalty kicks games with a 100 different balls and a 100 different gates makes it even more about the attention to detail rather than anything else.

Micro is nowhere near the level of a good RTS, it's absurd even comparing it.

whos comparing it? im just saying that there is enough room to differentiate yourself with micro in dota2 aswell. not really in simple situations like early game last hitting or so, but certainly in situations where you have multiple units etc.

Which is based upon the knowledge and habits on using it the right way.

i really dont think decision making in quake is any less build on habits, what makes you think so?
what exactly do you mean when you say knowledge btw? im not sure im following.

i dont see how you can say that dota needs fewer skills to perfect. teamplay is unbelivably complex and so far every big event has shown us new things. but i dont want to make the same mistake, you cant compare quake duel to dota2. there is no equivalent to what quake demands from the player, but there is also no equivalent to what dota demands from the player, hero combinations (both in picking and playing) etc just dont translate into anything quakeish

hos comparing it? im just saying that there is enough room to differentiate yourself with micro in dota2 aswell. not really in simple situations like early game last hitting or so, but certainly in situations where you have multiple units etc.

I am. It's little to no micro compared to a good RTS. Ignoring that is naive. It makes the differentiation either "Those who do perfectly and those who don't", or "it's not really important but these 3 people do it almost perfectly".

i really dont think decision making in quake is any less build on habits, what makes you think so?
what exactly do you mean when you say knowledge btw? im not sure im following.

Knowledge on what makes more damage in a fight, what makes more of a difference, what skills/spells allow you to escape what situations etc. In Quake, your damage output and everything else depends so much on how good you do in a specific situation that you can't develop habits that overrule skill in a fight, you just try to do your best and that's it, whereas in dota you try to do what's "correct". Get my point?

i dont see how you can say that dota needs fewer skills to perfect. teamplay is unbelivably complex and so far every big event has shown us new things. but i dont want to make the same mistake, you cant compare quake duel to dota2. there is no equivalent to what quake demands from the player, but there is also no equivalent to what dota demands from the player, hero combinations (both in picking and playing) etc just dont translate into anything quakeish

.

Yes, teamplay is difficult... But it's also much more down to what is the correct play for your role/hero in a certain situation, as you can only do so much. Therefor, compared to a teamplay game that's much more about skill (again, aim, movement, prediction, skill/shot timings (which are, in the end, less important than in a shooter)) than it is about knowledge, the teamplay is more about your roles and heroes and less about what you can do with what you have, which in a shooter is much more dynamic.

So yes, the demands are different. But once you're familiar with what determines what in Dota you'll notice that it's so much more about strategy/ understanding of the metagame / executing what you can and have to do than about how well you can execute it or what reads you get during the game (these come from understanding of the metagame mostly in dota).

Since you do have 99, IIRC, heroes right now, yes, the metagame is different all the time... But does it mean that the game is evolving in terms of what players have to be able to do rather than just in terms of what tools are considered most efficient for doing so? I don't see so much proof of that, especially when most experience players and casters agree that matches are lost due to getting outdrafted or not doing what your lineup is supposed to do rather than not being able to do it.

The same way I can compare a penalty shot game and football (football is the same + more), I can compare dota with an RTS game or a teamplay shooter, and if the comparison is this obvious, I can declare which is more difficult in general terms. After all, football is more difficult than, say, bowling, isn't it?

Also comparing the importance of teamplay in games is very devious.
Ie. If you would take away movement and items from Quake you'd certainly agree that aiming (or the rest) becomes much more important.

But does it make the game harder?

If you take away possible skills, the game becomes less difficult. I mean, if one players learns 50% of the movement, 75% of the items, 90% of the aim and the other something different, both can do more than if both had, respectively, 95% and 96% of aim?

PS. Furthermore, the metagame is more varied. players can express more of their talents and it's harder to learn the skills alongside the others.

well you certainly have a poin, i just feel like you are overly harsh on dota. but we can definitely agree that quake and sc2 offer the player more ways to differentiate themselves with their play.

I feel like everybody infuelntial in esports is trying their best to call any point like this trolling :(

I used to hate CS, but it's one of the better games now by today's standards :D And I actually like dota. For a casual / semi-competitive game, it's fun. I just think if more people admitted how important the game is, we'd have more pressure put on the developers to make the "esports" games more difficult.

btw. I think HoN was even harder than dota2 and lol ;)

Since dota is so easy any of guys care to link inhouse replays or tournament replays vs above average players?

lol if you think these are skill try some good fighters

lol fighting games are easy i can do 2 frame links with 50% success rate???

but doing 2f links isn't skill???

hey man just because i cant tech throws or antiair doesnt mean im not the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btw i know it might sound funny with me being godlike and all, but how do i perform charge moves? ive no idea how to spinning bird kick :D

sf isn't the best example tbh. game always was about turtling

training dummies dont resist too much tho

mmm, i love me some turtling.

however King Of Fighters 13 is supposed to be launched on PC: http://steamdb.info/app/222940/#section_info

can't fucking wait :D unless it has shit netcode, then :<

isnt sfxt only game where netcode isnt ass? ive only played that and mvc3/umvc3 online, and only one was worth continuing

great news! kof'13 is teh shit!

