http://dankapadia.com/2013/06/19/quakelive-pl...s-heights/

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My brain is hurting from hearing your voice at 3am because it keep convincing me it's Sunday :L

Some pretty clever analysis, will finish the rest tomorrow.
Great job, I bet this will help a lot of players in search for improvement.

Thanks, I fixed it!

Will have a watch and shall give feedback.

Thanks, scholar of Quake Live

http://www.q3schools.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/q3schools/videos?...amp;view=0

Good job DDK - enjoyed it, learned from it and look forward to the next one.

progressed through the game at such a low speed, couldnt get passed 1:15 gametime :/

Yep, I know that's an issue :D. It's the first one so I'll try to do my best in the future to makes things more concise and increase depth.

i think realising your target audience will help you will that. most people here understand what advantages high-ground gives, and doesnt need to hear a monologue about that =)

Great stuff!

For me it's the best answer to those who complain about Quake casters' work (FaceIt, 125 FPS guys) and lack of insights. During match there's usually not so much time to do in-depth stuff and IMO such videos are pretty good alternative. I can pause them, go back when I miss something and so on.

Though, I have two remarks, first: please try to avoid pausing game when player's lg is firing, I know in some situations it's not easy, but for example about 2:20 you could have paused the game a second-two earlier so there would be no buzz sound; second: is it possible to see the item timers in those vids? They kind of unnecessary because you actually talk about when items spawn, but I prefer to see them when watching games.

Oh, and about what we want to see in next ones. I'd love to see the analysis of most of the options that one player has in the exact moment. I'm fairly new in watching Quake and learning more about decision making would make next games more exciting for me. Also, I will have the tools to convince my friends how Quake really is about being smart :D

Yeah I agree about the LG buzz/rail hum/general annoying sounds during the pause. One solution is I could bind a button to mute the game which would be smart! I was definitely trying to avoid it but sometimes it's difficult indeed.

About the items clock, I'll go add it! ZeRoQL has been helping me with the wolfcam and general production based stuff and he just told me it's easy to do so expect that for the next video. It's nice for me as well because I had to actually try and time the items whilst doing this video myself and it was a tiny bit distracting at times ;D.

Appreciate the constructive feedback, I'll keep trying to improve it step by step as I move forwards with more.

Regarding sounds when paused, you could use "+mouseseek" to rewind to just before a fight by moving the mouse left when paused and holding the bind down (I think default is shift?). This way you could also show the whole fight after you are done talking about the current situation so we can see the outcome without a pause in the middle of it. I think that would be nice, at least when you have talked for a while when paused. Also useful if you want to point something specific out by replaying it. Try it out and choose what you prefer :)

Anyway, I liked it and will continue to watch these vids, so keep them coming!

You could use a script to pause and mute the sound at the same time:

itemtimers next time mby? :)
Nice vid nontheless.

Will do!

how much of these actions are really so deeply thought out by the players? how much of what you think are superbly calculated actions are really just habits and styles that just create various rock/paper/scissors situations?

maybe i'm just naive in my understanding of quake, but i thought a lot of the game was eliminating the necessity for thought by playing so much that thinking about a lot of the game is unnecessary.

or maybe they've eliminated the necessity for a lot of thought and it just gives them the time to think about and make the plays you pointed out in the video?

also, could you please arrange a show match with zhu vs. somebody?

No one wants to or cares to see zhu play.

Btw, hi zhu!

i'm not zhu, but i think the guy is funny and is an unconventional personality. quake is a fun game, it's not just limited to hardcore(r) pro(tm) matches. just because there are stats and profiles now doesn't mean that the game should lose its lighthearted side. it would probably be a fun and entertaining show match to watch.

He's not funny he is sick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58

I think that movie might be an answer to your question.

rapha's explanations are very simple and concise. his analysis supports the idea that successful players aren't crafting complex strategies and thoughts during play, but rather have good knowledge of the fundamentals, such as movement, aim, weapon selection, positioning, and demeanor, and through that knowledge of the fundamentals can execute simple and efficient strategies based on few variables.

developing skill is about eliminating variables. it's about developing constants. this frees the person to dedicate more energy toward managing the very few aspects of quake that truly matter.

so:

the players in a match have moments to analyze a few variables so that they can make decisions.

in a live stream, the commentators have the similar time, but the probability of the commentators seeing the same variables as the players in game is itself variable. for instance, a player experiences the pressure of the match, has a subjective awareness, and a particular level of knowledge and experience. these attributes will differ between players, and also between players and commentators.

in a non-live analysis setting, such as this video, the commentator has much more time to explain the decisions made. i guess what i'm really wondering is: has ddk accurately explained the match, or has he convoluted the decisions made due to having more time to invent more intricate concepts?

obviously at some times in the demo he has put forth very simple and elegant explanations for the players' decisions, but i think there is a tendency to do the opposite.

so i will say that i believe much of quake is the opposite of what commentators believe. it is less the brilliant in-game strategies resulting in high-skill play, but more the conflicts generated by and the outcomes determined by placing two players with experience and skillsets into an arena to collect resources. it's a very simple game. get the resources, kill the other guy.

i guess that what i'm basically saying is that if you have to pause the video to explain something, it's not likely that the player in game is going to have time or convenience to think it in real time.

