Just realized qcon did not have hub :o

but but but but

ztn ((((((

Totally agree, there are more than enough new maps for a bo5 and bo7 later on now. Things need to change, but with Quake mappool it happens once in a decade and it must be changed.

if I remember correct, Silence and Fuse are good maps, haven't played enough games on Delirium or Sinister.

but yes, please phase out some of the older maps.

and maybe less rg+rail and more rockets?

QL NEEDS GOOD NO RG/LG MAP!!!

we could always bring back t4...

t4 is boring in ql

Be better if the Mega spawn was not so long and standard 35 sec. I think it would change the whole flow of that map cause as it stands now its all about just cycling the two yellows and moving out to grab the mega every 1:30 or whatever it is on that map.

cut cold turkey to new maps pool, dont bother with a transition (which we are sort of already in)

sinister feels good
silence is okay

these are the only two "new and good" maps I would add at the moment, still haven't played a single game of cure, fuse or delirium though

-_-

agree with the top 2 bits

Before that it is needed to make a list of all good, acceptable duel maps in QL:
- Aerowalk (hub)
- Battleforged
- Blood Run (ztn)
- Campgrounds (dm6)
- Cure
- Delirium.
- Dismemberment
- Furious heights (t7)
- Fuse
- Hektik
- House of decay (t9)
- Lost world.
- Silence.
- Sinister.
- Toxicity.
- Vertical vengeance (t4).

Out of those, they can be sorted out based on which are stagnated or not already:
- Q3 and QL classics: aerowalk, bloodrun, lost world, furious heights (t7), maybe toxicity.
- Former or forgotten classics: campgrounds, dismemberment, vertical vengeance.
- Semi-new or entirely new, that aren't classics: hektik, house of decay, silence, sinister, cure, fuse, delirium, battleforged.
- Need improving so not in the list: proving grounds (t2), phrantic, almost lost and trinity (qcon2008), the edge.


As you can see, the problem is not a lack of maps: there's tons of unused good maps, which are entirely new (cure, fuse), semi-new though still fresh (t9, silence) or forgotten classics (dm6, t4). The fresh picks are In the second and third groups, with 10 to choose from.

The problem is that in a bo5 having 'sacred' maps is not good for having a new rotation. Those are ztn, dm13, t7 and aerowalk (or tox replacing hub); so that in a pool with 5 maps there will be one or at most two new maps, no matter the 10 alternatives, because the other 3 or 4 spots are already filled in by those stagnated classics.

How to solve it: either by removing those classics entirely (no ztn, no t7, etc.) so it's 3, 4 or 5 new maps in a bo5, or by increasing the pool up to 7 or more. That has never been done in QL lans, as the best they achieve is 4 stagnated maps (q3 or ql classics) and one new.

Now, what's the source of this ischju? Players themselves not wanting to remove ztn, furious heights and others, which is a necessity in a bo5. At the same time they refuse to have pools of more than 5 maps.
Lets review what dkt proposed: 5 maps, with t7, tox and cure. That means that out of three proposed only one is a new (cure), leaving two spots to fill in and we know one of those will necessarily be ztn or dm13; 3 or 4 classics in a bo5. That's not the solution and I'd say players themselves don't want to change this really, but they say they do.

What I personally like, which is different than saying this is what should be done, is having larger pools, with 9 maps for example, or more even so it includes both classic and fresh maps. There's the variety this game needs and most competitive players know the forgotten classics (dm6, t4) and the semi-new maps (hektik, t9).
It has to be said that on this system the map pick process is of the essence, as in pick-pick or remove-pick, chosen based on if the players/admins want new maps to be actually picked or not (the odd choice possibility or remove everything that isn't ztn), or if they want a point in between (players being able to remove only two maps, which will lead some new maps to be never played but not them all)

Battleforged? Really?

Put it last for a reason, but it isn't thaaat bad.

list of good, acceptable duel maps: hektik. :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

for the edge they need to scrap the new version and get back winter's edge. fuck, I wouldn't even change the visuals

XMAS ALL YEAR ROUND MOTHERFUCKERS, HO HO HO

It has way too many hp bubbles.

and lolRA.

and no cooller easter egg

ofc items need to be sorted

In regards to "acceptable duel maps" Why doesn't devilish get any play time? Seems like a pretty balanced and awesome map. I have only done like 2 duels on it (so hard to find someone willing to play it) and it always seems fun. You guys have any thoughts on devilish as a duel map?

real duel isnt fun.

its sweat, tears and blood!

While being fun.

Totally agree with you destrukt.

