Ty zhu

:'DD

?

YOU FEEL SUSPECTED? YOU CHEAT? YOU CHEATZOR? WE KNOW YOU DO YEAH WE ALL KNOW.

cmss_

cheating, when it gets out of hand, makes me think twice about playing. also the devs/admins leave the impression they don't play/love the game (just a job) or they don't have enough money to invest into anticheat tech. A recent example was the game planetside 2, where it took an year before the number of cheaters lowered.

cheaters don't make me question my values, nor those of the people using the cheats. i'm not 15yrs old anymore. i know what are my motivations to play and realize that other people can be infinitely messed up in the head.

i refuse to play against cheaters, because i usually have no chance, but i don't really have a negative opinion of them. to me they are just a nuisance like bad weather, power cuts, bad ping etc. if the game is healthy, cheaters will be dealt with.

"If you play with cheaters, you will be more likely to cheat yourself...". Sounds like some kind of tautology. Why would i play with cheaters if i didn't like being part of their community?

"camping is socially not acceptable in video games"

my first question would be: are you this stupid by yourself or someone helps you out? if im in the lead, and have a good position, i can camp as much as i like to. for some reason nobody throws beer cans or potatos at cooler when he stops and waits for his opponent.

also you are trying to tell us that deviant gameplay and cheating is pretty much the same thing. its not. for example using a heavy in tf2 pickups upsets everyone cause they cannot focus it, and they start to cry because i use different tactics.

also why would cheating make me feel better: i would still suck at the game.

"who is always being called a cheater, although he does not cheat, might end up cheating". you havent played on an ffa pub before, as far as i can tell.

my last question would be: how much money do you earn making up total bullshit "gamer sociology"? cause this really beats my current job.

Dude I was talking about camping in general. There's all sorts of camps. Don't tell me you will like someone who doesn't move a single finger on a map for 10 rounds in QL CA.

Leave cooler alone, he doesn't need your beers and potatoes.

I guess you didn't understand the idea of cheating... If you cheat, it's obviously to play better. Otherwise you're just worse and stupid.


I make enough money to live on my own and make you read that bullshit as you call it.

That's the whole point of CA.

bridge

it's cooLLer you idiots...

Why insult, Gladus?

are tf2 pickups very active? is there an IRC channel?

Tf2picup.net on the internets

Last time I tried that site the pickups where a bit shit. There used to be a really active IRC channel for eu tf2 pickups with regular players, I think it was ran by multiplay (?). I tried it months ago but it was dead.

edit: looking at it now I think this is a different site to the one I tried. I'll try it out, thanks

this article makes me want to cheat

posting in a jonesy thread

sup

get out

http://i.imgur.com/MoqEp5a.gif

Looks like you have to be a dick head to use hacks.

if wallls turn to glass, what does glass turn into?

Woah dude

more glass

Cheaters must die!

Cheaters must die, respawn and already be killed again!

Cheaters must wait a few seconds, respawn again and be spawntelefragged by spawning teammate!

Than cheaters must be killed at spawn again, and start to whine that You have a "spawnplace prediction cheat" which allow You to launch the rockets in right direction BEFORE their spawn. -_-

After being humiliated cheaters gonna disconnect and go to sleep. Raged and tired.

Next days cheaters, in try to "revenge" with all types of cheat, must be banned by lazy admins. Forever!

Great first video but what in the world is going on here?

See https://www.youtube.com/user/DasBoSchitt channel: used Valve's games universe characters in comedian roles.

Like hackers (black hat, grey hat or computer security experts) whatever their reason for hacking, we can't deny that they contributed a lot to InfoSec development.

Interesting article! A few notes:

I think 'cheating' isn't very black and white. There are several "shades of grey" of cheating, some which are still argued (for example, if there is a bug/exploit in the game code, is it cheating to use it? Is it cheating to let someone play under your name? etc etc). So in this sense, what would you define as cheating?

I think it's difficult to apply social theories to cheating in games, because these traditional theories are based on physical rather than virtual societies. I don't even know if i'd go as far as calling a Quake community a 'society'. What I mean is... in "regular society", even today, it's still considered somewhat deviant to spend many hours playing video games. This is still not quite an 'acceptable social norm' and thus anyone who spends copious amounts of time playing games may already be seen as a deviant with or without cheating.

Personally I just take the easy way out when trying to explain cheaters (wallhacking, aimbotting), just assuming they're (usually quite young) without the full functioning of their pre-frontal cortex, so they can't make decisions about what will effect them in the long-term. Rather, they are hedonistic, searching a short-term dopamine response from winning.

seems pretty clear cut to me: if u use a third party program to alter the parameters of a game, thereby giving u an advantage over other players, u are cheating.

yeah, solid definition! I just mean that there are other ways to "cheat" (imho) other than using 3rd party programs. eg: a coach in spec on TS in TDM, or fakenicking in a tournament. I was just wondering what the parameters of his hypothesis was ;)

Rather, they are hedonistic, searching a short-term dopamine response from winning.

it's cheaper than cocaine

Thanks for reading!

So what I mean by cheating is all the possible ways that get you an illegitimate advantage against your opponents: wallhack, aimbot, and so on. The other things such as bug exploit, CFG file modified to death, and so on, are just deviances.

