Dumbed down Quake. No thanks.

Fair enough.

"Not Quake (c)" ESR.

Not unsurprisingly the first comment is also the dumbest.

If you would have watched the whole part about Reborn you would know it's actually going to be more skill based than Quake. (Though there will also be an "easy" mode.)

Imagine 2 guys playing against eachother. They use different robots which have different weapons, different movement, different skills and one wingman each who bring even more abilities. Sounds like it will be extremly random..

I understand that this is in an early stage, that reborn isnt quake 5 and that it doesnt pretend to be quake. But i didnt feel like playing that game at all.

Stop imagining and start listening.

Different robots aren't supposed to play against one another. It's like boxing weights.

That wasnt what he said. He left that open.

Nah but he said that well enough on other occasions and eventough I admit he only implied it in this occasion, it was always the plan.

Different robots already splitting the scene :D

Yet, in the end of it all, at the competetive level, the differend ROBOTS will have to play each other.

I hope so. Would be pretty shitty if one specializes in some robot category that doesn't see competitive play much. The robots will have to be perfectly balanced and the maps will have to be designed with diferrent movement systems in mind.

inb4 cpma / vq3 robots only

>>> They use different robots which have different weapons, different movement, different skills and one wingman each who bring even more abilities. Sounds like it will be extremly random..

I am also not (yet) convinced by all these ideas, but as Demon already said we will have to wait and see because so far these are all still just ideas in testing. (For example the different modes might fracture the player base before it even has time to grow.)

But my comment was not about that. It was based primarily on how 2GD talked about the game and how weapons / physics will behave.

I think, on the contrary, that is a brilliant idea because it will still be the same game and, say, if one class of robot is very hard to handle because its quake-style, people who play with "lower" tier robots will still be interested in progressing and will be looking up to those players that can manage those "harder to manage" robots and will not feel like out of the game, as they could feel as of now in quakelive.

I really believe this is a genius step forward to promote fast arena fps and make it viable in the long term. I'm very enthusiastic with this reborn project and I'll be looking forward to test the game for sure :)

First tourney in November

what did he mention about weapons? only caught the near end of it

You can make/design your own weapons and add models to them.

VOD: http://www.twitch.tv/thegdstudio/b/530320657
Reborn starts at 2 hr 30 minutes

the reverse thing is amazing

Any chance you can throw it on youtube, twitch says i'm banned... even though I can watch streams... strange.

Thank you!

OK, Zoot. Your stream needs cats, too.

Every stream does.

[+]
Thanks for the link.

Too long didn't plusseded;

Thank you. Will probably watch later.

The download from Twitch has 1280x720@60fps h264 .avi , mp4a stereo 44khz

Youtube one has 30 fps

kittens are so cute

all i can say is they couldn't possibly make a game that's worse than cpm. godspeed

Reborn would be so great if those words and ideas translated into reality sooner than later. His views of Unreal Tournament and id Software are spot on.

Around what time was his comments on id/UT?

No idea.

The implosion sounds sort of cool!

rocket implosion is cool, same with that small arc with the rockets over a distance.

everything looks sweet except for how maps will be handled. I just hope it's something decent and not something where I'm dropping $10-$20 a month just to be able to play popular maps

but I'm pretty sure he sees how a prem/pro sub model is horrible for FPS and the same for charging for specific maps

he specifically mentioned how he does not believe in holding content back and that maps will become available for everyone

He mentioned maps would be available for download for something like $1 a download, and once it reaches a certain amount of downloads, like 1000 for example, it'll become free for everyone. This allows people to get early access to potentially popular maps as well as allow the whole community access to all content (eventually).

I like that

I'm really wondering how they're going to balance the different 'robot' types in duel...assuming they don't immediately segregate them into leagues like he mentioned. I guess if you're playing as, say, a slowmode bot vs a HAL_9000, you will get lots of movement-based abilities / weapons like that grappling-hook rocket to help you compete.

Perhaps a slow moving robot would have more powerful weapons while a light weight robot could have air control but weapons made of plastic.

hawken on meth ?

I think different robots (classes) are'nt supposed to fight eachother. You pick your robot and fight other robots of the same class. This is from when he talked about his ideas of the game some time ago so it might have changed.