A good new duel mappool would consist of :

- Fuse
- Delirium
- Silence
- Sinister
- Cure

And if it's bo7, add :

- FuriousHeights
- Bloodrun

And if one of the newer maps isn't good enough, then replace it with :

- Aerowalk










I think that we have to get rid of dm13 (LostWorld) and Toxicity/Hektik. LostWorld is an old and boring map, only good thing is that there isn't a rail, but otherwise I think that LostWorld is a bit boring to play/watch. Toxicity is better suited for PQL/CPM Imho, same for hektik.
But some maps like Aerowalk Bloodrun and FuriousHeights are must have maps. They have proven over time that they deserve to be in the mappool, because they are just very good duel maps.

HWG He4rTL3sS

Sinister
Never Played

Fuse
Never Played

Delirium
Never Played

Cure
Never Played

Silence
Never Played

I wonder how you know those maps are 'good new duel maps'.

And to anyone using the 'classic map/ must have map' arguement for maps like ZTN, it's true that the map is good, which is why it's been in map pools for over 10 years. However, it's unfair to newer players who have to learn a map that some people have played for 10 years. It's time to let go.

"However, it's unfair to newer players who have to learn a map that some people have played for 10 years."

Please people, stopping using this argument, makes me wanna stab everyone.

"Please people, stopping using this argument, makes me wanna stab everyone." - np:

However, it's pointless for newer players to catch up on a map that some people have played for 14+ years.

troubled waters: 1999 q3
campgrounds: 1999 q3
lost world: 1999 q3
aerowalk: 1997 qw
bloodrun: 1997 qw

stfu nolife

pure off topic flames coming up next.
if you got a brain, plz skip this and the potentially following posts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

hi teioh,

your contribution "stfu nolife" to this constructive thread about renewing the map list, makes you look even more useless, than i did ingame a couple of hours ago.
still raging that hard? plz whine more, baerlic. and plz flame more people about having no life, while you hang arround with danstar. (hahahaha, baerlic. seriously? hahahaha)

this subject is way too important for your off topic whine/rage.
so why you flame me in this thread, instead of ingame or on irc(SmackGyver)? i make you look stupid further there. anytime.

i don't even know how to interpret you stupidity.
you are stupid enough, that ...
a) it took you so long to find out the nickname smackahontas is related to the disney film pocahontas i watched with my nephew the day i registered
b) you think i care about the nickname, while i obviously created it in 5 seconds and so hardly didnt give a fuck that i kept it for 3+ years
c) you think i really am the cartoon character in real life
d) after your poor flame without arguments you got owned (again) and felt the need to watch disney videos on youtube
e) you assume the nickname or the disney film are somehow relevant while i spank you once again
must be some sort of combination within a) to e).

i cant await your shocking disclosures about SmackGyver, smackintosh, SmackDonald's or any other crap+smack+crap i somewhere typed into the internet. hahahaha.
anytime, baerlic. anytime.

gee this butthurt polish belly dancer always writes walls of rage, never gets old!

danstar, voda, xtina, pokahontas $$$
too shit to play pickups and so proud of their pubstarring
you should play together

lol

imo ur nothing special either, just fuck off and die burli ;)

"too shit to play pickups" - hahahahaha (c) T1E. go and tell that pi3rog in your beloved high-skill-pickups.

that retard plays better then 60% of the pickup players and t1e tbh.
smackanoob stfu and play pickups.

hamzah?
nah, rather better than 61 % (hi baerlic).
no thx, stopped pickups/leagues during q3. and my only attempt in ql to enter a ctf-league with a team got shut down, because out of 7 players 3 werent able to use teamspeak and later on, 2 others got banned for cheats.

what was the clan tag and who was in there?
and why no pickups then?

anonymous#2, oh plz. hehehehe. p&s cpt.

pickups?
having to wait 15 min until the game starts and then being not able to quit it anytime when it is unbalanced, full of noobs and warpers, on a map you hate or commissioner gordon is on the batphone?
furthermore, after the game having to listen to shitstorms from pseudo-skilled intestinal parasites like T1E or whine from bad losers like baerlic?

if you enjoy pickups, hf. but i cant be arsed.

www.esreality.com/post/2462621/re-map-list-ne...pid2462271

baited & predicted.

hey danstar, how come i piss on you nolifer in a random thread and you only need 16 minutes to reply?
still no other hobbies than stalking me on the internet and 24/7-ql?


how about...

bind 1 "say get a life (c) danstar, massive retard bellow average skill after 6+ months time played under 10+ different accounts."

...? hahahahahahaha. and now go and l2p noob.

rattling your cage is so fun :)

bind 1 "say get a life (c) danstar, massive retard bellow average skill after 6+ months time played under 10+ different accounts."

Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

???
sorry didnt watch your cockjockey's youtube clips. stop projecting.

you are in denial that when i said get a life, i came home on a saturday night, logged on to quake and found you talking about me as well as other people stating that u been doing so for hours, hence - get a life. now you think you can mention some numbers and flame an internet pseudonym and achieve something? dont make me laugh. you're forever my victim.

as i wrote "stop projecting" i didnt mean you should mix your projecting with your traditional lies and hallucinated danstarworld happenings.
and now go and watch that disney-youtube-clip you referred to again. hahahahaha.

oh right we are in disney world. the place you got your name from.

the clip is awesome and not as dreadful as you to say the least :>

i think dahang said it @ qcon: new maps wont make any revolution, top players will still be top players.

that's not the point. it's about the low/medium players who have a better chance of catching up. top players will always be top even if you play amphi all day

if top will stay top, how low/med players will catch up?:>

top = highest point.

the difference between top <-> mid and
low <-> mid will close more rapidly

=> everyone gets better!!

but i see what u did there ; )

sorry for late reply, had to think over it.

basiclly i think youre wrong, and its very optimistic opinion.


just look @ strenx whos horrible @ ztn, but he will still beat any 2k elo player there. he lacks map knowledge, but his aim, dodge, decision making etc are still superior.

so basiclly new maps will lead to nothing.

Yes, but stren and 2k player's aren't what I am talking about, but players below say 1700 or something. They'll habe a better time
If they don't get destroyed buy old dogs on ztn verytime they play.

I honestly think the oldschool 1337ism has become so huge that no one is able to catch up a decade of experience, all you can do is wait for the retirement

I wonder how you know those maps are 'good new duel maps'.

Actually I watched A LOT of streams where these maps were played. I especially remember Fuse being played by cypher and evil. From what I have seen, it seemed to be a very good map. Same for Sinister and so on.

And to anyone using the 'classic map/ must have map' arguement for maps like ZTN, it's true that the map is good, which is why it's been in map pools for over 10 years. However, it's unfair to newer players who have to learn a map that some people have played for 10 years. It's time to let go.

Actually I agree with you. But still, not everyone thinks the same as us. Some people DON'T want to see bloodrun removed, and yeah, most of them are quake veterans.
Tho I think that a map like FuriousHeights deserve to be kept in the mappool, cause it's actually a semi-new map, which has already proven to be a really solid one.

I wouldn't consider Furious Heights to be that new really. It's been on pools of every single tournament ever for like 4 years in a row, something that didn't happen not even with ztn or aerowalk.

Anyway, if the standard will still be pools of 5 maps then at least two of the classics have to go. Will it be ztn, dm13, aerowalk or t7?

A second question (for everyone) is if adding toxicity in exchange of one of them would be considered an actual fresh addition to the game, because tox is played all the time too, the new t7. I'd prefer that people don't think removing aerowalk = adding toxicity, as that spot could be filled with something that's actually new, like sinister.

ztn wasn't on QL lans for like a year, which IMO was a good choice. The same happened with campgrounds (though for a longer time), with two effects: people now appreciate it again and not having dm6 in pools opened the gates for new maps in a bo5, like toxicity and hektik.

In my opinion it takes longer than most people think, to realize if a map is good or not. I think it's a good idea to remove 1 old map and add a new one each month (Faceit), and at the end of the month you're able to tell if the map has potential or not. Instantly switching to a pool of all-new maps will scare away quite some players I'm afraid. But eventualy all old maps will have to go, imo.

No! Q3/QL community is to lazy. YOU NEED TO FORCE change mappool. Play all new maps, and if they suck, new maps will come to change. I am oldschool, I don't have time to pracc new maps, I will lose much advantage , but it will be FUN!

I wish we could... Unfortunately, a part of the players and spectators will reject an all-new mappool, which will result in less tournament players and stream viewers, which is bad for the quake community and tournament organizers.

Also, I think if you add new maps one by one you give players enough time to learn the maps.

Allthough I agree with you, that putting one map after each other into the mappool will help players be able to learn them. But you need MORE new maps in a mappool than old ones in order to get them played, since its drop-drop stuff all the way. So in order to force people to play some new maps you need >50% new maps in the pool.

Agreed, it's sad it took this long to be in a position to have a pool with all new maps, but at least we got there.

Screw every map from Q3 in map pools. I don't care what people think about tox or other maps, get ZTN out of the pool and end that nonsense. There's zero need for any Q3 map right now.