This point is invalid imo.

Speed of tought is 915647365916779146353057042375934 times faster than talking.
You can conceive a whole concept in one single moment just by experience and other stuff.

Example:

Pro's tought process:
Situation A is happening.

Explanation of that situation to a newcomer:
RA was just taken, both major items are nearly synced.
He can give away a frag to make damages within the next 10 seconds or, after those, He must not die the following 10, then try to place himself inbetween the items and delay the opponent at the first item to grab the otherone.
And i'm overlooking what kind of routes, hiding places (implying great knowledge of the map) and tactics one could use do to it, whilist that player doesn't elaborate it because it's automatic by experience, instict and feel for the game, a complete explanation could go on for a while.

yeah, i agree. i thought it was clever rhetoric at the time, but oh well. :)

Pretty much agree with you. You can rationalize your decisions post game while being able to make them in-game based solely on experience for the most part. Obviously odd situations come around where you have to have a conscious thought to make a decision but most of the time it's just like a dance, attacking or defending based on who has the control. I've seen people comparing quake to chess here(and not just once mind you) which is just... lets be kind - wishful thinking.

anyway register mby? Dump feget.

So what you're saying is that because DDK is reviewing a demo and has time to explain in some detail what is going on that means the players couldnt possibly have gone through the same thought process in a half second?

For those saying it doesnt go this in-depth i believe you're wrong. I dont believe many players are this thoughtful, infact only a few are - the few at the very top. There are plenty of really good players who can match the top guys in aim but when the game goes live its easy to see they dont have the same in-depth thought process as the pros.

If you still dont believe me just look up fraze's in-game commentating while playing, just as indepth if not more than what DDK is doing, while playing a live match.

DDK should point rapha to this thread when he's at the studio, no sense in guessing when he can just answer himself.

i think rapha would probably fall asleep in the middle of my post. :)

great vid

Great stuff, really useful!

I'd like to see more from the POV of a players who's out of control - how to recover/regain control/get back into the game and associated thought processes.

And also from the POV of a player playing against an opponent who rails really well - I guess this is similar to being out of control, cos ur playing always low on hp/armour

Do some Aerowalk-game where someone gets the shitty YA-spawn but isn't completely steamrolled!

:/
1) sit between ya and ga
2) if he aims at ya take ga. if he aims at ga take ya.
3) if he comes from low, go up and circle the map. if he comes from high, go low and circle the map aka take pos on red.
4) 2x(GA+YA) 100 150 stack.

Edit: fu qwih

2x(GA+YA), nobo.

this video was superb, please don't ruin the next one with item timers: i mean, most of the people who watch these videos are trying to improve their game, adding timers doesn't help in the long run.(it just helps when you pause)
however, if you're really determined to implement those, please make them small and hard to read (like in the russian stream, in a corner of the screen with a small font and no icons).

I disagree. If you want to make theoretically correct analysis you need to take item order into account. Itemtimers make it easier to follow and keep track when the game gets paused all the time and other stuff is in the focus.

i get your point and would agree if i wasn't skeptical about the interpretation of "technically correct analysis": for example,how is the player whose pov is shown supposed to know a YA was picked on the other side of the map at xx:37 five seconds after MH and, most importantly, react in a "theoretically correct" way?

what if MH was delayed?
what if the enemy was ignoring that area of the map to land a trap/rail?
you see, as far as my laughable duel knowledge tells me, the only way to do that would be to either spot, hear or have a rough idea where the enemy is and make assumptions about both his past and future routes; prediction playing such a big role, i have difficulties accepting the concept of a technically better analysis (especially when showing only one player's pov).
that's why ive personally found rapha's insights of his dm6 game vs cooller so invaluable, estimating pickups times based on the enemy's routes (and many many others).
then again, ddk and you being good duellers , i guess you both might give this for granted, old known entry-level stuff so to speak ; glad we at least agree on the need for timers during pauses

That was really excellent ddk. Unlike most of esr I thought the pace was fine, and I learnt a lot. Can't wait for more!

[+]'d for awesome

More. More. More.

man gief a demo of the game or a link to video, just the game. promise to watch ur cast after, taking notes

I watched it again with more focus and spent some time on it.
I think you analyzed very well pretty much every time, in particular the positional play of this guys... (here coms the massive but) ...

BUT!

But you made some mistakes on the items, they kept adding up and eventually made you overlook tox's stack on the crucial stage of the game.

