have you ever seen ql TDM broadcast?

you just dont know whats going on, even if you have some quake knowledge. tdm would need some awesome spec options.

even if you have some quake knowledge

How would you know?

because im not you

Woah sick burn, you sure showed him there!

Put that stupid swede in his place!

not going into argument with inferior beings, as it always ends up with zerg rush of guys who hate me, because im awesome.

I'd like to witness the ra...erm, match between you two. : D

rape would be the good word here :D

IF QUAKE LIVE ESPORT WAS 2on2 TDM FOCUSED..

...it would be fucking awesome.

This!

We need more 2v2 tdm cups.

I think 2v2 TDM is boring to watch.

I love watching duels and 4v4 TDM, but I fall asleep over 2v2 TDM.

boring or not, at least it gives a better spectrum what quake IS. it is a start. i remember a q3 2v2 tournament around 2005? when in the final newschool went against oldschool. it was amazing. and there was once this revival 2v2 tournament for quake2 with old veterans.

Good old days. Yeh, i remember myself playing eurocup 2on2 in 2005. It was superb. With a lan final for top4 teams, just awesome.

noctis and zyz proved you wrong many a times :>

zyv*

I think somebody who lived the early years of Quake could answer this to you better, as at that time TDM was huge, and could have become the standard for Quake. I can only guess that the competition with counter strike, the less spectator friendliness, the higher costs of traveling, contributed to having duel being the big one.

tdm was huge when lan/prize giving organizations were still going strong
(cpl, qil, ggl, clanbase, etc)
once the incentives went away, so did the players(very quickly, i might add)
it's anyone's guess on how to make it return or if it's even possible

Not being involved in organizing lans, I'd say a good reason why 1v1 stayed that long was that it is easier to organize than 4v4/5v5 games and doesn't require as much prize money.

Also tdm requires more game knowledge to be enjoyed than duel and other team games (cs etc). That means less 'outsider' viewers.

Quake tdm is hard for spectators. Don't think viewing on a stream is fun especially for casual viewers.

The argument is that Team games are more popular than 1v1 games.

Did you ever heard about sc:bw or sc2?

LoL?

LoL isn't really watched by people who don't play it.. and when you have a kazillion players it's not hard to get some decent streaming numbers ;)

Well, flies always swarming a new dose of fresh shit.

Yeah, though SC2 is. I know quite a few people that enjoy watching it yet don't touch the game.

Certainly. I watch SC2 and have never played it :)

if you have 40 german tdm teams like we had in the early days, you do not think about spectator friendliness. you have gtv :D

Duel is better to spectate simply because you need fewer features in order to allow the viewers to understand the game. TDM could be great as a spectator mode if there were additional features in order to make the game more colourful to the given audience

CTF > *

No, just no!

to spectate, I think that's the best mode, yeah

constant action, clear goal, def/mid/att just like football, it's got it all really

tdm is more subtle and you don't know what's happening on the other side of the map so except a few attacks on power ups, I think the whole teamwork aspect is a bit lost on the spectator if he doesn't play that mode himself

you need excellent casters (lvluptv) and probably (as it's been said before) a spec hud with more informations

it's by far the most boring thing to watch as a viewer.

no, you're wrong and I'm right

your turn

the action is centered around making 2-4 key points in the span of 30+ minutes with the rest of the game being meaningless fluff.

go look at how well tribes ascend worked out.

the action is centered around making 2-4 key points in the span of 30+ minutes with the rest of the game being meaningless fluff.

That's a better ratio than football has? And still, football is insanely popular.

Maybe one crucial point is that when someone is always holding the ball, every spectator knows who to watch in football, or handball, or basketball. With quake (be it 1v1, CTF or TDM) it's not always obvious who to watch:

Is it the guy with the large stack or the one having to make a comeback happen in 1v1?
Is it the player getting RA and preparing for PU or the player attacking the enemies' territory in TDM?
Is it the player preparing for PU or the player sneaking into enemy base in CTF?

At least in this respect, the only advantage of CTF is, that there a some moments where it appears pretty obvious who you should follow: when (exactly) one team has the enemy flag, it's a good idea to watch the flagcarrier. Then again, with only one PU on a TDM map, it's also pretty obvious that we should watch the PU-carrier -- with the caveat that some people might prefer to watch how their favorite player is able to avoid/frag the PU-carrier.

and if soccer were to be spectated in first person no one would watch it either

quake cant be watched in some retard helicopter view because it isn't relatable


it's actually kind of amazing that you people come up with these solutions to fix quake viewership. totally detached from reality

Why so aggressive? None of this was intended as any kind of "solution to fix quake viewership".