Definitely agree that new maps need to be implemented in to competitive map pools. Although as it has been stated, we do need some quality control also.

I think that Sinister, Silence and Cure are very playable and could easily be a solid part of a pool. How ever, I haven't yet been convinced that Delirium or Fuse should be used on the same level. I hope the map makers don't take it personally at all when I say this!

I've seen already that some pools have changed to cater for the newer maps, which is a great sign! I'm looking forward to seeing how things are going to change over the next few months.

t7 dm13 tox + some new ones = $$ I suppose

Ye, dm13 and tox should totally stay.

and tox is a new map afterall!

Well, it's not that old and I totally (again) like it.

Sent you an iMsg.

Am I the only one who thinks that toxicity should be removed?

no you're not :D

I don't think it should be removed.





I think it should be cast into a pit of hellfire and forgotten about so it can't hurt anyone any more.

no

CPM map, never understood why they started to use it in QL.

tox could be good with just 2 or 4 spawn points, I would go with 2. No spawn raping, in general map is realy fun, just to random with spawns.

You want two spawn points? THAT is your solution to spawn raping??

innovation :

map with ONE spawn point

One player telefrags the other at spawn, there's plasma three feet away

HF !

T4!

That almost sounds like 16 player XS+ FFA on test_bigbox (or whatever).

ye

I don't really play new maps until I know for sure they'll stay in the pool longer than 1 season tbh, not sure how many players think alike, but as someone who ain't specialized in reacting and aiming, learning a map well takes some time and dedication

That's why I still prefer a pool that is including ztn, dm13, t7

It took me forever to learn t7

I know what you mean, I still suck at it

use rapha spot and rail

Yea you need to play the map hundreds of times and I'm not very keen on doing that for every new map they test out :F 1 new map / month is way too much.

Basically we need to make a list of all the pros and cons of all the new maps.

* Cure :
- (2:31:00) Dahang Interview about Cure

* Delirium :

* Fuse :
- (2:57:00) Zoot on Fuse

* Silence :

* Sinister :

are you implying zoot is a con?

implying that I was implying that Zoot is a con.

Well we know zoot isn't a pro!

Zoot is in prison? :O

silence cons: Watching agent play it

yes yes yes!
Furious - QL clasic map (not q3) - mid speed
Cure - Seems playable - mid speed
Sinister - Slow
Fuse - Slow/fast - dm6 style, aim heavy , hard out of control. Q2 players may like it.
silence - fast (replacement for aero? Not so good quality, but..)
Delirium - very unique map, something different in Q3/QL! Ofcors need to give it a BIG try! UT players would love it.
+1? t9? - t2 style map, different, no rail.. or?

ps. if we had such mappool 4 years back, we could had a lot of mors competetive top level duelers from other games , not just Q3.

Most people appear to like Silence... In my opinion since basically the other maps are sort of wishy washy, I would even say you could go...

tox,cure,silence,t7, fuse??

Like I said I'm trying to emphasize "new and good" - You don't simply make a change because you want to make a change and ruin the product.... the reason some of these maps have been around so long is because they are THAT good. We need to find more maps THAT good...

so while I know many people favor 5 new maps period, i still think you need to include New-Old like t7/tox.

Delirium needs to be in there.

Wish Schneidertron (I cant spell) would make it into ql :(

Do you have some kind of link to download this map?

Here you are :)

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1985967

Personally, I preferred the item layout of alpha 1 (got around somewhere), and I really like the introduction of the extra tele at the mega health area; I just don't like the yellow so vulnerable next to rail; put that yellow where the sg sits, and move the green armor to where the 5 hp bubbles are in the back, and put a 50 health in place of where the green armor used to be.

I still hope for it to get into ql one day :)

destrukt nice to see you posting. would you comment on your quakecon game that you lost? zero4 said in interview that your weakness is being passive and hiding too much and after that interview it seemed that quality indeed cost you the match against stermy. you had many opportunities to weaken him upon spawning but chose to avoid him. on a fast map such as toxicity that is fatal.

would you also comment on the potential of the following NA players and their style

jochs
apparition
zar

also voting to remove toxicity from the map pool. it needs a reimage such as sinister had to rebalance. possibly weapon location and the health on the map. it is much too easy to control the entire map in many games.

My weakness is that I'm not a great timer and therefore I find myself in situations where I'm either too late for an item or out of position, I am lucky I have good aim or I probably wouldn't be good at all. i am much better at it than i used to be and I'm still working on it. I'm probably better at it than your average dueler, but I'm not as good at is, as say, DaHanG.