As you pointed out perfectly, that MH bait from Evil was what decided the game and was a world class move by Evil.
But you missed that Tox just stole the previous two Reds and took 2YAs too!

You also missed that both YAs were synced pretty much all the game so lost track of some Tox's pick ups.

It's easy to lose track of some items while pausing, analyzing and talking about everything.

So, here's what i think in various situations. I bolded where you missed Tox's RAs steals!

Edit: also underlined where you start losing track of one of the yellow evenif they are pretty much synced.


Edited 100 times to polish this thing a little.

Keep this up because it's so much fun!

Dude, you got too much free time. :>

...

accurate, insightful and well I kinda started picking up on ddk missing some details when occasionally he was surprised by one player's weap appearance or route change. You filled in those details crazy good to make a little more sense of the players' actions. And yes, a high-gloss polish you put on :)

DDK how about a video "HOW TO GAIN MUSCLES in 5 minutes per day" ?

ask hitsu

So...when is the next one? The Jellington demands more!

Will make number two today!! I've been lazy, my bad!

Sweet, thanks!

Ep #3 up! Rapha vs Evil on Hektik

Enjoy

Shit, I was looking for a new post. Hadn't seen that you were adding them here.

Don't you think you'd get more response if you created a new journal for each episode? =)

Perhaps yes, but it's kinda spammy :) I don't think it would be appreciated. But I would like a newspost or some kinda sticky as I intend to make one every day. (Although this weelend I may not be able).

To be honest, I wouldn't mind being spammed every day with content. This site has so many ridiculous forum posts each day, but great content can never take up too much space. :)

this

yes.

After watching these vods my elo kept dropping slower than usually. RESULT!

Because you didn't play as much? :>

maybe :D

Just watched the first one, very enlightening, thanks.

Nice, good job!

ep 4 + 5 are up, lil rushed but I hope they are enjoyable all the same!

edit: thanks cobba for the pausing script, worked like a charm!

Just watched the second one. Thanks a lot for this.

bump! ep 6 + 7 are up, links in the OP!

aerowalk pls. Lots of them.

I suck on it and find it unintuitive, both for total noobs and for a bit more experienced people:
1.- Noobs don't know how the spawn system works, therefore they don't favor staying on the stronger side of the map. Then there's the angles, trying to do free damage, sound queues and in general knowing the rules of the map.
2.- For more experienced people, there are some positions that are golden but there's no good aerowalk guide. For example a common mistake is killing someone while being at YA then go for the green armor (uhm candy), whereas the rule of thumb is going to the SG tele exit for spawn damage (angle to RL GA, rail, right in front. 3/4 all very easy to hit). That alone makes a huge difference in control and is counterintuitive.

will do, next ep will be aerowalk- your wish is my command!

I wish to see you naked.

Accidents happen... naked accidents.

Should such an accident befall me- what's in it for me? I like to think mmyself a man of business.

Topless cast this Sunday, it's hot as hell in Milan so might as well use that as an excuse!

From business point of view : 13.000 viewers tuning in to see your glorious chest hair.

fagget

I wanted to see some dm6 analysis aswell, but ofc an interesting matchup in which control is switched over, even with a final result being a win to the player who had the worse starting spawn/spent minutes out of control but managed to come back. I always find it so hard to win a dm6 game when I don't spawn near lg, I wish you would give some insight, I'm surely not the only one who wishes for a campgrounds episode. :P

I'll try to find something.

Dude????? Gief more mby???
And maybe without even timers was better, you take too much infos fro granted rite nao. I'd mix it up a bit mby?

Edit: what i mean is that it might be fun to have more player-like analysis and others more complete-ones like this ones. I think casting without timing also helps you improving as a caster :D

Also watched ep 7. Very nice work by you, i mean it.
Evil on ZTN = €€€€€€€€, fuck you "all lg nobo" retards.

Analysis tip: Sometimes i'd focus on how many informations the players have. For example: does Cypher know the Mega timing ? Does Evil knows Cypher doesn't have the mega timing? Can Evil take risks knowing Cypher doesn't have that info? Should Evil delay the mega to deny that info? If you add this to your analysis it'd be really close to perfection.

And i showed the game to some friends of mine as you asked, they moked you all the time and made fun of you taking the game so seriously (dude you ask for this :D)

casuals will casual

Been watching some of your CPM videos without even realizing it through the youtube recommendations.

Top stuff brah!

bump :PPP

<3 I missed it

Do some fast maps too

awww i want MOREEE ;P

try to analyze some porn as well. I suggest eva vs selen

qw tdm finals duder

Yep I wanted to do that yesterday but stupidly don't have my setup from home, cfg/all the files. I want to get it done badly so I'll get some help to have a good looking compromise.

Game is imo too loud on Furious Heights. As proud ELO 1000 player - thanks for videos.

