map is great. put it in map pools mofos!

i really really hope that 125 and faceit are gonna give this map another chance.

the map was already great in its last version. only remaning negative aspect was the railgun-gimmick. and now its finally removed!

good luck man, amazing map. even if it will take time, people will realize its potential for great duels sooner or later!

unfortunately the quake crowd is unforgiving and ignorant most of the time. i hope you are right but i dont expect it.

be more optimistic man :)

Delirium fuse sinister cure silence + any 2 old maps. Lets make this shit happen.

what was wrong with 1 minute rail spawn? surely such a thing cant brake the whole gameplay?

weapon control is an interesting aspect that has a much smaller role in quake live than in quake 3.

its a shame you listen to these people who are so reluctant to even small changes. the same people who would be still playing dm6 only if quake live didnt kill the whole q3 scene.. and when a new map comes, again they want it to work like the maps they already know.
So the argument here, to exclude the rail spawn idea again isnt non functionality but just that its.. different, and you have to learn and adapt.

Different maps that are still to come if we let them, can give us much more in terms of gameplay than we can imagine. Even just playing around with the elements that are already present, but in a different way can provide a totaly new flow and dynamics that are not classicaly a quake thing.

edit: Its one map, and one idea, just like you have fast and slow maps. I never said rail spawn should change for all maps and forever as that would be totally opposed to what im saying here.


if you dont like new things, just dont play them and play the same stuff you did till now if its so perfect, instead of trying to change new stuff that inherently tries to be different.

Bullshit.
Changing a single item time spawn change the gameplay we love,we play,we pay for.
If Tomorrow somebody change red spawn to 50 secs for example,what u gonna think? Armours weapons and powerups have a certains time spawn in quakelive,in almost all gamemode/maps and this is how our game is based on,so dont fuckin think to change some item spawn in a certain map for make the match more interesting,that gonna be a fail.

I agree.

1. Those times are a product of years of balancing.
2. People play what they like to play. Imagine someone saying "dude stop playing soccer with your feet, the game has to evolve".
3. About the specific map I can only talk from a spectator point of view: 1.0 Sinister was the most boring duel map to watch in all quake live. No idea why was that or how to fix it.

Making all the spawns 5s across all maps is years of balancing now?

items are

weapons .... are weird.

I like how you say bullshit and then proceed to prove his point.

thought it was kind of interesting to throw off the timing for one item like the rail.

agree with not every map having different times for basic items though.

this isnt about different times for items, but faggotry of players who want old maps mechanics on new maps, just because they played ztn and dm6 for last 10 years.

Clearly, wanting old map mechanics on new maps is gay in the most undesirable way...huh??

Do away with the pieces of your comments that reveal your gross ignorance and people will start listening to you.

god, you're stupid, and clearly sheep'ish enough to follow trend of trying to flame me for no reasons.


why do we need new maps, if they will be played exactly same way like the old ones? isnt it better to have 4 different color themes?

point of having new map is to have something fresh. obviously you cant avoid changing core mechanics or quake like timing, movement or weapons. but with correct mix of these with map geometry you can get something awesome.

its not an accident dm13 is the least liked map in the mappool. you cant rail your ass to the contol there. its unique. same story with dm6, where you cant just hide between ya's to the point when you can set some trap on a major item. also unique gameplay.


so basiclly fuck off, and comeback when you're at least half as smart as you pretend to be.

Way to totally miss the point of my message - you used a completely misplaced term ("faggotry"), thereby removing any credibility for your comment (Comment #21). Your response here completely ignores what I pointed out there, and just continues your run of ignorant comments that draw flame and criticism, which is actually your own doing, not my sheepishness.

So chill out with getting all defensive when I point out a significant flaw in your message (which totally discredits it) and focus on composing a better message in the future.

which part of fuck off did you not understand?


your post had no point, you just disapprove my choice of words so you will get more of my attention

and apparetnly you are gay, otherwise you wouldnt feel so ass raped [which i guess is nice feeling for you] cause of word faggotry

I disapproved of your choice of words because they literally don't make sense - how does wanting a certain style of map equate to homosexuality?

And as for my post being pointless - the point was to highlight your ignorance and discredit your argument (which I don't agree with, if you haven't figured that out yet). And it was also to piss you off :P

Go on, Hitsu, you're way ahead on this one...

just in case you're dense enough to not spot it yet - calling ppl gay on internet is offensive, and that was my point

so yeah, your post was pointess, same as this whole chain.


and its small h

weapon respawn time in duel is a joke, you should understand it as a tdm'er

t4 tony?
i think you can make some exceptions if the flow of the map is good, of course.

T4 is a joke,this is coz its no kore played,changed alot in the years from damage thru floors to the actual style of map,Now rail makes 80 damage instead of 100,this is Not q3,the control of a weapon can be done in ql without changing his time respawn,the problem is that is almost useless,if you wanna do something like this you must increase spawn delay on shaft coz its the most devastating weapon,the rail is already nerfed.

t4.

t4.

