Well, for starters there is no clientside hit detection in ql.
What there is though, is server side lag reconcilliation.

In short, the server compares your shots to the enemies position when you fired and calculates if you hit or not.

What i gathered from reading and talking to weird is that he wants to remove reconcillation and change the netcode instead.
Additionally he suggested a clientside prediction beep, which tbh didnt make sense to me. :)

What the difference in q3 and ql netcode is?
No idea as we dont have the sourcecode to the QL client to accurately be able to compare them.
Perhaps someone does though?

What i personally have observed is that QL seems to suffer alot more from sideeffects then any other game i have tried. (warsow,nexuiz/xonotic,alienarena,cs, q3cpma etc)
And similarly suffers from the same issues that F.E.A.R on consoles does.


As for LG being more prevelent in ql it was quite a bit worse in cpma. If i remember correctly it did a bit more dmg then the QL one.



correct me if im wrong.

ok, thx for the reply. Just got a few more questions. The smoothing effect people talking about for warpy players is xerp am i correct? Also the document in cpma says laghax is a combination of 50ms hack and adaptive prediction. Do we have laghax in ql or only the 50ms hack part? Or will we never know because we don't have the source code?

Neither CPMA nor QL have client-side hit detection. Both have server-side reconciliation.

and both are mostly (?) coded by arcon?

arQon

I doubt we'll get an awnser to that.

he did work on ql in the early stages and i don't see any other reason besides getting his netcode to have him on the team...

then why supposedly is it different from the almighty cpma/

its not as smooth as cpma.. maybe its different engine??

no idea... could be that the game runs through a browser instead of it being an .exe

should have stated that in my initial post, thought it was pretty obvious.

While your reading here, what is the difference between ioquake netcode and ql?

Have you guys made any changes to the way the game handles packets whatsoever?

correct me if im wrong. OK :D

I would like some consistency in the netcode.
And imo the best way to do that is to have both clients predict where the enemy will go (either by letting the computer do this (cpma) or by letting the player do this (osp)).

Personally I would really like to have an autotimenudge which can be set relative to your ping. But this wouldn't make any sense as long as there is server side reconcilliation (as there is no benefit for the player to use autotn).


To get back on the hitbeep part...
You can make the current(!) netcode more sane by including predicted hitbeeps (as an optional setting). Because nowadays the hitbeep takes way too long to play and you never get to "feel" where the hitbox is at because the place where you hit him is off by (half your ping) compared to where he & your mouse are when the hitbeep plays. Resulting in this "floating hitbox feeling" (at least to me).

ye, give us cg_clienthitbeep 1 plz.

sometimes i turn the LG hitbeep off for a while cause it gets distracing at certain pings :F

only way i can see the client predict where the players are going is to have the model adjust itself to where the hitbox is going, the problem with that is that the model would be jerking around randomly if any packetloss or inconcistency is introduced.

The same would affect a prediction beep.


But, we have no way of testing this cause we have nothing to compare it too. all we need is a modified version of q3 and some people to test it out.

Anyone up to the task?

well I believe (not entirely sure because I never seen the code) that "only way i can see the client predict where the players are going is to have the model adjust itself to where the hitbox is going" is you trying to word what 'xerp' does.
This comming just from the lerp function/wording in q3 which interpolates client states between valid snapshots. It would make sense that 'xerp' stands for the same but extrapolated between a valid frame and a 'predicted frame'.


"the problem with that is that the model would be jerking around randomly if any packetloss or inconcistency is introduced." This is always a problem regardless of any type of implementation of netcode. (well you can implement something which plays similar to cg_nopredict but nobody would like that)
However if your opponent has packetloss / inconsistency in the connection with the netcode I envision both players have a somewhat equal negative gaming experience (the warping guy will have slightly more issues given that both upload and download are laggy). And thus nobody will prefer to play with packetloss than without (at least in all modes except for ctf while carrying the nmy flag).
This sadly nowadays is not the case. And is my main moral objection to the current netcode.

"The same would affect a prediction beep." obviously true. All modes of "prediction" have an error attributed to them.
Just like reconcilliation leads to shots which seem to hit you behind walls etc.


I'm not saying that this choice for netcode (the implemented QL netcode) is wrong by definition but that it is not really consistent with itself (something which will be partially solved with predicted hitbeeps).

In my eyes reconcilliation is fine as it has been put to good use in several other games with the sideeffects of ql reconcilliation being put to a minimum.

One reason i dislike the idea of your hitbeeps idea is the fact you tradeoff reliable damage information and exchanging it with an unreliable one just to get a "faster" response.

The closest i can point you at that shows how bad of an idea is CS:GO. They were using predicted hit sparks and what not and were producing false hits more then real ones.

Other then that, people having the freedome to tinker with settings and network conditions is one factor that will forever be a problem when trying to have the game fair for everyone.
Though counter measures could be put into place where they turn off reconcilliation/prediction if packetloss and ping variances are too big.

Best example i could think off would be how starcraft handles laggers. Pause the game, if they keep laggin... boot them out of the game

"In my eyes reconcilliation is fine as it has been put to good use in several other games with the sideeffects of ql reconcilliation being put to a minimum." <-- I agree.
It's not a terrible idea to have this and in most of those games it does make the game more fair.
There are issues with it in quake though which I would much rather not have. Which mainly occur because fights are longer than in other games and lg does consistent damage over an extended period of time.

"One reason i dislike the idea of your hitbeeps idea is the fact you tradeoff reliable damage information and exchanging it with an unreliable one just to get a "faster" response." <-- well then don't use predictHitbeep 1 ;). Speaking from my own experience my aim is much more closely related to hearing than I ever thought it was. After realizing how this unlagged effected the game I put hitbeeps off on lg for a while and my % increased quite dramatically (from crap 28-32% to decent 34 - 38%). But not having a hitbeep is anoying as I started to misscount the nmy health.
I would say that a predicted hitbeep would work fine (on the current netcode I would rather have a different netcode than this... although predicted hitbeeps can also be in there as the idea of it makes sense).


