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Memento do you read this? You are awesome.

dh picks tox, everyone follows to be in line with it :/

DDK
D
K

FUCK YEAH!

Btw, can't we switch toxshit with aerowalk for one season atleast?

I actually really thing the map pool will be really good balance old/new maps in that way... tox is old map anyway.. and promotes unbalanced games even more than aerowalk... :S

I do understand that tox can be a frustrating map and I don't think its a very good tournament map. But aerowalk is even worse.

It's spelled toxishitty.

4830 duels tracked

56% ztn
14,3% aero
1,5% tox

no wonder

On my other accout ztn is lot less played. I just started to play other maps than ztn just a year and a half ago. Before that it was 85% ztn :D. I have 200 games on toxshit... and I am okish there. Beated few quite good players/rarely lose really bad... I just don't think it's good tourney map and it ends that most of the time it is decider too...

and aero is a better decider where someone can spawn at nades having NOTHING and the other guy has all other items and all important weapons from the start beeing up like 10:0 until the other guy even gets a rail?

Good player can evade that situation, tho I agree in q3 spawn system/aero was wayyyy better(as you can spawn more likely at red armor, now you just leave red up and put pressure without caring for minutes...). Still better than tox raping tho. :)

how in gods name can you avoid this first spawn? ... maybe the master can tell me

you can avoid being raped as fuck not the spawn. ;)
Watch some old cypher/cooller/etc smart player games. I remember quite a few where the raping is denied. :)

Mappool rage down here

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Too late! :p

yay mappool!!

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Toxicity... :/

Great map pool, hope to see more of Silence and Sinister! Wish Aero was included instead of Tox :(

Why they plused you, but not me? ;(((((((((( (cry_me_a_riverrrrrrr...cry_me_a_riverrrrr)

Your comment is 3 lines -> tldr for the average esr user :)

I guess... :D

There, I bold it for you, average infidels! :D

Om soz ;'(

<3

Dont worry shahe, you can railwhore on tox just as good :D

get

rid

of

toxicishit

anyway to change it/add something to make it not shit?

doors and extra rooms

remove lg

that sounds really interesting. Maybe put in Nailgun, because the map has a ton of angles and corridors that would make it LULZ for the bouncing nails

Like imagine a nigga sits on mega, and you go from the bottom and nailgun up through that hole. He's going to get raped with the rebound.

fuck the nailgun, shit's retarded. I expect UT to have that kinda of weapon, not quake. you don't need to replace lg with anything on tox, just remove it and see how it plays out

nailgun been in this bitch since quake 1. of course i'd like rapid fire mode, but bouncy shit aint too bad.

don't get me wrong, quake1 nailguns are sexy as fuck... but that bouncy shit doesn't belong in q3/ql

I like the bounce because often in quakelive if you +forward around a corner you'd get +back rocketed in the face, but if you shoot a nailgun around that corner, they cant stand there or they'd take that shit ful on if you angle it properly.

Also if a nigga is running away, you can aim for the angle and snatch his hopes away with the bounce.

I think it deserves a fair chance, especially for duel

maybe I would like it more if it fired like original nailgun / mg instead of sg then

HEY MUDAFUCKA! YOU WANT LULZ?! DAWG, ADD THE BFG INSTEAD..YEA DAT'S RIGHT, BIG FUCKING GUN NIGGA DROP DAT SHIT!

youuuuuu... I won't talk to you for atleast 2 hours! Plusing shahe, but not me with my first toxshit hate?!?! ;(
Kidding, take all my pluses, but REMOVE TOXSHIT AND PUT IN AEROWALK INSTEAD FFS

and put hekshit instead?

why even have fast maps at all? true competitive quake is shown through slower maps

because combat skills and quick thinking/instinctual reactions are just as much as part of competitive quake as positioning and long term planning.

who says slower maps lack combat skills and quick thinking/instinctual reactions?

:%s/competitive/online/g

That is a really good and valid point, even though I dont fully agree.
Let me explain.

Dm6, Toxicity and Aero are the maps that most people seem to hate nowadays. I think theyre great maps, especially dm6.
But what worked in osp/cpma (except for dm6, that one was shaft-broken even then) may not work in ql. The weapon balance is different, strategies have evolved and timelimit is 10 instead of 15. So it should a natural thing to rebalance them rather to remove them.

