Great! I've subscribed to your Youtube-channel now, so I won't miss any gold.

Needs more promode.

until promod starts getting bigger maps that actually need brain and are not just mechfests, there is nothing to analyse

If bigger maps require more strategy, then surely Tribes or BF3 are the most strategic games? Besides, QL/vq3 lacks a tiered armor and complex MH timing system so item control is less sophisticated. Sure, the movement in CPM is faster and weapon switch instant, but position still plays an important role on the more vertical maps (like cpm24, cpm3a, and cpm1a).

Personally, I see the whole CPM vs. VQ3/QL debate as being a difference in taste. CPM is more like jazz music (where the fast gameplay can encourage creativity/improvisation) and VQ3/QL is more like classical music (there are very few "correct" ways to play it).

Why are you bringing completely different games with completely different game mechanics into the discussion? I agree on the VQ3 vs CPM part, it's matter of taste.

The bigger maps for CPM would need more predicting and false reads cost more, easy as that. To put it in other way, conscious thought about tacs vs just reactionary actions based on sound/visual cues - when a game is as fast as CPM is and the maps are as small as they are, the latter prevails.

And could you please elaborate on the part how the armor and mega systems give more depth? As much as I have played with them in various games (CPM, QW, Warsow though it had it little different) it has always felt to me that the tiered system gives you less freedom on how to play a map and kinda dictates more what you want to do.

Because you raised one issue: bigger map = more brains. Clearly it is not that simple if Tribes and BF3 isn't more strategic.

Edit: Thought it was it :P

Lol, wow you're worked up.

Doing these responses from cellphone so I apologize if they are disjointed.

The tiered armor makes map control more difficult as you cannot constantly absorb shards/ armor. If you are at 150 armor, you cannot pick up yellow. So this forces players with total armor lock to make a decision: self damage, guard yellow, or be aggressive to draw damage. Good CPM players, who are out of control, will also use the tiered system as a means to break enemy control. You can force in control players into situation that test their control.

MH system favors the one who recently got it. In this case, it can either give an in control player a stronger map lock or significantly weaken the control of the player with armor control.

Edit: regarding your muscle memory comment, that is true of ql/vq3. Aiming, movement, and dodging is mostly muscle memory in both cpm and ql. There may be some active thinking about dodging/aiming now and then, but it is mostly muscle memory. When we start talking about slowing the game down to add emphasis on active cognition and not just muscle memory, this is a continuum and not discrete differences between slow and fast gameplay. If you slow the gameplay, it does not immediately impact depth of gameplay. We could play ql at 0.25 timescale and I do not think that'll make it 4x brainier. The mechanics of the gameplay are the more important aspect, not speed or size of map.

Having thought about it I agree that the tiered armor + mega system add more depth adding additional variables (what armor he has and depending on that will he be looking for hp or not after a confrontation for example) to keep track on.

And about muscle memory if you haven't read the exchange I had with nzr0 I'll quote (this is about micro level prediction):

Yes, you can not remove the reaction part from it, but you can change how it works. For example in Q2 and OSP the weapons, even hitscan, were much more prediction heavy. It did following: (1) they opened the close quarter fights up much more and made them more tactical; (2) they introduced the element of thinking what your enemy does next opposed to reacting to what your opponent is doing now.

Yes, this also has a reaction element to it, but bigger part than now consists of experience and what kind of aim statistically works. Based on this I think that on micro level CPM is a failure (compared to Warsow for example).

When it comes to macro level prediction then I find you have to consider:

1) The quantity of the information, or the lack of it in this case. How far can you see/hear on the map?

2) The result of false, or correct, prediction. The less you hear, the more you have to predict and giving enough options you are more likely to predict wrong. Now if you predict wrong, how much will you give away. With bigger maps you give away an entire side of a map (more items). With smaller maps you give away an item or simply not killing him just right now because the player in control can fix his macro level mistake too quickly. So pulling a move on a player on different sized maps gives the puller different rewards.

And I agree on the game mechanic comment. I'm talking about keeping the same mechanics as of now, just that on macro level the mechanics decide the size of the map and what you want to achieve.

Just because you have more time to decide on the same choices does not make a game more tactical. Take a standard choice, whatever it might be at two extremes: ql at 0.25 timescale and cpm at timescale 4. Now whether your decision is because you have 4 times more time to think consciously or because you have played that situation 4 times more and you can make the same decision subconsciously it doesn't affect the number of choices you can make. All it does is affect the balance of micro and macro management. And in a game such as starcraft it makes sense to skew it towards macro, but I don't see the reason to do so in a game like an FPS where the amount of choices you can make is always so much smaller.

The 0.25 player will be making more correct decisions, also he will be able to go predict what happens far further in the future. The timescale 4 player will make much more mistakes and will play much more in the present because the circumstances/variables change far too rapidly. But this was not my point.