It's not that hard actually because the virtual world is shaped from the real life. We are humans, we come from the real world and we'll bring all we have from there to the virtual because all we know and all we've been shaped to was from the real life. In both places you'll socialize (make friends, talk to people, etc), have a role (teacher - league admin, and so on).

I'm trying to make comparisons and contrasts with these two environments and it makes sense to me. Let me tell you a bit more:

From a sociological/psychological point of view, society is a group of individuals made of institutions. An institution is a group of people with one duty/goal in mind for the society it's based in.

Well video games are the same. A video game is like a society (on a smaller scale right, keep that in mind :D): you have your group of individuals (all the players) and your institutions (game developers, league admins, teams, and so on).

It is absolutely possible to use some concepts and apply them to video games. I'm not saying everything is true but I'm convinced that all of this is not necessary "crap" or "bullshit" just because people call it that way. They think it's bad because they just play the game and it's the first time they see something like that to explain why someone cheats. People are so close minded regarding cheating and I expected things like that.

Video game developers use psychology to make their game. Valve hires a psychologist, my neighbour works at Ubisoft as behaviour analyst, etc.

Take a look at this one I wrote, I explained a bit that video game psychology is possible and makes sense to people who create video games. http://esreality.com/post/2605025/video-game-conditioning/


"Personally I just take the easy way out when trying to explain cheaters (wallhacking, aimbotting), just assuming they're (usually quite young) without the full functioning of their pre-frontal cortex, so they can't make decisions about what will effect them in the long-term. Rather, they are hedonistic, searching a short-term dopamine response from winning. "

I don't think it happens more than 25% of the time. I've been in a game where cheating was a big thing. I've talked with cheaters many times. It's either they are too bad so they have to try out once in a while to be very good and stop being tired of following the rules for nothing, or they are in leagues and want to win illegitimately. And when I talked with these people, I'm sure there is the same people in another game and there are the same reasons as well.

Personally I just take the easy way out when trying to explain cheaters (wallhacking, aimbotting), just assuming they're (usually quite young) without the full functioning of their pre-frontal cortex, so they can't make decisions about what will effect them in the long-term. Rather, they are hedonistic, searching a short-term dopamine response from winning.

What about Sombra, any thoughts? Older, lan-experienced, still cheated.

There's always exceptions when generalizing.

True, that's why I asked for an opinion on his debacle.

Yeah that was sad. statistical outlier? I don't think there's much data about cheating in games from a neurobiological perspective. What I have seen uses the explanation I said, so I think in this case it may be impossible to generalize.

Statistical outlier doesn't seem unreasonable.

"Personally I just take the easy way out when trying to explain cheaters (wallhacking, aimbotting), just assuming they're (usually quite young) without the full functioning of their pre-frontal cortex, so they can't make decisions about what will effect them in the long-term. Rather, they are hedonistic, searching a short-term dopamine response from winning."

how condescending of you

I don't mean to be condescending! :( I mean it in a sympathetic way. all i'm saying is that the PFC regulates this behaviour, and to put it in a very deterministic, simplistic pov (which is what I like) this is the explanation I choose.

See:
http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/1/3/203.short
http://journals.ama.org/doi/abs/10.1509/jmkr.45.6.633

I admit, i'm not very personable and I prefer to work with data. So yeah, I probably can't write the most empathetic sounding response, but I definitely don't mean to look down at anyone!

Why do we not reverse the question though? Why would such virtual society not be comparable to a real society? I think it even might depend on which game mode you are talking about. In team games there is a sense of group and community feeling, whilst in duel you are by yourself.

Also being deviant does not mean there is no room for deviations within that group. I guess I misunderstood you over there.

Finally I agree about the long-term thing, but not everyone cares too much about the long-term. If you aim for playing at a high level or lans, then of course it is a bad decision on the long term, which might get affected by your hypothesis :P. But for some players it just does not matter as much, after being busted, they'd still play games with a loss of respect; they often can still play their game.
For me cheating might be interesting from a technical perspective. When developing such cheat, you would love to test it on punkbuster/anti-cheat servers (thus more serious servers) and see if it would work out in competition.

... just assuming they're (usually quite young) without the full functioning of their pre-frontal cortex, so they can't make decisions about what will effect them in the long-term. Rather, they are hedonistic, searching a short-term dopamine response from winning.

Hmm.
Also kids today grow up getting used to instant gratification. So they see this game and think "Cool, I'll practice a couple of days and own everybody". When they find out that it isn't quite that easy they turn to cheats.

Also society is getting more and more egocentric. See the whole selfie craze: pure narcism. And we can add a disproportionate amount of self entitlement as well.

Western society is also getting less religious. I think this is a good thing in general, but it has the disadvantage that kids today have to find their own way in the moral landscape. And for many it takes a looong time to "wize up".

All that being said I still don't really understand why people cheat, apart from monetary gains. Where's the satisfaction winning a game with cheats? Makes no sense to me.

Not really, cheating is only if you're a tryhard scrublord.
That and buying a 144hz monitor.

"a 144hz monitor"

but it feels so good

Isn't this kind of circular thinking?