Overall, I think theres very little creativity when it comes down to maps in quake.
Starcraft:Broodwar is a perfect example of how important the maps are in terms of... everything. Game had what people called 'the perfect balance', 3 races equally capable of beating each other. Yet it were the maps that brought the perfect balance and made the game a legend.
Unlike in sc back in the day, we dont have professional map makers, who study the game and come out of this knowledge to make the best ones possible, but still, I am really disappointed that we still dont have a map without shaft (t4 is out), shaft + rail, or a map where shaft has like 30 ammo maximum etc.

So I dont think the map quality equals to its size; have a small sized map, but make it different, so people wont abuse the same ways and strategies to lock the enemy out of the items.

yes i agree, fuck fast maps, they are shit and unplayable in ql.

i put one in because of retarded all aim no brain guys.

anything really.

A V 3 K
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3
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can't [ + ] this post just cause of toxicity, sorry

D R O P D R O P
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najs mappool :-)


imo ztn, dm13, t7 and cityy_tourney2 aka cure are best maps evah... add one random map from fast maps shit so aim-onlys will be happy, and we got a perfect mappool

toxicity [ - ]

heeehh toxicity no good okay blyad

North american cup? :o

I'm surprised someone even noticed.

no government, no cup.

-tox
-sinister

+aero
+hektic

lol

no way !

I love the Toxicity hate and then they all want Aerowalk stating that there are less lopsided games. Funny thing is its still a small map with lopsided matches all the time. Only reason you see the occasional good match on Aerowalk is because the map has been around for eons. Only thing is those good matches end up being lopsided at the end cause someone eventually gets full control of all the major items and ends up destroying his opponent.

Personally hate both of those maps due to the fact that its all about spamming weapon/spawn points which to me is completely skilless.

Not sure about completely skilless, but not delaying spawns and running to the closest weapon off the spawn is, and why people lose so many frags.

-ztn, -dm13
+t9, +hektik !

Tox is a good map, everyone here is dumb.

bring

back

top

plays

!


harosh!

-maps i hate
+maps i like

Finally someone i can agree with.

well said

shitstorm incoming

Looking forward to more footage for +baksteen 2

I hope avek will play!

'twas a good run my north american quakers

av3k would be cool idd.

/addbot KOLLER WITH SEKRET KEY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nSvaqKcwSc
One-T & Cool-T - The Magic Key
ash_ & Cooll-R - The Magic Key

remove lostworld and toxicity and add 2 new maps. Maybe even bring back aerowalk.

aerowalk in ql is not the best map ever, but mainly because of the fact that it's a classic, it almost always give interesting games (just like campgrounds). Maybe it's not as good as in QW or CPM but still entertaining to watch. Watching k1llsen and strenx play aerowalk is always amazing.
Also, I don't see why you would keep bloodrun but remove aerowalk. Both maps are oldschool classics.

About lostworld, well, I don't think this map is good for many reasons. Yeah it has no rail, but since the rail only does 80dmgs in QL, it's not a big deal when a map has a rail. Others weapons can still be dominant too.
I personally like slow paced maps, but lostworld is just way too slow. Sometimes we see multiple overtimes and 0 frags for 3-5 minutes.
Not even mentioning the fact that when the score is 5:0 it's almost always impossible to come back mainly because of 10mn instead of 15 in q3.
Also, it is supposed to be a shaft heavy map but when you see a very good player playing it, you just realize that it's in fact rocket heavy. Most of the time it's VERY easy to avoid the top middle part of the map, it's easy to avoid the shaft battles. And most of the time if you want to make a frag you have to set up a trap in tight corridors with rl. In reality the shaft battles only happen 25-30% of the time, the rest is mainly RL fights/spam.
No, really, get rid of lostworld already!

So what you're saying is that Lost World is a bad map because it doesn't have a rail, LG is not a dominant weapon and it is way too tactical. Guess you can't use your thunder skills then :((((

Lost World is a special map not like any other around, and it plays very well and makes for exciting matches! #keepdm13

no i'm not saying that it's bad cause it doesn't have a rail. I'm just saying that even with the rail, a map can still be balanced between rail/lg/rockets. It wasn't the case in vq3 osp, where the rail did 100dmg and the netcode favored the rail too.
So even with a rail, a map doesn't become rail heavy, so the purpose of removing the rail from a map is basically outdated. It worked well in 2000-2004 with less skilled players, and with slower rockets. But nowadays most people knows EXACTLY how to exploit a map so that it becomes rockets heavy.

