ChrisG

jwong

Daigo

CMSS.

This guy's a regular celebrity these days.

ye but unlike nined he is a noob that everyone hates

He made the mistake of going full shamanic. ;)

Let's hope it's not






Permanent

wombat

Zhu or Heartless?

He4rtl3ss. A cheater is always less than a troll imo.

Better at what, in what time period, at what game?

Both are very good at making money.

X-Fire > gamerfood though, so I'd say Thresh > Fatal1ty.

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god damnit where have io heard that before?!?!!?!?

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oh ye! thanks.

fatal1ty is better! I don't know who Thresh is.

well ...

Thresh wins Ferrari in 1997 Red Annihilation Quake 1 Tournament!
John Carmack at QuakeWorld 1996 ^ ^

Dennis Fong @ E3

Deletion requested by user.

hes not even that good.

GOD OF WAR sanchez

Also, who has his own LoL champion and who doesn't.

In terms of money I remember reading somewhere that they aren't that far apart, something like $25m for thresh and $10m for fatality.

Just because the numbers 25 and 10 make only a difference of 15, does not mean that £10,000,000 is close to £25,000,000 lol.

I thought I had edited that out oh well.

The correlation between that mistake and your username is so ironic. Giggled.

maradona vs messi?
ali vs tyson?
black vs white?
dinosaurs vs humans?
eggs vs lego?

lego 4 sure

Fatal1ty, of course.
He fought in a more legit era, more legit opponents in a more convinving way.
And still he wouldn't have a chance, in his prime, against Rapha or Cypher ;-(

Well I completely agree with the first 2 lines but as for the 3rd there's no way of knowing.

fat was around only in 2000-2001, afterwards he just ran away from one game to another. he won some in 2000, he got owned in 2001.

It doesn't state a specific game so I'm presuming it's total careers.
Thresh played quake 1 and quake 2 and that was it and it was alot more 'closed' due to hardly any international tournaments (if any) and early internet. Mostly playing only USA tournaments.
Whilst Fat won alot of quake 3, did pretty well at Quake 4 and was number 1 or 2 at Painkiller which had all the top names from various FPS games. Then playing games such as Quakeworld, UT2003 and whatever other random games he won.

can't compare total careers if one lasted 3 times more than the other

Well theres no point then? You want to cherry pick fats 2 years vs threshs 2 years? Doesnt work like that

i say that thresh was a legend / the best at something during his whole career. fat wasn't.

so there you have it

Luckily for thresh there wasnt much competiton

i'm terribly sorry for being unable to gratify someone who wasn't the best at any game he ever played except maybe alien versus predator.

Fat was one of the best for periods of time when he played most of his games.

His tactics were to play to his advantages because he knew he only needed to convince the outside world.

In all fairness, he was v good at quake 3/4/pk. (he played Q4 and PK for the entire length of the game, so he deserves some respect).

The rest of the stuff he did wasn't worth a shit IMO, and an example of him being found out was when he played RocketBoy at doom 3 in 2005 and got beat badly. Despite being World Champ, I doubt fat will ever forget getting raped on the great wall of china in doom 3.

But to fat he's playing for titles, bragging rights to promote himself to the outside world who don't know any diff.

You can't say he does not have skills though. Just not as many as he makes out.

Love him or hate him, he's the most successful player.

I actually agree with most of the stuff you said. He was just going for titles per se, no matter what kind of titles they were.

He obviously has the skills to be like top3 in various shooters, but you can't really ignore the fact he got that silly doom3 like months before anyone else in order for him to prepare for quakecon, or how tox was approached by fatal1ty team at WSVG finals trying to arrange some tight match or whatever, his "shootouts" where you have to play with given mouse, config, and whatnot... no respect for him whatsoever. but he did create a brand with jumping from one game to another whenever competition emerged.

Anyway, i'm pretty sure that comparing the money thresh got out of his business after the gaming career with how much fatal1ty earned with his brand would show that thresh wins by a huge margin.

why compare the money they made OUTSIDE of gaming? might as well say Bill Gates wins by a huge margin, therefore Bill Gates is the best quaker of all time!!11

because every fatal1ty argument contains the "success" element which explains why really being the best at games wasn't so important.

On the internet, and especially in quake, no one knows you're Bill Gates.

No one!

I just hate it when newer players try to say that dennis' opponents were weak, or that there weren't many players/talent for him to face. That is complete and totally incorrect.

There was _plenty_ of ultra strong competition in his days.

Keep in mind that, by 2000 the community was getting more and more fragmented due to the number of online fps games available. The lack of fragmentation that existed before this increased the player counts of quake games tremendously.