We need deviant behavior in order to create rules, but we need rules just because there is deviant behavior.
A society in which deviance wouldn't occur wouldn't need anticheats and punishments.

Yes, exactly.

Pretty much bullcrap (no offence to brainie), just like any other modern 'psychologies' or 'sociologies'.

Cheats in video games are being made because they can be made. Cheats, viruses, small progs, little handy utilities - on a large scale they are all made because someone can, loves to code and wants to implement his skills and/or just cut some buck.

Using them is another question -

Some people are up to the honest challenge, be it hard and frustrating, while in the end they receive a prize of being skilled in the art and kicking ass anytime anywhere, an internal assurance of some sort, that keeps you aligned towards high spirits and adds points to your charisma IRL.
Same as uni test/exams - u can study physics or smth and get your brainpower improved immensely, doing tests with dignity and integral satisfaction, or u can cheat/shit and even if you somehow get a breakthru to diploma - you have nothing to present other than empty head - real job will uncover your weak-minded nature very quickly, so that u will have to move from, for instance, hi-tech or rocket science into K-mart delivery boy or smth.

Others are, let's say, don't want to invest into improvement in a skill or an art - they just want an immediate one-day result, which, particularly, won't bring any solid internal satisfaction, but will allow them for a few weak 'legit' outer show-offs, like writing 'noobs', 'i fuck you up', 'i'm da boss' etc. in a console chat. No charisma there, at the very least, and a constant fear (no matter how small it may be - it's always there) to be detected as a cheater.
A pretty weak and stupid way of acting, I might say, but it's not like it's criminal, up to the point it involves money.

With moneys it becomes just another way of doing business IRL, it becomes a concern of a league, a dev or the whole community to prevent their soil from mould.
Here in QL we still have a niche of satisfactory proofs - solid long-term performance on-line, LANs and a reputation of a player that comes along with them.

I still wonder how some people find any sense in playing single-player games with cheats - it's like reading a book and quick-listing through every second page without reading it, or even reading the last page first, and then... what is the fucking sense?

It's like seducing a woman and 3 seconds into the first date immediately teleport to the moment where you've already had sex and calling a cab to get home - 5-15 minutes after sex you probably want another round, but you are already going home - it's like nothing happened at all. You haven't applied any skills, nor you have improved any skills, nor you felt any satisfaction - you just have an ethereal 'reason' to tell your buddies that you had sex.
Cheaters are poor miserable people.

They're not "modern" fields. Psychology is based on centuries of thinking and it was called philosophy before you knew it as psychology. Read more man, you can't say such as stupid thing if you've read decently in your life. It's not because Freud was wrong that everything is wrong. Get the crap out of your eyes.


Well cheats are deviances. Making them is against cultural/social norms/rules. As soon as you do something you're not supposed to, your action is called a deviance. People don't cross the line because they can. They do it for a reason otherwise they couldn't. It's called cause-effect in philosophy (unless it's too intellectual or modern for you). There is a reason out there, among those I've listed, and that's what will allow them to be able to create cheats, hacks, and so on.

Some people are up to the honest challenge, be it hard and frustrating, while in the end they receive a prize of being skilled in the art and kicking ass anytime anywhere

It's exactly what I said in the article with cultural goals and Merton's strain theory lol. Omagad, sociology uses the same reasoning you do. Is it still bullshit then?

Cheating in university is the same. Take all my article, remove everything related to video games and use university education instead and there you go. And you can bloody trust me on this one, my professor used this example a lot of times.

Your example with the woman is a bit smoked up.

"People don't cross the line because they can."
Yes they do, you are simply not of that type. Many just cross it to see what will happen.
"It's called cause-effect in philosophy (unless it's too intellectual or modern for you)."
And it is only one of many approaches. Just because it fits you the best, does not mean it will fit others.

you're missing the point - it's not psychology that is modern, it's MODERN psychology (MP) that is bullcrap.

Read more? Boy, I'm a physicist and read so much you can't imagine. An analytical approach to any phenomenon that comes with engineering education gives quite a clear detection system for determining crap in pseudo-scientific piles of text.

Even in the field of natural sciences today - there are many parasites and garbage generators. Tell you what - patenting organizations cannot filter the flow of shit good enough already.

And this here (modern psychology, philosophy) is a field of 'carte blanche' for total speculation and 'personal interpretations', which have nothing to do with reasonable scientific approach.

"cheats are deviances. Making them is against cultural/social norms/rules"?
Are you serious?)) So, the coders of Doom 2 had their iddqd-idkfa etc because they were against 'social rules'?)) Bro, you have quite a mess in your upper storey).

Creating cheats and using them are 2 different things, which is already mentioned above and need no copy/paste. You seem to be mixing anything you feel like, which is no wonder, provided the mess at your attic.

Piling up definitions - that's what MP is doing for the last century or more. It's a zoology of some sort - "let's name the phenomenon this way and create our own interpretation of things", but zoology at least knows what it is.

You will surely blah-blah and advise to 'remove crap from eyes' to people for the rest of your life, 'cause MP scrubs are just that. You can even become famous in the field of MP - just think up a name for some far-fetched 'effect', and spam all MP conferences for a few years, no matter how useless your 'invention' may be. Works like a charm, look up to your established 'authorities' for a load of examples.

everywhere "they" (the media / other ppl) tell you how fast you can achive things.