LG is not a dominant weapon

On a map like campgrounds, even in quakelive, the LG is a little bit dominant, which is a good thing. I really miss a map where this weapon is dominant. Some maps are rockets heavy, others rail, but i just can't think of a current map that is lg heavy since campground has been removed.

it is way too tactical

if for you tactical means waiting like 3-5 mn to get the first frag, low scoring and that most of the time people are avoiding the fights, then yes, lostworld is very tactical.
I personally don't like it, i like when it's balanced, between tactic/strategy and skill (aim and dodges) but atm lostworld is way too much about tactic and strategy, and ofc rockets rockets rockets. Less about raw skill, i don't like it.

Guess you can't use your thunder skills then :((((

Tbh i think that the perfect mappool would consist of 1 lg heavy map, 1 rail heavy map, 1 rockets heavy map, and ofc new maps! dm13 is fucking old already, we need to get rid of it, just like we did with dm6, and lost world is even older than dm6!

stick to 1v1 CA

read my reply to killalot above

stick to 1v1 CA, cause the amount of bullshit you say is too damn high

at least i try to provide arguments, unlike you.

you're basically like "okay it's a comment by heartless, cba reading it, brainless"

so then you either start to troll me or hate me even more :D

i belive killalot will provide you with proofs why you are wrong, no need for me to participate

Here is a reply of the imsg you sent to me, since i can't reply to imsg cause i'm on probation :

"Yeah it has no rail, but since the rail only does 80dmgs in QL, it's not a big deal when a map has a rail."
that actually a big deal, because your defensive game is totally different without it.
on most maps you try to put pressure on ur incontrol enemy with rail, from safe distance. 3-4 unreturned rails and u can challange an item easly.

Nah, even on maps with rail, you can gain back control not only by using long range rails :). Look at evil (best dmgs dealer with shaft) or av3k (bulldog with rockets, plasma and shaft). When you use the rail, you can't challenge the items, but when you try to be sneaky, you can set up traps and steal 1 RA or 1 MH, and also abuse your positioning so that you deal at least +100dmgs than your opponent with same weapon, with the lg or rockets (just like rapha tends to do).
If you think that the only way to gain back control is based on the rail, i think that you definitely lack experience and it seems that you only saw k1llsen playing :D.
Btw, did you know that doing 3-4 unreturned rails when out of control is fucking godlike ? Only cypher can do this (remember cypher vs strenx at dm6?).
Gaining back control is definitely not only about rail, that would be really basic. There are actually multiple ways to regain control :
- positioning
- steal/deny one big item (RA MH)
- being sneaky, settiing up traps
- abuse of 1 weapon when you are better with this weapon than your opponent
and so on

on dm13 thats not possible, and you have to be really tricky. thats why its still played: unique gameplay.

Ofc dm13 has unique gameplay, but doesn't necessarily mean that it's a more interesting gameplay. Actually far from that. The lack of rail just remove one possibility of regaining control, rail whoring. I think it's quite unfair for people like k1llsen or twister, who love to abuse the rail :).

"Also, it is supposed to be a shaft heavy map but when you see a very good player playing it, you just realize that it's in fact rocket heavy."
quake should be rocket heavy, its the weapon with most uses. thats why i rage against all aim ppl: position cant nullify lg/rg aim.

QW should be rocket heavy! Not quakelive. I still like the faster rockets than at vq3 tho, and i agree with you that the rocket launcher has to be a key weapon.

"Most of the time it's VERY easy to avoid the top middle part of the map, it's easy to avoid the shaft battles."
yes, u can avoid rl platform, but its the strongest position on map, from where u can control 3 items easly, and basiclly cut ur enemy off 4th. thats why ppl challange for it. staying in the corridors wont earn you items, and its matter of time before u run off rockets.