I got the impression that you can play with different robots if you like, but you can also choose to restrict it to one robot only.

in b4 big pool of robots to be picked or banned before the game, DOTA style.

ye lol xD

2GD said the different robots would be like different weight classes in boxing

Yeah, I remember that, but I thought he left it open as to whether inter-class matchups would also be possible. (Can't be bothered checking, because I can't remember when that was discussed.)

I think that could be pretty cool, as long as they don't ruin things by trying to perfectly balance the classes against each other. Just treat inter-class matches as a fun thing for people to do in a non-competitive setting. Who knows, it might turn out that some matchups are actually balanced -- and the rest would be a fun way to handicap the better player.

He may have left it open but it would be a poor design choice for the following reason. James indicated that there will be three robots initially, one of them (the one demonstrated) has movement mechanics similar to VQ3, the other robot will have air control mechanics similar to QW/CPM, and the final robot of the three he mentioned would have much simpler mechanics, and I'm thinking something along the lines of TF2. Now, I'm trying to imagine a duel where one player has the QW/CPM movement mechanics, and other player has opted for TF2 mechanics; who do you think has the better chance in winning the duel, and is the duel fair?

I think James cites boxing as an example because there is no way you're going to see Mayweather fight Deontay Wilder.

I get your point, but that's what I was alluding to when I said that I hope they don't try to balance the classes against each other. Most likely, inter-class duels will not be fair, but that's not necessarily a bad thing if e.g. one player is much better than the other, and they decide to use different classes as a kind of handicap.

I also don't think it's inevitable that all of the cross-class matchups will be massively unbalanced. (E.g. movement advantages might be offset by reduced hit points, and/or weaker weapons.)

secondary fire mode?:(

with vstr you can make alternate fire like guns on everybind you want, but if you have 6guns, with alternate, you will need 12binds for guns :D

or you can use spacebar to jump and mouse2 for alt-fire like normal people ;p

So I need to rebind other important bind who is on space and so on... let's say space for jump is plant Z (last choice). I would rather use space for +attack2.

whatever works heheh. i cant get used to firing with spacebar though, else i would of used toxics config a long time ago \o/

2GD mentioned at one point how an action shooter like he is wanting to make can't have too many binds. So he is well aware of the problem.

I think they are envisaging a much smaller number of different weapons for each game mode than QuakeLive has at the moment for example.

so this is supposed to revive arena fps genre? :D

edit: o well, i don't like it. seems like he's trying to create an fps version of dota2. didn't watch after the skills talk and blink and clone bullshit, but he ain't far away from adding item recipes to the game as well. smells like bs, probably is.

R E F L E X
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Unless 2GD is flat-out lying, he's already had a new engine coded, and is now into the fun part, testing ideas. Apparently he can finish the game on a relatively small budget, which seems realistic since the only major expense will be art assets. Even if the risk of failure is high, he's got some kind of guaranteed audience (half of esr and some of his own fans) and the ability to generate enough hype for a medium-sized crowdfunding campaign. At this point, why would the project be abandoned?

Reflex != Reborn

Haha, I am an idiot.

Very excited for this, considering all the stuff James says he wants to do and show this year.

I would like to see a little more focus on the actual raw gameplay rather than this map making feature though. Love the concept for map creation, but I still can't actually tell what the game is going to be like at all. Sounds like there is a bit too much focus on how the game is going to be monetised rather than how the game is actually going to be fantastic to play on a casual and competitive basis.

Looking forward to more updates!

We don't even know what the gameplay is going to be like at this point. Modifying gameplay doesn't take long at all, and it will probably be changing up until the very last day. The main thing is to have a playable engine and the tools surrounding it, enabling you to then play test and see what's fun and what isn't. Any of the current gameplay ideas are candidates for being scrapped or replaced.

I wouldn't draw any conclusions about anything just yet, and just take this as an indicator that things are progressing :)

I've been checking out the progress over the last months, certainly looks you guys are taking positive strides forward :)

I'm looking forward to hopefully being able to test things out post-TI4 (from what I remember James saying, it's going to be open to everyone?).


Best of luck!
Hope you get drawn in to the Prague lan again ^^

>>>Sounds like there is a bit too much focus on how the game is going to be monetised

Very cynical comment. And wrong (imo).