Every advertisement makes things look easier than they acutally are, so ppl begin to think why they cant achieve these things on there own.

So they think how to "shortcut" things, in school, personal life and in there jobs.
Ppl whit low self esteem or character weaknesses are at risk to fall victim to these "systems".

On the bitter end these poser / cheaters will get exposed or expose themselfs, it takes time. The only problem here is, the longer you have been liying to yourself and your enviroment, the harder the fall will be.

hard work pays of in the long run, if you forgot the work hard you will pay for it!

correct!

TL;DR but I've never wanted to cheat. I wouldn't enjoy playing if I cheated because it would be unfair and easier than it should be => no satisfaction even if you were wiping the floor with cyphers.

the griefing aspect of it can be appealing to some people

Aside video games, how can you not enjoy something easier than it should be? You'd rather do something you can't do than something you can do?

In competition and in (e)sports (videogames for me) I don't see myself enjoying the achievements if I've cheated to accomplish them. Same in life. The catch is that you can't do something as good as you'd want and you're willing to work for it and gain results. You wanna be able to do it, even if you're not able at the moment. And yeah I can see myself rather doing something I'm not good at (can't do) than doing something I already master, for the sake of challenging myself.
Dunno if I'm making any sense or replying correctly, probably not.

Bullshits

Didn't read it yet, but yea i always wondered why people are cheating.
I could explain it pretty easily if there would be big moneys involved... but in quake or mainly just in fps games its not the case. So why are people cheating?

I think we can agree that in a game like quake you need years to become skilled (maybe months if u train hard and played with other similar fps on a high level).

I guess cheaters just doesnt have the patience and willpower to make this progress, and anyway they cant know for sure that they will become skilled even after years of practice, maybe they will just be an average player.

Ego also plays an important role i think.. they just cant accept that someone (actually a lot of players) are much better than them, their ego is hurted so much, they want immediate success.

So they start to use cheats... and they are starting to beat opponents... Since their game knowledge is still pretty bad, even with cheats the game will be a challenge for them. They can still loose some matches, but ofc they will win a lot more than before, and they will "improve" quickly. I guess they have the feeling "wow im improving so much, im so skilled, im so good" etc.

Probably they somehow dont realize its not them playing, and they are still horrible... I mean i could be the fastest man in the world if i would start from the 90th meter, yea i would beat Usain Bolt, i would be in the spotlight etc. I guess cheaters are feeling the same.

So... cheating is understandable i think, but not acceptable, cause cheaters arent respecting other players... who really trained hard for years and/or really talented. It is just a disgusting behaviour in humanity, its like they dont have conscience. Its similar to stealing someone's job, when you know that he/she is much more talented/educated/qualified for the job. I just wouldnt do this cause its not fair. I respect other players knowledge and talent, and i expect others behave the same with me.

From this aspect btw i really dont see the difference in commiting a crime and cheating... its somehow the same. You dont respect others talent/knowledge if you steal something and dont pay for it, or if you cheat. But actually commiting a crime can be even better, cause you might have serious reasons behind it (like you need money for your family's existence or smth), but cheating in a game is just fully selfish and disgusting.

Actually i would punish cheaters with some years in prison... not with a "ban". This way they would learn how to respect others, and they would learn how to work hard to achieve something.

i tihnk you can´t apply a lot of these concepts of labelling and social puinishment because there is no labelling for the usual cheater. You cheat and you won´t be excluded by the community because you can just create a new identity whenever you like.

It is funny how you totally neglect the possibility of simple love for the game and the competition in the many behaviors you list. One would almost be tempted to deduct that you do not fall within this category yourself.

I sort of talked about competition but yeah I sort of pushed it away. It's because I assumed the part on Merton's strain theory was enough related to competition.

Oh trust me, I've played lots of years in competitions and did one nations cup :) . It's just that I mostly had QuakeLive in mind and QL itself is competitive so I didn't need to repeat the loop. Following the rules, the Innovator label, all this stuff can be related to competitions.

"Someone who is always being called a cheater, although he does not cheat, might end up cheating because after all everyone is expecting this person to do it."

Hello, SeriouS ))))

There is so much butthurt in this thread its hilarious :)

I don't agree with the quote, I'd say it's just a compliment or motivation boost if people call you a cheater when you're not. I don't really see anybody starting cheating just because he's called a cheater anyway D:

wasnt it exactly the case with goya/serious? :D

yeah ofc. he never cheated before *cough*

I think you misunderstood the point bretha :)

you said serious was an example of someone cheating because everyone told him he was cheating anyway so he didn't care.

but I believe serious cheated all the way, that is my statement.

how did i miss the point?

Well yeah. I think he used cheats cause of being constantly labeled as a cheater. As much as i would love to be proved otherwise i think that the ql anti cheat is sufficient enough tp prevent him from cheating therefore i think he didnt cheat b4.

ql anticheat?
hl 3 confirmed.