No problem, will try and fix it :)

Working on the config! Think I have something.

want this?

very first cypher's shot: it stops momentum, if he doesn't hit that he's probably dead.
1:10 or so stealing mega isn't a big dead if he recieves 100ish damage
1:40 or so: cypher's goes to the lg jumppad because he's still lacking an LG
1:45 Mega and Red afterwards: Evil is severely outstacked, so that red pickup is very important stackwise.. The third\fourth mega is always one of the most important moments of the game as it's the first time mega and red clash, so it can be a very quick way in if you got a bad start

Shit, havent seen this thread since lesson #2 and theres already 6 more? Nice! Thanks.

2 new vids up, ep 9 and 10!

u know u wanna pick mine for the community one

I watched 10 because I hoped that you would say something about how to analyse.....
But you kinda don't..... which annoys me so I wrote a post about your mistakes rather than about that I like you making these things ;)

You just analyse a single possition (or 3 if we're generous) for the viewer. However in total the analyses is not much there other than
1) taking a fight when the opponent can't dodge is in general a good thing
2) being able to get out of a fight by having an easier exit than the opponent is generally a good thing.

I know that nowadays quake has been dumbed down to insane levels but it's not this easy just yet. (= me being anoyed at how much influence the +forward lg has online).

Also comming down the stairs with lg on ztn used to be game over because the rockets are so easy to hit.... not sure why you say it's a huge advantage for the lg because it isn't (ok ok... online it's rediculous). If, on lan, you dodge towards the nmy who comes down the stairs as soon as you are in range of his lg... chances are pretty high you'll deal more dmg with rl than the lg guy. Ofcourse you do need to get through the initial bit of dmg (say 40 - 60 dmg and then he can't track you anymore as he'll be flying everywhere ;p)

Also the idea that there is "height advantage" is in general not true. The only weapons which are heavily hight dependant are the projectile weapons as for RL and plasma it's pretty impossible to fight from a low possition. The RL also has a nice bonus for fighting an opponent who is below you.

In general as long as the ledge is at an angle of less than 45degrees the player on the bottom is actually at an advantage as the pushback from the lg lifts the player up slightly on impact reducing his ability to dodge. The fight from nade platform -> sg is around 30degrees I think. The reason why the shards fight works is because the opponent is close enough for the RL to be more dominant than any other weapon and if he uses lg / rail you can hear him around the corner so you have another advantage there.

If the angle becomes larger then you can actually (often) start to limit the opponents movement with rockets.
The exact tradeoff between distance and angle is ofcourse hard to estimate. For instance if the opponent is down at the rail and you're at sg (on ztn) then he has the advantage in a rail battle and if you do rl vs his rail then that should pay off if you can take more than 2 rails (you might take the first rail but limit his movement with rockets which allows you to drop down he rails you as you drop down and then it's about if he can hit more or not).
Meanwhile on the bridge on dm6 the angle from bridge -> ra is about the same as sg -> rail but the distance is shorter meaning that RL gets more powerfull.

Obviously what I wrote in this post is just a small part of what quake is.... but it's enough to show you that your examples only work in those situations and don't actually teach anything about analysing stuff yourself.

First of all thanks for the criticism, it is through the rigorous test of challenge and debate that you can better your theory.


I'm quite open to the possibility, I suspect in fact, that I didn't deliver my side of things well, but first of all I'll try to simply describe the point of this video:

I wanted to show people how I break things down, how value can be assigned to then create estimations within a context to be able to come to a conclusion of whether a play was good or not. My aim was not to do specific analysis of certain spots, I merely used a couple spots as mere examples of the approach in action, albeit crudely. The simple start of how positioning effects damage output for both players and how that changes the impact of stack sizes, better enabling one to decide whether a fight was good or not. It is simplistic, but it's a good starting point in my opinion.

"Also the idea that there is "height advantage" is in general not true. The only weapons which are heavily hight dependant are the projectile weapons as for RL and plasma it's pretty impossible to fight from a low possition. The RL also has a nice bonus for fighting an opponent who is below you."

I would argue that there is definitely a tangible height advantage for rail as well, because of the ability to show yourself only for the shot before disappearing behind the edge again. I would say this principle applies in general, as it allows you with all weapons better control on the damage you take. I think the push back from a weapon like LG can be negligible in the cases that are more "level" based, instead of the smaller angles you describe.

My conclusion from your post is that I didn't accurately convey the information in a manner suitable to my aims, so, cheers. =)


edit: are there others that feel this wasn't helpful at all? Be honest as I make the content for youuuu!

Yo ddk :)

nice of you not to freak out at some criticism.
First of all I don't think that the vids are "not helpful at all". I just don't think that people learn how to deduce things themselves as a result.
Which was what I would expect from the title.


The thing is that everything is on this "value attribution" (I'll get back to this further on in the post) and that everything scales in usefulness depending on very slight things.
So what you kinda do in this vid is that, given a limited situation, you explain a bit about which fights are good to take.
This is not a useless thing to do.