Potential on those 3 players? No idea. They're not even close at the moment. Can they steal a map or two out of a 100 vs a good player? sure... but that doesnt speak for "potential" - At this point, jochs has been playing for _years_ and so has zar, if they were going to get to that level, it probably would have happened by now. *edit* With that said, it doesnt mean they can't re-learn and apply themselves and eventually "get it"

apparition is still young, has pretty good aim, but he doesnt understand the game yet.

Totally agree with this. Talked to ZeRo4 and he reminded me of an interview he did at ESWC 2003, where he complained about the mappool stagnating (dm6,ztn,t4). Fast forward ten years later and we are still using two of those maps. I feel like using new maps evens the field a little bit. You have certain players who just do not like to play old maps because they are so far behind, and certain players who do not want to play new maps because they do not have their advantage.
An excellent example is Dahang. When he just started in QL he was really good on t9 and t7, the new maps, and not so great on ztn, dm6 and dm13. He would lose 3-2 in BO5s back in '09 and '10 because of that. It even took him forever to really learn and understand those maps (and now he is beast on them ofcourse). My point is, using new maps levels the field, for everyone. I'm bored of playing yet another dm13 or ztn because everything is known. Every angle is there, every tactic has been used. I have played Cure maybe a 100 times (practice a lot for QCon), and I still find different ways to play it, new tactics to use, etc.
I also agree with Baksteen, it takes a LOT of games to figure out if a map is good or not. You can't just play 3 duels and say "hey this map should be in the pool". But no one is going to play a map 100 times without knowing if it's going to be in a mappool, so it is sort of a vicious cycle of not using new maps. At the end of the day, organizers should force a mappool, they have the power, because I feel most people play for competition, and if tournaments will use fuse, delirium, etc, players will too.

Anyway, some comments about the new maps, obviously I played Cure a lot and am fine with it being in the pool, although I don't think it is a GREAT map like dm13 or ztn, right now it plays fine and we'll see how it'll turn out. Fuse, Delirium and Sinister I've barely played, but from what I've seen they all look alright, and I wouldn't mind playing them if competitions will use them. Silence I've played quite a bit when I was in Europe last year and did not understand why they just took it out (was it the green color?). Anyway, that's 5 brand new maps (except Silence for Europeans), in a bo5 map pool. Want to have a 7-map pool, include two classics? Not sure, but I am excited to play some NEW maps. In fact, I played delirium a bunch today, and it plays pretty nicely. I guess what it comes down to is I love playing new maps, but only if there is an incentive.

i don't know very well the new maps but i don't get why one of the most played map can't be in the map pool
i'm talking about aerowalk
i mean, lots of quakers enjoy playing it and it's also a nice map to spec
i don't want to criticize new maps, but in my opinion aerowalk has to be in every map pool, like ztn and t7

a lot of players complained about the initial spawns and in my own opinion the map is ruined by the ql spawn system.

ztn and wmo

-ztn
-dm13
-pukka3tourney2
-cure
-sinister
-delirium
-silence

get rid of dm13 already

fucking dm13

die die die!

:D

go and tell cs player to get rid of de_train.. idiot.

they really should. inferno, too.

because small or rather tiny group of Americunts shits their pants whenever they need to play it!?I really wonder who dkt was referring to with "all"??

are you talking about dm13 now? yeah, anyway, they really need new maps in cs, too.

thunderstuck.pk3 should be totally erased from the main database.

never !

thunderstruck is THE perfect map for ca 1v1/2v2

but we need more maps from ra3, some of the ra3 maps are really really good too

You do realize CA is not Quake, right?

saying that CA isn't quake is like saying that Defrag isn't quake....

Haha, rofl.

rocket arena is even older than quake 3 arena, so...

Older than Quake shareware?

ouch gg

I agree, now is the time to do it.

I think the consensus regarding which core maps the new map pool should be built upon are:

1.Silence
2.Sinister
3.Cure
4.Delirium
5.Fuse

With this now being the new 'default' map pool there would be three variations that tournament/cup organizers could chose from:

1.BO5 map pool with the above maps
2.BO7 map pool, the above maps +2 "classic" maps which can be cycled.
3.BO5 map pool with 3 of the 5 new maps and 2 older maps replacing (the new conservative map pool option).

yes.
Now 5 standart maps should be sil, sin, cure, fuse , del. +2 new/old maps.

Was there the same problem with map rotation (in terms of adoption by players and tournaments) in the Q3 times, when map creation and distribution was free? Or has the problem started with QL?

It's always been there. Two of the most established maps in Q3-QL were made in 1996/1997 (ztn and aero) and in QL we use the 999th version of one from 1999 (dm13).