Nope, that's just what he said, not how it was :P

Nope, that's just what he said, not how it was :P

how can we be sure : ?
i could easily say any1 with under 30 lg cant tell if someone is botting
because to him everything looks like a bot ))))))))

New school, utterly retarded and a weird guy with (apparently, I don't know) good lg, then gets busted and throws in a reason as ridiculous as he did. It all fits the bill him being a cheater if you ask me :F We can never be sure when he started cheating but 100% was a cheater, getting busted and all that.

In my experience with video games I've seen two cases like that. The first one, the guy was a compulsive liar. He never stopped saying astonishing stories about his life that just didn't make sense. It appeared in his play style: was always at the good place on the right time, always winning, many times suspicious, and so on. He got caught once before I met him. Then when the game released an anti-cheat, he stopped suddenly playing and we never saw him after.

The second case, the guy cheated before I met him too. Then when we played together he was horrible (the worst of the team). Sometimes people would call him cheater as a joke when he did a nice action because it didn't happen that often. Then more n1 actions happened, more calling jokes, and in the end he cheated again and confessed to me.


However I don't have absolute truth so please be my guest and prove me wrong :D !

cheating t3 and stupid thunderstruck aimbotters, but who cares, they will not stick around, just dont play them. We have it easy in quake compared to other games. Game is too hardcore and most ppl who cheat dont like hardcore gaming in the first place, they dont play for the same reason, and dont play for achievement satisfaction.

no need for circlejerking yourself to try and justify anything by all that deviance bs, because it is just your mind overanalyzing something which is not there imo.

you talking about cheaters ... makes more cheaters... so stfu and play.... see a cheater, ban a cheater...... so few of them out there really

So talking about cheaters makes more cheaters? Gosh...











CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS
CHEATERS

ya, way to fuck over more ppl.... GAWD

[img]http://gyazo.com/d92be0a3282fe3abea03785db53c31f7[/img]

People cheat because they're faggots.

Example: A friend of mine is an ok artist. He'd be much better than ok if he learned the fundamentals first.
So he wants to make money being an artist. Instead of practicing to gain skill and understanding, he bought a light table.

So instead of putting effort into making a nice picture, he decided it would be better to trace pictures and color them in then sell them for $150-$200.....................


Because he's a cry baby faggot.

Actually, I disagreed with quite a lot you wrote. In particular, everything Émile Durkheim suggested. Maybe it's just not possible to relate all of these sociological theories to quake.

Cheating allows us to justify our fairness and sportsmanship when someone gets caught

Yes, I suppose this is true, but it's hardly a large factor. I don't feel justified when I hear about cheaters, because I'm not making a difficult decision between cheating and playing fairly.

We define our moral boundaries by catching cheaters

No, we define our moral boundaries by...defining our moral boundaries? Every quake player would concur that using a hack to allow seeing through walls is wrong; it doesn't need someone to actually create the wallhack for us to realise this. If there were no cheaters, it follows that our moral boundaries had never been broken, so this isn't a problem.

Cheaters unify us.

Yeah, we all love taking the piss, and it gives us something to moan about. So you're suggesting that this is a legitimate reason that games need cheaters?! If there weren't cheaters, we wouldn't have to "debate cases of cheating" as you say.

Cheaters encourage social and gaming changes

You can be unfair in a game in order to release your stress from being always clean.

Does "being clean" really piss you off that much? I've never cheated, and I never get the urge to do so. I never feel frustrated by my lack of cheating. If anyone is being actively annoyed by the fact that they aren't cheating, I strongly recommend them to play a different, easier game.


This article is so weird, I feel like you really sympathize with cheaters. At least you wrote it well :>

Thanks for reading!

Again, maybe I'm wrong. I like this kind of stuff and do my best to make realistic comparisons and contrasts between the two. The good thing is that it's debatable :) .

"Yes, I suppose this is true, but it's hardly a large factor. I don't feel justified when I hear about cheaters, because I'm not making a difficult decision between cheating and playing fairly."

Maybe you don't be people who catch them feel justified. Even players can feel justified. And if they don't, someone will make sure they do.

"No, we define our moral boundaries by...defining our moral boundaries? Every quake player would concur that using a hack to allow seeing through walls is wrong; it doesn't need someone to actually create the wallhack for us to realise this. If there were no cheaters, it follows that our moral boundaries had never been broken, so this isn't a problem."

You need a proof for your moral boundaries otherwise you can't define them. If cheating didn't exist then you wouldn't define any moral about this because you wouldn't know what it is.
Cheating is here, it exists in the game, and therefore you have to tell if you think it's right or wrong. So you'll use the morals pre-defined by the community before and think cheating is wrong.

Actually yes, it requires someone to create a wallhack for you to define if it's wrong or not. Again, if wallhacks weren't there you wouldn't judge it. A good example is a bug exploit in a game that no one never knew about. Your judgement that says "this bug exploit is not authorized" will come after you've discovered it.

It's hard to explain with an example from real life... If I find one I'll let you know.

Yeah, we all love taking the piss, and it gives us something to moan about. So you're suggesting that this is a legitimate reason that games need cheaters?! If there weren't cheaters, we wouldn't have to "debate cases of cheating" as you say.
Well it keeps the good people from the bad (evil), it allows all sorts of unification and not only an topic to talk about around a cup of coffee :) .
If this wouldn't exist, than something would unify us I guess?


