I feel the same. Go ahead and make new rulesets and try out new things, but keep the core game as it is and keep it free for everyone.

The current version of QL should not be relegated to being a bonus or extra gametype.

.

Keep it civil afro American

Even if classic remains free one or another will become more played and cause the death or oblivion of the other.

just tone down the exaggaration with the casulization ))


sure changes are fine for n3wbs.

All accounts created before joining steam get 1 year pro minimum )))

Of course if they do something like this then they can't announce it because everyone will be making aliases on aliases to sell to newbies after steam integration.

I'll just repeat what I said before: the gameplay is the only advantage Quake has. Effort should be focused on community and competitive features and especially proper match making (Just use Elo/TrueSkill. The hard work has already been done for you!). Difficult games can retain players, its already been done. Free to play games can be successful without locking content behind a paywall, it's already been done. Communicate to new players that this a serious, competitive game and not some simplistic shooter. Give them context - ladders, streams and proper video tutorials. The Steam release is a big opportunity, just have faith in the game and play to it's strengths.

Also put jamalz in charge tia

and especially proper match making (Just use Elo/TrueSkill. The hard work has already been done for you!)

Skill estimation is not the problem for matchmaking. QL already has that. The hard work is with the actual match making : building the right groups of players depending on their location/pings, gametype preferences and skill... and integrating that in QL's terrible infrastructure.

I believe this it's worth spending money on a contractor to get it done though.

That's a good point. I guess the lack of players makes it harder too.

Well the system probably wouldn't be harder to build but it would certainly make worse groups with less players.

Skill estimation is the problem, actually. I'm sure that we would laugh if we could see the list of all the players with a 999 skillrating. Most of these statswhores are probably below average tier 4 players.

with matchmaking this issue would iron itself out - no way to manually join/fabricate better team.

<sponge> i recommend wait and giving it an honest shot, and not caring about what quake is supposed to be or isn't supposed to be

You just eat it and don't bother with what's in it.

The problem is, id/bethesda after 6+ years of quakelive, they're still trying to do things on the cheap. Time and time again they've shown they'd rather annoy users into buying a subscription, than offer something players would value in order to win their money. I don't see this situation as any different. You despise that casual gameset and want your beloved "classic" set? Fuck you, pay up. It was quite surprising when they finally opened up unrestricted private/pro servers for standard users. But that may just be moot if the real gameplay becomes sub only.

Now I'm certainly not against subscription/pay model, heck, I still say they should do away with F2P entirely for a bit. $5-$10 "entry fee", ~$25 for pro sub. But as it is now, they need to offer more for $36/yr than what they do. No ranking system, ladders, leagues, tourneys (I'm talking about on site solutions), global chat system, no way to leave messages for another player? No. They suckered me into a subscription once because I was annoyed, but not again until there's some actual effort on their part.

Edit: And of course a reliable anticheat.

pay the cheap cost you garbage picking poor ass muppets....

nah

Copy paste from my post on a different QL forum ( 4sg )

Those were my initial thoughts Mango...
But look at the image from IRC of Sponge talking. Not even those two would risk letting a troll rumour like this get out of control. Sponge comes close to confirming it in his statements... Although that's obviously not a confirmation, if this was a true troll rumour they would have come out putting it to rest considering the avalanche of outrage it's causing.
Surely those two notice the boiling hot hate that is pouring out of the online community.

NinjaMango wrote:
No one in their right mind would contemplate doing this.

Yeah, that's right... but have you seen the kind of dumb opinions Sponge has on Quake's gameplay? Neither Sponge nor Syncerror plays at a high level or has any real idea of the needs of high level players.

@Sponge wrote:
I recommend wait and giving it an honest shot, and not caring about what Quake is supposed to be or isn't supposed to be.