Ofc it's strongest position, but there are many way to go to the red or mh without necessarily engaging a shaft battle (and without necessarily take the risk to go throught the middle of the map). I agree that it takes more time and more thinking to do so, but it's still very doable. If you are aware of where your opponent is/will be, you can pretty much predict when he will try to shaft rape your ass, and also where. If you are smart, you can try to get like 2 or 3 yellows and then make a fake move, like making your opponent think that you will engage a shaft battle but in reality the plan in your head is to go straight to one major item, without taking TOO MUCH damages, and with doing a fair ammount of dmgs in return.
And you forgot about rocket ammos :p, 15 rockets is way more than enough :).

it is slow, but theres nothing to do about it. it got much better after hitbox update

It is not only slow, it's FUCKING slow :p. Why do you think that it got much better after hitbox update ?

i didnt say its the only way, its just quake 101 lesson, the easiest one. obviously u can make some sick traps or even just lose 3-4 frags with retarded pushing if the no item window is big enough.

and if u play against good timer, you wont have the chance to steal any items, unless u take the risk and invest some of your stack to deley opponent. which basiclly might result in easy kill.

rail @ dm13 would be op, because the map is one big choke point. ppl would just stay @ rl with rg out and aim at doors.


yes, there are ways to get to major items without shaft usage. but if didnt win center map earlier, you just gonna take SHITLOAD damage, especially at red.

If you are smart, you can try to get like 2 or 3 yellows and then make a fake move, like making your opponent think that you will engage a shaft battle but in reality the plan in your head is to go straight to one major item

and how u going to do that without position, when ur forced to either lg ya or pg room?:> going for major item will just result in easy lg, and death.

15 rockets is max 2 mins of defensive play, cause u literally have to spam every corner. if ur enemy controls ammo box, all u got is pg and lg.


ps. 0-0 for 10 minutes was normal before hitbox update, now its just sign of being scared to attack with bigger stack. it doesnt happen so often as it was some time ago, when 3 frags were enough to win the game on dm13.

i didnt say its the only way, its just quake 101 lesson, the easiest one

not the easiest, but the most obvious. I don't think that it's easy at all, at least if you want to master it. K1llsen for example is fucking godlike with his defensive rails, but you already know it :D.

and if u play against good timer, you wont have the chance to steal any items

I disagree there. Even the perfect timer player has a flaw. Sometimes there is/are situation(s) where you can force your opponent to do a specific move and then force him to sacrifice 1 item, the mh or ra.
But ofc when you play against rapha, it's way harder to do so. Same applies vs cooller.

unless u take the risk and invest some of your stack to deley opponent. which basiclly might result in easy kill.

So let's say you are 100hp 100/150ap. The opponent is 200hp 100/150ap. If you go straight to the middle of the map and you start a lg battle without leaving it, ofc you will die in like 5-6 secs. But when you know almost exactly where your opponent is, and you found a way to predict his move, then it's definitely possible to change your position mid-fight and leave the center of the map or hide. It's only a matter of time. Sometimes doing the right move only takes like 3-4 secs. And these kind of move can also make you win 1 RA or (but it's more rare) a MH. And you can even deal some great damages in the process, especially if you got better raw aim or rockets/plasma skills.

rail @ dm13 would be op, because the map is one big choke point. ppl would just stay @ rl with rg out and aim at doors.

I agree with you that rail would be op at dm13. And i'm definitely not suggesting to add a rail at that map :D

15 rockets is max 2 mins of defensive play, cause u literally have to spam every corner. if ur enemy controls ammo box, all u got is pg and lg.

Nah, if you spam too much you reveal your position. And controlling the rl ammo box when you have to control the MH and RA, and also preventing your opponent to go for the YA close to the PG jumppad, is almost impossible. You just CAN'T control everything.
Also, you can go for the rl when your opponent is going to take the RA, for example. Or if he tries to steal 1 YA at the lg room.

So let's say you are 100hp 100/150ap. The opponent is 200hp 100/150ap. If you go straight to the middle of the map and you start a lg battle without leaving it, ofc you will die in like 5-6 secs. But when you know almost exactly where your opponent is, and you found a way to predict his move, then it's definitely possible to change your position mid-fight and leave the center of the map or hide. It's only a matter of time. Sometimes doing the right move only takes like 3-4 secs. And these kind of move can also make you win 1 RA or (but it's more rare) a MH. And you can even deal some great damages in the process, especially if you got better raw aim or rockets/plasma skills.

i still dont fucking understand what do you mean.