All 2GD talked about (concerning monetization) is how to give money to people from the community who contribute making maps, textures etc.

So completely the opposite actually of what you were saying.

So you think he isn't working out how to make money at all?

Sure he is. Are people still allowed? You want to see the game running? I don't see anything wrong with planning ahead.

It's just that you made it seem like he is only in it for the money, when everything indicates the opposite is true.

Maps need to be fine tuned and tailored with specific physics / movement in mind (and to a lesser degree weapons, items etc.).

How is that going to work with all these different game modes that have different physics and weapons?

I feel it's too complex atm and will make for weird gameplay. I know it's alpha and all, but part of what makes great games great is the fact that they are very simple to grasp but hard as fuck to master.

Here, between the multiple robots, multiple shots, "skills", rewind stuff, rocket movement stuff, strange weapon knockbacks and "wingmans", I feel this would be a clusterfuck of possibilities too hard to fully grasp and wouldn't make for nice predictable gameplay.

Another thing is the "punishment aspect" of the game. Errors need to be punished and here with all the movement possibilities, I don't think you could get stuck for very long...

With all that said, I think the game seems smooth (I wanted to jump around and fuck with the weapons) and there's a lot of great great ideas, they just need to be organized I guess.

No current game is or will be as simple as quake is. Most probably there isn't a single game made this century that is.

easy tiger

Bear in mind I wrote that with 1% of focus into listening to 2gd and 99% into watching those kittens

they're so active !

all my cat does is sleep around the house and hassle me for rubs

then you should maybe give it some playmates

she's older, and more importantly, she'd kill any cat that tries to live with us

The fact you are focusing on simple kittens is an analogy of what's being said: Simplicity wins. Q3 shits on this gimmick fest.

I just don't get your constant Q3 praise, like it was 100% perfect and no other game should be made or played ever. The reason Q3's retro revival version, QL, is somewhat dead everywhere in the world except in europe (and ca) is that it isn't good enough.

Have you played anything that came after q3? As games, fun-wise pretty much every AA-AAA current fps will have a better score than QL does. Not only that, as games UT2K4 and PK destroy Q3. To burst your bubble and even though they aren't directly comparable, fun-wise LoL is way better than QL is. When was the last time you laughed playing quake?

For reference here's a very similar game to QL. The only thing is to consider some aspects are worse in 2014 QL so the score should decrease from that, such as feeling more dated -now even more so three and a half years after- and a massive price increase. Personally I wouldn't give QL over a 7 by any means and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that wasn't a uber hardcore player back in the day.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/12/21/quake-arena-arcade-review

As for being more complex or simpler or if any of those is objectively better than the other, that argument is just silly.
1. What matters is how fun the game is for everyone, despite everything else. It's just a videogame (for some reason you don't get that).
2. If anything quake is way more complex than current fps games are. As a quake player you should know that, with the lack of rounds, having items, non displayed direct objectives, no assists whatsoever, way tougher movement and everything. If you want simplicity then remove strafe jumping, which 2gd is not doing thus far.

Quake is very niche but it scores very well for what it is, while plenty of AAA titles are just bland re-skins of their previous iterations, many lacking any lasting value.

As for #1. It's not just a video game it's meant to be an esport/competitive game so it needs to live up to some standards. Skyrim is just a video game, a good one but it is not a competitive game.

#2 is arguable Quake can be more complex in some aspects like items or weapon variety, but other fps are more complex in their objectives, round based structure and the complexity that arises from the need to coordinate as a squad. In that regard quake is kind of simple in the way of achieving your objective. The decisions in quake are usually quite simple but this simplicity allows players to make the best decisions.

I guess it often comes down to comparing micro management to macro management type of decisions. For example Quake has much more exciting fights than any other modern fps while the strategic aspects are very simple, in contrast counter strike has always been for me about making best strategic and tactical calls and shooting the guns is somewhat more secondary.

with the lack of rounds, having items, non displayed direct objectives, no assists whatsoever, way tougher movement and everything

And thats what makes the game the ultimate 1v1 fps platform and you can call it e-sport without embarrassment because it's an art.

At the same time the concept is very easy. When I was a complete newbiew I didn't even strafe left and right and went full blown W on FFA servers and had a blast killing people with full graphics on.
When I started legit good at the game I understood why some people was obsessed with this game since 96.