"Other then that, people having the freedome to tinker with settings and network conditions is one factor that will forever be a problem when trying to have the game fair for everyone.
Though counter measures could be put into place where they turn off reconcilliation/prediction if packetloss and ping variances are too big." <-- I agree although the turn off of reconcilliation would make the game feel extremely strange for them (when it turns off). So I would advise against such a plan.



"Best example i could think off would be how starcraft handles laggers. Pause the game, if they keep laggin... boot them out of the game" <-- this doesn't really work in a game like quake because it's too fast. If you pause the game at random times then your movement will suffer (as you misstime the next jump or fail to gain the right speed in a jump). As well as it being horrible for timing by feeling ;).

Imo predictbeep would make little to no difference. We aim with our eyes, not our ears The only advantage hitbeep has is it can teach us how to aim online (because netcode ain't perfect so it's not as simple as look at model amd shoot) but this advantage is still very small. I know your probably going to disagree with that last statement but i find no difference in accuracy with lg with hitbeep and without.
So to summarize what i'm trying to say is predictbeep would teach us how to aim better online but it will produce false beeps and because the advantages of hitbeep is so small i think more people would be upset about the false beeps it creates.

Also have you tried tinkering with s_premixstep? It lowers the time it takes to produce the hitbeep sound and the lowest i could get it was 0.6. For some reason i could go lower with windows 7 than windows xp. Also another thing you could do is set cg_hitbeep to 1. Lorfa did some tests a while back and while it wasn't 100% conclusive the tests showed that the sound comes out quicker than cg_hitbeep 2. Does seem to make sense considering hitbeep 2 has that aftersound which could cause a delay. Could lorfa chime in on this? was the test ever finished?

The idea was that sounds would come out quicker with hitbeep 1, since they don't have to consider damage information.

If that's the case then it would be better for weapons other than the SG/GL/RL/BFG/PM since these have variable damage info that you would lose with hb1.

Probably this is just placebo, or the effect is negligible if it exists.

The tests are a nightmare to run and aren't terribly conclusive at their best.

How far you can move s_mixPreStep also depends on s_mixahead. If you have mixahead lowered way down, like as far as you can go before getting static/repeating sounds, then you can barely move prestep a few points before you get cut off sounds.

Er, I think you meant mixahead there, and not 0.6, but 0.06, as the default prestep is 0.05 and lowering it would result in "faster" sounds theoretically not raising it.

I suspect that lowering either value doesn't result in sounds being actually played sooner, and s_show + con_timestamps shows no change.

well your ears tell you if what you saw created a hit.... it's really hard to combine a sound with something that happened +/- 40ms ago (on ping 40) as a lot of movement can take place in 40ms.

I really felt as though hitboxes were floating around players for a while because when my lg wasn't on the nmy I still heard hitbeeps.
The time between the shot and the confirmation is very long.

Yes I've tried to tinker a bit with the sound settings but the largest part of the hitbeep is the ping.

Also I don't mind people not using a cvar..... And btw you can also have a predicted beep and an official hitbeep (just give them different sounds and add them to create a hitbeep (will feel a bit strange at the start though :p).)

Why not play as zsx without hitbeep for lg?

I've done that for a while but my estimation of the nmy health gets worse when I do that.... which in "close games" hurts my decision making more than that the gained aim helps me infight.

btw, I came to the same conclusion when I tried it while ago for a short time. :)

out of interest - while i ping anywhere between 12 - 30 depending on how my isp has my interleaving set (ive tried both as a method to correct the issues i find playing ql these days) - it often feels like im playing on 100+....

this is worse vs certain opponents and while on a day where ql seems to be behaving, im hitting 45 lg (i average over 40 in ql and easily 40+ in cpma back in the day), on another day or vs certain opponents im struggling for 30+ which is a joke.

i often use the sound as way of tracking my lg and would suggest i use sound more than i should - do you have any explanation why this might be - and does the opponents connection affect what i hear?

"does the opponents connection affect what i hear?" -> no.

"i often use the sound as way of tracking my lg and would suggest i use sound more than i should - do you have any explanation why this might be -" -> I also use sound because it is the "confirmation". In QL however it's "bad to base aim on sound" as the actual shot and the hitsound are too far appart. (imo any sane person should use the confirmation to learn where to aim... but in ql that's as usefull as trying to convert the pope to atheism.)

"it often feels like im playing on 100+...." -> I wouldn't know why that is the case.

"What i gathered from reading and talking to weird is that he wants to remove reconcillation and change the netcode instead.
Additionally he suggested a clientside prediction beep, which tbh didnt make sense to me. :)"

in short weird wants the old osp "20-30 pingers rape 50-60 pingers" rule back, guess what he pings btw? clientside prediction beep is probably cosmetic.

I would really dislike that.
I am one of those people who actually did play q3 on a ping > 300 for about a year. Then on a ping of around 80 for another year. And then only got to a "decent" ping of 30 - 40.

Sure there will be some minor disadvantages to playing on a high ping. But that is because it's physically impossible to not have any disadvantage anywhere when dealing with different latencies.
Nowadays the disadvantage comes mainly for the guy who has good i-net.... which is why you see all these crap connections win zotac's.

"minor disadvantages to playing on a high ping"

I always have trouble continue reading your posts when you say such stuff.

how come?

Isn't it logical that if your hardware sucks you have less fps?
It's the same argument as when your connection sucks you get updates slightly later.

You don't want to have a situation where having a bad connection improves your chances of winning because then everyone will get a bad connection (except for me ofcourse) and the overall gaming experience will suffer a lot.

you don't understand what I mean again. with "minor disadvantages to playing on a high ping" you are implying that either now or with the changes you envision that there will be a minor disadvantage to playing with high ping, which is utter bs.

always boiling down to you trying to point out the miniscule advantages (if any at all) to playing with high ping and disregarding nearly all disadvantages to give the impression low ping gets screwed over, even taking it to the point where you claim high pingers win over low pingers! ie: "which is why you see all these crap connections win zotac's. "

.....