VV ^ ^

I loved the 1min RG and gong but lets be honest, it didn't work, at least not in this map. The advantage was to big and the one out of control had a really hard time to get back into it, which is very annoying for everyone and turns into a rather onesided and boring game.

I don't think it was something that just didn't get accepted, it rather didn't work well.

I like the idea as well. The concept of more emphasis on weapon control would be very interesting but it didn't work as you mention yourself.

My experience was that the player in control had too easy a time managing just 3 powerups. That the rail spawned every 60 seconds just made it that harder for the player out of control to deal with it.

I had a theory that setting the rail respawn to 30 seconds would make it an additional powerup. It could more easily be stolen and would probably push the efforts of the player in control further, as there are obviously more items to keep track of. Even with the 5 second offset I'm thinking that the item timing could get a bit more challenging. (armor = 25, RG = 30, MH = 35)

All that put aside, the map was interesting and the new changes look good as well. I especially like the stuff done around MH. Let's hope it plays out better and it's not already too late to have the map put into play :)

yeah exactly - rg respawn was too long

It'd be more easily stolen if it respawns every 5 seconds than every 30 or 60.

q: Making all the spawns 5s across all maps is years of balancing now?

a: items are, weapons .... are weird.


eot

It's clear for all quakers really, but anyway I'll explain it:

In q3 taking weapons took more effort and it was easier to defend them, making the game more complex in the process, precisely because the respawn time was longer. Just like with the armor and armor system, this was a process that started in q1.

In ql it was a decision made out of nowhere to make it only 5 seconds, hence why it is weird that all that duel balancing was ruined without consulting people. Most probably the reason to make weapons respawn every 5 seconds is to have an easier time picking up them (can't pick RL if it isn't there) and it's not that great to change the rules from each mod, so it is 5 seconds in ffa, duel and so on except tdm and t4.

That same effect can be replicated in Sinister, now with a positive effect. Think about it (what a bad of time explaining quake to hitsu)..

think about what?

killing important part of the game, and stoping attempts to revive it?:>


on the other hand, 5 second respawn makes weapon control harder than it was in q3

That's the whole idea and that's what I wrote. In 1.0 Sinister it was too easy to control the railgun because it respawned every 1 minute, making comebacks difficult and matches very one sided (boring). Now someone proposed to change it to 30 in order to make it easier, and my idea is to make it consistent with the rest of the game (5) so it's even easier than 30.

That just addresses the problem with breaking control on the map. It wouldn't exactly be that innovative or interesting a solution altogether.

since when quake is about being all nice and cozy?


60 was too much, but rg control is nice idea, especially now, after gong is removed. 15-20-30 all would work better than 60. matter of balance.


but you're exactly the typo of guy BalkanFM was talking about :-)

I don't like that weapons respawn every 5 seconds and I'm not even a quake3 player per se (played it lets say 6 hours total before QL. My background is q2).. Thing is that's a better way of reaching the objective.

nope, we didnt reach the objective, we just made sinister play like any other map.

our aim was to make a map where ppl would battle for rg control

on this map rg is very important when u are out of control
it's really hard to get back without this weapon and with 1min respawn vs good enemy u will never get rg

Yellack you da man!

looks good to me

Looks really promising, can't wait to test it!

is there a way to get the pk3 file?

the corridor doesn't look as cramped, I like that

thanks for your hard work

We didn't change corridors :s

yeah I watched games on sinister and redux after that

for whatever reason, I remembered the little corridor on the right of what is now the rail spawn to be rather small and you'd have a hard time moving in there

curious to see how it'll play now

so basiclly mh initial spawns get +100hp, rail and +100 armour? :> bad ideaaaaaaa :D

make rail spawn like every 30 or 40 seconds. 1 minute was too long, but it was fun to control it

I think it will be
LG YA RA
vs
RG MH YA

while the start could already be interesting if you just pick up rg > mh > tele, do dmg at ra etc, theres quite some opportunities now.

Nice! Always liked sinister. 2 YAs is always a great idea!

I already liked sinister. Plays a bit like Dismemberment but more vertical and more interesting architecturally. With these changes I've no doubt it'll be even better

Just a couple of suggestions :

- cut middle bar in half for another shortcut route.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/4f72lq

- raise the whole floor from RA room.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/8lbe2g

first suggestion is very good

second one is bad

seriously, implenting the first suggestion, making it able to do a trickjump from the pillars through the window would be fucking EPIC

Concerning 1st suggestion: Do you think, that having a quick access from RA to MH is a good idea? IMO its not.

good point. havent thought of that.

well its a quick access, yes. but then again, think of t7 or ztn.

and it would only a one-sided access. you can get from RA to MH, but not vice versa.

Personally I like the idea for aesthetic reasons (think of how beautiful and fluid you could move throughout the map).

But we'll see, would love to hear what yellack thinks of this.