PC gaming is dead for us 'mature' peeps. it's better than ever for 8+ kids.

I will like to amend my statement since I actually do play and watch SC2 and it does require similar speed of decision making as quake so does not belong to the shitty category which is LoL or DOTA.

Acceptable and commendable.

Dota is a girly game and you're a faggot for being upset about it.

I love quake too! it is potat

quake is a cool game, its very competetive and can be considered a sport ... played it again recently for 2 weeks ... but, well ...
problem is you have to invest too much time into it ...
I rather play table tennis or something two times a week 2.5 hours than having to play quake live everyday three hours to keep up and play from 10 p.m. until 4 a.m on weekends just to be considered a somewhat good player ...
and its completely anti-social you don't talk to anyone in real life, etc., bethanks to automated matchmaking you don't even have to communicate electronically to set up a game with a different person ... I played a lot of quake in my teens when I was pretty good at it ...
but I am not sure if I can do still the same thing now, I'll try playing casually, but who knows ... I respect quake a lot, I know how much skill is needed to play this game, but i just can't support anymore the amount of time you have to invest and it's also pretty much anti-social ... man I just play single player games now, you play some AAA title for 15 hours here and there and then you lay it aside and it's finished ... no more serious multiplayer gaming for me

Maybe LoL is girly, but i love this game :)

You are a girl -.-

isnt it a rule that there are no girls on the internet?

Boys are boys, girls are boys and little girls are FBI agents to be precise ;).

:D

forgot that :<

busted.

Can't understand all the hate LoL is getting.

Have been playing it for some time now with more or less competitive mindset. Around 450 games, ye it's not too much but it's probably much more than most of the self proclaimed "experts" (aka. jelly trolls) in this thread have spend in it. I must say that it requires quite some skill especially if played in a premade team vs. another team. The mechanics in some aspects are more shallow than Dota 2 and in some they have more depth. Of course you can't compare LoL to QL, but that's not because QL requires more skills, it's because the two require different skills from you.

I can only understand people bashing LoL for its visual style and its community. The gfx are somewhat childish and not everybody's thing and the community is really, really horrible (easily the most fucked up 13yo "mud-pool" I've ever seen in gaming).

Still the game is pretty addictive and fun and on a side note Riot at least made the game so much fun in its F2P version that people are happily willing to spend money in the game. QL on the other side... Well ya know it kind of forces you to spend money in order to actually enjoy it.

Wanted to write something long but it isn't needed. In the end there are several reasons why killsen decides to play lol instead of ql, main one being the game is fun to play, especially as a team. I think all pc gamers should give lol a chance, which is pretty easy to do considering it is by far the most played game in the world -including consoles- so there's always a group of friends to play with.

Like in all activities, particularly f2p games, player attitude vastly changes by skill level. I've been in literally all of them, including top 150, and I'd say it's pretty good from platinum and onwards (much better than QL. You don't see top players saying gg hitler, though it has to be said Riot plays a part on that).
In normal games to pass the 13yo barrier what you have to do is playing with friends. Easy wins, the game matches premades against premades, good fun.

Competitive-wise, people overrate the differences between dota1 and lol. Some aspects of war3/dota1 don't make it a better game or more complex, for example denying: very easy to do yet the proclaimed experts think it is rocket science and that makes it more fun, but it doesn't. There are other aspects of dota that make it objectively more complex than lol though, but it isn't leaps and bounds above it by any means (except some chars).

If I didn't have all I want in LoL I'd gladly buy $100 in RP. May do it sometime just to support the game, which is something I have never ever thought to do in QL.

edit: Had to add that LoL is the only game I have ever played in which literally no one ever stops playing. It is that addicting.

Have spend 70€ so far on LoL and never regretted it, will spend some money for QL now that I'm back aswell but dunno if it will be worth it :/. Also Platinum level is still pretty toxic I've seen Diamond players flaming like little angry 12yos as well. On the other hand there are really nice and polite Bronze players too ;). I just happen to be in Silver where most of the population seems to be completely retarded -.-...

I was in silver this season (elo decay rocks) and it is awfully toxic because the new ladder system is fucked up. I'd say current silver is the equivalent of past season's bronze.

In plat and diamond people don't ragequit or troll for real. They do in gold and downwards, all the time. The only place where they do is in plat5 and diamond5, because they can't go lower by losing and there's lots of people that don't deserve to be there: new ladder is all about keep playing until you reach a goal.

I decay'd to silver (RIOT PLS) and now I don't even want to play the game anymore. It's just a shithole..

In the name of Demacia, i will punish you! (c) Lux <3