History will repeat itself with T7, now that it's been 4 years with it in every single competition but people fail to realize it's been this much.

I think you're missing the point that the lack of GOOD maps has been the issue. T7 was new, it was good, it was adopted. Same with toxicity. Now, with Cure, but I'd argue Cure is more playable than actually good, but that is to be determined.

I've ran through the maps since posting this.. Delirium looks promising, the rest are pretty meh to me, but I need to get at least 10-20 games on them before I'll formulate a real opinion.

If more people who play and/or like the game actually knew that there is a tool they can download to create Quake maps, I guess there would be a lot more new maps. Of those, some might actually be good.

actually cityy did a great job advertising it, with news-posts and articles like:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2371835/quakeli...ing-forum/
there is also a pretty obvious mapper's corner in the ql-forums.
cityy made really nice and noob friendly video tutorials (01...09) about mapping:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUooMzqSYP1Ap_K4y6qtRaVA
furthermore cityy and the mapper-gang are very patient with noob-questions on irc:
#radiant @quakenet

If id had setup a page on quakelive.com about it (with download links, etc.) or used the in-game ads to promote the mapping contest, I'm sure we'd get a lot more new maps.

The community efforts are important (it's all there is related to mapping), but are also marginal because id doesn't promote map creation as it could.

Its always been a problem. Q3 shipped with really bad maps as well and yet they were still horribly slow on the uptake.

There are probably 50+ third party maps from q3 that could be used, a similar number from q2 and probably even more for qw (the mappers were rather prolific at creating 1v1 style atrium maps). This would be of course after rejigging items for QL, possibly adding teles, etc.

Its hilarious that now, with it being hard to get a map into the game people are interested in changing stuff.

Of course UT99 was the flip side. Almost every map that shipped with it was playable - a testament to the duel ruleset, weapons and the game in general. Not every map was awesome but most were playable. I mean tempest was considered a decent duel map for most of the games life when it was pretty much trash.. but it was playable.

I would prefer what quake has had to what UT had - a smaller map list vs 20+ maps and arguments over all of them.

The question is.. what would QL/Q3 look like without ztn, what would Q2 look like without q2dm1,what would QW look like without aerowalk,what would CS look like without de_dust etcetc.

major this thread already !

come on!

I think that we need completly new 5 maps mappool, because it has not changed so long.
If it will be 7 maps mappool, noone will play new maps, because you can strike out it.
Silence Sinister Cure is not so new already)
Delirium need to be finished imho (fix upper ya)
Fuse looks like great map for duel ca and 2x2!
After a half a year we understand which map is good, and that time is enough to fix this maps and add new)

just fuckin get on with it and switch the fuckin mappool completely. pros will always be pros and that way quake live can progress. i mean it's cool to have these classic maps and smaller tournaments might still play them from time to time, but quake should evolve. if we want to have a future. those people playing it from '99.. you can't scare them away by taking ztn out of the pool! they even stayed although there was quake4!

This thread convinced me, fuck all old maps.

NEW MAPS, NEW MAPS EVERYWHERE:

Sinister (looks boss)
Cure (I like to spectate it)
Delirium
Fuse
Silence

BO7:
Furious Heights (so fucking good)
Toxicity

Notsure:
Hektik
House of Decay


DEAD TO QUAKELIVE
Aerowalk
Campgrounds
Bloodrun (I will always love you)
VerticalVengeance
Lostworld

running tuesday night quake with that exact map pool.
most of the games were very one sided. players still need to learn the new maps i guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FymnuyYpZeY
vo0 vs rey on fuse

T7 and Tox seem very boring the majority of games they have the occasional exciting game but its just not as common as it happens on lost world.

Lost World is just too good to remove it offers something unique to quake that no new map has tried to replace. It has no replacement.

T7 and Tox based on the long tourney run they have had I think 1 staying is ok but both is not needed any more.

Silence the main complaint was color scheme it seemed like it had a good start. I think it would be a good replacement for either Tox or T7.

T4 Another unique map like lost world that has no suitable replacement

Cure New map that is already tournament tested.

Hektik very exciting map with lots of action

House of Decay I don't know why this map lost touch see av3k vs cooller IEM4 for why it should come back.

Dismemberment/Battle forged also deserve rotation.

Competitors probably would not like it but Face it should have 2 map pools that rotate from week to week. It would possibly change the Semi Finals up from week to week and add new excitement.

I think that selecting the ideal map list is all about balance.