I do understand what you mean.

How can you then make a system where having a ping 20 is the same(!) as having ping 60?
Someone has to have a negative effect on their side. It is IMPOSSIBLE for both clients (one on ping 20 and one on ping 60) to have the exact same gaming experience.

If you do know a way... then go collect your nobel prize.
If you don't know any way but disagree that: an overall bad but "well adjusted to his own ping" player can beat an overall good player. Then you're imho wrong. (you can disagree on this but there are no real things you can say to me that will change my view on this)
If you don't know any way but agree to the above... then force id to fix the netcode.

(So you've never had a game where you lost to someone who you "just couldn't hit"?)

(So you've never had a game where you lost to someone who you "just couldn't hit"?)

the subject was never about warpers, ofc you can lose to a warping player regardless of what they ping.

the subject is about stable 60 ping player (poni) vs a 25 pinger (you) and how they can compete with each other.

you're giving names.... I don't want to attribute to that.

But even on non warping high pings there is a large advantage to playing overly agressive compared to playing a well balanced game.

when equality is technically impossible.... shouldn't you favor the "good connection" over the "bad connection"?
I want to have the gaming experience to be as close to eachother as possible (for a good connection and a bad one).

Not do like RL / Plasma are completely useless when you get above ping 60. And also not where LG becomes bs overpowered when on an unstable ping 50.

who the hell favors a bad connection over a good connection, EVER?

I wouldn't want to give their names but like... take any zotac cup from the past months and see who gets top16 in those.
At least half of them play on a shit connection and "give off on it" but when they play on a decent connection they wouldn't be anywhere near the top16.

I seriously doubt that you mean warping when you say shit connection and that you just mean how they ping 50-60 and that they are abusing this somehow to beat down poor 30 pingers.

I wouldn't want to put it that way but it is the case that in most fights the agressive player on a high ping (even stable pings up till like 70) has an advantage.
Defensive play is completely retarded on ping 60 unless ofcourse you don't have an lg or are at such a great stack disadvantage that there is no other option than to not attack for a little while (which imo is not "playing defensive" as your only objective is to maximize the agression).

"I wouldn't want to put it that way but it is the case that in most fights the agressive player on a high ping (even stable pings up till like 70) has an advantage."

here is where you get incoherent as usual. complete fabrication conspiracy theory even...

makes me imagine some high ping guy rushing an equally stacked low pinger who is in a defensive position and magically not getting hit by the spam rockets, lol sure.

Have you watched any (online) game at all lately?

plenty, none of em had warping people.

you mean like poni?

you think poni warps? he does not.

now we're getting at least to some factual differences.
Shame that it's about a person though :(

But yes he warps and in general is one of the many players who "altered their style of play to fit their connection".
I don't want to use that as a disqualification of a single person though.... Nor of their idea of playing... it's a disqualification of the netcode that they believe their playstyle is correct.

"But yes he warps and in general is one of the many players who "altered their style of play to fit their connection"."


wrong. he does not warp. stable 60 ish connection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxottica

funny, doesn't change the fact that he is a non warping "high" pinger.

http://www.framesdirect.com/men/prescription-eyeglasses.aspx ?

I have glasses.... and they help.

I cannot see how anyone can say that poni doesn't warp....

you are the first to make the claim it seems so.. maybe start checking with that problem?

You're one of the first persons (if not the first O_o) I ever heard saying that he doesn't warp.

and I talked to A LOT of players on the topic.

meh idle talk, if there was any issue like you claimed there would be a thread here about it at least.

you really think so?
After people crusify me for explaining the netcode... you think anyone will speak out on specific cases?

They crucify you because you are wrong about the netcode, on top of that you warp around the facts to make your case which makes you löse even more credibility, especially in the eyes of hpb's like me who you basically insult doing so

I don't try to insult any hpb.... if you feel insulted because of anything I said then I'm sorry.

Why do you think that I'm wrong about the netcode?
Which facts did I "warp" (?) to make my case?

You claim that hpb's have some sort of dodging aadvantage, and even though this can be only true for ppl who warp you categorize everybody like that because it is convenient for your argument. You also work up all the small things that could in theory helpm a hpb and completely disregard the huge aiming disadvantage (rl pg especially), this eºective method is insulting to our intelligence imo

Typing with atablet is fking annoying

I claim that?

trying to be sane while being drunk is fking annoying.

Just leave a comment and I'll reply after I sober up ;p

yes what you say comes down to that, I read enough of your posts about it.

I'm more saying that the agressive party can't really dodge (as his movement is dominated by moving into a room and getting shots onto the opponent). And when the average ping is high it gets harder and harder (for both players) to dodge.
So given that the defensive player wants to use his advantage of being defensive and dodge some initial damage. He will have more trouble doing so vs a hpb than vs a lpb. (even if I would be a hpb it would be easier for me to dodge stuff vs a lpb than vs another hpb)

So the defensive playstyle gets harder when the average ping in a game increases.
I dislike that the prefered playstyle is changed (so much) by pings. In quake3 the playstyle the choices / playstyle remained almost the same as pings increased/decreased.
Although in osp whenever you pinged above 50 and had to play vs someone who pinged 20 or less you would have to play somewhat less reliant upon lg.

Maybe comment #182 is more clear than this one.

Look dude, warp and high ping are two different things. You can also have low ping and warp like crazy, again they aren't the same thing.

Claiming that warping gives you a certain advantage in QL is something you can honestly make a fair argument for and I'll even agree with you and probably so will the majority of the quake community and yes, it wasn't the same case (at least not to the same degree) in neither OSP nor CPMA, the latter of which was actually more high ping friendly and 'more anti-lagged' then QL is.

Now claiming that high ping in itself is overall advantageous in QL specifically when playing an aggressive style is just retarded, sorry.