And controlling the rl ammo box when you have to control the MH and RA, and also preventing your opponent to go for the YA close to the PG jumppad, is almost impossible. You just CAN'T control everything.

3items + one ammo box near to one of items isnt even close to "control everything" level :-)

3items + one ammo box near to one of items isnt even close to "control everything" level :-)

The problem is that the ammo box isn't there everytime because the player out of control will probably take it very often.

but can you remind me how much time it takes for the ammo box to respawn ? 5 seconds i guess ? Maybe 10 ?

40 seconds.

really ? :o

that's a lot :o

what lam said

Oh my fucking God, how can you argue about duel and how to easily stack up if you don't know the respawn times?

well i didn't know the respawn time of the rl ammo box, not a big deal.

i'm pretty sure that even some pretty good duelers don't even know exactly about it.

Of course it's a big deal if you're discussing whether or not you can control the ammo box and not have to go to the bridge to collect more rockets...

I guess there are no more TOP 5 because final video highlighting whole season would be just a replay of many of them? There were some complaints about it iirc and I can understand such politics (no rush etc.), but I would like to have a confimation.

Signups?

no notable signups as of yet

I hope that guy will make a song about no notable signups.

Who was it that made those songs again, was it 24 that used to do it?

yes, was 24.

Sorry, i forgot to say thank you.

still no cooller. ;(

"well, maybe not a gong, but a... breeze"


WHAT?

For those who missed it: zoot's stream yesterday was phenomenal!!!

The only problem was... it's zoot.

Av3k, Cypher discussing philosophy and mechanics of how top level quake is played. Zoot's reaction? "Have to go eat, switching you off".

He's like to polar opposite of 2gd: 2gd will push/develop interesting comments or situations. Zoot is sure to drop/ignore anything out of ordinary.

Perhaps the two would complement each other in casting?

what minute was it? i cannot re-watch 5h of quake (:

Av3k joined in the second map of the final evil vs ash, when the score was about 3-1. The "mechanics discussion" was a bit later, I think sth about when ash was losing on T4 considerably.

tl;dr - 4:35:00 :D

ive a strong desire to check it out, although i think im gonna be heavily disappointed

They just pointed that Evil doesn't have a special talent (in their words) and that he wins because his technique when it comes to aim, movement and positions are top notch.

They kept saying how fast he moves (not just how good he aims) and Cypher mentioned few times that players seem to preform worse vs Evil than they would against other top level opponents.

Also, Cypher said that when he is in his crazy no stack defensive mode where he deals tons of damage, he knows how he will do it in his head (through out the fight/situation), but Cypher thinks that Evil just kinda hopes for the best and somehow always comes on top in situations where Evil clearly should lose.


Was a great cast and Cypher + Av3k together = BEST CASTING DUO EVER!

sounds really good, somehow i think i would be more disappointed than satisfied

sounds like if someone told you pizza and sex were worth a try somehow you'd still be more disappointed than satisfied

or u get offered three-some with jessica alba and megan fox only to be cockblocked by someone sitting down to eat pizza on the bed

one of the best part was when Cypher just said that in his opinion Evil just remembers situations favorable for him and just goes by them through sheer feel of the game. He just plays and kicks asses :DDD

Should have stopped typing after: "For those who missed it: zoot's stream yesterday was phenomenal!!!"
He's been casting for hours and he does it almost every day, give the guy a break, if he wants to eat, he should go and eat.

i agree! its much like when cypher or spar1e decides to forfeit their games after a minute or two. they have worked really hard to get there, so if they want to forfeit they have the right to??????????

in less twattive manner, working hard shouldnt excuse you for doing a poor job

you compare 5h casting and I need to eat something with 2minute ragequit games?

/ragequits

yes. since they have worked really hard to get there, they should be excused if they dont wanna play (to eat or otherwise), right?

Comparsion still lacks to me but I'll answer anyway.
I hate 2mins ragequit games.
But what options are there? If some1 is seriously raged and doesn't have the mindset anymore it wouldn't help either if he keeps playing and losing 30--2. So whats the solution really?

heres the solution: dont shut down the stream when you have 2 world class players in discussion that everyone in your audience wants to listen to, especially since youre 'hungry'. i mean, were his health in serious danger? i dont get it

alright, then start your own stream and show zoot whos the boss.

palatka streaming, lol. now there's a channel I would subscribe to.