Yellack wrote on the OP: "This will be our last attempt to improve the map. We hope you enjoy the changes, give it another go! "

im merely interested in what he thinks of this idea, not about its implementation

Ye, we wont do anymore changes unless theres a horrible spawn or something.

First pic: Can't say really, it could be good.
Second pic: Would make the LG area pretty flat and boring, also don't see what you gain really, besides beeing a little bit faster maybe.

It's not that quick , check the map.

Its 3 jumps. Isn't it?

From RA to pillar
From pillar to window
From Window to MH

But if this jump will be really very hard to accomplish, than probably it will be interesting to have it.

After passing window and dropping down you must take a left so it's 1 more jump :).

But MH and RG positions were switched in the latest version.

You are right, ouch. In this case my idea with window is kinda overpowered.

Why is the second one bad ?

because you can already move fluently through the area when you know the right way and the tricks. its super fast then too, you just need to learn it.

challenging movement paths = good, in my eyes

You cut speed in exchange of tricks which btw are not usefull. I prefer horizontal rocket jumps to boost player's speed = more fun.
I link a message I posted about this issue :
http://www.esreality.com/post/2437118/possibl...pid2437560

In Yellack We Trust

Amazing \o/

Give us the update already!

My only problem with this map was the initial spawns conflict on RA room (free frag for the lg spawn). I think removing the 1 minute railgun is not that bad of an idea. After all, the one who's gonna be denied the railgun is the one out of control... who needs it badly to deal un-returned damage on item pickups. Well, it was crucial mainly because there was only one yellow so you couldn't really stack on minor items fast enough to get back into the game without dealing damage. Now we have both enough minor items and the weapon to punish major item pickups. I would have chosen one or the other.

Looks good! Needs testing!

Great changes!
Special thanks for the pillar in the RA room.

I will miss RG gong though )

go sinister go

Too bad, 1 minute RG respawn was a really nice and distinct touch. With 5 second respawn you take weapons' availability for granted; otherwise, you have to start thinking also about this aspect of the game.

Once all this is out, someone do a "new maps cup" with sini, fuse and all. Maybe like: 1st round Fuse, 2nd round Sini etc, with bo5 final. I give 50 bucks.

/me stares @ memento mori/targetquake/zoot/ins/facey

I wouldn't recommend such cups.
Check history of single new map cups versus multiple new map cups - turns out the attendance and overall elo is higher on single map cups.

Having separate cups for maps usually yields more thorough map testing with better players but also means bigger financial strain for whoever is sponsoring it.

There will surely be some sort of cup to showcase new maps, eagerly waiting for the update \o/

Well, for me its more entertaining to see several maps than just one over and over, especially when we have this much new material. And I fear a new sini cup will result in something like "omg this again, give it a rest already!" :D

But ye, you might be right and either is fine ofc.

And I fear a new sini cup will result in something like "omg this again, give it a rest already!" :D

Yeah I'm sure people are slowly getting tired of it because it was tested, failed, re-tested, failed again etc...

The new changes look really promising, I can see this map replacing something from the current map pool.

sinister is my fav map in like 2 years. hope, these changes gonna make it even better!

Looks like we gotta run another sinister cup ;)

Looking forward to play it!

Will definitely look into adding it to the Points Cups on FACEIT!

ppl dont play it
cause new maps arent played in cups

those maps are good:
-battleforged
-cure
-sinister new version looks nice
-silence

for me, map pool should be changed
no need next 10 years of dm13, ztn, aero etc.. :S

new good maps:
concrete palace (plays nice)
focal point (which could be tweaked a bit and it would be great)
terminatria (not so bad)
windsong keep (plays nice)

so do some older
wicked
dismemberment

and yes no more dm13, ztn, aero, dm6.

Sinister is one of the few new maps I really enjoy playing I really liked the 1 min rail respawn time and its abit of a shame if its down to 5 seconds, could have worked if it was downed to something like 30 seconds insted.

Preferred the old location of the rail as well made for some good fast teleporter steals when out of control

I LIKE IT

Gute Arbeit Yellack ;)

this looks much, much better than before and altough i liked the concept of the rail spawn on paper in game it was a bitch to do damage out of control. hopefully it's gonna be awesum now.

Don't know how I feel about this. The addition of the new way to jump up at the mh jumppad and the new ra pillar are great, it's always good to have more freedom of movement and small tricks on a map. All the other changes though are just changes. They make the map different in how it plays and it's hard to say if they will improve it. What bothers me about that is that there was nothing wrong with the map in the first place (after the last time it was updated that is). It looked good, was balanced, allowed for different ways to play it. Most players' opinions who tried the map that I've asked were positive.

The reason it wasn't played is simply because faceit didn't add it to their mappool (no new map is ever played unless it's forced into mapools). And it wasn't added, not because it wasn't good enough but because you can't put every good map into a 5-map pool.

Now if you had just switched the rail with invisibility it would be a whole different story...

Was great and still is great :)

old news, I understand