While your point is correct, I would argue that even IF it was fun to watch quake from a 'helicopter view', we still wouldn't know which player to watch because in quake (1v1, tdm, and ctf), there is no obvious focus of attention like in real-world ball sports.

sry my PASSION for esports got out of hand

I think what would help is just to have MVD, and a control function on streams so that viewers can choose which player's POV to watch. Would be pretty hard to implement into streams though :}

fuck streams, give us gtv :(

wow someone's seriously upset that he's shit at ctf. stop venting your frustration please, this thread ain't to blame.

I don't care much if you want to be delusional. The fact is that ctf is uninteresting for MOST people

also you're likely terrible at quake so why do I bother

I beg to differ.

I agree. I love watching CTF, it really is like a football match.

There's a difference: I hate football.
Well, "hate" is not a good word. It would be more precise, if you'd say that there are very few things in the world which I'm less interested in.

Gonna turn into another "my mode is better" thread.

already did

That comment is so much winz.

Thanks, I guess!

We've tried proposing features to make TDM easy to follow, the HUGE post is here: http://www.esreality.com/post/2390219/improve...y-project/

It's obvious that team modes are the future (or umm... was the future 13 years ago, now it's the current state of FPS games). Not because it's easier to follow on stream, but because it's enjoyable to play at any skill level and because people don't rage as they would in a duel.

They rage at their teammates instead.

Yes, that's one psychological cushion that you have - you can always calm yourself down by "explaining" to yourself: "that was bad, but my team could have done better".

But there are more qualities of a team game that make it more enjoyable, that includes opportunity to get carried of course, but also opponents being mortal. In a duel, if you're bad and impatient out of control, you probably won't get a single frag. In TDM or CTF - you will get bad net, but at least get some kills and maybe an assist here and there. I really like that.

To be fair, I almost never raged playing in team, but rage quite a lot dueling.

it all depends if you do feel that your team is doing their very best or not.

You got some luck then. I end up with the idiots 70 % of the time in pickups.

hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha

here's the prime example what duel-only does to you

i play duel only because after 5-6[?] years of ET im really tired of team modes. You can play perfect game, and still lose because your teamm8s will fuck up. Ofc, shit happens, its not big deal, but it is annoying. I prefer to rage @ myself, than my friends.

Ask maza, afaik he's got similar feelings. And he didnt play so much 6v6 as me.

this demonstrate the thesis that 4v4 and teamplay is superior :>

if ur not trolling, please explain

i forgot that ET uses stopwatch, is time sensitive, so one player can fail hard. i take it back in your case.

No man FFA is the way to go. You don't have to be a quake fan to appreciate the skill it takes to aim like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rx4zY8sFHc

ffa was the main game in netquake before threewave ctf showed up.
it had it's time and people have moved on.

i remember these qualifications :D a guy named canon fodder suicided all the time in the lava on dm12, he filled probably one free slot. in one year a pro had problems at the begining to do frags, cant remember the name, but he got it. it was all fun to watch.

ra3 with weapons or powerups and smaller maps

see gears of war execution mode

that would be so boring to watch

yeah, so boring..
that's why gears 2 at mlg had the loudest/most pumped crowds back then.

Look at the average gears gamer. It's a cognitive challenge for those ppl to just form words. So they yell and moan. :-)

SC2, CoD and CS have a loud crowd.

Gears had no hype at mlg. mlg gave them 2 benches to sit on. only like 30 ppl watched the event. i think ur confusing the gears crowd with the halo crowd

back in the good ole days of OSP TDM it helped to have Quake knowledge but GTV was the reason it worked. You could spec the players u wanted to spec etc...and watch Quad/Powerup Setups...

Some of the best times were QIL days with clan kapitol - darkside - abuse - stickmen - 519

Wansanity was the best and most fun tourney I played in and spectated and I pretty much hate cpma tdm


Now you get horrible casters/streamers that spec the worst times possible and switch too much

TDM was much bigger back in the day as people were playing for fun and enjoyed going to LANs etc.. for fun! now everyone needs cash insentives or want sponsorship.