... with dumb opinions like that, how can you make any assumptions about what these two think about Quake Live?
These two have a long history of terrible ideas for Quake. Syncerror isn't a bad guy, and I have alot of sympathy for him regarding his position in id, being stuck between a rock and a hardplace. At my current job I'm stuck in a similar position, having to deal with deeply rooted issues in 15 year old legacy code, written by people who fucked off from the company long ago. Not being given the resources and time necessary for overhauls to the product. Clueless management who aren't interested in allocating a budget for redeveloping the product to meet the needs of a new market etc etc etc.
So I feel his pain in ways.
But that's no reason to do things like this.
They've never demonstrated any real understanding of why Quake is failing. The best you get from the community is this mantra of "The game is too hard for noobs"... ( looks like they took this one too literally. ) Yes, that is true.... but many games are hard for noobs... the difference is whether or not you can appeal to people to enjoy the game while they learn.
Quake3 didn't have this issue on release because 90% of players were noobs. The reason they were playing was because it was an amazing looking game, and it was well marketed... a modernized Q3 with QL infrastructure would be MORE suited to today's market than it was back in 1999 lol, with shit like TF2 and CS being so huge.
The problem was always with APPEAL. The average person does not want to persevere with a 15 year old game. Just the facts.
Make the game look and feel good to compete with other titles that have a much better visceral experience, and you'll begin reeling in new players. ( yes, and I understand picmip, this, that, cfgs, bla bla bla bla.... but those are optional now, and the game looks like shit whether you're using default cfg or tox.cfg )
Tbh, I have zero faith in id not to f*ck this one up completely. I used to defend them years ago regarding their decisions in QL. But they've done nothing to keep my faith. They've disappointed again and again with poor decisions, lack of resources, poor management... etc.
Why expect them not to f*ck it up now?

CoD is already available for retards to play. And if I feel like playing a dead dumbed-down FPS with a worldwide community of 12 players, there's already Warsow for that. Why on earth would I want to experience both at once?
I cancelled my subscription to QL last year.
If anything from that document comes to pass in QL, I'll legitimately uninstall. Never play again, renounce it all and curse the game to my dying day.

and:


We already have to put up with servers split between top level players and tier3 bads ruining things as is. You can't even get a pub CA game as is without it being a battle of who's anchors are heavier. let alone pub TDM/CTF being dead as the dodo. With these changes you'll need to play CoD CTF to get a game.
Not to mention all the empty servers id already runs taxing machine resources that are obviously already overloaded on all Australian servers. lmao.
Also, it's just more proof that id have no f*cking clue about what the playerbase actually wants. Every update just seems to further alienate anyone who actually cares about Quake in lieu of appeasing an influx of noobs that never actually arrives.


Sums my thoughts up.

Edit: this should be reply to comment 8 - what's happened here?


@Sponge wrote:
I recommend waiting and giving it an honest shot, and not caring about what Quake is supposed to be or isn't supposed to be.

** NOT CARING**???!!!

kinda sums it up - doesn't it?

You can already see the inevitable persecution complex forming. We are just old unreasonable diehards who will complain no matter what. No point in listening to us.

We are also the people who've been subscribers for years straight.
We constitute the only loyal market Quake has, so it'd be pretty naive for developers not to take our concerns onboard. As I said above:
...further alienate anyone who actually cares about Quake in lieu of appeasing an influx of noobs that never actually arrives.

What QL 'needs' in order to get new players is a complete overhaul. Something a bit beyond the scope of what they're currently able/willing to do. There is no problem with QL's gameplay. It only becomes an issue when one player has mastered it and the other hasn't.

I agree.

I agree totally with Teen Queen here

It's time to rally the troops - combine our strength
and maybe.. just maybe we can stop this fiasco!

WHY do this? - make it the 'same' as all the other games
and at a time when the competitive shooter is threatening to make a comeback?

Reborn/Reflex/Toxikk and UT looming on the horizon - id are just opening the door right up to them.
UT - WILL be made - with possibly a tour (they must be laughing so hard right now) the others are still doubtful at this stage.

When id announced Quake on steam - I hoped they had jumped the queue for once - got one step ahead and a hold of the market... but no

I for one don't want the changes - but I dont mind paying to play (I always have)

However - to reduce 'classic' Quake - to no more than a 'mod' is disgusting and really shows you their contempt for us..
players who have stuck it out for 15 years. Where are the new generation to come from with this format?

I always think of Quake in terms of duel. So far it looks like that may be possible - but what is it going to do to the likes of FFA and CA?
What's going to happen to that 'classic' player-base?


Like I say - I'm not in favour of this mess - but after talking it over - some kind of compromise would be a split-screen start page,
new easy Quake / classic Quake
(it's as simple as that) allowing both types to be played - and with descriptions beside them.

will this happen? probably not, if id want to use their servers for QL 2.0
(of course that's why they want us to pay)

I don't know what else we can do to get our feelings across? - we need the support of someone with some clout!
Big name player or someone?
What does John Carmack think of what they're doing with his game? Has anyone tweeted him?

If starting some kind of petition would help to stop the rot - then we should do that..
and take it waaay above syncerror - letter zenimax and Bethesda

any ideas?