About your social changes point, a good example is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Xs2zaSUPs (people in blue are behind walls, people in red are visible by the player's POV)

(I'm sorry guys I often relate to this game because my gaming experience is not so broad).

It took the French community of this game months to debate and decide whether they would ban him or not. The whole French community of this game gathered at this time and had an opinion on cheats, this guy, and so on. Why was he so important? Because he was playing with one of the best teams at this time, he was very very good, and had a reputation. In the end he got banned. Now where's the social change? This guy got unbanned from the game about two years ago because of the release of the anti cheat. When the anti cheat came out, people made adaptations and switched from life-time bans to life-time bans with the anti-cheat and unbans from the previous banlists. People had a serious behavioural change regarding calling people cheaters. Especially with this guy, he always kept playing and was always good. He's still one of the best in this game (if not the best).

I hope you see what I mean. Let me know if I wasn't clear :p .

Does "being clean" really piss you off that much? I've never cheated, and I never get the urge to do so. I never feel frustrated by my lack of cheating. If anyone is being actively annoyed by the fact that they aren't cheating, I strongly recommend them to play a different, easier game.

Being bad pisses people off. You play a game where you have the possibility to cheat, well you can take the occasion and you have nothing to lose on top of it. Having talked with lots of people who cheated, it's because they were bad that they were pissed off. So therefore the rule of "you have to be clean" becomes annoying.

This article is so weird, I feel like you really sympathize with cheaters. At least you wrote it well :>

Ah ha thanks! Thank you for reading! Well I have a good experience with this stuff. No matter what everyone thinks about these concepts, I'm finally glad I managed to put words on a problem like that. I partially left my first game (Urban Terror) because of that. People acted like Nazis towards cheaters, no respect, all the stuff going around this was just so unbelievable. I never cheated but I did have some friends/team mates who cheated or were accused of doing so. The behaviours of people were just outstanding and the anti-cheat they have now is just useless, outstanding in terms of level of disrespect (they use a fishnet, in other words they wait for people to cheat and cause pain to clean players to ban them about 6 months later or so and they make a huge news like this or this to release the names so people can throw their vegetables at them). It's like, we're back at the times where we would make public executions and cut people's head off in public, but now that's virtual.
Finally, I'm also glad I managed to bring up something different. It's the first time I see an article like that (no pretention intended) that talks about cheating this way, trying to bring up decent and founded arguments to explain the phenomenon. At least it's what I tried to do. All I usually saw on forums was debates on whether it's a perm or temp ban and always the same talks going on for ages. It doesn't really concern us, QuakeLive players, because I don't think it would even be technically possible to cheat on it but I think it was good to write it here.

Cheers :) .

If cheating didn't exist then you wouldn't define any moral about this because you wouldn't know what it is.

Well, I see your point but still disagree. I think that if you suggested the concept of a wallhack to me "hey, imagine if you could see enemies through walls!!" before I knew that such a thing existed, I would still think it an unfair advantage without consulting the community for "pre-defined morals"

If this wouldn't exist, than something would unify us I guess?

Look, we're on a gaming website!! And we talk about things other than cheaters!! We're all unified (ok, maybe sometimes) here because of our shared participation in gaming. We don't need to be unified in our hatred of cheaters to function as a community.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Xs2zaSUPs

I'm a little perplexed here. Some Frenchman was using a cheat to *blatantly* give him an advantage in the game, against other people who are playing fairly, within the rules of the game and to the best of their ability, and the community wasn't sure what to do? Why should the skill of the player even be a consideration? And explain what reform this made to the game? :p


I appreciate your obvious deep thought into all this, but I think you might have got a little carried away with the theory and not related it so well to the reality.

You've written an article that focuses solely on why cheating is good - but surely you don't actually think that without cheaters, gaming would suffer? So I'm kinda struggling to find the purpose of the article, perhaps you're that guy who looks for the silver lining of a cloud :>

You wouldn't cheat when playing chess? It just defeats the purpose, unless you only care about empty success. You haven't achieved anything from winning via cheating. You wouldn't want to play and lose against someone who was cheating, just because they get frustrated about losing all the time.

tl;dr cheating is still bad

Ive only cheated in Age of Empire. Big Bertha ftw.

Haha me2 xD AOE2! Wasn't fun for long though, too many elephants made my PC lag :(

ive cheated in killing floor, sticking a tiny bit of paper with spit on the middle of my screen.
screw you non-crosshair shooters >:O

I cheated in almost every single single-player game I played. But it's justified I guess. Bots also use scripts.

I feel bad for the people who actually think this way.

You make psychology look bad. Every point is wrong and is weakly justified by real world events that don't transfer to anonymous online gaming in no way.

*We know our fairness and sportsmanship from people cheating but we don't need to be reminded of it at a constant rate
*We know what the boundaries are by the agreement when you install the game, everything else is pushed to the limit to get an advantage over your opponent.
*Cheaters don't unify us, they break us apart by isolating a player because of constant accusations and in some cases groups of players because of associations.
*How can you find out if a game is too hard if someone cheats? A pvp setting where the obstacle is yourself. The only thing you find out is that you are too hard to teach.
*Justifying your cheating by mentally accepting the positive effects is the first step to addiction to that effect.