It's not the game's fault it isn't a multi million dollar game. Justin Bieber moves millions while people with insane music talent are poor, it is what it is. Making a dumbed down version of the game is never the solution. Updated with current graphics and whatever, but the core gameplay is what makes the game special. Easy to play, hard to master. Quake's concept is easy as fuck, there are enemies, there are weapons and health on the map, kill the enemies before X frag limit or X timelimit THATS IT. When I was 13 I understood this and had fun and I had no idea about strafejump and what not.

I very much agree with the simplicity argument.

For an esports title the game needs to be very simple I believe. In order to appreciate a game I personally need to understand what is going on very well. You need to get the gameplay and also be able to put yourself in the players place- understand his options to appreciate his game.

I also very much appreciate the sort of complexity that only comes from simplicity. The simplicity of a game allows us to tract it by it's most fundamental rules and thus the road of perfecting one's game is maybe much clearer and not necessarily easier.

Also simple design allows actually the player's character come out in game much more. For example if you have highly diversified classes and abilities, there will be little choice on what and how a player will use for attack/defense/harassment, yet if you give them very simple options to work with- the players themselves will have to diversify the use of those options to create a different effect- think of the rocket launcher as the way it can be used offensively, defensively, harassment and chip damage on item pickups, area denial and even movement enhancement. All these different uses come from a gun with a very simplistic design. Let the players design the matches by their actions and not so much the developers.

Also very good point on the error punishment- I am a strong believer that most games are won not by playing just good but by explicitly punishing your opponent. A game where errors are easily punished will create a much more fierce battle between the two sides. Players or teams will constantly probe their opponent for weaknesses and not just mind their own business and play just their own best.

Then again the Quake crowd is a tough one and mostly hardcore veteran players. Most importantly for a new game to succeed as an esport it must be fun for the casual players. This is why football is the worlds biggest sport- because everyone enjoys kicking a ball around with their friends and it's easily accessible to everyone and thus so many enjoy watching the pros do it! League of Legends is not the biggest esport because it is an amazing competitive platform. It is because it is the most popular game out there and all the casuals look up to the pros and want to see how it's played right!

Games don't need to be simple. They need to be intuitive, that's all.

Maybe but I was merely stating my preference. For example I love the simplicity of chess and the games it allows.

EDIT: And of course I would never advocate that tic-tac-toe or shootmania are amazing because of their simplicity. There is a minimum threshold of complexity that is required but the simpler the better. Even if they are intuitive, too many rules and possibilities make it very hard to search the 'perfect solution'.

Yet Chess is not played by a Lot of People (relative to the # of People That know about it). One of the reasons might be that it is not intuitive enough and You Need someone to explain it to you.

This is maybe a little besides the point but almost everyone I know, knows how to play chess and plays it at least occasionally or used to. :) Most of these people are shit but the rules are very simple- chess is the perfect example of an easy to learn, hard to master game. I think it is also very intuitive- kill your opponent's shit and work towards his king. Of course the advanced study of chess becomes very complex and difficult but that's the beauty of it but at no point I would say it is not intuitive or illogical.

At the end of the original post I kind of made a vague point of what makes a good competitive platform also a good game and that, I believe, is- fun. Chess might not be exactly a lot of fun for the amount of work you need to put into the game (similar to quake compared to other games out there).

And I probably have to concede here that the simple games, that I love so much, are maybe not as 'fun' for most people. So one would want to throw in gimmicks. It's an interesting subject for sure though.

I think we have a different understanding of intuitive gameplay. Killing your opponents shit to win is very easy to grasp and intuitive. However, the different movement abilities of the individual chess pieces are not. The playing board or the design of the pieces do not exactly point towards the way the game has to be played to reach the desired goal, i.e. winning. Show chess to someone who has never seen it before, he won't know how it works.
Now you could argue and say that most of the people you know know how to play chess. However, that's because someone has told them how it works. I don't know how old you are exactly but I predict that with demographic change, less people will know how to play chess, because there is less people carrying on playing it.

The same thing happened with quake. Killing people in an FPS is intuitive. Strafe jumping is not, armors respawning every 25s and MH respawning every 35s is not - just because it makes no sense at all (strafe jumping) or the design of the game does not make it clear to a newcomer.
However, the solution to this problem is not to dumb down the game but to find an approach to make it self explaining and natural.
Quake is simple but not intuitive.