Yeah coz that's why most people play MMO / MOBA games, so much cash there for them, especially in WoW.

wow good comparison

someone said the same
http://www.esreality.com/post/2415233/re-if-q...pid2415102

it was easy for cpl/esl to take fastfood duel for their own motivation. the main playerbase had no voice in it. orgas took a trend, isolated and milked it. it seems the tiny comp scene liked the hype and that artifical enviroment, until it was over.

esl is talking all the time about moneymaking, viewer numbers and the next game they can abuse. as a player i have nothing to do with that and i have the feeling this trashtalk influenced quite some players here. streamwatch numbers... a game should be played, to be fun!

did the "duel strategy", a surface attraction, work to get more players? besides promoting duel will only produce lone wolfs. as a whole scene we should focus on real things. building teams, teach new players.

I feel like players always have the power. if majority wanted tdm or ctf, cpl/iem wouldve seen this and taken that over duel. cs is 5v5, which meant it wouldve been harder to set up than quake. if the scene was there, tdm wouldve bee picked up. the main problem is quake has so many modes and each one has its particular community. cs main mode was 5v5, the dm matches were just a mini game. also ca is thr most popular mode for quake live, maybe thats the mode the orgs shouldve picked up. looking at mobas imagine if majority of the players didnt play the traditional 5v5 and it was more evenly distributed between 1v1 3v3 2v2 domination, moba ctf ect ect. their scenes would be much smaller since orgs wouldnt have that main game mode the majority played. but then i look at sc2 and its esport basically 1v1 but that 1v1 mode is the most popular. blizzard made it work by having a good system to teach players to learn rts. im typin on phone so that y no paragraph sorry

no, the players obviously didn't have a say in what the cpl or the iem decided. what makes you think that? :(

both are (were) for-profit organizations that went the duel way in a desperate attempt to make money. the change duel might have been due to the close connection of the cpl founder (angel munoz) with their posterboy (fatality) and the fact that euro teams dominated the tdm scene at the time... but that can only be a guess, of course :p

speaking of the majority the scene did so much wrong. the mod wars, voting to change quake4 into quake3, flaming tiny mods for low tier players.

>also ca is thr most popular mode for quake live, maybe thats the mode the orgs shouldve picked up.
i say it diplomaticly, CA is a funmode. an easier rocket arena 3. very popular at the end of q3, when tdm and ctf servers were empty.

>blizzard made it work
quake players are new to this concept, that id forcing things with quakelive. in the past we did it ourself, mods maps servers. but to be fair, some mod chiefs have strange egos, dont want to hear the community. so mods are not in all cases the answere :>

I think Quake would have a larger community and we would have solved some of the broadcasting issues we have with team games.

Would it have more viewers? Hard to tell. Duel is easier to watch for a new player and is focused around the star names. Perhaps if TDM had kept being pushed and ended up fighting off CS it would have a large audience.

As pointed out above though, like what you like and watch what you want to watch. All this supporting esports doesn't help quake or duel or TDM. Supporting Quake and your mode/s of choice helps Quake.

We should keep focused on our own scene and not worry about the viewing figures of these other totally unrelated games. Quake has been broadcast for over a decade, some of these new games still have a lot to prove.

well said.

maybe we could refresh team games with tweaks. make it a bit more easy. other weapon damage, less timelimit, even limit weapons to players (rofl). slower gamespeed against rushes. some fun things like 2 battlesuits. quad can be took after dead. of course not totaly perferted like cod. i learned fps is all about tweaking and numbers.

quake is gloriously alien. both a blessing and a curse.

Quake as far as teamplay is concerned, CTF is your go-to guy.

i almost forgot, in team games you see more weak weapons.

I 100% prefer somebody to win based on their skill and own merit rather than a crutch team.

So for me duel is the ultimate competition, i dont mind watching some tdm now and then tho, and its always fun to watch when they mash teams together for an exhibition at the duel tournaments.

The best spectator experience I had in video games was during the Q3 OSP CTF golden era with clans like 32nd, aAa, Gunzoids, c9 etc.

The eurocups, the nations cup and the big american/european rivalry of the quakecon gave the most excitement.

Each team had its special tactics and there were many interesting "characters" among the players. Also with a lot of drama between them all.

In game, they all had their own strength and their team had to articulate their tactics around those strengths. I remember that player, Forever was his nickname I think, who couldn't aim at all but had the best moves and so his whole team had to "cover" for him until he could grab the flag and work his magic.
Or the french player "Raoul" who moved like a brick but didn't miss a rail. His team would just place him at the middle and ask him to "do his thing" :)

It was very entertaining and you could easily identify with the players. Wonder yourself which position on the field would suit you the best etc.

And that is coming from a Q2TDM player who barely played anything else ever.

My brothers who never played any FPS didn't care for my Q2TDM stories. But I could always tell them about a Q3CTF match I wanted to watch and they were interested.