It's about balancing the needs of the top flight players, the new bloods and the spectators/shoutcasters. For the vitality of the game, you need people to be interested in watching the games. You need people to want to get into the game, and to think that they have a chance to catch up. But if you have too much churn, you can easily turn off your established 'star players' and lose some of the layers and layers of meta that exist on maps like blood run.

It's also about balance within the map list itself. I didn't make phrantic and hektik the way they are because I think all duel maps should be small and fast. I made them that way because I felt that there ought to be some small and fast maps alongside the larger, slower maps. Striking a balance between different styles of map within the list promotes a diversity in play styles, which can only make competition more interesting.

I do think it would be great to see Face It having a more active rotation, but given the time it takes to really see map strategies develop, I think it would need to be something like 'maps of the month'. Maybe that could link in with the QL standard rotation, to try to link what the higher level competition players are doing with the new blood/casual players can easily access.

Make more maps! (please)

phrantic is the best cpm map, imo.



would kill to get some more positional maps like it in cpm

Nothing will change. The top players will be top players regardless of maps. Believing new maps will give newer people a level playing field is more than likely not true. Top players will learn new maps faster and come up with better strategies quicker due to the fact they're just better than everyone else. The same people will always be the best.

This is an extreme hypothetical but you think evil would win consistently in a map pool with out a single map that has LG? Skills will remain the same but the top players could be shaken up with different map pools. k1llsen was at his absolute peak when battle forged was in pools, of course he is still a top player on any map pool. Players throw certain maps for reasons not just because they don't know they but because it doesn't suit them or how they want to play. This is why mappers need to work on making more diverse maps not trying to fit a mold. Experiment more with out rail on a map or with out lg on a map. These 2 weapons change how a map can be approached a great deal.

"you think evil would win consistently in a map pool with out a single map that has LG?"

Evil could but not everyone.

yeah. like cooller @ aerowarlk in 2005 , or cooller @ hektik? or cooller @ tox 2011?
Pros atleast are force to play new maps and train them. Not like strenx comes to sunday cups and owns everyone, becose quake is a bit like a bicycle..

It's pretty obvious cooller doesn't practice. I'm pretty sure he's more into women and living life these days than quake. He's nowhere near the same skill level he was in q3.

If someone doesn't like a particular map they're not going to be good on it, or a particular style of map.
He's played aerowalk much better in the last 2 years than he ever did in q3... but i doubt he enjoys it.

(1) Let organizers of one-time tourneys force the mappool they want. Every map has haters. Therefore, no mappool will have a perfect response.

(2) Concerning the regular sunday cups and the many-maps-problem a.k.a. old vs new problem: Create a set of 10 maps with the classics, the somewhat newer and most promising actually new maps. To the end of every month, e.g. during the last show of the month, draw 5 maps for next month's mappool. If a map was not played in the first two months of the season, it is forced for the third month (Maybe even the other way around, so a map cannot be played three months in a row). This gives some months a pretty much all-new-pool whilst keeping the all-times iconic classics.
Giving it this twist of luck would hopefully decrease the level of ferocity in these discussions and conveniently make for quite an event every month (I am sure that the FACEIT production can milk this nicely).
For the finale battle at the end of the season: Contact the 8 players that qualified and let everyone vote for the 5 maps respectively. Those maps with the most votes/highest votes (depending on how exactly the voting system is planned out) will be played.
Such a set of 10 maps could look like this: hub, ztn, dm13, tox and t7 for the classics (tox is not exactly new and t7 by now almost feels as oldschool as the others). As for newer or even very new maps, for example take in Sinister, Silence, Cure, Fuse and Delirium. I personally would like to see dm6 and I personally do not really like Fuse... And for sure such a compromise would get its own share of hate... But I think it is the closest we can get to playing the new maps while not forcing out the most played and generally liked, iconic classics.
Alternatively to a monthly draw, they could do that at the end of every show for the next week (again with restrictions like not three times in a row or smth).

tl;dr ... Now pour your hate on my post, it will only make me stronger!

P.S.: I have way too much time at work :P

Sinister feels amazing... it seems really big, but its not... future classic map imo

I'm hardly a duel specialist, but from someone who's spectated a shed load of lans and online comps over the years, a really nice fresh map pool would be:

BO5:
Sinister
Cure
Delirium
Fuse
Silence

BO7:
Furious Heights
House of Decay

You can't drop FH because it is the only map new in QL that has proven to be a real gem. And I never understood why they removed HD in the first place - it gave some really exciting matches... (and it would replace Lost World as the non rail map).

If over time some of the BO5 maps don't seem good enough then replace them with NEW maps. In the mean time they should be played until we know them well enough to decide.

well maybe if most of the semi pro and pro players would not attend 3 faceit sunday duel cups in a row, and would always state in the news section on ESR about each faceit tourney that they want the maps changed, plus they would do so for dream hack winter after the maps get announced, the map pool would change.