I got what you mean, I was thinking of a different intuitive.

And I hope you are wrong about chess falling out of popularity! :/

It's hard to admit but you can't surpass Q3 in terms of perfect balance between hardcore and fun for the newbies, plus aesthetics are spot on as well. All of this feels like James is trying to come as innovative when all is he doing is adding a lot of gimmicks. You cant reinvent the wheel, if Q3 isn't worldwide popular isn't our fault. The best that can be done is an updated version of Q3/QL to today's standards, with actual advertisement, matchmaking, and a way to monetize from it while delivering all of the content for free (not this premium subscription bullshit). The 1€ per map download for example, now thats cool.

I like many ideas mentioned and shown there. I didn't expect any good from Reborn, now I need to rethink that.

Same here, really. I hadn't lost interest completely, but my expectations were low. Now I feel kind of excited again.

Come on, guys, I know it's easy to see something and immediately dismiss it entirely because of certain features, or lack thereof - but this is an early build, things are going to inevitably change. I'd say give it a chance.

I'm hearing lots of interesting things here

Looks good, a lot of cool new ideas. How come you ended up creating your own engine instead of licencing or using an open source variant? Seems like a pretty fucking epic job to undertake. Who's behind the engine? Looks smooth except for traversing stairs. Looks as bad as Quake 3. Hopefully you haven't emulated how explosions behave on stairways like id.

i wonder how the hitbox system is made in contrast with the netcode system.

This was a huge disappointment, he has made quake even more complicated to understand. Why the fuck you would make different classes under one game which cant play against each other? If you make classes let them play against each other.

I dont also get the demoing in the phase where he talks "we have tried this only in few games", dont fucking demo gameplay which havent been even thought out and might be changed totally.

What comes to map making there are some good ideas about contributing, but why the fuck would someone create maps with that editor when its way easier and 10x faster to do in Blender or other 3d-software. Though maybe it could be used as gameplay conceptor for players.

Also would you code your own base for game when theres good platforms to use?

For me it seems like few guys playing around with no real experience how to make games..

All those questions are answered in the video.

duMBo

Did you listen to the part where you will be able to compile the map distributed over multiple computers, including people who connect via twitch, all while working on the map at the same time?

For example.

Yes. Compiling maps are fast anyway with current-gen computers. Basically only good idea in it was that you could contribute and play as the map is being generated by maker.

Maybe you should watch it again, turn on audio and listen second time around :>

For the good of mankind, please stick to typing in just Finnish.

Its funny how you guys come defending this stuff without any actual arguments.

I'am 100% sure this game is never going to have any success if there wont be huge changes in the plans.

It's not Quake, but sure many things 2gd mentioned which are hopefully to be implented sound awesome. Take that map making stuff and the possiblity of baking the map with use of all cpus of the people who spectate in real time. Neat.

exactly because "It's not Quake" it has better chances of being successful. He has to make the game playable for the casuals and at the same time keep it close to a quake game.

Everything sounds fucking awesome so far!

I'm really interested in the special skills like the 'reverse move'. The secondary fire mode features should also allow a lot of new and interesting tactics and gameplay. My only immediate concern is the balancing of everything but that is of course something that will be balanced down the line.

The wingman idea sounds retarded. Just saying.

It's also an optional game mode. Just saying.

More like it won't be included because it is too retarded. Just replying.

Such a waste of time. Any new FPS game is a pure waste of time as there are already so many other good options available with the infrastructure already there in combination with modding possibilities if you posses the knowledge. A good example is Quake 3, an excellent example is QuakeWorld. Making new inferior shooters just to get something new is such a brain fart i can't believe it as you're always starting over instead of endorsing a stable, capable platform.

If Q3 and QuakeWorld are already sufficient in themselves, as you proclaim, why are nobody playing them these days?

outdated games and platforms, you show up at any random LAN where 80% of the guys play LoL and they look at your screen as if you were a weirdo. Feeling out of place around gamers is just depressing.