There is a reason that when picking servers players favor the server locations to where they ping the lowest, if your 'HPB advantage' theory was correct then we wouldn't see all these arguments regarding server location (and no, no one ever argues for a server to which they ping higher, not even poni or evil). Secondly while the netcode does have its share of problems, especially regarding to how in handle unstable connections and warping, it's not so ass backwards that additional latency actually aids in aiming, sorry.

I really should stop explaining myself over and over and over again to people who DO NOT READ MY POSTS.

So this is it.... just go and read my netcode comparison and stop thinking I'm some retard while you're agreeing with pretty much everything I say. But you're not reading what I say because you're too busy thinking I'm wrong.

I've read your netcode comparison thread, even discussed a bit about netcode with you there. Still don't understand the pictures though =(.

Look dude nothing against you personally, but your blaming the netcode for your 'lack of performance' online and claim that it favors high ping players, yet I remember you barely beating luke_ie during DH (think you won by like 1 frag in the end) and you defiantly weren't playing like a top4 player on lan, or any better than you usually do online.

As a someone who pings 70 best case scenario, and someone who has to struggle with high ping every time i play there is just something enraging about reading your posts about how its actually an advantage; again it's my fault that I let your comments get to me and you are entitled to think and voice whatever opinion you might have. But a lot of players struggle in regards to their ping much more so then you do every time they play and no one else makes a big fuss about it and diffidently doesn't go to the length you have to prove that high ping is actually an advantage that HPB can abuse to play some uber offensive gamestyle.

I don't think your an idiot at all, and I wish more people would be open to discussing making potential changes to the netcode in the future, but it seems to me like your only worried about how any sort of anti-lag feature might hurt players like yourself who are privileged enough to play with low ping (not to mention you can obviously play with high ping too but of course you won't go so low as to abuse it) and never seem to go beyond this bigger picture which you have painted yourself that high pingers ruin your QL gaming experience.
I'm sry if I came off as rude or anything and i sincerely believe you are a good guy and wish you nothing but the best, but your lack of understanding for HPB just sometimes gets under my skin.

nah you're not being rude....
I'm just getting anoyed that so many people actually *feel* that the netcode is screwed exactly in the way as I tell them it factually is....
But they still disagree with me because.... well hey it's weird let's disagree....

After seeing nadal pwn djokovic I'm somewhat ready to comment :D.

People should understand that I'm just being fair in what I'm proposing and fair in my explanation of what's currently being used.
I mean I can't "fix all networking issues" as I can't suddenly increase the speed of light.

But the thing I dislike is that I am capable of doing more (silly) agressive actions with instant hit weapons on a high ping than low ping.

You can actually, somewhat (valid untill either individual player exceeds ping 80), make a scale where you add both players pings and they add up to how much random lg agression you should use in a game.
(aka Agression with instant hit: High ping vs High ping > High ping vs Low ping > Low vs Low (small side note for high ping vs low ping the high pinging player is encouraged/rewarded more to play agressive than the low ping player)).

I much more favor a netcode where High ping vs High ping leads to the players making the same decisions (equal agression) as Low ping vs Low ping.
Ofcourse the "low ping guys" can execute their actions better (in general) due to their connection. So they will be favored in a game where high ping vs low ping happens.
But in this case I'm perfectly happy to play you in a ping 80 vs ping 80 game. Because the game itself (or rather the correct decisions) is the same.

With the current netcode the game on ping 80 vs 80 would be fubar agressive while on ping 10 vs 10 it would be much more strategical.

Have you? It's not called zotac anymore ;)

take any zotac cup from the past months

Been out of the loop for quite a while, haven't ya?

let's faceit I'm not really good with names :D

Im the wrong person to answer that question, which is why i left it out.

There should be documentation or atleast a couple of forum posts explaining what xerp and laghax does.

The netcode of QL is fine and one of the last things they should worry about fixing, its not perfect but its far from being broken. The way to fix LG being too strong is to fix rocket physics they are so broken in QL its random its near impossible to juggle a LG user and rocket is the most affected weapon by any thing above 50 ping. Rockets at 30 ping and Rockets at 50 ping are like playing an entirely different game. They need to take OSP rocket physics and maybe put in a built in timenudge (some way of making the projectile travel faster) on rocket so its not so bad with bad ping. I'm pretty sure CPMA had something that made rockets nice even with high ping too. Maybe it was something as simple as just making rocket projectile speed higher.

Oh man, I red like 10 your post in different treaths and they all so fuccccing wrong :)))

well having a flat change to speed would probably be dumb but it could be something that adjusts to your ping.

also you can not disagree rocket physics in QL are broken direct hits sending people flying straight up in the air but splash at feet doing nothing not to mention the inconsistent damage.

no

Rockets are already very fast in QL, you can't make them faster or it will break the game.

Check out Warsow for an example of too-fast rockets with your built-in ping compensation idea to see how stupid it is.

With low ping rockets are fine with any thing above 50 ping rockets are not fine in Quake Live I can practically outrun my own rockets. Rockets were still good even on 100 ping in CPMA.

It basically feels like OSP with any thing above 30 ping but in the case of QL every weapon but RL has lag compensation. Everyone with high ping uses hit scan weapons. OSP was more balanced because you could still rely on rocket juggling just by getting used to high ping rockets, in Quake Live you have to rely on luck to get a person in the air with a rocket.

Agent is like the only top level dueler with over 40 percent RL use and RL has utility use like spam and movement. This is why I bet agent would surprise a lot of people on lan his rockets would destroy people, a big reason Rapha,Cypher are so much better on lan too, lan ping rockets. Projectile based players are at a disadvantage with high ping in QL.

Vo0,Chance,DKT,czm RL use is also high more players who are like night and day on lan vs online.

If they can't make all weapons affected the same by lag compensation like CPMA did they should remove all lag compensation.

QL is balanced on lan online it is not it favors hit scan players. Which isn't a problem really I just want working rocket physics.

QL is balanced on lan.

I disagree.