To be fair you do mention that you don't know anything about psychology at the start of the article and that is the only thing I agree on you with and I can only blame the mods for front paging this "blog".

Every point is wrong and is weakly justified by real world events that don't transfer to anonymous online gaming in no way.

Tell me how. It's not because you don't have any castle looking like Overkill that you don't act the same way in both places.

*We know our fairness and sportsmanship from people cheating but we don't need to be reminded of it at a constant rate
*We know what the boundaries are by the agreement when you install the game, everything else is pushed to the limit to get an advantage over your opponent.

You got it all wrong and/or over simplified. Read again, better luck next time.

*Cheaters don't unify us, they break us apart by isolating a player because of constant accusations and in some cases groups of players because of associations.

Several players get together to isolate one player. That's unification to me.

*How can you find out if a game is too hard if someone cheats? A pvp setting where the obstacle is yourself. The only thing you find out is that you are too hard to teach.

Read again. I said there must be something wrong if everyone cheats (60% and more of the player population).

*Justifying your cheating by mentally accepting the positive effects is the first step to addiction to that effect.

Wrong again. Better luck next time.

To be fair you do mention that you don't know anything about psychology at the start of the article and that is the only thing I agree on you

Wrong once more. I did not say I know nothing about psychology. I am an amateur and I took psychology/sociology/philosophy courses at university level and I'm sure I know way more than you do in these fields.

In the end there's nothing we can both agree on except about your poor reading comprehension skills.

*of course it is different, Just look at even the most basic things like chat in video games vs chat in real life. You have to be an idiot to think that people interact the same online as they do in real life. You judge a person way more critically when you see them in front of you and your decisions on speech are influenced by the emotions/tones they express when speaking.

*Maybe you don't understand what cheating is and that is why your points don't make sense. Cheating is the breach of the agreement set by the game developers, the rules are like the laws of the game universe. Once someone breaks the agreement then it is considered cheating. All other boundaries are there to be pushed for your advantage in a multiplayer setting ie camping strong armor positions, buying higher quality gear, getting the best internet connection.

*"Several players get together to isolate one player. That's unification to me." That is a unification in a sense where time is not a factor.

*" I said there must be something wrong if everyone cheats (60% and more of the player population)." This does not apply to any multiplayer quake scene nor any other video game where the multiplayer is not in a player vs environment setting.

*Your answers just show lack of knowledge and dependency on quotes and theories that you don't know about.

"In the end there's nothing we can both agree on except about your poor reading comprehension skills." - who is both ? You and I, you assume that I would agree on this with you based on your psychology research ? LOL.

Problem with these posts is the amount of confidence and lack of evidence. You seem to set yourself a lot higher than everybody else on the subject, you know you make a controversial topic to provoke reaction but don't seem to be able to back up your point with proper arguments. "DO video games want you to cheat?" should be the title of your thread based on the answers that you throw back to any criticism.

while we all bash cheating in a computer game, lets be honest: its a valued feature in real life.

cheaters get results faster and with less effort. therefore they are perceived as more succesfull. we want to cheat.

cheating in real life ? what are you talking about ? do you mean breaking the law ?

in that case no.

Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation. This broad definition will necessarily include acts of bribery, cronyism, sleaze, nepotism and any situation where individuals are given preference using inappropriate criteria

"acts of bribery, cronyism, sleaze, nepotism.."

meh that´s a lot of words to look up :/

it means like when our ancestors first discovered fire it was called by all standards cheating

not really no

The moral paradigms that exist within the western world's implementation of capitalism are already so convoluted that it's difficult to really determine what is truly 'cheating' and what isn't.
It's easy, theoretically, to define what is and isn't within the parameters of 'law', but difficult to define, in real world terms, what is truly 'morally right' in the current system.
In real life I cheat to gain any advantage I can. Society does not 'watch my back'. The end goal of life is not sportsmanship, it is to survive in the most beneficial way you can.
In Quake however, the goal is to win while still adhering to good sportsmanship.
Sportsmanship comes from the concept of 'fairness': That theoretically both players are provided with an equal platform from which to compete, and are operating with the same limitations. Therefore, in a zero sum game, the player with the best ability will be the victor.
Quake is focused and concentrated simulacra which appeals to the human desire to compete and win by providing us with a system of constraints we call 'rules' or 'invariants'.
eg. You cannot walk, shoot, or see through walls, so you must play around this limitation. If there are any non uniform changes made to these rules which can be exploited for advantages by an individual player this violates the principles of 'sportsmanship', one player is exploiting the game for his own advantage 'he is a cheater'.
Fairness is easy to enforce in video games. It's a simple system and we can easily delineate what is morally right, and what is a morally wrong way to play.