To actually make a video about "how to analyse" is insanely hard (I wouldn't really know how to do it) which is why I watched it (I was curious).

------------
About the "height advantage" if you want to argue about rail / lg on angles.

First off you should know (something most people don't realize) that your camera is not in the head of your own model. So in order to "peek over the ledge" the other guy actually sees you first. Just draw the situation with lines comming from the front+middle of the model to the head ot the other model... should be clear.

Secondly hitboxes in old q3/ql days with the rectangular hitboxes you would obtain a much larger area where you could hit the opponent. The guy on top can hit the front/side + top of the nmy. The guy at bot can only hit the front/side. This is ofcourse still an advantage in ql but they altered the hitboxes such that the top is smaller while the front/side are not affected as much. (aka in q3 / early ql this advantage was more substancial and people still think this holds in ql because it used to)

Thirdly dodging. Both players can ofcourse move and the guy on top is in control of when he shows himself (advantage top). However where he shows himself must be "on the ledge" so he can only peek over at a limited space. Meanwhile the guy on bot can also move forward / backwards (advantage bot). So if you're on bottom you actually have a really good chance of having your aim very close to the nmy model and you only have to move it left/right. While the guy on top must alter his aim on forward / backwards as well.
Also you can usualy hear the rail fairly well on left/right but it's impossible to hear it in forward / back. So it's fairly easy to predict (while at bot) where the top guy will show himself.

I guess the main advantage you think of is that the guy on top is in control of dodging away as soon as he took the shot. So he's in control of how much risk he takes. But in general aiming + fireing a rail goes too fast to really dodge..... Maybe you could "predodge" on top. Aka show yourself only partially and then hit back hoping that the guy on bot fires and misses -> come back to the fight and have an easy shot.
But in general the shot itself is easier for the person on bot than it is on top.

(btw I intentionally left out the differences due to netcode differences because I don't want people to flame about that. But in q3-osp online netcode controling the exposure time was a bigger advantage than it was in cpma/ql.)
-------

The "value attribution" is really difficult. For instance there is value in picking up a red armor.
But when you're 30 / 0 this attribution is a shitload higher than when you're 25 / 0 and when you're 100 / 170 there is hardly any value in picking up red.
There is also value in having your opponent not know where you are. But this value also is a lot higher when you have armor and hp then when you don't.
There's also value in having weapons that your opponent does not, but it's quite useless if you get caught in that situation where your weapons don't work well.
There can also be a lot of value in having a certain possition. Which you explained a bit in the vid.

But in order to analyse you should do this continuously.....

One of the more recent things in quake (say from early ql and up....) is the "taking risks when things won't spawn for a while". (This is mainly due to the increase in overall speed, because you can move faster off of the spawn you can harass the nmy again before anything spawns).

I personally break everything down in risk and possible rewards.
A lot of those assesments are done to (in order of importance):
1) my location
2) nmy location
3) nmy stack (health > armor > weapons)
4) my stack (health > armor > weapons)
5) item times
6) where the nmy thinks I am at
7) what stack my nmy thinks I have

If I don't know one of them then the risk factors increase. And the more accurately I know something the risk factors decrease.

Obviously sometimes I "make a mistake" and I think that I know that my opponent is at a location where he's not actually at. And I do a move which I think has low risk ;)
But sometimes I am insanely sure (and right) of the above points and I pull off some magical "wtf just happened" moment :D

Finding the right ballance in that and mixing things up / confusing the nmy etc.
That is the core of quake. At least the quake I enjoy...... It's going more and more towards your view though which is why I don't enjoy it as much anymore :/

edit: the "my location and nmy location" both also include how much space there is to dodge and things similar to that. But mainly how fast they can get to which item etc.

Good point about the head thing. Surprised more people don't realise this - perhaps becuase the last game I played was BF3 which had this "feature" heavily abuseable it made me think about it more when coming back ot ql.

I have not seen this done but you could work out where your head is not "poking out" while crouched, release crouch, shoot then recrouch.

This way you are not "pokng" your head (but not camera) over the edge until you are ready to shoot.

Would not be too hard as there are only a handful of spots this is useful in - at the same time it might not be worth bothering with because of the limited range of applications.

Some nice insights, thanks ;)

Also the idea that there is "height advantage" is in general not true. The only weapons which are heavily hight dependant are the projectile weapons as for RL and plasma it's pretty impossible to fight from a low possition

YEAH RIGHT. Maybe that's the reason why your aim sucks balls? lging someone from below is always easier no matter the angle between the two ledges. The below guy can dodge and counter his dodge better while still having quite an easy angle on him.
Rg is a similar situation. You will always have the advantage of seeing him earlier. Not to forget the nice nudgeeffect in ql which gives you another advantage from below)

Maybe you should acknowlidge the fact that not everything you know about quake is "right". But arguing with is as productive as arguing with a tree. That's besides your poor aim the reason u'll never ever were near at the "top5".

ps: will reply tomorrow haven't slept for over 30h :D

that getting sleep is a good idea!