As for the rest, I think it's not a contribution to copypaste things from this site, from streams and what's common knowledge. It's worse when those quotes are twisted to fit your point, which is what you did on that post. The same happens in streams, the google machine without actual knowledge or own opinion.

are you mad about something? no clue who you are and you seem to be stalking me. you just say you disagree and have no argument and you are calling me the one with out knowledge or opinion,I'm not sure if you are legit retarded or attempting some kind of troll lmao. How is QL not balanced on lan master 1800 elo dueler,try to explain your self instead of being brainless.

As Guard posted, with a 34% plus rate, I'm not the only one that thinks what I posted.

It's the first time I refer to you as well. It isn't stalking at all, but you are spreading misinformation like crazy on this site and on streams, which is supported with the method I exposed on the previous post. I'm not even sure if you are another cooloutac clone or not.

If you bring qlranks here...which is your account?

I copy paste every thing from the website but every thing he read that I posted is wrong? OK if this is a troll you really got me because I think you are legit retarded.

It is. What you are doing is distorting quotes.

#129 of this thread isn't that bad, but the posts Guard referred to are.

Good TROLL BRO

If you bring qlranks here...which is your account?

Don't dodge questions BRO.

I don't even have a QL account any more BRO I said your 1800 ELO was AWESOME you probably beat Cypher on the daily

qlranks saves those stats no matter if your QL account is deleted because of inactivity. So, which was your latest QL account?

Also, why are you discussing about something you don't do or play?

http://qlranks.com/duel/player/kud

This kud account hardly has any duel game and all of them are against players that have absolutely 0 duel experience, low accuracies too.

So it's the same question as before: why are you discussing about something you don't do or play? No, actually the question is now this: Why are you discussing about something you have never, ever played?

That is the other half why why your opinions are wrong. If it isn't clear by now, the first is your opinions aren't yours but distorted copypastes.

why are you talking like your 1800 elo makes you special? I'm not pro but I'd wreck your shit in Quake kid. I can tell because you have nearly a month played since 2011 and you still are bad.

When did I say that? Again, you are distorting other people's words.

And stop dodging the questions. Why are you so opinionated on something you have absolutely 0 experience on and you don't currently do?

should have ended the troll while it was good now its just stupid

I am always going to have an opinion on a game I was playing while you were still in diapers and sucking on your moms tit.

Your account states otherwise, both in playing time and skill wise.

What experience has told me over the years is that wisdom doesn't come with age. If anything old retards tend to be more stupid than the newest generations of retards.

Anyway, that's a separate topic. The main issue is everything you wrote about in the last few days, after a long time of inactivity, were wrong facts and opinions using quotes that you don't understand (the google generation), hence why using other people's thoughts in a distorted way whether intentionally or unintentionally. In other words, "Oh man, I red like 10 your post in different treaths and they all so fuccccing wrong :))) "

Just go back to the official forum.

I already admitted I could never be near your level you are like mega pro every thing you say is right no one can disagree with you you invented quake. Plz give me some opinions to copy paste in the future.

PS do you give lessons?

This has nothing to do with my skill level, or lack of. Actually it isn't a confrontation between people but of ideas. Problem is you started making it that way after running out of arguments, including the replied to post.

Anyone can have an opinion.....as long as he plays/played the game and is his own opinion. In a negative manner, what shouldn't be done is having an opinion about everything and voicing others as personal, otherwise it's doomed to fail. That's the reason everything you have written on this site is wrong.

Preventions are people will dislike an always wrong person and authority does matter, which is what happened here and the reason why I think somebody with.no duel experience and zero skill shouldn't be talking big about duel and what changes the game should go through.

You are basically the internet police and go around critiquing everyones opinion, I got you now well that was a great save give your self a big pat on the back you set me straight. What is duel any way some new game type that was added in quake live and never existed in quake 3? must be, thanks for the tips!

About the first and second sentences: Okay...I guess....?

On the second regard, (third and onwards), such low skill level in QL and such wrong opinions show there's no way you played back in q3 or earlier, let alone q3 duel or duel in any other game. It's clear as water for anyone really.

this is comical saving this post you came to the conclusion I've never played quake 3 based on 7 duel games on ql ranks? I know now for sure you are just butt hurt. in which case go cry a river nub.

Okay...I guess....?

how do you even know what guard is referring too? you had me going now its just too obvious and becoming a try hard troll.

http://esreality.net/?a=users&user_id=8144

Those are your latest posts on this site, which I happened to read before Guard's, and he wrote "Oh man, I red like 10 your post in different treaths and they all so fuccccing wrong :))) ", which is a shared opinion among some users of this site.

guard reacted negatively to me agreeing with someone about his wallhacking? what a shocker.

That isn't the only post (the link is on #145) and he isn't the only user.

http://esreality.net/?a=judgements&post_id=2476580

Same on QL streams.

weird wrote an article with really crappy images about this.

just search esr

e: im in a good mood today: http://www.esreality.com/post/2313076/netcode...p-cpma-ql/

H I T S U
I
T
S
U

yes, thats me, nice to meet you

1 H V E
H
V
E

i was merely stating my recognition of your kindness. it was very kind to dig up that link for us =]

awwww you don't like my images? :(((((

no :D

go pracc paint skills :D

awwww ://///

Ah well it's complicated to draw :(

i played on a cracked server once in ql, and i realised that ql has good netcode, but the servers are pure shit. i specially love the 386 powered servers in poland.

inb4 this becomes a Weird thread. Im suprised hes not here alrdy.

Suddenly a wild Weird appears!!

MWRHAAHHAAAHAHAHHHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAAHHAHAHAHA

:D

god damnit. :<

well hes got some knowledge about this shit.

and he's a lg whore

His knowledge is making him dumber if you ask me. Letting """"""netcode""""" be a valid reason to stop playing while no one else complains about it pretty much.

Well I just dislike that I have to alter my game to fit with my opponents ping. As he can suddenly do somethings which shouldn't be possible on low ping and he suddenly cannot do other things which are possible on low ping.

So playing vs a ping 50 guy is very different from playing vs a ping 10 guy. And I want "my ingame experience" to be as equal as possible regardless of my opponents / my own ping.