Cheating in games and in life are not really comparable.
One is a vast nebulous system of unrestrained enterprise. The other is a tightly knit and simple network of rules.

yeah totally.

quake is a hobby, not a part of life we depend on to survive, therefore we can allow ourself to be moral.

wanted to put some light on cheating overall.

well written, could add as tldr: there is no such thing as cheating in real life

"In real life I cheat to gain any advantage I can. Society does not 'watch my back'. The end goal of life is not sportsmanship, it is to survive in the most beneficial way you can."

you sure do "cheat" but not all the time and not for any advantage. it may also be beneficial for you to cooperate and be sincere

This explains Serious

This explains 9/11

weak sauce. half-baked. left a bad aftertaste

a lack of moral fibre. nothing else.

lol raging kids ehheehiorehoaieheoijheoaije

can confirm

u are mixing up the functionality of having cheat-incidences/cheaters in a community/society with the reasons for some1 to cheat. those are different things, the cheaters don't do it in order to strengthen moral values, unity or whatever in the community. trying to explain it with these factors ain't the best approach imo. (though i saw u took other, better fiting ones as well.)

secondly, as sociology student i gotta state once again that the things the op mentioned probably don't actually present video-game sociology/psychology. the op was trying to apply some theoretical concept of the "classics" on the topic. durkheim was living in 19th century and didn't try to describe cheating in video games. neither merton nor the others. be cautious with what u bash guys, just because the theories might not be best to describe ingame behaviour it doesn't mean they're shit in general, or that they're all "modern" sociology has to offer.

ok - now back to topic. personally, i think cheating can be explained quite easily. i see like 2 sorts of majour benefits which guide the actual cheat-user: 1) the expected social recognition/a gain of social status within the games` community, 2) expected fun had while being able to do dem sick plays, and then maybe 3) finding out what it's like and 4) expecting some sort of learning effect (as stupid as it may sound. i for example often thought about how having a wallhack might help me to learn the structure of duelmaps better, by perceiving what movement options the opponent has instead of having to multitask-think about it and getting a good picture on how long it takes a player from A to B in relation to another distance i wanna travel in the meanwhile. i'm not saying it would really help, but that's not what matters to ppl anyway. they can only judge and act in accordance to what they have in their head, not any "objective" reality.)
another thing that alrdy was mentioned above is that the cheat-authors probably have other motives to write the code, and maybe have other motives for online cheating as well (i rather think that it just influences their use - cost preception though.)

i personally think the "we need deviance" part u wrote up there is pretty much not fiting here though. a game is usually defined by clear rules. people enter the game by taking over its defined goals and accepting the rules. in video games these rules might be unspoken - but the players actions re still ment to be dependent solely on the players actions. i don't think we need deviations to justify the rules, or strengthen the rule-consensus. perceiving cheaters can bring ppl together though, that's right.

actually think 1) is the main reason for cheating overall, and that it's caused by the extraordinairy importance of "being skilled" within video games. been writing a seminar-works about it if u're interested (not about cheating), but it's on german :x

agree with this guy 100%

can we swap it with the OP ?

play hard go pro ©

From having played vs many cheats I can say that the "way to cheating" goes like this:

1) pre-cheaters have an insanely dumbed down idea about the game.
2) They remain losing even though they are perfecting their stupid ideas about the game (aka they are beginning to aim better / move better, but they remain retarded in their decision making).
3.1) They cannot believe that they keep losing regardless of their effort they put into point 2.
3.2) They cannot understand how other people can beat them even though they have put a lot of effort into 2.
4) They assume that almost everyone who beats them has some sort of cheat. Or at least some kind of "strange advantage".
5) they start to cheat.

You can always spot cheats by their insane lack of imagination ingame.

Theres no external force making them cheat... it's their own limited thinking that makes them do it.

play cheat go PRO ?

cheating is okay

Very interesting topic, appreciate it for putting up. ggbfaeadadak

Reasons for cheating:

If you're a
no-life
nerdy
punkass
hamster-legged
dick-headed
deflated
sucker punched
deprived of love
duck faced
traumatized
goat loving
dumbass

whose father
was a lonely excavator
named J.CB
and mother
was the Creature
from Black Lagoon,

when you're not loved
or even tolerated
by anyone
because of the putrid aura of fail
that trails u,

when your family
is afraid
to open
the basement
where you're restrained
in fear
of rotting maggots
crawling out
thru the door
in feeble attempt
to escape
from
your blaoted corpse,

you resort to cheating.

I fully understand now what I did...

The only person I was paying attention to was myself


after all the damage... I now understood it

wtf................................. and i was only making it worse during that time...omg

everyone hates me here

please change my nick..

Hi!
As a (junior) sociologist I want to congratulate you on the article, Brainie!

I support a more mmm... open idea of interaction within or outside social borders. That is, I kind of understand more subjective than the objective view on the person interacting. Push to learn where the legitimate limits are, despite knowing where the legal ones are.

Hence, with lower control, more cheaters will appear.

"You are defined by what you have access to" - I'd say rather "by what you do with the limited resources at hand". I.e. if you have access to cheats, what you do with them - use them or not. We're talking about internalized acceptance of the game rules.

I'll just stop here, although I'd be happy to continue a sensible conversation on that topic. :)

Cheers!

/ quake player

Only losers cheat, can't understand why poeple do that.

What a load of crap.

There are socially outcasted insecure godless inept underachieving sad-ass fucking monkeyface faggot losers amongst us. As simple as that. What "the games want" has nothing to do with it.

"I didn't shoot that man, officer. My gun did it."

dark soul's players find this post goddamn appropriate