I've also always played. So I have no problem there.
And don't listen to Carmack about gameplay decisions. He considers COD to be the best online FPS ever made. All the gameplay elements that make Quake good were legacy bugs from the earliest days of the engine that the competitive community has adopted.

Source on Carmack statement please.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/07/id-soft...l-of-duty/

I think you need to go back to school. In that article he doesn't even come remotely close to saying "Call of Duty is the best online FPS ever made." Hell, he doesn't even come close to saying it's a good game other than it sold a lot so obviously people are having FUN with it.

maybe I linked to the wrong article. I posted that from my phone on the train.
I'll look for the proper one later.
Anyway, settle down... the point is that if you look at Carmack's gaming sensibilities. Pro-level Quake is not something he even remotely cares about.

Edit: I may have been a bit hasty with saying "Carmack says... best... " and so on, the general idea was just to illustrate that his views on the subject aren't the least bit aligned with the general consensus here on esr.

understood - it's no problem :o)

my only reason for mentioning him was to try and get someone heavyweight on board.. maybe stir things up a little back at id before this goes any further.

(even although now, he has no say in what happens)
(and YES, I know about the court case)

wishful thinking

You'd need Romero for that, not Carmack. ;)

"the general idea was just to illustrate that his views on the subject aren't the least bit aligned with the general consensus here on esr. "

he is just saying that people keep buying cod and that they therefore should enjoy it (he just thinks that there is a correlation) and that a popular game does not necessarily need to be a bad game.

and you relate those statements to carmack having a different opinion than the esr community though he does not say anything about the quake topic.

lol why does he think cod is good

even technically it tanks, the netcode is awful and anyone you encounter can have a 100~500ms advantage/disadvantage even on normal ping

just because people keep buying it and that therefore the must enjoy it, otherwise they would not spend any money on it.

>Like I say - I'm not in favour of this mess - but after talking it over - some kind of compromise would be a split-screen start page,
new easy Quake / classic Quake


CS:GO has the casual mode/competitive mode buttons on the start screen. It doesn't do the casual mode very well, it just throws you into a 20 slot server and forces you to spawn with certain items instead of having to buy them.

Some more customization for the casual mode would make it a lot more fun for the casual players, I have no clue why so many people play the casual mode in CS its just a clusterfuck

Are you implying you know what the new default ruleset will be? :D

- just read the other thread X_x guess that'll be my own new ruleset

d'oh

video was meant for a different thread
ignore :)

I say that players who have been playing quake for 5+years should be granted the classic quake.

Because as you have stated, its why those people who have been playing foe many years are still around.

Something needs to be given back to those loyal players

( accounts made in 2008/2009 for quakelive + anybody who has been proof that they have recently switch in the last year or so from Q3 )

Sounds like a lovely gesture, but I am sure that won't happen. Maybe if, the steam launch flops (which I hope it doesn't) they will think of that.

So they basically trying to get rid of us. No hardcore players, no constant moaning about the game. Pure win for id software

Enjoy quake while you can (c) me

I don't even want to launch it anymore.

Not really a pure win because then Quake will have 0 players. Have fun with your 1 month of Steam influx players. They'll have the attention span of someone with Asperger's and move the fuck on. Grats id Software, putting sponge and Syncerror in charge of one of your most storied and reputable IP's is going to backfire so hard you'll never recover.

I thought Steam was going to put Quake Live in the spotlight for a while, but according to the developers it'll instead put "new" Quake Live in the spotlight . . . and maybe some of that warm light will trickle into "classic" modes like duel, TDM, and CTF. However, that seems unlikely if the new players--who're enquiring because it's a free game--can't even access these 'classic' modes because they're behind a pay-wall! In the unlikely event that a new player does pay to experience 'classic' Quake Live what's to keep the player playing that doesn't already exist?

As far as we, the general Quake Live community know, there are no new features planned that will help retain new Quake Live players who venture into 'classic' modes. It's still the same, unexplained, trial-and-error, get-bashed-by-2000-elo-players game as it is now. Only, it's now potentially hidden behind a pay-wall.

It just seems like they're trying to hide Quake Live, instead of facilitating it. This new rule-set is simply not needed, nor is it welcomed by (I hope) the majority of Quake Live players. There is no reason to 'modernise' the game-play, because game-play can't become outdated. What was fun then can still be fun today. What needs changing is the infrastructure that surrounds the game-play, because that does and has become outdated.