I think what his stream lacks is he is way over professional for what is live entertainment, in the sense that viewers would be more entertained if the stream went beyond covering a particular tournament. For example there could be showmatches, (long) interviews, guest casters, show quake chat, fragmovies/youtube, a quake related background (those Russian related frames that happen to suit 125fps cups), play different things, keep ins in charge (can he juggle?) and whatnot. Don't pause the stream when something big is on it but just get something to eat live and eat it live, because that's more entertaining in itself than a blank screen.

That's how you captivate an audience in the long run, the person (the whole channel) over a particular content that happened to be popular at a time (program, in which zoot got quite lucky that people associate him with quality cups instead of other channels that cover better stuff yet have less than 50 viewers).

What I want to say is right now if 125fps dies then his channel dies, whereas it is not the case with the former top4 strenx, or if cooller starts streaming then he would get thousands of viewers even if he hasn't won anything huge since centuries. The same happens in LoL, a cult of personality that is made by eating on stream and by being unprofessional, or in other terms a real life person that works like a live show where only a portion is scripted and doesn't rely in 15 minutes of fame.

Haha yes.

Suggestion for the future:

When you have top players who want to talk, and an audience who want to listen, but you really REALLY have to go eat (question of priorities, I know!) just keep the stream on lol

i'm sorry I couldn't keep the stream on. Cypher had mentioned regularly how he had to go any moment and I don't think Av3k came on with the intention of hanging around for a long period of time to give show matches.

There was already 2-3 hours of Cypher's insight assisted by Cooller and Av3k for shorter periods of time. Not that I don't think people could learn more, but if I am going to do a show with high profile players discussing Quake then I am going to schedule that show instead as that is not what I originally planned to stream.

On top of this I had very short notice of the event and already had an extremely packed weekend, so me keeping the stream on was out of the question. Also when you are getting severe stomach pains from not eating for 9 hours then it is a good idea to go, and I don't get to front page of Twitch by leaving the stream on and not hosting.

Cypher was right, some comments made by by-standers are completely ill-informed. I didn't get exposure for my stream and Quake by listening to people like you.

On a side note, I didn't get a chance to watch the FACEIT stream at all today. Can anyone recommend any matches to watch?

Keep doing what you have been doing zoot :)

i just want to say that you look like george harrison. :D

Can anyone recommend any matches to watch?

cooller vs ins lostworld

poni vs pavel on sinister

You should have added this line in the end "TL;DR: fuck off moron."

Will u cut the vods of oldskool cup to youtube, please?
That epic day feed should be saved in more accessible way than twitch - lotsa stuff to rewatch from time to time.

Will be cutting it all up today, just finding a spare moment to do it :)

2gd streams other games and wants to make the next dm fps game. Zoot invests a lot of his time to stream QL. You can read many fair points in his answer. HESPECT

both aero and toxicity are annoying maps. if you want a fast map, pro-t4 isn't too bad, is it flawed anymore in QL?

North American Cup??????????????????????????????

Not this week.

;(

"Pavel must be a bit upset." (c) Memento_Mori

"Cypher must be a bit happy." (c) Anonymous

EUROPEAN FACEIT FALL #1 VODs with timestamped links : http://www.esportsfrance.com/actualites/31091/ (no spoiler)

Toxicity only one day FaceIT cup? Anyone?

That would have to produce at least one or two exciting games on that map!

toxicity -> updated delirium

Its a great map, +backers :/

Okay, people need to stop saying Sinister is boring, bad, not ready and whatever has been said. I think it's great and entertaining!

Also, p0ni's little rocket at the wall on ztn to help him get to RA when pavel railed him = $$$$$. Quick thinking.

I have played Sinister quite a few times now and it is indeed not so bad. I am not too fond of the red room to be honest. I find it vertically speaking a bit over the top. And the stairs that are leading to the red, I hate as well.

Other than that, it feels like a fast and nice map but that might be because I dont know how to play it defensively yet. Obviously, very shaft and and rail gun heavy.

I like the Red Armor room actually, I think it offers a lot of variety in both attacks and escape routes. :)