Maybe you should've actually seen the vid and read my whole post before replying.....
I mean you basically say that I'm right in 4 different ways while saying that my aim sucks balls and that I was never skilled.

But hey I guess that disagreeing with me is just the default thing to do... even though you agree mostly with what I've written.

And I'm back with 16 hours sleep. I'm sry I just misread that completely and we both have the same view lmao. Won't delete post to remind me of my own stupidity -.-

Well funny thing is.... I can't aim like shit.... so I know every freaking detail there is about quake3, quake4 and quakelive. Including everything there is to know about aiming....

That I can't pull it off is not because I don't know the details. It's just that I've always lacked the skill.

I do have seriously sick dodging skills.... but they can't be done even remotely efficient online.

I do have seriously sick dodging skills.... but they can't be done even remotely efficient online.

I disagree. There are a few guys with sick dodging which makes my lg look weak compared to standard dodge QQ. They don't warp and have standard ping tho :P.

well they just have a certain pattern they follow. Or they have several patterns which they alternate.
To actually see how your opponent aims and react to that is impossible.... it's too far behind you in time to accurately judge what he did and when it started etc.

Well I doubt you can react dodge propberly in duel anyway as dodge depends a lot on enemy (sens, aim), your own ability to aim, and surroundings of your momentary position. Imo with 250fps it is even possible to dodge enemies lg beam but I don't do that as that just confuses me :D.

I do have to agree tho that ql netcode is quite bad. It's bullshit that the game plays out different vs a 15ms and 60ms pinger in regards to dodge/aim/hit detection. I used to think you were a complete moron when I first read your posts but now I don't. You still exaggerate a bit but it is true that certain pings with settings give you advantages/disadvantages. And imo it shouldn't be possible that I hit less on a 55ms guy with 63 maxpackets even tho I'm on the fucking model and should have a lock on. Another problem is/are nudgerails (or interprails for cs guys :D). Like you don't even have to try to dodge a 50ms rail as it will hit you anyway even tho you are already 500m behind the wall. Everytime I try to play a serious duel vs an equivalent/stronger dueler and I die to bullshit like that (I know I can avoid it by not even trying to do a railfight but we) I just feel like why did I even try ((. Btw. I'm an expert in hitting those rails :D.
The game shouldn't punish you for your opponents connection or lets say not punish but having a different feeling/approach as how to aim. And I have the worst connection on earth so I'd suffer the most from it before someone wants to point the finger at me :{. Bit off topioc but I felt like it.

Well unfortunately you're about 3 years late for ID to fix that.....

This line "The game shouldn't punish you for your opponents connection" I've used SO many times in discussing the netcode..... The game shouldn't change due to your opponents ping.
Preferibly it shouldn't change at all.... but to make it dependant on something which you can't control and which is different from game to game = horrible.
It's much better to make it dependant on something which is (fairly) constant and under your own control.


Also a LOT of people don't actually see how far the other guy is missing them.
Like you say with the getting hit behind the wall.... his other rails are equally far behind you. But your mind plays tricks on you and it seems as though they hit.....

Because I've learned quake through a lot of FFA and TDM.
In TDM / FFA knowing what the opponents are doing is more important than what you're doing yourself.
I actually pride myself in being able to analyse what I see on my screen. Like if I see 2 people fighting then according to rotation, movement, mouse-speed and weapon selection (of those players) I can tell how much hp which player has and how soon one of them will die etc. And even how confident a player is in winning the fight.
My main skill is that I can tell what's going on better than anyone out there. (Maybe with the exception of rapha/fox in duel and deus/fox in tdm)

But in quakelive.......... what's on your screen is too inconsistent due to the netcode. So in many games (and I mean a LOT) my analytical skill tells me that what just happened was miss-drawn on my screen. And that shit just drove me mad :D


I do now know that I oversimplified stuff a bit because I was angry.... Because I said that people on high ping have an overall advantage...
While actually what happens is that whenever the overall pings are high +forward lg becomes extremely overpowered. And people who have a high ping can only play +forward lg because the RL becomes useless on high ping.
Therefor the high ping player will play +forward lg...... and because that playstyle then is overpowered the low ping player must also +forward lg.....
Which I refused to do and will remain to refuse to do. Because I don't like that the game changes due to the pings (according to the netcode).

btw in q3 you could dodge really well.
You don't actually need 120fps to dodge lg at all because you only get sv_fps new data.
Which is 40 I think nowadays? (used to be 30)

ofcourse the drawing of what he did in that snapshot would become more accurate but in general to know where he's aiming you'd (in q3) only need to know the beginning and end point of his aim during the snapshot.
If that's on 120fps (1 frame / 8ms) or on 250 fps (1 frame / 4ms) will only give you a difference of 4ms... Which is not really noticable.