All the best infrastructure for Quake Live exists outside of Quake Live so that new players (and some existing players) never even know about it. This is unfortunate. If the Quake Live developers could implement such features into Quake Live as those found in QLRanks, ExtraQL, FaceIT and whatnot the user experience would be much better!

Then get a proper matchmaking system . . . and introduce a Hoony-esque mode for beginner duellers, because it creates a perfect environment to learn what you're doing wrong--as soon as a fatal error is made the map's reset and you get another go. It eliminates the frustrating feeling of being spawn-fragged for ten minutes! I've been playing duels where the first to one frag wins with duellers below my skill-level and they love it, but it's not ideal. A proper hoony-esque mode would be better, but Syncerror promised the CPM community that he wouldn't create a hooney-esque mode?

I was hoping the pre-Steam update would give us infrastructure similar to what was outlined in this post: http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php...is-needed.

I hoped the pre-Steam update would improve Quake Live somehow, but it just seems to neglect Quake Live and shove new Quake Live into people's faces . . .

"Hoony-esque mode for beginner duellers"

I've been saying this for years. In Hoony Mode you can properly begin to learn the initial spawns, things you're supposed to do depending on the spawn you get, if you encounter a more skilled player and get raped, the final score will be 5 to 0, not 34 to -5, and it will also end very quickly, making waiting in queue less boring. It's mad fun, btw.

I have no idea why sync promised that to the cpm staff, but he should reconsider it and talk to them. I bet that those 17 cpm players wouldn't be so mad to see HM in QL.

tbh, to me, that just sounds so weird, the cpma devs have no problem with sync using their netcode, bug fixes, gameplay fixes (eg double jumps, lower hitscan damage, faster rockets), but they draw the line at hoonymode, some random side project of a single dev?

If the code is available, since it's a derivative work of idTech 3 it must be GPL'd. And that is a problem, because if they used that code, they would have to publish the entire QL source code, and never license it to anyone anymore. :)

Just stop with your f2p model, make the game like 20 bucks, with some massive promotional discount at release, everything available from the get-go, rename classic to ranked or something, decrease the gap between the rulesets, boom done.

Essentially: copy the CG:GO model

lol

If this shit gets done, "classic" gameplay should we FREE. This is basic. If id doesnt get it they need to commit suicide (which is what they are doing by releasing this steamIng piece of shit).
Also it needs to be stated CLEARLY that "classic gameplay" is ACTUAL REAL QUAKE and the new newbie mode is that, "newbie mode" literally.
You have to at least make newbies fascinate about the objective superiority of actual Quake players.

Also, and again, if id had 2 brain cells they would realize the problem here is not having a functional matchmaking.

This could be a counter-measure. Any changes will be met with hostility. 'Leak' something ridiculous and terrible, and then do the thing you were ACTUALLY going to do all along. The existing community then feels like they were heard, and the minor changes happen without the griping on release day. The COD thing just wouldn't work. Think about it. How would it work on any of the maps? The layout of the mappool just wouldn't support it or make it any fun even as a COD clone. The 'leaked' rumors were neither confirmed or denied, it was simply suggested to give the changes coming with the steam release ' a chance'.

The change log vaguely implies that "classic" mode will be only available for subscribers.

You won't need to pay to join a vql game, if that's what you're implying there. Just like you don't need to be a subscriber to join a premium map/gametype currently.

This update would be the definitive proof of misconception by the devs (our game isn't popular because it is too difficult), but well, I've already wrote enough useless posts about QL and what could be done, so I won't go further.

Another big thing I'd like to mention is that calling it "classic" or "competitive" is in a way wrong, since the quake we know and love is just that - QUAKE.

Not casual quake, not beginner friendly quake - that "new quake" needs a new name, not the old one. The old one has a name and was played for well over a decade.

What really drives me up the wall is calling it competitive, just for the sake of charging for it.

"If you're a serious/competitive player, you won't mind paying for the game" - this may ring true for the maps and gametypes and whatnot, but covering the FUN game that we all like behind the veil of competitiveness just to enforce it being payable is a logical fallacy.

Who determines what's fun and entertaining and what not? I for one had, have and will continue to have immense fun playing quake. So suddenly someone decides to label my fun game as competitive and it gets charged?

What for, it was FUN ALL ALONG, don't make me play another game because you consider it more fun.