CPM needs bigger maps to lessen the amount of confrontations and sound/visual cues to introduce higher level of prediction and mind games. This is currently also problem of the smaller/semi sized maps in QL where you can not pull moves just because he can hear and predict you too easily due to sounds, and because the walking is too slow it's really hard to make him misjudge. It's not about the amount of choices, but about what your opponent knows about what you are doing and how you can counter it. ALSO if he picks wrongly how costly the mistake will be.

For me Quake is about mind games: what does he think that I think that he thinks. In micro and macro level it should not be that reaction heavy. IMO other games are for that.

Bigger maps would only lessen the power of projectile weapons, essentially turning it back into vq3/ql. What it sounds like you want is a different sound system and I'm on the ropes regarding that. Sometimes I don't like knowing the enemy can hear every sound I make but I sure as shit prefer it to playing the guessing game that is the vq3/ql sound system.

For me Quake is about mind games: what does he think that I think that he thinks. In micro and macro level it should not be that reaction heavy. IMO other games are for that.

How the fuck can you say that quake should not be about reactions? I am staggered. Why aren't you playing starcraft or poker if you're that into mind games? I mean it sounds like you'd be happy if everyone had a 35% acc bot and it was all down to tactics...

1) Bigger maps does not mean only scaling bigger, but also more rooms and different architecture. Hitscan or projectile weapon use is a matter of how the level is built and what stuff is built in it. A box shaped map can be rendered useless for shaft if a pillar is put in the middle of it.

2) You are comparing oranges to apples with the sound comment.

cpm=you can hear too much aka the distance from you
vq=you do not know always exactly where you hear from aka the location

They are 2 completely different things.

3) Because Quake is the Starcraft of FPS. What do you think why cooller or rapha got famous for? It is the epitome of smart FPS.

Yes, you can not remove the reaction part from it, but you can change how it works. For example in Q2 and OSP the weapons, even hitscan, were much more prediction heavy. It did following: (1) they opened the close quarter fights up much more and made them more tactical; (2) they introduced the element of thinking what your enemy does next opposed to reacting to what your opponent is doing now.

You basically are a 35% bot, but now it's important how much do different situations and variables within them matter while you're trying to aim. For example, how much does your aim differ with a shaft while your opponent is running at you down a corridor or he is bouncing you around with rockets. Currently the contrast in QL and CPM is too small. CPM also has problems with too easy mistake correction which we have talked about before.

Also, if a person is using a weapon severely out of position then it draws out more and those people who do it more consistently show a variety in styles.

4) Quake has always been about mind games. Moving the game from in front of the players to their heads, even if partially, is a higher dueling concept that you have repeatedly before failed to understand and for which I will never respect you as a Quaker. You want muscle (k1lsen), I want smarts (rapha), but I want both to be viable. Aim deficiency should be able to be balanced with smarts. And I repeat, It's about better balance, not about complete removal. The balance is shit in QL and it's shit CPM. There are too many reactionary cues (mainly sound) that fuck this up.

Anyways, this discussion is getting into the same framework as the one we had some time ago where you proved that you're unable to comprehend the ideas presented to you. For this I will not continue this conversation and wish you all the best.

You know what, I can't respect a quaker who needs to play quake to feel smarter, so yeah, lets call it quits.

There are no footstep sounds in CPM so you can stop speeding around a map and walk (this is an analog to when someone in QL shiftwalks around the map). Also, on most of the primary 5 CPM duel maps (1a, 3a, 15, and 24), the maps are sufficiently big that you cannot hear clear across the map. If you're at MH on 3a, you cannot hear rail or RA being picked up. So there are chances for knowledgeable players to stage traps and be sneaky.

No footsteps is a good concept and I wish I could try an implantation of in QL (no footsteps with gauntlet for example).

But, I find the speed of CPM to decrease the effect of it lots on the maps you mentioned. I mean a good player scouts the map basically in matter of seconds giving the other player too short time to pull traps that are not located on the safer end of the spectrum. Of those maps you mentioned I think cpm15 is the closest to what the size/architecture/game flow maps should aim at if you kept the CPM mechanics.

terrible analogy

You are WRONG.

the fact ql is slower makes it caster friendly, however I'm sure that there's someone willing to analyze cpm games, not ddk unfortunately : D he's too busy with ql

post count before the thread got derailed : 1

not so bad

Looks like the Russian President that got shit on by Pussy Riot. and as far as the other people in this this picture they all look Russian to me :P

if you see russians in brits, you might want to get checked out

lol im so bad at guessing stuff XD

Nice work ddk :) what's your reason for treating us with this? :)

Cynical bastard!

anyways thanks for these vids :)

How about a demo pack from the FACEIT Spring Season Championship Finale.

I second.

YYYYEEEEESSSSS!!!

Please please ddk do one where I'm featured !! :) (losing or winning!)

:D

If you have any in mind just link me :). Otherwise I shall await your next streamed performances!

Preferably on Silence, please! :)

Request: analyze a hitsu game.

Request: analyze a hitsu comment.