So because of the fact that there is literally nothing you can do about some circumstances (I do not mean that you don't have a viable fix for the netcode(Cause who knows, you might have one), I mean that ID just doesnt give a fuck/or just doesnt want to change it or be it any other case) you refuse to play?

Why? Everyone else does, and they do not complain. The thing about ping is that it will never ever be equal, however you approach it. I palyed some CPMA recently, and at some points lg went literally through my opponent, so CPMA's netcode isnt all perfect aswell. Some invisible rails happen and so on.

The way I see it, QL has better netcode for the majority of people, because lets facey - its 2013. Everyone has a decent enough connection.


I just dont get it, you claim to be so god (top4 @lan), yet you just ramble about how you can't play at all. meh.

I do have a viable fix for the netcode which is easy to implement even. But their refusal/inability to fix it is not why I "refuse to play".

I actually don't "refuse to play" as I still occasionally join servers and play around a bit (not really as good as I used to be though... but I could get close to that form fairly fast if it would be needed).

It is just that when I "was good" (according to myself) I felt that I got caught in "traps" which only work because it's online play rather than that it is the correct play.
For instance I had a practise game vs strenx on dm6 where I made all the right calls but I lost because from the spawn he took lg and raged into the ra room and did like 250dmg vs me having a normal defensive. On lan it's like a free extra kill... online it became a gamble. He believed this is a "correct play"... which might be why he's a monster online.

So in short I felt that in order to win online I had to make different decisions than to win on lan. Which I refuse to do.
Other players however do this more and more (making the right "online call" which is fubar on lan). And because they do this I don't enjoy competing in online tournaments anymore.
There are even people out there whos playstyle is completely linked with their connection (aka on any other kind of connection they would loose badly but on theirs they will win). I don't want to adjust to that.... I have had games in which I played to counter their idiotic idea of what quake is.... and I have beaten them as well.... but I don't enjoy it.

I've always played because I liked to play... never to "become the best". I simply stopped enjoying what I needed to do to win... so I haven't competed in a while.

btw to beat people to an obvious reply ;)

On other netcodes you also need to make "different decisions" online than on lan. But it shouldn't be that you gain options in some field by having some connection.
A bad connection should be a hindrance not a free pass to +forward lg.

Well, you were talking about strenx and LG, which go along very nicely. And you ahve to understand that the connection issues you just talked about do not dictate the way you should play. Being outdamaged doesnt mean that its because he had higher/lower/unstable/potat ping. It just sometimes comes as an element of surprise and so on.

And even sometimes when you think that the decisions you make are the best( or the optimal ones) you are not necesarilly correct because you might think so, but you need someone else to prove you wrong about that decision.

And even moreso, according to you, if you make optimal decisions you should win all the games, but even rapha gets stomped by aim monsters like Evil thats why they are called AIM MONSTERS.Sure Rapha (the mighy man of decicions which should result in ultimate winning streak) won QC13, but he won it due to the fact that he shot a *lucky* (may it be lucky or not) rocket that gave him the situation he needed to win) which in the end was just aim.

hes right to some degree.

eventho i find his good high ping lg bullshit :-)

it is bullshit. Its like youre refusing to have sex with that girl because she doesnt bend the way you want her to.

That analogy. Im so proud.

but would you have sex with a girl who wants to shit on your chest?:>

quake doesnt shit on weird.

it does, as online gameplay isnt near enough to lan experiance

doesnt matter had sex.

and now your chest in covered in poo

still counts as sex.

so sex with another guy is also ok? god, raise your standards dude

where did a guy come into the equation?

Oh, please. Leave mathematics out of this. Nobody should come into an equation.

:D

*cum

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cum#Etymology_2

I wonder when people started misspelling it on purpose though.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wikisaurus:semen
Hadn't thought of cock snot!

baby gravy

Oh god.

Might edit that page and add schlong syrup

:_D

still counts as sex.

If thats what youre into.

im not, but considering your "doesnt matter had sex" philosophy - you're one sick bastard

i might be. so what?

nothing in particular as long as you stay away from little girls

ur spinning this way out of context :D

You may notice he's ok with little boys. Here's your chance.

:D

"And you ahve to understand that the connection issues you just talked about do not dictate the way you should play." <-- it does dictate the way you should play (given that you want to win online games).

"Being outdamaged doesnt mean that its because he had higher/lower/unstable/potat ping. It just sometimes comes as an element of surprise and so on. " <-- I have no problem being outdamaged by strenx his lg but him comming from a "weak possition" with half of my hp should always result in a fight that I win unless I make some huge mistake (which btw I sometimes do, but not in this case). Also I know his playstyle so I was kind of expecting such an action.

"And even sometimes when you think that the decisions you make are the best( or the optimal ones) you are not necesarilly correct because you might think so, but you need someone else to prove you wrong about that decision." <-- ofcourse! :D

"And even moreso, according to you, if you make optimal decisions you should win all the games" <-- I didn't say that?

Perhaps I misunderstood the

"For instance I had a practise game vs strenx on dm6 where I made all the right calls but I lost because from the spawn he took lg and raged into the ra room and did like 250dmg vs me having a normal defensive. On lan it's like a free extra kill.".

And about that very situation, why do you think you then lost to his rush? Do you think that LG went through or what?

extremely short summary.... his warp + ping + unlagged netcode.

=shoot through lg?

well I wouldn't call it "shoot through" it's just insanely much more difficult to aim at a model that moves irregular than one that moves normal.

Yeah. But why doesnt this affect/concern other players then? I've honestly had shootrough lg in cpma . No where else i experienced something similair. As for moving, I do not know. While chating to you i've been planting stupid ideas in my head while playing which are appearing since i went from ~90 ping to 30 ping.

When you're on the ra (or near it) you're not moving much. Especially not while you're expecting an easy lg stream onto someone who wants to go up the stairs.
If you're attacking ra from sg you have a lot of speed.