The problem in ql is the netcode though because often his lg will be drawn 1/2 your ping + 1/2 of his ping wrongfully on your screen... which often amounts to well over 50ms.

Above has its advantages as well, for example dm13 cover.

In the end the answer is the same as always has been: it depends.

Well in general you can say what factors it depends upon.

I guess that you mean the rl vs lg battles on dm13 (rl at top, lg below)? At that situation the distance is very small and the angle is really high. But when you're on the bridge near the RL then the angle is actually not that high and the distance is slightly further. Therefor RL vs LG works somewhat when you're on the bridge but it works wonders when you're on the part near the LG/YA top entrance. (less distance + higher angle).

LG vs LG should usualy be won (measuring by damage output) by the guy on bottom unless he has to go through the MH hallway in order to start the fight. As during the hallway he can't really dodge etc. (and after the hallway it's still difficult to dodge because of the drop -> lava on one side).

Thanks!!!! That was quick!

Ep 12 out! Let me nkow what you think of the new setup I've created!

diddy wtf. After first frag and mg dmg cypher has around 90-50 (he has rl during fight = he spawned there, went mh and lg took ya after the fight). So cypher has everything but a weapon to fight long distance and the stack to survive an impressive (nor the stack advantage). Diddy you often misread the starts, step up dude

stop calling him diddy it's demeaning

lol

[img1]

Keepo

actually fazz his decision to go for that is correct. The way the fight turns out is just really horrible for fazz....
It should actually lead to a frag by fazz with fazz remaining on around 35 - 60hp (50 is still up so he'll be near 100 and ready for the next ra).

That cypher then is early for red is quite a large mistake (which is due to him trying to force a spawn at the mega side). He should however never be on the RA... he should be between the pillars untill RA is up and then peak into lower YA, get railed -> do dmg -> pick up ra -> leave.

i mean the moment when ddk says "cypher has everything" at 2nd ra, not first fight. My point is he's misreading stacks and situations after first frag. i doubt cypher was forcing spawns like 5 secs after he saw fazz's respawn anyway :DDDD

Damn I must be more drunk that I realized :D

Or maybe I just can't believe how anyone would make a mistake like that :D
Cypher should've definitely stayed between the pillars there.

:O woops, maybe I should rush these a bit less, thanks for calling me out :)

k I'm drunk right now but even I don't miss that fazz picks up RA on 2:15...... That you do miss that makes you wrong for a minute or so... so I stopped it there.... and I'll see if Federer started his game :D

Sorry if I'm blunt or anything alcohol ;x

gief!

now on episode 12 you got the facey dahang lips Keepo

This is cool! Watch more and share more, people!

couple of things in my defense: on first RA i wanted to rj up, take the YA and then take RA after having a chance to bounce the guy when he was jumping down from MH platform. After missing every single rocket i micro-raged and inverted the pickups lol. Basically i think having the opportunity to get a big advantage from the start is worth having the LG after him (I'll get it when he gets rockets).

2:25 game clock, i tought MH was up and that he wanted to go there from downstairs, so i just jumped towards the RL, but you are maybe right

the whole situation around 11:00 yt clock happened because i failed to press jump, then decided to took shards and then failed to drop (and massivly misplaced the rockets because of that)

at 16:00 i went to mh because of the shitspawn and i had the mh time to the second (indeed i miss it by a tenth). And if he takes the mega right away and rj up i'm fucked. If he takes the mega and Chases me, i'm trapped with nothing to fight with... So i decided to try to steal it, hit 150 dmg and make my next spawn a lot more valuable because it's 35 seconds away from MH and he's not that stacked and maybe i got an LG and YA right away. Sadly i missed it and only did the damage.

at 19:00 i probably tought he was around my stack as well, maybe 50 more, so i tought he'd go for the ya and position instead of the mega since i have position. But i heard the jump 1 tenth of a second after i moved the mouse away from the arch and couldn't punish his blind push enough.

at 23:00 when i push into the plasmaroom i just want to exchange some dmg and gtfo.. Also avoiding a rocket it's not that hard there because of the stairs. Obv i got a facial because the dude was somehow so confident about something and walked towards me and guessed the right spot after i hesitated to avoid some spam shots o.O wanted to exchange damage and take the other ya.

at 25:00 who's the guy coughing?

on the kill: i decided to go for the kill because it's a) funnier b) if you got a chance to frag on lostworld, take it. And if he spawns from the other side of the map he'll be out of position for the LG\RL and for a chase.

Last bait: if you make a comeback and your opponent got nothing, you go for the trollkill. It's the rule.

I think my episode was the longest so far :D many thanks to diddy, happy day!

also broken keyboard

Keep em comming. (Specially another community now and then because they are fresh)..!!!