LANs still exist outside pro tournaments?

i used to go to one here in my region but it was canceled due to low budget this year (spain)

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5VT0VxT5lc

better than dh, qc and every iem combined

I was sorta asking rhetorically. Wanted himself to tell me that the old games were built on an obsolete gaming platform. These days a game has to be wrapped around a social structure with progressive unlocks and so forth.

DotA and LoL has set a great example of how to keep the casuals around as well as catering a professional competitive enviroment. I am certain that James obtained great insight in this by working with Valve and DotA, which makes me very optimistic regarding Reborn. He has obviously put a lot of though effort into how to ensure the game's future.

I agree with you and what's mainly missing in both Quake 3 and QuakeWorld is a proper matchmaking system for example and that's my point; instead of reinventing the fundamental parts of an already good game with good spectating features, why not build upon it and focus on the MISSING features instead?

I wouldn't be opposed to the idea that 2GD, fox and fazz could come up with something even better.

he has some nice ideas though ...
rockets rebounding from walls ...
rockets not flying straight ....
those things would benefit a quake game too imho.

and personally I am fed up with how id has handled quake in the past ... they have benefited from their brand and quake legacy long enough ... but what they are doing now is just sub-mediocre

you can have many ideas, but it is productive to follow them ?

to encounter is a good idea, shoot down things like rockets (Loadout) or plasma balls (ASMD UT)

which could all be implemented into a new mod

not Quake (c) ESR. Skills like backtracing movement, scondry fire, a LOT of things that make ur shitty decisions go unpunished. Its cool but, I wouldnt want a new up and coming FPS to understand FPS the way reborn IS.


Apparantelly, theres no denying 2GD wants to make money. I gujess thats the most obv thing one could say.

why is secondary fire seen as such a bad thing here? if anything the most 'hardcore' fps played in this community had it and one of the most too. Those are pk and ut respectively.

secondery fire is the lesser evil, its not that bad I guess.

I'm just wondering what key I'll bind it to if I have mouse2 jump.

Where's textures, weapons, gameplay? Two freaking years!

ITT : People discovering it takes times to make a game.

what is a placeholder

Haha. Good joke.


Reborn is joke.

I am excited about everything he mentioned apart from the wingman mode.

Of course nothing is set yet but the example he gave- having a wingman being able to steal item timers and your opponent having the option to pick a wingman to block item timer stealing........ bla bla bla.... That kind of stuff does not belong in a fps it's all too random rock-paper-scissors shit. Seems like someone has played dota and diablo just bit too much..

I fear if this "VQ3" version of a robot is added w/ essentially all quakelive/3 stuff, you may have a game which majority of the players only play this bot (since they're used to it, instead of trying a different robot). So you may have many players playing in the ladders and tournaments of this robot, but not very many for other robots (if that makes any sens).

they're cool ideas, but they have the potential to make the game turn into a clusterfuck

that RA (corner with stairs) he pointed out is from the Q4 map Monsoon

I dont really dig this diversed robot and custom weapon ideas, for me one of biggest advantages of oldschool fps games was the fact that your play style is totally determined by your own playing ability and temper, not some dota/tf2-derived stuff , see cs/quake/rtcw

That's cool. But those games already exist, he is making a new game for a current market.

wow first thing i see is bunnyhopping/strafejumping...

also, I see some of these new movement abilities, and I wonder, will they have learnt the lessons from Warsow about combat and hypermanoeuvrability? if not, i suspect this game will be very messy when it comes to actual gameplay...

If there's something to be learned from warsow is that:

- adding everything is not a good design choice, both for casual and for competitive play, which is what you said.
- weapons have to be satisfactory to use, hit. A prime good example is the shotgun in id software franchises.
- the balancing must be done by someone that understands fps' and how to play them.
- advertising without substance does not work really well, meaning that the game/product has to be good too.
- on the positive side, the community can do many great things for the project for free (until they grow up and leave to the better games Kappa)

"adding everything is not a good design choice, both for casual and for competitive play, which is what you said"

thats not what i said at all - if you are going to add things, you will have to make adaptations. the bigger impact the additions you make have, the more adaptations you need to make. therein lies the problem imo, as the warsow movement additions have a HUGE impact, yet the adaptations from the Quake formula are pretty minor/non-existent.

its for this reason that you get lots of players that can feel and sense the flawed nature of warsow gameplay, yet noone can quite agree on what it actually is.