Even if his downstream of data also failed (making me warp on his screen) it is the case that I hardly moved during that time while he ran up the entire stairs.

But in general when you have warps your screen won't show them (unless you get connection interrupted but in general your screen will be fluent).

Also, due to unlagged in combination with your own screen changing instantly when you're moving, you can actually see into the next room earlier than I can see you entering.
Giving the attacking player some fairly easy lg possibility (slightly more so on bad pings than on good pings).


I'm slowly getting less capable of going into the details through stories about ingame situations though... I've made a lot of comments on this in the past. It might be better to read those ;)

Heh. Somehow it doesnt bother other players.

it kinda depends who you ask and how you ask it....

Many players just accept it and play on. Most of those actually start to play (overly) agressive online.
I dislike playing agressive as I'm not an agressive person :p

Then play as you played. Just accept it and play on. ADAPT.

I'd rather remain "inactive" than adapt a playstyle which wouldn't work on lan.

And I'll never ever work on altering my playstyle to fit with my connection.

Ur never on lan :D

Go to sleep, weird.

I lost on 4 maps to spart1e at dh summer 2012?
At least 3 of those maps were really close as well..... Also it felt like even during those games I was still very much getting more confident on my "lan game".
But I don't want to use "lack of lan knowledge" as an excuse for losing to spart1e as he played some good games... and I did as well :p.

Other than that I've played on several dutch lans only dropping 1 map to sc00t (sc00t did improve a lot after that I think though).

I am totally drunk as I reply this, but I think that while beating/losing to Spart1ie is an achievement, he is still not the best. Therefore i lost my thoujght and I have no idea what were talking about. So if u play on lan and u lose to pros but "close' then why not overcome them? theres only like one or two steps to go to beat them then. That musn't be that hard kno what im sayin'?

because at the same time I was losing to random warpy bitches in online tournaments/pracs.

but isnt LAN where it actually counts?

yes but most lans are invite only... which is based on online results.

Which is why (around 2010 when I considered myself to have been good) I told people that online I couldn't win games which I would've won on lan.

So in the end, someone else used the game mechanics and the things the game offers better than you. That is just called losing. :D

If you think that the "game mechanics" are different online than on lan then yes they did things better than me (aka fuck up their i-net and play agressive with lg).
If you think that "real quake = on lan" then no they didn't do anything "better" than me according to the game mechanics.

If you think that you are going to have a valid discussion with a drunk person you are mistaken.

All i was ever trying to say is that whether you are right/wrong on the netcode statements, it still applies the same rules to everyone else, and they just ADAPT.

Do you honestly think that if you were to be allowed to "fix" (again, i have no idea if that is a viable option) the netcode, you would be top...10 lets say?

who cares about being top10?

I just want a game I enjoy playing / competing in.
I still from time to time enjoy a game... but when I get somewhat back to my old skill I start to see how people take advantage of certain things which they can't take advantage from on lan.... and I get anoyed / stop again.

And this is not because I lose and run against a wall of skill.... it's because I have to alter "a good game" into "a good online game". Which I often do for a few games... but I don't like that, so I end up stopping again.

I guess that in this discussion we will just keep spinning the same thing right? :D

CPMA NETCODE (NO XERP)

Used to play on some euro servers for fun, it felt perfectly fine

my favorite netcode is the source engine netcode

*sets* cl_interp to 0.5 when playing with high damage single shot hitscans

sup enjoying my +forward play where I shot you dead before you even saw me on your screen? or when I hit you after you thought you were safe behind the wall? (;

There is one thing i don't like in ql netcode: hitbox is'not at the same place as the model when opponent is moving, it is always shifted in the opposite way to movement's direction. So i have not to shoot right to the model, but to the place behind where model was at some time ago >.<

It feels like hitbox position is more correct in cpma, but still it is a little bit shifted. That's why I prefer warsow's netcode where hitbox is always at the position as model.

It feels like hitbox position is more correct in cpma, but still it is a little bit shifted.

I really cant disagree more, IMO the CPMA hitboxes are so potat its funny. I have had quite a few moments where i just shot rail and I CLEARLY didnt hit the guy but it actually counted a shot.

I dunno how much did you play cpma, but it looks like you are just used to QL hitboxes :) Yes, CPMA has some inaccuracies with hitboxes, but not so noticeable as QL.

Here is a few examples:
1) Search in Google "quake live netcode" - http://bit.ly/17OOmYM
- http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php...ve-Netcode
- http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php...discussion
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn_tAMcI40w
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlNEVdcDpyc
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvhQjHFzr_Y
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUfmdSPuUoU
- what ppl usually searches: "quake live hitbox netcode problem" :D
And try to do the same with CPMA/Promode...

2) Everybody remember great toxjq's comeback vs av3k on ztn, I would like to ask you to watch it once more. Just try to imagine where hitbox was while Tox had hitted such insane rails:
http://youtu.be/S59sXXggMb8?t=8m20s

It's only spectator's POV which isn't unlagged.

On his screen, he was shooting straight at the model, because that's where the enemy is and that's where you shoot.

So it was never like you say and all those people are idiots, except JOZ.

He was the only person to ever prove that a shot behind can happen and even in his adventure in trying to prove it, it happened one single time.

He also easily demonstrated how rail trail is drawn in wrong spot when you shoot slash rails (hit is registered where your crosshair will be a frame later after drawing the trail). That's the same problem with getting 20 sparks from SG but no hit. That's a known problem with local prediction, but of course it's mainly a problem for inconsistent aimers. If you can flick and shoot but don't move crosshair for a following 100th of the second, you're fine.