Thresh didn't just play q1/q2, it was doom2/hexen/quake1/quake2 and he always won the tournament he entered.

He also defeated makaveli in q3 practice games before razercpl in 2000, where maka placed 2nd to fat. This was with very little experience with the game.

The other thing is players like fatal1ty had the benefit of learning from a lot of the "quake theory" that was developed before they became "pro". This kind of stuff was strongly influenced by Thresh and other such top players of his time.

Plus czm, fox, fat himself and others were around that time. They just weren't at the very top in duel.

Strong competition... in the USA.

Yup that's right.

look what happened when they took deathrow to europe.

so other than the PGL's (national tourney) and the red annihilation tournament (E3 tourney), some online doom tournaments, what did he win? official tournaments not practice games. im not saying the players were weak but at that time they were pretty much restricted to american tournaments whereas by fats time it was international. why didnt he play quakecons or cpls?

I'm just saying that because it wasn't international, doesn't mean his opponents sucked.

I understand that it wasn't nearly as international at the time, but players he competed with later went on to do well internationally too.

He did win that quake 2 exhibition match in the UK, where the winner of the tournament "Billox" was beaten like 50 0.

As for DR vs. clan 9 I see things differently (and this isn't just about Thresh now).

In my opinion the score should have been 10 to 0 for clan 9 as opposed to 8-2 because:

A. The DR guys were playing quake 2 last, and had even pretty much stopped playing that by the time of the 9 match.

B. DR had virtually no experience with quakeworld. They were all netquake with various ping times, and their strategies were by then quite outdated.

C. Clan 9 was the best in EU, and they were playing quakeworld together regularly with what in the US would be lan pings. For any European team to have played the same match vs. clan 9, a similar result would not be unexpected.

D. DR had no experience with e1m2. The idea of playing a 4v4 on e1m2 was absurd to Americans at the time. At the time it was absurd to me too, and I had the same reaction as Thresh when he said that this seemed like "glorified ffa". Of course now I know better.

E. In the venue they played, voice chat from the opposing team could be overheard. While 9 communicated in Swedish, they also knew English quite well and so could overhear DR's voice comm, while DR of course did not understand Swedish. DR had to come up with strange names for things to adapt.

F. In at least one duel we have (unholy vs. spice), unholy won easily. In my opinion most if not all of the DR guys would have defeated any of the 9 guys in a duel. It's not particularly important, but it just goes to illustrate that they were not push overs.

So this match was analogous to for example, if ice climbers (of q3 fame) came out of retirement and were to play Slackers in quakeworld. It might be a fun match to watch, but the odds of iC winning a game would be very poor.

I personally think that DR managing to win 2 games is an extraordinary testament to their ability to adapt and eek out some wins against all odds.

Billox wasn't the best UK player at the time and won the chance to play Thresh by winning a Wireplay tournament only open to those paying for the Wireplay service and I think it may have even been an ffa tournament. Also hated q2dm1 and rarely played it.
A better example of him playing international duels would have been the exhibition match vs the Japanese champion (apparently) 'Highroller' that ended something like 100-0 on dm6.

As for the dr-9 game that was more of a cheap shot haha. Dr had moved onto q2 by then and quake 1/quakeworld had changed alot in that time such as Clan 9 moving and doing jumps the dr guys didnt even think were possible.

We'll never know if it was USA or Europe that was dominant in that time period just as we wont in the Clan Kapitol era.

We'll never know if it was USA or Europe that was dominant in that time period just as we wont in the Clan Kapitol era.

Seemingly from your post and the one above, neither was as they weren't competing at the same thing. At least for the DR vs Clan 9 era.

Thresh didn't play in CPL because there were some contractual issues going on. If you were contracted with PGL you weren't supposed to also play in the CPL.

I'm sure something could have been negotiated there, but most just assumed that this was a no-go.

Obviously after the PGL bellied up this wouldn't apply.

There was also some tension between the DR guys and angel munoz, but I don't have much detail there.

As for quakecon, it was a very different animal back then. It wasn't a major tournament the way it became later.

Id say he was more of a pioneer of the fps game, than an all time best player. Granted he did win everything he competed in quite convincingly but there seems to be some stuff that was missed out.

I think he definitely belongs to a group of the greatest players ever, up there with fatal1ty, zero4, cooller, cypher, rapha.

It's about being able to adapt to changing circumstances and bring the win time and time again when it really matters.

It's kind of like in chess. You could definitely argue that players like Karpov, Kasparov, and Lasker made a greater contribution to chess than Fischer, since they broke more records and remained world champions for a much much longer period of time, having defended their title many times and had longer careers.