Added this bit of info in main post/reasons

Now this is what I would consider basically terrorism

I'm for different names too:

classic - awesome
new ruleset - derp
PQL - screwy

\cv ruleset awesome ftw

If this happens, they have to call the normal Quake QUAKE mode, and the new newbie mode NOOB mode. The newbies must UNDERSTAND that they are INFERIOR. I want them to feel inferior because they are, I want them to be mad that they cannot enter real Quake without getting destroyed, and I want them to realize what they praise as pro-gramers on their generation are shitty and lack any talent compared to any random high skilled Quake player. Otherwise we will lose perspective. The future generations must not forget that once, a FPS game was insanely hard to be high skilled at. I want them to understand that is embarrassing to keep praising pros at the easy shitty games and I want them to know that deep inside, all that money and fame belongs to true Quake talent. I want their suffering and their pain for ruining arena games with their shitty console COD addiction and their shitty dumbed down no effort culture.

"Feel free to add suggestions and share this thread around to get as much support as possible, instead of bitching about changes maybe we can try reasoning with the devs" (c) Teen Queen

^^

Exectly the same holds for pql. Pql clan arena servers used to be filled with people, because of its high paced nature. Now people have to wait to get a 4v4 going on one server.
The pay wall of death :(

Its a sad hard time. Hopefully will be fixed soon.

Sadly not enough options for standard players. Let new players select the difficulty levels. I dunno about more experienced players, but if the game is fun enough, and people live for more than 1 second, then they will play on. Then more will continue to join..

Again As I said on quakelive forums, its about player retention for Steam player counts. If they launch it and the whole Quakelive is in decline, or lowly populated, then its not going to look an appetising purchase.....

CS-GO (180,453) In-Game
Garysmod (50,220) In-Game
Borderlands2 (13,224) In-Game
Borderlands (782) In-Game
QuakeLive (__,__) In-Game !!

You know, I imagine myself pleading with id to make the smart thing and not completely alienate the community that stood by them for ten years, that would still be their core userbase and make everyone they know try QL 2.0.

But... that is the only thing that makes sense. You just don't throw something that you have and that has had so much resilience over the years to make a cheap attempt at grabbing new players. You don't do that unless you're dumbstruck why Shootmania didn't capture the Quake audience.

There's just no way oldschool Quakers coming back into the scene who don't see much point in QL anyway will pay for a subscription just to play a normal game. Nor will any of them appreciate playing a cheap imitation of games they consider dumbed-down.

If you want to grab new players, you do it on top of offering what kept Quake alive for all those years. That would be the only way.

I don't think even this trick would work, it just wouldn't offer much over CoD or Halo to newbies. It wouldn't even do well at transitioning them to actual Quake if it did. An it's foolish to do it without trying out what's obvious - matchmaking, free freezetag or a point-system to earn subscriptions or something.

But all that doesn't matter. You didn't listen to us about matchmaking and other options for years. We may have bitched, but we stood by you for all those years because you were our best option. If this goes through, you're just not, not anymore.

And for the first time in perhaps eight years, I'll be recommending other games, like one of the upcoming deathmatch shooters or oldschool Q3A + CPMA to any friends that want to play deathmatch.

So go ahead and do that patch if you think that's your best shot. Because if you think it is, maybe we ARE better off looking for our options elsewhere.

If they really ruin Quake, someone should do a nicely packed one-click-go client with Q3A+CPMA with everything nicely bundled on it, fuck the laws, this is an emergency state.

No need to do anything illegal:
- Q3A on Steam is cheaper than 1 year QL pro, and never expires :)
- Another option, completely free - ioquake3 + community made maps and other assets, like Open Arena.
Then just add that easy-installer, and a central web site for user accounts, stats, browser etc.

No one is going to pay for Q3A, it has to be f2p

great post. [+]

creating a more easy quake for the casual steam peoples, and killing off the current community...

thats real smart :>

you only play ca anyway, casual.

i'd play some freezetag if it wasnt dead from the getgo ;p

TOTALLY AGREE !!

Its getting all steamed up in here, I can't see many full servers wtf!

yes, please bring rulesets for

> vql and

> ql2.0

but keep it F2P! We'll see what comes up more popular.

I'll gladly pay for pro, if the game is active so I can play every now and then when I feel like it. What worries me is if there will be enough players in classic when it's behind a paywall for it to be worth paying for.

Really bad move having classic behind a paywall imo and it might just kill off the quake I know :/

Dividing the community with this classic and new shit mod...amazing... :/

12 mods in QL now, I still see no real signs of a grossly divided community.

oh, and pql too..

Really? 2 out of 10 players play mods with items, while the rest do not.