If still baffles me why people think those imaginary problems actually exist, but don't care that direct rockets make random amount of damage (84 or 100), same for direct plasma, and grenades can bounce off enemies. But that's not a problem, let's complain about hitscan weapons' hit detection instead because we have jerky aim. Sigh.

truthfully, i have always felt like more of my shots hit when i'm slightly behind the enemy model with all hitscan.

maybe i misunderstood what you were saying about the tox vs avekk rails, but ive certainly hit shots exactly like what the spectator POV of that demo showed where absolutely none of the player model is visible and/or the crosshair is quite far away from the model.

i've been under the impression that the faster you and your target are moving, the more likely you are to hit a shot without your crosshair being on the target. that idea is what made 180 flick rails make sense to me. the faster you're moving, the more likely they are to hit. maybe i'm completely wrong about this, but idk, it makes sense to me that way.

maybe weird doesnt like the netcode because rockets areNT as effective online as they are on lan and he doesnt wanna change playstyles? idk

im confus

it's more that it's rediculous that if you play agressive with lg on a high ping you can do much more damage than when you play defensive with lg.
Playing agressive must be more risky than being defensive... but it's not. So online play (for high ping ppl) is like finding the boundries of agression rather than having a good overall game.

Also you can't "see where the nmy is aiming" because he aims at where you were and not where you are. So you can't ever dodge based on the movement of his weapon..... Which makes my fighting ability close to 0.
Sometimes I get so frustrated that ql didn't dodge stuff that clearly missed me.... that I stop dodging at all.... and my stats go through the roof. Especially when I realize that all opponents are also neglecting to dodge.

i dont see where "high ping" plays into the argument about defensive vs aggressive play with LG aside from the dodging aspect of it.

what is your idea of high ping, and how is having higher ping EVER an advantage?

70+ ping with LG makes it next to useless for me unless it's a very limited space i'm fighting in and i have the option of spamming the shit out of it. i dont see how that can be considered an advantage, and generally speaking, i wouldnt win that fight against anyone thats good.

purely speaking about fighting skills and aim, etc etc... i'd much rather have the 40 ping that i used to get than the 60-100 ping that i currently get, and i'm sure 99% of quake players would agree that lower ping (within their comfort zone) is always an advantage over higher ping.

First of all 70+ is pushing it a bit. I'd say that high ping is somewhere from 50 - 70. But if you're "very experienced and confident" it's pretty much the case up till ping 85. After that it becomes really really hard....

I've explained how it worked in my "netcode comparison" post (if you want to know the details).
It's somewhat hard to explain though.... and I've tried to do so many times already... even within this thread I've tried ... But people are so convinced that I'm wrong that they are unwilling to objectively see what I'm saying and why this is the case.

i understand when people warp and skip around and how that can be frustrating because you cant hit them, but not everyone with 50-70 ping warps, and i dont consider 50 ping high at all. in fact, 50 ping is right around the sweet spot for me with every weapon.

^this coming from someone who plays with 64-70 ping more often than any other ping.

if you're having difficulty trying to explain your stance on things, i'm not going to press for a clarification because it may come off as pretentious and i dont mean to be. but i truthfully do not understand where you're coming from about high ping being an advantage and having to alter your play for online play because of that high ping advantage.

again, not trying to argue it, i just dont understand the logic behind it, so im gonna drop it.

I've played a lot of OSP, CPMA and now just getting into QL after a long Q3 break.

I have to say the netcode is certainly better in QL for hit scan weapons. It only took a few days of playing and config tweaking to get to the point where I can get 40% LG and 50% RG in T4 CA games.

Rockets on the other hand just feel much different than what I remembered. It seems really easy to wiff now from fairly short ranges. I feel like that wouldn't have happened in any Q3 mod back in the day.

Weapons feel good with 60ms and 90ms too, certainly better than OSP. CPMA felt quite good with high'ish pings too.

Not much difference:

cpm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fS_PczQDpA

QL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWCmv1jxVZY & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AELJfrzniQM

that's probably your connection

No.

gotta aim at the back side of the model relative to movement.

i do at least, or none of my rails hit. i shoot behind people most of the time.

Yes, problem with that is, it's still 50/50 some ppl i gotta hit the model, some i gotta hit behind.

maybe because the playerlean is making you aim further than the hitbox :o heartless said something about playerlean only fucking with your aim or something i dont remember lol

Ok since this thread is still active i just want a clarification on one more thing. I remember reading back somewhere some parts of ql timenudge is serve side where as cpma timenudge is pure client side. Which one is better?

You really gotta tell us one day where you find these weird ideas like "QL has client side hit detection" and "QL has server side time nudge". As far as I can't tell server side time nudge doesn't even make any sense.

lost 20% on rail used to be a steady 50%'er easily my best weapon
lg similar around 30%
pg was super useful and could be deadly now pointless
rl easier in general
sg is way easier
mg maybe a touch worse

not all to do with netcode but some of it will be.

and warp is fucking awful

QL netcode is awful (compred to CPMA or old QL netcode) and ive tried 3 different ISP.

Often when you move to new room, the models appear delayed and shots are going trought more than ever, also 999ping every firstspawn. And if i see more than 2 enemies at a time i get packetloss instantly and see 3m warps for everyone, synced.

What you describe looks much more like a terrible connection than a bad netcode. Accusing the netcode for packetloss, really?

im interested in knowing what causes the 999 at spawn times, and when people connect to the server mid game. that shit happens to me 100% of the time.

Both are pretty much mysteries. I thought the later might have been some lag related to I/O when a player joins and some assets have to be fetched (model, skin...) but tests weren't conclusive. As for the 999 at spawn time, I only ever experience that at match start. Is that what you meant? Anyway, I'm really not sure. In some cases, despite how ridiculous it may sound. it might be a bandwidth problem... more information than ever is sent at that instant as you suddenly appear in a location with a new PVS without any info on what's in it yet. It might also be a problem totally unrelated to network stuff. I don't know.

question... seeing how you run "tests".

Is this 999 period upon starting within the range of (500+1/2*ping) to (500+1/2*ping) + 58 ms?

I never "ran tests" on the match-start lag. I wouldn't even know what to test. I can only show you what happens :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JghPwIi4Gzk

hmmmm... well that could help... maybe I'll look into it.
I do have a hunch what it might be ;p

that exact same thing happens to me every time i spawn in a new round of CA in most servers, except it lasts a little longer than in that video.