Woo there's one with me losing !

neat

.

does this count?

Error: You have already judged this post

Would you consider making an analysis on the ztn I won vs toxjq @ dreamhack ?

That was probably my least expected result ever and it proved to give me 2nd place of my group ahead of fraze and fazz. I don't even know if this demo was saved anywhere/anyhow though :(

The demo

Ah man nice thanks :)

DDK PLZ <3 You made one where I lose it's only fair to make one where I win ! Tox actually wp'ed me although I dont remember it at all :D

it's currently rendering! it's the best produced ql plays ep ever! xD quite funny when you look back at the first one. there's a lot of improvements to be made as well for sure.

I also have a vid of some titanfall gameplay.

Great thanks :)

This is actually the first time I watch it since playing it. It does look better and better indeed. Hope you keep it up ! Loved it

Cheers

looks like something fucked up with the render, trying to fix it and i'll reupload!

ok sure :p

Maybe you could take a demo of REALLY weak player (like me) and analyze it in a way "what should not be done during playing duel"? I would have to prolly create new ESR account and QL profile to avoid forevermore shame, but hey - worth learning.

well making some "clasic mistakes" vid would be pretty useful and fairly easy to do.
It's often hard to explain what someone does wrong in a high skilled game... but you can quickly name the "large mistake" as to why someone loses a fight.

maybe some classic cpm tdm? =)

http://challenge-tv.com/demos/view/19872

yea will definitely try get around to it! trying to add more production to my videos now so they take a bit longer to make!

Have you thought about this "how not to play" video?

bump, just added dem0n - toxic (ep16) to the topic!

bump, ep 17 is out! me vs etty in a game that we played today. I think this is one of the better videos in the ql plays for sure. Well, the audio is great at the very least :).

gonna watch for sure... "only" 30% lg ddk? what happened? low acc. for you!! :(

question: is your 35%+ lg a natural thing or a LOT of practice? (probably both i supose). How do/did you practice lg to get to those accuracys?

It's somewhat natural in some senses because I believe there are a lot of situations that don't require "raw" aim. You can for example make a strong guess as to how your opponent has to move in many infight situations, a lot of that is experience and some of it is just quick thinking and adjusting to each individual case. One easy example of this is, certain spots could be considered positionally poor for an LG vs LG fights, let's say, you're standing on the pillar above red on Furious Heights and your opponent is fighting you from the 50h area. You have nowhere to move, he just has to keep his crosshair centered on the pillar there as that's all the space you have to work with for dodging etc. That's a bit of a simplified version but I think it illustrates the point well enough.

Another element that's not so "raw aim" is that opponents tend to dodge differently, some players are easier to pick up on than others but there tends to be general trends. Once you've played enough your aim improves partly because you are better are recognising and dealing with certain dodging trends. This also helps you to improve your own dodging in turn, which is a great side effect!

Lastly I'll add that generally aim was always a strength for me, I think it mostly came from just a lot of hard practice, which really helps to pick you up in the spots you find yourself in where aim needs to be very deliberate. By that I mean, there is no solid information to inform you how he'll move, so you have to react and have maintain precision with your mouse. Finding a comfortable setup and sticking with it is really important here, also recognising what kind of mouse shapes work for you. I have small girly hands so I've always felt restricted to smaller ambidextrous mice. I used the diamondback for the majority of my high level gaming background and later moved onto the Abyssus. But it doesn't stop there, you need to pick a way that feels consistent and reliable to use the mouse, I chose arm on the desk with a claw grip. After that then there are different techniques to work on, the situations in which you use your wrist and which you use more forearm. That also leads into switching up mousing techniques for optimised aiming; claw with the butt of the hand as the pivot on the mousepad which can give more precision on flicks (rail, rl), or lifting the palm up which allows smoother tracking (lg).

These are just some of my thoughts though, I'm sure many other good players have their own completely different ideas to add. Thanks for watching!

thanks for the answer!! I sure have to work on that.
Hope to see you on a sunday cup "thinking out loud" fraze style while playing some. Or your co-caster can do all the work while you play :P
Ok, i know... wont happen

Well I've been duelling a bit, I might start streaming when I get over some of the rust and you can hear that, no promises though :D.

Thanks for talking about bad/not very smart decisions of yours :)

yeah, to be honest as well I'm trying to play to my strengths at the moment which are more execution based. The reason being that I haven't played in so long, a lot of the routine that allows a more considered tactical approach on fights/control is just not there at the moment, we'll see how quickly it comes back if I keep playing some though!

You know, bad play results mostly in loosing point - this is getting killed. I like that you pointed out not only, that particular play was bad, because you died, but also you pointed out what went wrong, which decision was bad and why. One can learn a lot from well described mistakes.

bumpey bump

it used to be too long, now its too short :p
aim in between and it will be awesome

Nice analysis anyways

noted, and thanks!