Yet Fischer's influence and legacy likely dwarfs them considerably, such that he really cannot be excluded from any reasonable list of the greatest players ever, even if the list is very short.

ur analogy is limping imo. chess never had any technical restrictions, right?

What do you mean by technical restrictions?

aim (ball-mice. poll-rates.)

I'd have to say no, but how exactly does this relate to the subject?

without those restrictions, the game got harder. thats why you cant compare the skill-level of early quake with the current quake. unlike chess.

without those restrictions, the game got harder. thats why you cant compare the skill-level of early quake with the current quake.

No, this is superficial and has little merit.

Having fast machines and well working optical mice did not turn your average joe into a pro.

You'd have to argue for more disparity in hardware between players in the early days of quake and this has some truth to it, however it would seem to have had much less of an effect than one might think.

Despite the differences in hardware/connection that existed the skill still rose to the top.

Take Hijinks for example, who played all of his games on a pentium 133 over dialup, but managed to snag some lpb action at a local university to qualify for the red annihilation tournament. He still placed 4th. This is despite the lan practice/online lpb + pentium pros of his opponents.

Or Unholy who placed 6th at the frag2 q2 tourney despite being on dialup at home.

Great quake players come from having excellent prediction, timing, aim, strategy, positioning, map knowledge, adaptation and a will to win.

You can't give this to a person just by having better hardware/connect, especially when the competition that makes it into the history books is going to be on same systems over lan.

Just because the skill level of the average population rises, doesn't mean that the top players are any less difficult to beat.

good god u could've saved ur entire story if u bothered to read and think about what i said, instead of just repeating some of ur fav old stories :p

I did read, I interpret what you are saying as another "people sucked back then so thresh had an easier time" sort of gig.

When I said that they didn't you were like "well hardware sucked for most people back then therefore they sucked and thresh had an easier time".

I don't know what else you could mean. Obviously players couldn't use optical mice when they weren't available, or increase the usb polling rate when no software existed to do so. It was not against tournament rules to do these things, they just weren't possible. You could use ps2rate and use 200 Hz through ps2, but usb 125 Hz felt just as good if not better.

Anyways it's just not true that thresh had an 'easy' time. It was as difficult then to win these tournaments as it is now. You don't have the benefit of any future developments in game competition strategies.

Mark my words, 10-15 years from now you will hear the same garbage about rapha/cypher/evil/cooller if you're around to hear it.

People will be like "rapha sucked his opponents were so easy" and "he'd get pwned now" blah blah.

You just matched my nerd level. Points received. I agree. Touche sir!

Edit: T'was to lorfa not ja ja or whoever.

when fatal1ty left usa, lakerman, blue and polosatiy happened. and back at usa zero4, socrates and chaoticz on t4 happened.

amen

He played in 2002 too, came 3rd at Quakecon, defeating the current best in the world. He also still won like half the tournaments in 2001. He still won tournaments in other games all the way til 2006, including Quake 4, which had people like cooller, toxic and cypher.

I'm not even a fan of his, but the oft repeated myth that he was only around for a year is bullshit.

He played in 2002 too, came 3rd at Quakecon, defeating the current best in the world.

if that's you referring to zero4, he had a terrible 2002. besides losing to unknown spanish dude at wcg, he sucked at quakecon, losing even to chaoticz afterwards. on the other hand fatal1ty lost twice to fucking daler who got crushed in the finals. only a cunt such as him can pronounce that failed comeback a success. 2001 had quakecon and wcg, zero4 won both. dunno what did fatal1ty win in 2001. apparently cpl australia but i don't know who even attended that.

let's say he was the best in 2000, even though top3 would have been more precise. and as far as quake goes, that's that.


He still won tournaments in other games all the way til 2006, including Quake 4, which had people like cooller, toxic and cypher.˛

this never actually happened, he placed 2nd once, no matter who attended, he never won a quake4 tournament. there's something called championship gaming invitational but i can't find any info on that one anywhere...

the guy is a cunt, why can't people accept that?

look at this shit:

fatal1ty stats or whatever

the guy counts painkiller world tour STOPS as world champion titles. how low can you get?

LeXeR

i second and quad this

its got to be fatal1ty

*gotta

*gorra

Some of you will argue about anything won't you?

:D

zhu

ath is way better

fat and thresh played a game of pro-t4 after this interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxVd5Jr0KJ4) and fatal1ty beat thresh 15-5.

You can ask fat himself on facebook. it happened.


I know that isn't showing the best of thresh's skill as he may not of played regularly at that point. but thats the only time i recall them dueling each other at quake 3.

maybe but you can't really ask a person who claims 12 world championships or whatever it was