But the reality, most pros or semipros are not so much into the change since it would make them possibly lose more, plus they are lazy to comment in news post on ESR.

Just by quickly running over this thread, notable players who cared:

destrukt
voo
guard
baksteen
twister

So little, map pool change will go away like this thread never existed :). gl with the change

Well that's a good ratio considering not many top players ever give their opinion about anything on Esr. Who's missing from the active ones? demon, fraze... nobody else comes to my mind right now. (Sorry to those I forget!)

A few map changes is ok.. but not drastic in with 2 or more new maps at once. For example imo the DHW map pool should consist of 4-1 or 5-2 if its a 5 map pool or a 7 map pool, when there is money @ stake u dont want it to be a map pool like fuse sinister cure silence battelforged or somehting bad like that :P

Thanks for your input.

I came up with these polls, if people would like to participate :

http://strawpoll.me/385860
http://strawpoll.me/385861

agree with you dkt, except that tox needs to go

if you ask me yes, totally new maps in map pool is long overdue

this should've continued after t7, t9 and bf began to be played (not saying that they were all as good as t7, but some of them didn't even got a chance for improvement changes)

sinister from the newest maps has the most potential for sure, even tho i would change some stuff on it in which i'm not going to go in right now

cure is also very descent, but damn city your colors choices sometimes ruin the visibility, and also those damn huge bright white windows, just look what happened to silence, and mostly is cause of the color choices

i dunno about you guys, but i think we need a new map that doesn't have one of the main weapons (rocket, rail, lg) probably can't leave rocket launcher, but at least some map without lg or without rail, like back in the day there was t4 and t2, t9 also till 2010ish? and then and now dm13, cause i think i ads variety and different tactics to a map

so for me now a totally new, and by new not necessarily meaning brand new maps, but maybe some older that weren't played in a long time would be:

sinister, cure, battleforged, trinity and silence

Trinity?

yes, it was played on qcon 2009

Yes. But I thought everyone agreed it was a terrible duel map.

it's way better than tox imo

New maps bringing viewers in:
As someone who rarely plays ql but still likes to watch tournaments I can say that I am not interested in seeing top players play on maps I have never seen before because it is not possible to follow the game like it is on an old standard map.
Almost everyone who has played quake in qw, q3, ql has some idea how to play aero or ztn and can therefor decipher what is going on in a match.
Additionally I'd rather see a game high skilled game on a map that both players know in and out then on a map they may have played only 100 times.

Another problem is versatility. In that regard the 2008 ESWC map pool was one of the best ever: dm6, ztn, nodm9 (modern version of dm13 for those who didn't play q3), hub, t4. All maps are unique and that makes a good map pool imo.

Same goes actually for tb5 in qw, unique and interesting maps: dm2/4/6, aero, ztn. The dm* maps may look weird to the modern OMG-balance-quaker but be assured they are excellent (but very hard to play) duel maps.

Having 3 small/fast maps like hub, tox, hektic for example (or 3 slow ones) is boring. As it is now, allmost all newer maps are: all weapons, 1 MH, 1 RA, 1-2 YA and some amount of shards/GA, 2-1/2 rooms, zzzzz.

If you really want to get rid of all old ones, t7 could replace ztn, tox/hektik in for hub, t9 in for t4 (different map but very unique too).
For dm13 there seems to be no current replacement, dm6 too.
One could throw t6 in but it is not new, rather rarely played.

So, if new maps: quality > quantity, and 1 at a time.

I would like to see:
Aerowalk
Cure
T7
Silence
ztn

Sinister seams to bee a quite good map to now when its re dun. That could replace silence perhaps.

But please remove tox! Hate it!

Part of the problem stems from this.

ztn
t7
dm13

aero
tox
hektik

+1

Now to pick maps?

toss toss pick pick toss toss decider

Some players will prefer the first batch and some will prefer the second batch. However with 5/7 maps there will always be an imbalance in slow/fast maps.

I like the posts in this thread that are not listing "fast" maps - I am actually surprised how many there are.

Maybe we just need to bite the bullet and say that aero/tox/hektik do not really demonstrate the type of quake we want to be associated with duelling - and then work on a map pool without this style of map. It seems that lots of people posting in this thread want that..?

The same for 5/7 map pools with only tox as the fast map - barring finals that will get dropped by anyone not into that style of map. It needs to either be a very even split (4/6 map pool, coin toss to decide something?) or only one style of map.